The right-wing militia movement as anti-liberty and collectivist : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

Here's a cool press release from 1997 on the right-wing militia movement...

from Essay

Timothy McVeigh brought destruction on Oklahoma City because he was motivated, not by the "extremist" ideology of individual liberty, as both the left and the right claim, but by the antithesis of indvidualism: collectivism. This demands that the individual be sacrificed for the welfare of some group. The "right-wing" militia movement is similarly motivated  not to protect an individual's rights, but to impose its own group's whims on others through physical force.

Goal of the Oklahoma Bombers and the Militias: Sacrificing the Individual to the Whims of a Group

Robert W. Tracinski

Terry Nichols is currently on trial as an accomplice to the truck bombing that killed 168 people two years ago in Oklahoma City. As in the trial of Timothy McVeigh, who was sentenced to death for his role in the bombing, many people are still asking: What could motivate a person to commit such a horrific crime?

There are two conventional answers. Many on the left claim that Nichols and McVeigh were driven by an "extremist" ideology of individual liberty. This was the charge used two years ago to discredit the Republican Revolution, on the grounds that the Republicans' "anti-government" rhetoric "created the climate" for the Oklahoma City bombing. One reporter showed the lingering effects of this charge on Monday when he claimed that McVeigh's trial raised the issue of "the size and role of government." In defense, many others respond that there is no broader significance to McVeigh's actions, that he was simply an isolated madman driven less by ideology than by some inexplicable desire to lash out against the world.

The facts, however, do not support either explanation. The evidence indicates that Nichols and McVeigh were motivated by an ideology  the same ideology that drives the militia movement, which shares his desire for a campaign of violence against the federal government. This is not, however, an ideology of individualism, but its antithesis: an ideology that demands the sacrifice of the individual for the sake of some collective.

The kind of ideas that inspired Nichols and McVeigh can be judged from The Turner Diaries, a novel that McVeigh disseminated and quoted favorably in letters to his sister. The novel describes a fictional bombing campaign against federal buildings that precipitates the overthrow of the government by racist partisans. Those who oppose the racist rebellion are hanged en masse from lampposts. This novel clearly does not call for a defense of individual rights, but instead advocates a racist reign of terror. The novel's ideology represents, not individualism, but collectivism; it is based on the premise that individual lives are defined by and are subordinated to some racial group. These ideas are inspired, not by the Founding Fathers, but by the Nazi Party.

The militias, with whom Nichols and McVeigh clearly sympathized, advocate a similar version of collectivism. This is reflected in the justifying fantasies of the militia movement  the conspiracy theories that posit one group, usually white Christians, as being under attack by a sinister cabal of foreigners or Jewish bankers. Despite their pious invocations of the Founding Fathers, it is not the rights of the individual that these groups want to protect, but the "right" of their own group to impose its whims by force. The most blatant examples of the militia movement's goals are the "Freemen" in Montana, who felt they had the "right" to threaten local officials and forge checks, and members of the "Republic of Texas," who harassed enemies by filing false liens against their property. If such groups complain about the coercive power of the federal government, it is only because they resent the competition.

This contempt for individual rights is what made the Oklahoma City bombing possible. Only those who believe that the individual must be sacrificed to the group can justify to themselves the murder of innocent people. To such a mentality, the life of one individual  or 168 of them  is of no value.

It is true that government is encroaching on individual freedom. But a genuine individualist movement would recognize the one absolute principle of individual rights: the evil of any initiation of force. It would recognize the need to protect freedom, not by bombings or mob violence, but by a rationally defined, objective code of laws. An individualist movement would crusade to limit government to this task, not to dismantle it to make way for a fascist takeover. Such a movement would require a philosophy that rejects the sacrifice of the individual to any group, whether it is the white race or the "public interest."

In the current environment, the only alternative that some people can imagine to the increasing encroachment on individual rights by the government is the equal encroachment on individual rights by their own armed gangs. The Oklahoma City bombing is a sign of the desperate need for the real alternative: a philosophy of individualism.

Robert W. Tracinski is the editor of The Intellectual Activist and a senior writer for the Ayn Rand Institute in Marina del Rey, California

-- eve (, July 26, 2000



I thought I smelled Ayn Rand in there, with the collectivism reference...not that it's a bad thing.

I suspect a lot of us have been exposed to the philosophies of some of these organizations more than we normally would, simply by participating in this forum or observing the writings at EZBOARD. Personally, I have a hard time understanding why these folks are considered Patriots. IMO, they typically interpret the laws, constitution, and even the Bible to suit their own desires.

I watched a movie several weeks ago regarding one of the members of the Posse Commitatus. Forgive my misspelling on that one. I'd never heard of this group before. I think he was sent to jail for income-tax evasion. Once released, he learned that his wife had paid the taxes on their home. He kicked her out. This was his wife of 20-something years, mother to their two children. The rest of the group wasn't interested in his racist leanings, but he spoke often and loudly at the meetings. In other words, he wasn't containable as a voice for the group.

It was a sad movie to watch. The basic theme of it all revolved around a man who wanted society to bend to HIS whims, and if it didn't, violence was his recourse.

-- Anita (, July 26, 2000.


.....Let's not forget that McVeigh was run off from the only militia meeting he ever attended. I know some militia types, and this doesn't ring true for any that I know. What was your point of posting this three year old article?

.....Also; the militia does not advocate violence against innocents, as the author contends; this author clearly wishes to smear the name of the militia with the guilt by association tactic that has been used repeatedly by the domestic enemies of our republic.

.....McVeigh was known to stay at an Oklahoma compound of racists called "Elohim City" which was established and run by one Robert Millar along with second in command Dennis Mahon; both of these individuals, during the trial of Carol Howe, an ATF informant, had to admit, under oath, that they were on the government payroll for many years prior to establishing this compound. Clearly, they were agents provacatuer for the government; and just as clearly were working for the leftist ideology that would love the populace to believe the excrement put forth in this article as a counter to the information being brought forth by the militia today.

.....How can you live in "Militiagan" and not know better than to believe an article of this nature? You're smarter than this, eve.


.....Carol Howe was on trial for doing as she was told by the ATF and infiltrating the "Elohim City" compound and reporting the fact that the bombing was coming, along with the date of said bombing. When her warnings went unheeded, she had gone over her "handler's" head with the information, then was given criminal charges as a thank you for the "work" she had done for the ATF. Lucky for her, she kept good documentation, and after her trial, it took the jury only 90 minutes to acquit, and signal clearly that she was set up by the ATF. Care to venture a guess as to why this didn't show up as national news?

-- Patrick (, July 26, 2000.

Mr. Henry,

You do your "cause" little good. The DEAD in Oklahoma City will never be forgotten and attempts to shift the blame from the Lunatic Fringers who were convicted to some "conspiracy" will fail. The JURY knew better.

The Militia movement contains many very well meaning people who demonstrated their allegiance to the US and helped the FBI in the days before 1/1/2000.

We will never return to the agrarian society of the days of the FOUNDERS. We must now deal with governing a Nation of over 265,000,000 and even harder for people like Mr. Henry and Mc Veigh: LIVING WITH THEM.

-- cpr (, July 27, 2000.

Hi Patrick,

You have made the following statement that bothers me somewhat.

.....Also; the militia does not advocate violence against innocents

Who will decide who is an innocent? Personally, I have a problem with militias advocating violence against ANYONE! Actually, I have a problem with militias in general. Under close scrutiny most militia groups are little more than power bases for egotistical wannabes that never found a way to work within the system. When groups like these are allowed to take unsanctioned action then we sink to the level of a third world banana republic. Id rather arm the Boy Scouts.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 27, 2000.


.....First of all, my name is not Mr. Henry so you may dispense with the condescension. I made no attempt whatsoever to shift blame; I agree that McVeigh should be executed for his role, along with any others involved that may still be at large, (does the name Andreas Straussmeir mean anything to you?). Perhaps the reason you have so much flaming with some posters on the board is due to your inability to read what was posted, while you then proceed to respond to what it was you thought you read, and in capital letters, no less. Are you afraid I wouldnt hear you or just playing for the audience? At any rate, my assertions were that these people were not in the militia, but I agree they were in the true lunatic fringe.

.....Secondly, when you say I try shift blame to a conspiracy you are again way off the mark; this is court-documented testimony I was referring to, not theory as you propose. Do you have some sort of agenda here?

.....Lastly, I found your third paragraph unintelligible, at best. I really cant respond to things that make zero sense. BTW... I have no cause as you suggest.

Hello, Ra...

.....I guess I was responding specifically to this statement in the article...

Only those who believe that the individual must be sacrificed to the group can justify to themselves the murder of innocent people

.....I agree with you implicitly; however, after listening to radio shows from the militia since around 1993, I can say that not once did I hear them advocate violence against anyone, innocent or otherwise. The only thing they truly advocate is the restoration of constitutional principles, and they have always said that whoever fires the first shot will lose. I havent had personal contact with militia members, other than those that have a national reputation via their radio programs, and contrary to the picture painted by the establishment media, they are not a bunch of frothing lunatics They do not wish to shove their views down anyones throats or establish a theocracy, as has been alleged, or any other such nonsense, but simply want the rights guaranteed under the constitution and bill of rights to be restored, not only for themselves, but for us all, along with our posterity.

.....I also agree, that when they turn into power bases of the disenfranchised that they are not what the militia was meant to be, but that statement could just as easily describe some of the activities of the rogue elements within our governmental system today. In Ohio, we have codified into law that any male between 17 and 67 is in the unorganized milita; as opposed to the organized militia, which is under direct control of the governor. Neither of which is permitted unsanctioned, unilateral action.

-- Patrick (, July 27, 2000.

Thanks for your intelligent introspective Patrick. Unlike you, I have had the dubious pleasure of interacting with militia groups, in Michigan and Texas. I shouldnt pick on them by accusing the leaders of being Napoleonic, for this trait can be found in just about ANY organized special interest group. I live in the land of legislation, voted in and approved by the people, only to die a slow death at the 9th Court of Appeals or some such other venue. When this takes place a strong message is sent that there is no system and your vote is basically meaningless. To me, this just demands action on the part of militia groups for they will justify their response as the only valid tool of the majority. Ive seen the mindset of militia leaders and they are just waiting for the right situation to arise and it will, sooner or later. When the voice of the people will not be heard than loud explosions will. Im not up on a soapbox here just giving my opinion.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 27, 2000.


.....Again, I can't disagree with anything you've said; let's hope that something happens that will turn both antagonists, the .gov and the dissenters, back to a path of mutual respect. I hold no illusion of that happening though, as the two are certainly diametrically opposed.

-- (, July 27, 2000.


.....Banged on the enter button before typing in my handle...

-- Patrick (, July 27, 2000.

To the top.

I like watching Patrick eat ceeper's lunch.

-- I'm (Just@Peaceloving.grandma), July 27, 2000.


.....I think he was hit and run...

-- Patrick (, July 27, 2000.

Thanks for your input, y'all; I'm sorry my response was delayed. Alas; sometimes I spread myself too thin with the fora and my "other life." :)


Yep -- ol' A.R. is floatin' around in there -- indirectly, anyway. You know, it is interesting you picked up on the collectivist thing. I've read so much of her stuff that I can see, almost at a glance sometimes, when something is written from her viewpoint. And it's not just from the principles espoused; there's a whole slew of characteristic words and phrases that may tend to come up that'll many times tip me off right away.

By posting this, I was hoping to attract more folks who had direct experience with these groups, although Patrick and Ra seem to know a lot about them. I might post this at EZ; I have a feeling that the response may be more heated over there -- but that's fine. I have to be careful with the number of threads I start, though; sometimes it's more than I can keep up with; then I just end up getting overwhelmed and frustrated.

The movie sounded pretty depressing; that guy seems like a real nut case.


I think the author's intent was to focus on those groups with which McVeigh sympathized. But I think he did go too far in some of his rhetoric, which might very well lead a reader to think that he sees them all as cut from the same cloth. That was unfortunate, and I wish this aspect of the essay had been clarified. And thanks for sharing your knowledge on this.

And I plead ignorance with respect to the inner workings of the militia groups; so my apologies to the extent that some were, by implication, mischaracterized by the author's broad brush strokes.


Thanks for your sharing your experience and insight. It's fascinating to know that you were right in there with 'em. If you get the time, I'd like to know more about your experiences.


I appreciate the fact about the militia movement and the FBI, but I think your comment lumping Patrick with McVeigh was really off base and uncalled for.

-- eve (, July 28, 2000.

Eve, I hope I didnt leave you with the impression that there was any personal activity on my part in militia groups. While living in Michigan I had a Brother-in-law that was extremely active in the militia and he had a big mouth. I wouldnt trust this fool to guard my dog, let alone my freedom. During my years in Texas, I employed some good old boys on my drilling rigs that were involved in some sort of loose knit militia group. These morons were all in the National Guard and were gun freaks (speed freaks too). I may be mistakenly stereotyping militia members based on this collection of misfits but that was my only look at these folks. Eve, I'm sure you remember Houghton Lake. That area was a hotbed of militia activity in the late 60s.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 28, 2000.

Ra, I'm sorry that I misread your post. Obviously "interacting with" the groups doesn't imply you're a member. Thanks for sharing your interesting experiences, though.

But I'll tell ya -- here's an area where my naivete really shows. My recall about the militia in Michigan is very hazy. Even when the Oklahoma bombing occurred, I didn't read very much about the Michigan Militia. I guess I never had much of an interest in learning about it, although I do recall being fascinated by the militia going up to help protect a family who was losing their Y2K property on an island in the area. And I remember feeling proud of the militia -- at least in that context. But I don't recall the outcome; I wonder what happened to the family.

Still, my naievete about the facts of militias notwithstanding, I'm confident about siding with the author to the extent his ideas and assumptions in the essay apply to any given individual or group -- not just militia groups. Really, the principles behind the essay are universal; and that's the deeper reason why I posted it.

-- eve (, July 28, 2000.


.....Thank you for the kind words; you're always very sweet.

-- Patrick (, July 28, 2000.

Eve, the family you refer to was the Stitts and the island was Bois Blanc (near Mackinaw). The militia in question was headed-up by a Jim Jones clone by the name of Norm something-or-another. They were not even part of the Michigan Militia as they had been asked to leave a few years prior. I took the time to read all of the facts and the Stitts were lowlifes and the good folks of the island shooed them away. When push came to shove, Norm and his band of motley mutants slithered away into the sunset. The so-called plight of the Stitts was brought to the old TB2000 forum by that clever little shill, Stan Faryna (SP). Just another perfect example of how one person (Stan) can make a snake look like a saint. Pure BS.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 28, 2000.


.....The Norm you speak of is Norm Olsen; I don't think the militia allowed him to speak for them, as he was, as you have implied, extreme to a fault. I had heard some of the Stitt story, and believe they brought the trouble upon themselves, as have many in the "patriot" movement, by allowing themselves to be led around by mutants and no-nothings. People need to learn how to validate information prior to acting on it, and calculate the risks involved when they take certain actions; but I guess we're talking about humans here, aren't we? In my experience, most are too lazy to crack a book, much less educate themselves and therefore become "armed" with knowledge, life's greatest ammo.

-- Patrick (, July 28, 2000.

10-4 to that Patrickhave your good self a great weekend!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 28, 2000.

Thanks, Ra!

.....You do the same! Me? I'll be working on installing more logs in the house; I have one more order coming in in two weeks and that will be enough to finish up.

-- Patrick (, July 28, 2000.

Ra and Patrick,

Thank you both for your interesting and informative lessons in Militia 101.

-- eve (, July 30, 2000.

eve, you really are a very sweet girl. I read most of your posts, including the chess games. You are so bright, it's hard to figure out how you became a doom zombie. If you're going to Vegas, I'd like to meet you to talk about this.

-- cpr (, July 30, 2000.

1. EVE *IS* a nice person who came out of the Doom mode long before others.

2. I would never go to Las Vegas SO............AGAIN,,,THIS IS NOT ME.

3. After the 'big text' nonsense which followed the posting of many nonsense threads, is somone deliberately trying to bury the anti-Doom Zoid threads?

eve, you really are a very sweet girl. I read most of your posts, including the chess games. You are so bright, it's hard to figure out how you became a doom zombie. If you're going to Vegas, I'd like to meet you to talk about this. -- cpr (, July 30, 2000.

-- cpr (, July 31, 2000.

I did NOT post that last message. To the FUCKING MORON who is imitating me,,,buy a CLUE at the CLUE FARM asswipe. Keep burying my threads JERKWAD. I've got a MILLION of them on file and a HARD COPY off shore. IDIOT!! You CANNOT stop me by insulting eve SHE is my token memette.

Eve, do you like Wayne Newton? Front row center tickets.

-- cpr (, August 01, 2000.

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