Hi, I just found out Sara, of whom I have become a fan, is a suporter of mayor Giuliani of New York City. Unless she was being facetious. So my question, dear everyone is, "how do you feel about fascists?" Much love, b0b0

-- Bob van Pelt (bob@lackadays.com), July 12, 2000

Answers

Good question, Bob. Inquiring about emotions rather than rational thought. Let's see....I feel that the uniforms were always a little overdone.

Now it's my turn. How do you feel about "wildings", Bob?

-- Berwick Drews (berwick.drews@marriott.com), July 13, 2000.

How do you feel about definitions, bob? Define the word 'fascist' correctly, without consulting a dictionary, explain how it pertains to Mayor Giuliani, and I'll answer your question.

-- Colin (ethilrist@prodigy.net), July 13, 2000.

Ay, I'm being put on the proverbial spot. Serves me right for being a little provocative, I guess. Okay, without a dictionary. Fascism is a regime (or a political idea), usually autocratic, that is nationalistic and I believe also racist. It denounces the individual rights and puts the rights of the regime above all. Yes? The regime usually throws in some violent oppression of the people, jnust for the hell of it. Now, as for Giuliani and his regime, his attacks on welfare recipients, on community gardens, on the homeless, on street vendors, on taxi drivers, pedestrians and bicyclists, on law abiding citizens who fit the street crimes unit "profile," are outrageous, unfair and racist.

-The NYPD has more liberties then ever since he became mayor. The street crimes unit operates by profiling people. (yes, crime has dropped, but there are also other factors for that, such as economical ones). Now, I am not against police, but I am against a regime that permits 4 cops to shoot an unarmed man, I don't know, say, 41 times, and get away with it. A police state is a mechanically efficient way to deal with social problems. Mussolini and Hitler both made the trains run on time and had the cleanest streets in Europe. Both achieved very significant reductions in petty crime.

-When asked whether all children should have DNA tests at birth, the Mayor said: "...I would have no problem with that, or fingerprinting all children...There is absolutely no reason why people should be afraid of being identified"-N.Y. Times 12/17/98 "Giuliani Backs DNA Testing of Newborns for Identification". Isn't that what the Nazis told the Jews when they had to wear a yellow star or were tattooed at the death camps ?

- Giuliani & The Brooklyn museum/Chris Ofili's Madonna. Now he is going to dictate what is Art and what's not?? Giuliani's threat to withhold city funding to the Brooklyn Museum because of his distaste for the exhibition of work by cutting edge British artists, and his threat to evict the museum from its city-owned building for the same reason, violates the museum's First Amendment rights

- Giuliani "solves" homeless people problem by jailing them, forcing them to work or go to jail instead (can you say: "Arbeit macht frei"??), and kicking them out of the richer neighborhoods, and neighborhoods frequented by tourists.

- creates zoning laws to prohobit porn and sex stores in Times Square and other touristy places, so Disney and WB can move in and continue their brainwashing activities.

need I go on?

Yes, the uniforms were a little too much. Wildings? Is that a metaphor for foreigners? Or just plants? I love plants, especially wild ones. Used to have a jardin sauvage myself!

Peace and Love,

b0b0

-- Bob van Pelt (bob@lackadays.com), July 13, 2000.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I shouldn't even be responding to this. I have had this discourse on this site several times. Since Bob is new reader, he probably missed the Giuliani debate that took place in my old forum.

It is not a secret that I am a staunch supporter of Giuliani. The city changed dramatically in the years I have been living there. I am aware that there are other factors contributing to this change. I am not blind.

I would like to say this. If you think that there is some comparison between Nazi Death Camps and living in New York City under Mayor Giuliani, you can just take your argument elsewhere. As soon as you said that, you lost all credibility with me.

-- Sara Astruc (saraastruc@aol.com), July 13, 2000.

Jeez Bob. You don't have a clue, do you?

Do you have the power to vote for the candidate of your choice? Do you carry a passport with your ethnicity stamped on the inside front cover? Can you be thrown into prison for not carrying that passport with you at all times (assuming you can't afford to bribe the militsya?).

Will that same militsya plant heroin on your person if they catch you doing missionary work for ANY religion?

Do you live in a country with labor camps where hundreds are held (without charge) for their political or ethical opposition to the regime in power? Do people quietly die from beatings and starvation in those camps every month? Do their mothers get rounded up by the MVD for protesting their children's disappearance?

Can you be dragooned into the military when you hit a critical age? If you have a military exemption (rare) for being in university, can you still be marched off into the cotton fields to pick cotton for the state for several months a year?

Does the state security apparat read your email or monitor your internet access? Do they haul you in for questioning if you write something seditious? Fuck the porn shops around Times Square, do the cops pimp for the women they arrest?

Are you devoting every fiber of your being to trying to get the hell out of New York and into a freer, better place? To get your family to a freer, better place? No?

Then shut the fuck up.

Calling people fascists does not promote political dialogue, unless those people are really fascists. You need a reality check.

-- Alex (formerly) of Tashkent (huemera@cgu.edu), July 13, 2000.

As a matter of fact, I am always looking for a better place to move to. Know of any? Sorry I missed the earlier dialogue on this topic, Sara. Didn't mean to bring up a sour subject. Alex, you are right about your arguments. All I am trying to say is, we should be aware of certain symptoms that could lead to much, much worse. Im my opinion, the mayor shows clear symptoms of fascism. No need to get rude about it. I started this dialogue without thinking of the consequences. Didn't mean to offend anyone personally. Although I feel a little on the defensive right now (I didn't compare living in nyc with death camps), I think it's best we lay the topic to rest, since it's been done. Sorry, sorry...

b0b0

-- Bob van Pelt (bob@lackadays.com), July 13, 2000.

Bob, I don't want to you to feel that your opinions are unwelcome here in the forum. It just frosts me when folks wave around Nazi Germany as a legitimate comparison to conceding a certain amount of civil rights for the greater good of a society like New York City. Once I hear a comparison like that, I just sort of glaze over.

I've written extensive opinions on Giuliani (as have many other readers) here:

http://www.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?userid=rw32816

That's the old forum. Scroll down to "My thoughts on Hillary." I do ask that everyone NOT post there, that if they have anything to add, to add it here, as that forum is on its way to deletion when my site moves.

-- Sara Astruc (saraastruc@aol.com), July 13, 2000.

Okay, point well taken. I do think it's an interesting discussion and one I have had in "real life" many times, and probably will have again. I know I was being provocative by starting it, but that was over only the first of my daily dose of many cups of strong black coffee, so I'm sure you can understand. It reminds me to always think before I write. I want to stress that I have no hard feelings against anyone who votes for Giuliani or any other politician I may not like. I'm also a little frustrated over the fact that I live in a place where I am not alowed to vote, in spite of the fact that I pay taxes.

b0b0

-- Bob van Pelt (bob@lackadays.com), July 13, 2000.

Alex asks some interesting questions, most of which can be answered "no" by Bob. However:

>Do you have the power to vote for the candidate of your choice?

Thanks to the recent Supreme Court ruling on blanket primaries, the answer to this is "no". Party rights have no superceded voter rights in this area.

>Will that same militsya plant heroin on your person if they catch you doing >missionary work for ANY religion?

Perhaps not for doing missionary work, but certainly police have planted drugs on people they've wanted to arrest. Ten officers have been charged with doing so since 1995 in Philadelphia alone. Or is it okay to be framed if you're not a missionary?

>Can you be dragooned into the military when you hit a critical age?

Um...Yes. Didn't you sign up when you turned 18? You were supposed to.

>Does the state security apparat read your email or monitor your internet access?

Um...Yes. Didn't you read about the FBI's Carnivore system?

>do the cops pimp for the women they arrest?

I can't find any specific instances of this, but I think we'd be naive to believe it doesn't happen. Certainly the police run protection rackets for prostitutes in exchange for sex and money (see the Manhattan South scandal). I'm not sure whether you qualify as a pimp if you take a cut but don't help find clients.

Is America, or even New York, a fascist country/city? I don't believe so. But that doesn't mean it should be allowed to become one before anyone starts complaining. Better to overreact to possible abuses of authority than to let them slide.

-Bill

-- William R. Dickson (wrd@awenet.com), July 13, 2000.

If anyone waded through the long, wonkish contribution I made to the original Hillary v Rudy discussion, they'll know that I am no the great fan of the Mayor's management style. But I don't think that the right response to Giuliani's sometime tendency toward manichaean overreaction is... manichaean overreaction.

-- David (dvdbelkin@aol.com), July 13, 2000.

This forum is closed! Visit ThreeWay Action to post!

-- Sara Astruc (astruc@astruc.com), September 10, 2000.