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Was Freud a Minivan or S.U.V. Kind of Guy?

By KEITH BRADSHER

DETROIT, July 16 -- Of all the mysteries facing automakers in recent years, few have been so engrossing as how families choose between minivans and sport utility vehicles.

To look at them by median income, age, occupation, family size or where they live, people who buy minivans and people who buy sport utilities look fairly similar, the automakers' research has found. The typical minivan or sport utility purchaser is most often a fairly affluent married couple in their 40's with children. And while minivans are sometimes labeled "mom-mobiles," the principal drivers of minivans, like sport utility vehicles, are actually a little more likely to be men than women.

Yet a growing body of research by automakers is finding that buyers of these two kinds of vehicles are very different psychologically. Sport utility buyers tend to be more restless, more sybaritic, less social people who are "self-oriented," to use the automakers' words, and who have strong conscious or subconscious fears of crime. Minivan buyers tend to be more self-confident and more "other-oriented" -- more involved with family, friends and their communities.

Automakers have spent lavishly over the last several years to examine these customers' deeper urges. The automakers find the research persuasive enough that it is affecting the way automobiles are designed and advertised.

While the psychological research is closely guarded by the automakers, executives are willing to discuss some details. For example, minivan buyers tend to be more comfortable than sport utility buyers with being married; sport utility buyers are more commonly concerned with still feeling sexy, and like the idea that they could use their vehicles to start dating again, said David P. Bostwick, DaimlerChrysler's director of market research.

"We have a basic resistance in our society to admitting that we are parents, and no longer able to go out and find another mate," Mr. Bostwick said. "If you have a sport utility, you can have the smoked windows, put the children in the back and pretend you're still single."

Minivan buyers are also less likely than sport utility buyers to have reservations about being parents. "Sport utility people say, 'I already have two kids, I don't need 20,' " Mr. Bostwick said. "Then we talk to the people who have minivans and they say, 'I don't have two kids, I have 20 -- all the kids in the neighborhood.'"

Such psychological factors play a bigger role in the dividing line between minivan and sport utility customers than in the division between any other segments of the auto market, he added.

Since last autumn, General Motors has held seminars with customers, some lasting as long as two days, and reached many of the same conclusions as DaimlerChrysler, said Fred J. Schaafsma, a top G.M. vehicle development engineer. Both groups of buyers say they want to be "in control" in a vehicle, yet mean completely different things by this, the research found.

"Minivan people want to be in control in terms of safety, being able to park and maneuver in traffic, being able to get elderly people in and out," Mr. Schaafsma said. "S.U.V. owners want to be more like, 'I'm in control of the people around me.' " This is an important reason why seats are mounted higher in sport utilities than in minivans, he said.

Sport utility buyers are much more concerned with their vehicles' external appearance, while minivan buyers are more interested in the vehicles' interiors and practicality, said Thomas Elliott, Honda's executive vice president for North American auto operations. "The people who buy S.U.V.'s are in many cases buying the outside first and then the inside," he said. "They are buying the image of the S.U.V. first, and then the functionality."

Strategic Vision, a market research company in San Diego that does a lot of work for the auto industry, has found that a greater percentage of minivan buyers than sport utility buyers are involved in their communities and families. Minivan buyers are more likely than buyers of any other kind of vehicle to attend religious services and to engage in volunteer work, while sport utility buyers rank with pickup truck buyers and sports car buyers as the least likely to do either, the company found in a survey this spring of 19,600 recent buyers, including 5,400 minivan and sport utility buyers. A greater percentage of sport utility buyers dine at fine restaurants, go to nightclubs and sporting events, and work out.

Auto Pacific Inc., an auto market research company in Santa Ana, Calif., found in another large survey this spring that sport utility buyers placed a lower value than minivan buyers on showing courtesy on the road. Sport utility buyers were more likely to agree with the statement, "I'm a great driver," and to say that they drove faster than the average motorist.

Mr. Bostwick said that while some sport utility buyers mention that the vehicles' sturdy appearance looks safe to them, safety during traffic accidents tends not to be the real reason they buy a vehicle. "It's not safety as the issue, it's aggressiveness, it's the ability to go off the road," he said.

Death rates in crashes are roughly the same for sport utility occupants as for car occupants, and slightly lower for minivan occupants.

The industry's research on buyer psychology has already influenced the designs of minivans and sport utilities. DaimlerChrysler has chosen high-riding designs even for the two-wheel-drive versions of its sport utilities, even though they are unlikely to be driven over rough terrain and are therefore unlikely to need to ride higher, said David C. McKinnon, DaimlerChrysler's director of vehicle exterior design. Mr. McKinnon said the company's highest executives had told him repeatedly to "get them up in the air and make them husky."

For the minivan, he said, the goal was an attractive interior that would make buyers feel as if they were once again "in the womb."

The market research is also reflected in advertising. Ford currently has television and print ads showing a dozen mothers with their children arranged around a Windstar minivan. The ads explain that the mothers, all Ford employees, worked together on a recent redesign of the vehicle.

By contrast, a recent television ad for the Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited showed a driver who had to scale a pile of rocks that had blocked the driveway to his mansion, in a scene intended to show that a sport utility owner can overcome a threat. Similar themes have been found in ads for the Lincoln Navigator, promoting it as an "Urban Assault Luxury Vehicle" or urging customers to "Ditch the Joneses."

Mr. Bostwick of DaimlerChrysler and other auto market researchers said they had been greatly influenced by Dr. Clotaire Rapaille, a French-born medical anthropologist who has worked as a consultant to DaimlerChrysler, Ford and General Motors.

Dr. Rapaille looks at the intellectual, emotional and "reptilian," or instinctual, reasons why people buy consumer products. He said sport utilities are designed to be masculine and assertive, often with hoods that resemble those on 18-wheel trucks, vertical metal slats across the grilles to give the appearance of a jungle cat's teeth and flared wheel wells and fenders that suggest the bulging muscles in a clenched jaw.

Sport utilities are designed to appeal to Americans' deepest fears of violence and crime, Dr. Rapaille said. People's earliest associations with sport utilities are wartime Jeeps with machine guns mounted on the back, he explained. Sport utilities are "weapons" and "armored cars for the battlefield," he said.

Detroit advertising agencies have looked at buying the rights to make television commercials from the "Mad Max" series of movies, and inserting footage of sport utilities into movie scenes showing combat in the Australian desert by bloodthirsty, leather-clad biker gangs in masks, Dr. Rapaille said.

"The big, powerful S.U.V.'s with a message of 'don't mess with me' are going to be around for some time, because American culture is not going to change," he said.

By contrast, he said, sedans and station wagons have open grilles that look toothless. Sport utilities come in a wider range of designs than minivans, and the range of buyers' ages and incomes is therefore wider for sport utility buyers. But automakers say their psychological research confirms that the differences between sport utility buyers and minivan buyers hold true even among families in their 40's with children.

Relatively little research has been done on buyers of station wagons, because the wagon market is only a fifth the size of the minivan market and a tenth the size of the sport utility market. Large cars are another choice for families, but they are shunned by many middle-aged buyers as vehicles for old people. And while the midsize car market still attracts many families, it too has been dwindling.

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), July 17, 2000

Answers

darn center tag!

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), July 17, 2000.

>> Relatively little research has been done on buyers of station wagons ... <<

Dang! So that's why I bought the station wagon!

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), July 17, 2000.

Oh no! I'm a wimp; I drive a minivan! I sure won't make that mistake again. No wonder I get no respect; no wonder the babes don't see me even tho I'm rrrripped. Puttin' in my order tomorrow for a Humvee, or maybe an Abrams tank.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), July 17, 2000.

Great story , I enjoyed that. People with suv's and their cell phones; they forgot to add that in.

Lars, those humvees are ugly. How about a Harley and some leather chaps. =)

I think a guy looks good in a good old fashioned American-made pickup or a Jeep CJ7 (not a wrangler or cherokee, which has femininity written all over it).

I like the term someone here coined,'autobots' i think it was. People that drive EXACTLY what everyone else drives. I used to think the explorers were attractive, until everyone and their mother got one. And now they are so...stale.

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 17, 2000.

Hey, Cin! I like my "stale" Explorer, but I would much rather have that humvee!

-- Grace (SincerelyGrace@yada.yada), July 17, 2000.

oops that was rather bitchy of me sorry Grace

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 18, 2000.

No offense taken Cin, I was just joking with you! Besides, according to the article I am just a selfish loner with low self esteem, LOL!

-- Grace (SincerelyGrace@yada.yada), July 18, 2000.

Hey cin, How do you feel about a 1990 3/4 ton 4x4 with a 4 speed, a 454 w/ a 750 double pumper and headers? Can you say 45 to 100 in less than 10 seconds?

-- Mr.Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 18, 2000.

I'd say you spend more money on gas than I do. =o)

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 18, 2000.

True, but it's a biz truck so that doesen't matter all that much, as long as I stay out of the 4 barrels. My run-around car gets 30 MPG... it's a 26 year old restored Porsche, it's just about as fast, but you don't have to slow down for the corners :-)

-- Mr. Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 18, 2000.

This reminds me of the Jeep my ex-husband bought. He CLAIMED it was because he wouldn't worry about getting to the hospital [I was to deliver the third child around Christmas in Chicago.] Of course that was just an excuse. He later confessed that he'd always wanted a jeep.

He could have had the Jeep, as long as I drove something else, but Nooooooooo, he drove the car because HIS commute was longer and the car got better mileage. There I was every day, 8 months pregnant, hauling two toddlers up and into car seats in that little backseat [with no back door]. No resentment THERE, eh?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 18, 2000.

Lars: Humvee's are totally cool...! I wish i could afford one, but hey, it's either that, or a house, and my better half insist on the house...go figure...! Sure, they are ugly, but hard to ignore! I bet I'll win the "rotary" race if I enter with one of those...

Mar.

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), July 18, 2000.

Have you ever seen the stretch limo version of a Humvee? The only thing goofier-looking than that is the stretch limo version of a ... Corvette.

(I am not making this up.)

BTW, what happens if you don't fit into either of these categories? Do they just not "market to you"? (Not that I mind or anything, you understand [g].)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

Patricia: You don't like either Humvee's OR minivans? Well then little miss, I'm going to insist that you turn over your "I'm A Good Product Consuming American" Card and stand at the back of the room, looking at pictures of Yugos!

"Shopping: The new American hobby" anon.

Mar.

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), July 18, 2000.

Ah, yes, the Yugo.....the car that cost less than the personalized plates on it.

I didn't say I didn't like the Humvee (I actually do), but you can keep the minivans (and the majority of their drivers). I actually drive an old '85 tank of a station wagon (yeah, cut me off on the road....I laugh in your face!).

I just thought the Stretch Limo Humvee was one of the dumbest vehicles I'd ever seen.....except for the Stretch Limo Corvette (I've also seen Stretch Limo Explorers -- they rank right up there with the others).

(Can I have my card back now? Please?)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

Patricia: Ohh, okay heres your card back, but you just watch yourself!

"Yugothe car that cost less than the personalized plates on it." ROTF, ROTF!

WOO-HAA Humvees!!!! Im with you on the minivan and the stupid drivers. (oh, you didnt say "stupid" did you)

I drive an 88 jeep thats just about to rust out from underneath me. Only two windows workthat was *the* designhrumph; and my foot is beginning to go through the floorgroan/grin! So, much like yourself, I win any chicken race any idiot wants to play, cause I simply "dont care." ;-)

(Not that Im one of those crazy drivers. Hey! Honest!)

And, of course, your right. Humvees are dumb looking, in a kind of lovable ugly sort of way. Stretch Corvette Limos can only be dumber when they have a swimming pool in the back.ugh! (Ever seen those?)

Mar.

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), July 18, 2000.

No, I didn't say "stupid" drivers.....but it was assumed ;-) (Yeah, I'm going to catch bloody hell from people for that....so let me apologize in advance.)

I actually have to laugh at people who drive those tiny little cars (go-carts with motors) who absolutely, positively MUST be in my lane at the exact same moment and in the exact same space as I occupy. I mean, do they have ANY idea what **actual metal** (and at least a ton of it) can DO to those things?!?!? Do they think I'm even going to NOTICE it when I run over them?

Yes, I've seen the Corvette limos with the swimming pools and I wonder why. Was someone THAT bored one day? (Can I have that job? What are the qualifications?)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

YUGO = You Go But You Do Not Come Back.

I switched from a Civic to a bicycle for awhile. I don't dare ask what the marketers think of me.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), July 18, 2000.

kb8: "I switched from a Civic to a bicycle for awhile. I don't dare ask what the marketers think of me."

Why, you're Un-American, of course ;-)

(I wouldn't worry too much; my car makes up for your bicycle, and your girlfriend's bicycle and her friend's bicycle.....)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

Patricia quit whoring around this forum or at least pass out penecillen to the men you "associate with.

-- (she@doesnt.charge), July 18, 2000.

penicillin? DUH

I traded in my little red Festiva toward an F150. I absoltuely LOVE this truck, but I really miss that little 'red rocket', and her 40 mpg. She was so good to me. (Patricia, I think my festiva would classify as a go-cart with a motor) Fine little car she was. (getting all teary-eyed now) How could I have left her? Do you think she'll go to a good home? =o(

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 18, 2000.

(So much for the "nice" label, anyway. Sorry, fine people, but enough is just about enough.)

Hey asshole, why don't you get a freaking life of your own to worry about? If you don't have anything constructive to say (and it's painfully obviously that you don't) go post somewhere else.

At the very least, "unmask" and let all the world know who and what you are....after all, you're so freaking sure of your "opinion" of me, aren't you? Shouldn't be any problem whatsoever to tell us who you are, should it? I mean, a real man or a real woman would have no problem standing behind their words, right?

Oh, nevermind. You're a coward as well. And I can plainly see why you wouldn't want to do that. You're an asshole; you probably always were, and you always will be. I almost feel sorry for you.

Almost, but not quite.......ROTFLMAO!!!!!

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

cin, do you have any pictures through which you can fondly remember the car? You're getting me all misty-eyed now :-(

Yes, that's the type of car I meant; it's just so funny how many of the people who drive them give no thought whatsoever to cutting off a multi-ton vehicle like mine, or a bus, or a truck.....much like the one you have now (I *love* the F150...sigh).

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 18, 2000.

Patricia, just 2 comments.

It is amazing how those people in their tinfoil cars totally ignore the fact that the solid steel rigs we drive could probably run over them without blowing a tire !!! All of the trucks I drive for work are 3/4 ton 4x4's and have heavy bumpers with a winch. All of them have bumpers higher than the trunk lid on most cars !!! I have found that when they run a stop sign to get in fount of me so they can go 10 MPH under the speed limit, the view of my grill coming up on them at high speed has a tendency to remind then of their error :-)

You were way to nice to the butt wipe that is posting this shit, and yes, I've been around long enough to know who you and Doc are. Ignore "it" or go ahead and really say what you think :-)

-- Mr. Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 18, 2000.

It certainly fits that "Mr Slippery" would be defending Patricia. ROTFLMAO!!!!

-- (wE @re.w@tching), July 18, 2000.

I'll take a good ol' beat up truck thats runs half ass good,any day : )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), July 18, 2000.

It certainly fits that "Mr Slippery" would be defending Patricia. ROTFLMAO!!!!

-- (wE @re.w@tching), July 18, 2000.

You die if you really knew who I am :-)

-- Mr, Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 18, 2000.

uh oh ... a slow and painful death?

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 19, 2000.

Lol... ok. maybe I should proof read before posting...

-- Mr. Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 19, 2000.

Hey! I thought Patricia took all that crap on another thread and took it quite well, I must say. If you want to insult her even more than you already have,then go back to the original thread.

"People, we live in a society, here!"

Mar.

-- Not now, NOT LIKE THIS (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), July 19, 2000.

Mr Slippery Cum, it makes no difference who you are.For all we no, you are one of the guys slipping it to her after she finishes lap dancing. A skanky whore is a skanky whore and will always stink.

"If you want to insult her even more than you already have,then go back to the original thread.

"People, we live in a society, here!""

Your right. Whores are allowed to roam freely and I am allowed tgo say so.

-- (she@doesn't.charge), July 19, 2000.

OK, asshole, tell us who you are and what your freaking problem is with me. Like I said above (which you very conveniently ignored...what a surprise), you are so sure of your opinion of me, so you should have no problem whatsoever identifying yourself.

BTW, is it really difficult to intentionally misspell those words? How many times did you have to write it before you got it just right? You ain't fooling anyone you fucking coward.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 19, 2000.

Good! Now your starting to show your true colors! When are you going to start striping for us? Its amazing how tricky yuo dodge the truth about yourselve and try to direct attention to my speling and identity. we all know your practised at being tricky though.

If I start the muzic, will you dance reel slow?

-- (she@doesn't.charge), July 19, 2000.

"you are so sure of your opinion of me, so you should have no problem whatsoever identifying yourself."

Oh and yeah, I not so sure of myselve, I am sure of you.

-- (Patricia@doesn't.charge), July 19, 2000.

And if I throw a stick, will you leave?

Look asshole, stop disrupting threads with your bullshit. You contribute nothing of value to this board, but I suspect it is the same in whatever serves as your "real life". Like I said, I almost feel sorry for you.

NOT. LOLOL.....

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 19, 2000.

Telling the truth about you on a thread shouldnt be particulary dispuptive. Should I start a new one?

-- (Patricia@doesn't.charge), July 19, 2000.

Ahem...might I suggest that the disruptor simply be ignored?

Back to the automobiles.....at the same time we owned a Jeep, we owned a Ghia. I alternated between the two. The Ghia had a back seat equivalent in size to the Jeep's back seat, but instead of reaching UP to haul the toddlers, I reached DOWN. Ghia's are fun to drive if you're alone on a highway. They're no fun at all if you're in a lane between two semi's and you KNOW that neither of them can see you because you don't even register in their mirrors. There's also a sensation that you're sitting on the highway while driving. This sensation is more pronounced when one is in a pregnant state.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 19, 2000.

It cerainly makes sense that another polly whore would have something to say here. It cerainly makes sense that the person with an opinion on EVERYTHIONG would post now. (Anita, you let a man support you to right?) Birds of a feather.

-- (Patricia@doesn't.charge), July 19, 2000.

Anita, was that the VW car, the Carmen Ghia (or something like that)? Those were pretty cool, and as I understand it, they are now selling for a small fortune, if you are lucky enough to have one.

My uncle used to have one and I remember riding in it a couple of times as a kid. Of course, my experience would have been worlds apart from yours; at the time, I *liked* the sensation of "riding on the highway".

Now I feel much better riding "above the highway".

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 19, 2000.

Patricia:

Yes. I totally enjoyed the experience when I was the only one in the car on an empty freeway. Vroom...Vroom...Vroom. I enjoyed driving a motorcycle for many years, as well. The experience changed, however, when I had young children and felt like the car was a cookie waiting to be crumbled by someone in a large vehicle who simply couldn't see us.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 19, 2000.

Patricia and Anita,

I don't want to cause anymore trouble here, but when was the last time either of you two worked? (Patricia are you really a titty dancer?)

-- Curious but (embarassed@ to sign my .name), July 19, 2000.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! Good question Curious!

Ia m sure the ansure is neither one of them has worked in over 8 months! (Unless you count services on their back "work".)

-- (Patricia@doesn't.charge), July 20, 2000.

The troll disrupter with multiple personality disorder is Laura. You can take that to the bank!

-- (She@never.left), July 20, 2000.

Ia m not Laura. I am some one sick of you pollies and whores taking over this forumn.

You must be Patricia or Cherri or Anita and trying to evade the question. Have you gotten a job yet? You three whores are birds of a feather. Fregging polly whores who spend their days in internet bulletin boards. YOur whore list sisters! BWAHAHAHA!

-- (Patricia@doesn't.charge), July 20, 2000.

Unbelievable

-- Debra (thisis@it.com), July 20, 2000.

awww, netty netty netty

do i have to write another email outting you further? now do i?

freespeech_y2k@email.com

-- I know (who@you.are), July 20, 2000.

i see your ip

-- I know (who@you.are), July 20, 2000.

Hummmmm...What would Freud say.

And by the way there is no such thing as a no-charge whore. You do end up paying, somehow, someway. Believe me.

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 20, 2000.

"Detroit advertising agencies have looked at buying the rights to make television commercials from the "Mad Max" series of movies, and inserting footage of sport utilities into movie scenes showing combat in the Australian desert by bloodthirsty, leather-clad biker gangs in masks, Dr. Rapaille said."

Great Idea! One of my favorite flicks.

-- Van Driver (VD@vans.r.us), July 22, 2000.

OMGosh!!!! CIN: I think I have your car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am serious, its red, you can turn it around in the middle of the street, and it has over 135,000 miles on it, with new trannie....

OH NO, MR Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROFLMBO......I swear I got it, tell me the name, make and year? Please.

(frowning, with left eyebrow lifted, awaiting a response, dreading the answer!!!)

xoxoxo, sumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), July 22, 2000.

haha sumer. If you have my little girl then you should be happy. She's a great car. In fact, I was going to keep her on the side but they made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I just got tired of cramming my kids and all their friends into that little thing, which is huge inside in comparison to other cars its size. It was actually pretty spacious inside. But teenage basketball players have reeeeaaallly long legs, ya know?

p.s...88 ford festiva with 95k miles

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), July 22, 2000.

HEE HEE, I'm safe, relaxes a lil bit....

mine is 92 eagle summit es, kid calls it 'ma's skateboard'.....

xoxoxo, sumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), July 22, 2000.

Who is this person who keeps deriding Particia? Could it really be (Gasp) LadyLogic? Who dislikes her so much so as to keep doing this? Whoever it is, grow up or go somewhere else, Ya Jerk.

-- Wonderin (about@lots.of.things), July 22, 2000.

"Earth Muffin?" Is that related to "Meadow Muffin?"

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), July 22, 2000.

Anita and Pat,

The Carmen Ghia was a knock off of the 356 Porsches. It didn't have the high rev., balanced and blue printed engine, nor the low gears that afforded, but it had the same suspension the 356 had and the same rack and pinion steering. It was somewhat under-powered, but a real riot to drive... glad you ladies had fun with it :-)

-- Mr. Slippery (slip@slide.cum), July 23, 2000.