I don't know whether this is true or not, but there is a story that when the superintendent of prisons for the state of Florida was criticized for the bad conditions in the prisons, he replied "If you want better conditions in the prisons, you'll have to send me a better class of prisoners".

I have found another bulletin board that has a "better class of prisoners". The discussion there is civil and of much higher general quality, although of much lower volume. It is a membership-only board, but they're always looking for new members. If you're interested in having civil discussions about any number of topics, take a look at their web site and see if you would be interested in joining. I hope to see some of you there.

Now I return you to your regularly scheduled flame fest. Don't expect to see much more participation from me, though; I think I've adequately fulfilled my purpose here.

-- Steve Heller (Steve@SteveHeller.com), July 06, 2000

Answers

Heller,

I'll confess. I am a bit mystified as to what exactly your "purpose" was. As for the link, you have provided the perfect capstone to my impression of you as Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius. I wish you and your high intelligence compatriots the very best.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 06, 2000.

JOKER. You are as bad as the multi-time Premier of Italy, Fanfani aka: Il re-eccolo. You have quit this and Csissies2k multi-times.

Why don't you join your real intellectual peers: Cory, Gary, Maul Pilne and the largest MIRRORS you can buy?? Don't forget to add a suitable recording device so you can hear yourself talk and record it for "the generations".

LOGIC BUILT ON QUICKSAND ERODES RAPIDLY IS THE HELLERIAN "TAKE HOME LESSON". You serve as a good model demonstrating that *UNTRAINED* and *UNEDUCATED* RAW INTELLIGENCE can reach logical conclusion that have no meaning in the real world. Anyone with a "good nose" could have smelled out the faults in the structure of what YOU ACCEPTED AS FACT re: Y2k.

I'm MENSA material and I told them once the classic Groucho Line: "I wouldn't join a club that would have me for a member".

I'm with Richard Fynman Nobel Genius about such things being a WASTE. But when it comes to *waste*, you fit right in.

While I'm a personal snop, LINCOLN was correct. There is much wisdom in the "common people".

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), July 06, 2000.

WHAT????? No resume????? You have NEVER,Had anything "nice" or civil to say to anybody that disagreed with you.Period!!!! Next time you get in a battle of wits, consider not coming half prepared.Your "logic" makes about as much sense as rubber tits on a stone dog!!!Looks good,feels good but are fake.

-- yh (s@n.k), July 06, 2000.

(It's true, I never quit.)

Hmmm, let's see if I understand this, Steve. You state that you "...have found another bulletin board that has a "better class of prisoners"". Well, kudos to you. You further imply that you are "...interested in having civil discussions about any number of topics...", and by your statement that you "...hope to see some of [us] there", it can be deduced that you will be posting there. Again, kudos all around.

Funny thing there, Steve. There are many interesting threads on this board, with many interesting participants, on many interesting topics. Witness (for one example) eve who just recently posted her little heart out in an attempt to turn the direction away from the egos and nastiness that seems to have permeated this place of late. I don't recall seeing your name on any of the responses to any of those threads, though I admit, I haven't checked the past couple of days, so I could be wrong.

But come to think of it, I don't really recall seeing your name on many (if any) posts on any threads that didn't directly revolve around YOU.

Coincidence? I would have to doubt it, primarily because I don't necessarily believe in coincidences. No, Steve, one is almost forced to deduce that the ONLY reason you are (ahem) "leaving" this board is because you are tired of getting your butt kicked around by (dare I say it?) those with higher intelligence and (GASP!) more logic than you.

In parting I'd just like to say that in not replying to any of my direct-to-you posts, you missed out on some "civil discussion" (if I do say so myself; and I do), albeit with an Absolutely Undistinguished Dimwit (wink, wink).

Heh, your loss :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), July 06, 2000.

Steve, I'm amazed that you stuck it out for as long as you did, putting up with the lunatic ravings of CPR & co. I'm sure you will continue to lurk -- face it, in an offbeat sort of way watching the wackiest of the pollies continue to tilt windmills is entertainment you can't find anywhere else. (Your recent math tutoring of CPR is a real creeper-keeper.(chortle))

Good luck....

-- WD-40 (wd40@squeak.not), July 06, 2000.

WD,

Steve is always sticking it out, hoping someone else will stroke it. He gets so tired stroking it himself. In public, too . . . it's a little embarrassing.

No! His ego. HIS EGO!

What did you think I meant?

-- N.Arro (N.Arro@home.now), July 06, 2000.

This is the most civil forum on the internet and if you don't like I WILL LET YOU KNOW IT!

-- civil person (more@than.you), July 06, 2000.

What a freaking JOKE. Go to your Mensa friends ya moron, ROTFLMAO.

Here is a guy(Heller) smack dab in the center of the worst call, probably of the century, deluding himself he is intelligent? Take Brian with you he needs his "thoughts" laid-out like ducks in a row as well. Someday maybe it will dawn on you birdbrains your best thinking ain't working. Might want to consider the concept that your thinking is mere evidence you are LOST, cause you are.

All about awareness...Doesn't require neat little algorithms and models this living deal. Requires you get the freak out of your own dam way, as the good book says. You blew Y2k completely, not a tad, COMPLETELY. And with the experience of 25 years in the dam industry to boot! If you are not ASLEEP, then what would you call it??? mistaken???? If so, why do you insist on feeding what is obviously majorly broke? You don't really know squat, Y2k proved that, and has been sealed the last few months around here.

Have a good one really. Again, thanks for the laugh, geezz you should see how lame you look from my seat,,,BLAHHHHAHAhahawooohehehee.

-- passerby (totallyam@zing.bullshit), July 06, 2000.

cpr:::I'm MENSA material and I told them once the classic Groucho Line: "I wouldn't join a club that would have me for a member".

Any of you whining, ignorant Charlie bashers want to comment? Course not cause you are wrong about C as you were about Y2k, go buy some clues freaks.

-- passerby (amazing@this.board), July 06, 2000.

Heller:

Since I know you have a sense of humor, I have to assume this is a joke. If not, then I think you have just made it impossible for most of us who MAY have respected you, to respect you.

I went over all the profiles at that site and a chunk of the discourse, and I will not be spending any time there. And before you ask-yes I would qualify on a number of the tests.

Any group that would exclude others based on test scores deserves each other. What struck me the most is that most of these "geniuses" have nothing to show for their genius. No great humanitarian work, no great novel, no CEOs, etc etc. Not that I measure a person's worth by their occupation, but these folks are setting themselves up to be knocked down.

I did not see a single thread there that would top the most interesting and intellectual threads I have experienced on this board. Hey, any one can form an exclusive club, godspeed. But to claim that some are "better prisoners" based on test scores is ridiculous. To claim that a higher IQ gives one a greater propensity to be civil is also a laugh.

Hey, Heller-Good joke. If not, good riddance.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), July 06, 2000.

Helter,

I wish you well, I sincerely do. Please be sure to tell them how right you were about Y2k...and don't forget the links to your resume page(s?).

Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 07, 2000.

>> Someday maybe it will dawn on you birdbrains your best thinking ain't working. <<

I am a bit puzzled what data set you based this conclusion on. So far, my best thinking has been fallible, but overall it is satisfactory. I've managed to marry a woman I love, who loves me. My daughter adores me.

My job is reasonably challenging and I only need to work half time to earn a salary that pays the bills and puts (some really delectable) food on the table. I rarely suffer from regrets. I deal capably with emotional (and physical) difficulties you may have no grasp of.

If my best thinking is resulting in a lot of notable failures (not forgetting being wrong about Y2K), then you will have to point them out to me.

But, as you have attained a reasonable mastery over the facts of my best thinking, this should not present much of a problem and I look forward to reading your analysis of all the best thinking I have done in the past 46 years. It should make for some good reading.

BTW, you can critique Steve Heller's best thinking too, if you have time, but it's mine I'm (perhaps understandably) eager to hear your views on, since Steve's views have never played much of a role in my own life.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), July 07, 2000.

Hey Steve, Ill settle for a better class of alleged IT experts.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 07, 2000.

And the ego deficient pile on ....... LMA Off

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 07, 2000.

(Compuserve, 11-Nov-97)

Steve Heller: If we need better people to have a better society, then we will have a better society after the Y2K disaster. How do I come to this conclusion? Well, if 10% of what I foresee actually takes place, the average citizen will be overwhelmed by the difficulty of survival. Only those who have seen it coming and have prepared themselves will be likely to survive. Since such preparation requires a high degree of rationality and foresight, those who survive will be more rational and foresightful than the average person today: therefore, the new society will start out with better people and will as a result be a better society.

Harlan Smith: Totally wrong. Those most concerned about Y2K are those with technical educations and more spcecifically computer-oriented technical educations. That does not make them superior to others who have elected to specialize in other fields. You're just way off track and have oversimplfied this to the point of absurdity. Sounds like "religion" rather than "reason" to me.

Steve Heller: The question is who is going to prepare for Y2K in their own lives. By next year, everyone in an industrial society will have had the opportunity to learn about Y2K. Those who refuse to do this, or who know about it but don't prepare for it personally will be wiped out, if they even survive.

Harlan Smith: It's not clear however that personal preparation will do the job. I agree that it would be foolish not to prepare. I have my own plans but have misgivings about them and am also very concerned about my 5 children and their families. We're in for some very different and very challenging times. All governments are still flubbing badly, as clearly indicated by my numerous posts here. More today. Too little, too late is the rule.

Steve Heller: I'm glad that you agree that personal preparation is necessary. Whether it is sufficient is something that only time will tell.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), July 07, 2000.

Brian My job is reasonably challenging and I only need to work half time to earn a salary that pays the bills and puts (some really delectable) food on the table.

Butt Nugget Oh yeah, well how about trying to get me on the payroll?.

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), July 07, 2000.

I'm MENSA material and I told them once the classic Groucho Line: "I wouldn't join a club that would have me for a member". -- The Great and Powerful CPR

Wrong, meme-breath. Mensa doesn't approach you -- you approach them. Or are you just talking through your ass (again)?

-- (Someone.Who.IS.A.Member@But.Doesn't.Go.To.The.Parties), July 07, 2000.

I was "approached". I flat out declined. There is nothing "wrong" with Mensa. Self appointed "elites" have little interest for me. I had a Nobel Winner tell me in the hallway of SUNY Stony Brook, "there are no real geniuses, there are only those who do the work and those who do not". Those who study Science (and technology) know that the work load to even be able to start to work in a field is very heavy now and growing exponentially. Those who work with the "geniuses" will also tell you that outside their own fields, they can be pretty "dumb" sometimes. Einstein was "wrong" for the last 30 years of his life and was able to contribute little after the 1926 Conference.

Heller will learn that they have 2 doors, "in" and "out" and on the way out, he will tell them the same thing he posted here.

His whole "raison'd'etre" stems from the same thinking that the ability to program well places him into another "Exclusive Club".

It does not. The proper view is that he belongs to a group of skilled technicians no better and no worse than a plumber, an electrician, an auto worker, Dentist, Doctor or CPA or Scientist. But the operative thinking should and must be "better or worse". The ultimate fallacy of any "Elite" is that there will always be..........someone richer, someone more beautiful, someone who can play piano or golf or tennis better, or...to their *horror* : someone who can THINK better. But the ability to "think" or process information matters little on the First Tee if you are looking across at one Mr. Tiger Woods or Ms. Betsy King.

Jefferson, ranked as one of the true geniuses in American History would have no truck with such Elitist thinking thought he, himself was a De-facto member of the "elite".

The American Republic (the world's most successful current role model of government)... is built upon Jefferson and others' belief that "an educated citizenry is the best defense of liberty".

The Founders did not speak of "a smarter citizenry" (politicians tend to have trouble even finishing IQ tests as Mr. Gore demonstrates. It is not built on "an educated elite ruling class is the best way to run the show".

It may stike the Hellers and the Mensas of the world as "news" but "ordinary people" can and do extraordinary things. For proof I can offer the creation and building of the United States of America by ALL THE PEOPLE not the "Mensas" or any group that "is smarter than all of you" types.

Thomas Edison said it 100 years ago, "invention is 95% perspiration and 5% inspiration". Edison had little formal education not unlike the Gateses, Dells and Jobs who quit college to learn what they needed to learn and know by themselves. He and Henry Ford built 2 of the largest and most important categories in the Industrial sector that to this day still employ huge chunks of the work force. We remember them and not the "GENIUS" Tesla.

The drumbeaters of Y2k was Gary North who was dedicated to replacing the US Constitution with his own form of CHURCH STATE disguised with his buzz word of "Theonomy". Gary's "God", Gary's Bible and Gary's rules.

I think that I can show that *MOST* of the leading "voices" of Y2k Doom all had agendas based on the following general so- called "thoughts":

It is from this same general outlines that almost all FRINGE groups both Left and Right derive their "motivations" and "justifications" for their actions. From this comes the "call to action" for whatever "cause" and it is clear that the entrance of the Leftist, Socialists like Carmichael, Theobold and the "World Futurists" into Y2k was for the purpose of "Recruiting for the future". It why the Rouge Valley people make fools of themselves to the same but less publicized extent that Paul Gordon has.

And as one can do with the self-appointed "SMARTIES" like Yourdon and Heller, you have to ask :

How smart could these people be and how much about the future could the "Futurists" know,,,,,,,,,if they got Y2k SO WRONG?

And the answer to that from them is "IT DOESN"T MATTER. TOMORROW IS ANOTHER DAY AND WE WILL DO IT AGAIN".

1. Something is wrong (computer failure gwine be REAL BAD);

2. I (We) know **BETTER** (unsaid: "BEST") than most how to do things better than the current system;

3. This time "they" will do it our way ("finally") and this is our chance to "really show them" our way is best.

4. We will do "whatever it takes to get the message across".

And it was the "Whatever it takkes to get the message across that lead to all of the **not being able to accept the changing facts about REMEDIATION** and also lead to the "EXTREMISM". Behind that it was *trivial* to *JUSTIFY* "preparing", "propagandizing", "LYING" and the post-1/1/2000 "DENIAL" still in evidence here.

KNOWING THAT or if one was lucky as I was TO HAVE KNOWN THAT THEY HAD DONE ALL OF THIS BEFORE.........from "the Bomb" to "Nuke Power" to "The Commies" to "The Devil makes you do that" to any of the causes **USED** by "EXTREMISTS OF ANY ILK"..........

one is forearmed and forewarned of what is to come from them as they try over and over, their NAKED GRASPS FOR THE ONE THING

.........they want: POWER and "POWER" over.........."the good common sense of the American Public"...........THEY VIEW AS

"SHEEPLE".

AND TO ALL OF THEM A MESSAGE WHICH SHOULD BE YOURS : "OVER MY DEAD BODY".

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), July 07, 2000.

Graduate Record Exam, Verbal 700 Graduate Record Exam, Quantitative 790 Graduate Record Exam, Analytical 770 Graduate Record Exam, Quant+Analyt 1470 *(5)

That's *all* to get into Hellers' "new best friends" club?

These general GREs only measure the "ability to do grad work". I doubt many could do so well on the more specific tests and LSAT would probably make mincemeat of all these "Geniuses".

Anyone who keeps up in his /her field in Science but has a broad range of interests in other matters could probably pass those criteria and do so every year long after leaving college.

I was in the 80s percentiles in Quant/Anal and shocked to find myself 91 in verbal (because it had been 20 years since taking any English, Poli.Sci. or Liberal Arts artsy -craftsy course.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), July 07, 2000.

That's *all* to get into Hellers' "new best friends" club?

It's true that their minimum standards aren't very demanding, but at least they have SOME standards (including civility), unlike this board. By the way, I have MANY extra IQ points beyond their requirements. No, CPR, you can't borrow them to get in.

I was in the 80s percentiles in Quant/Anal and shocked to find myself 91 in verbal (because it had been 20 years since taking any English, Poli.Sci. or Liberal Arts artsy -craftsy course.

Actually, I would put you at the 100th percentile in Anal, CPR. Of course, in actual numerical analysis, you're completely defective, as demonstrated by your inability to solve a relatively simple word problem. Or have you forgotten about that thread?

As for verbal, you're easily at the 91st in quantity (of gibberish), but as for quality, you're well below normal.

Please note that neither of these is anywhere near the 98th percentile needed to get into Mensa, as easy as that is. I wonder why?

AND TO ALL OF THEM A MESSAGE WHICH SHOULD BE YOURS : "OVER MY DEAD BODY".

Promises, promises. I'll believe it when I see it.

-- Steve Heller (steve@steveheller.com), July 07, 2000.

cpr,

I was rather impressed with your train of thought until y2k was introduced,your point was clearly made and did not need to be dilluted with y2k as your closing statement.

I probably wouldn't fit the bill for acceptance in your new club Steve,but alas I don't fit the bill at SLEZ either.I probably wouldn't join if they'd have me because I think I'd rather hang with the brick and mortar crowd that wants/has to think things through instead of arrogantly thinking they allways "allready" know the answers.

I think I'll stick with the common people or at least the ones that haven't reached "diety" status.While I may forever strive to attain more and more knowledge I hope and pray that I never reach the spheres od the ivory towered elite.

This little blurb probably doesn't mean much to you Steve,sinse I am most definetly from the common ilk.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), July 07, 2000.

I qualified for MENSA when I was 13 years old. So what, I found most of them egotistical bores like Steve Heller.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), July 07, 2000.

Good grief Steve, I would have to add 40 or so points to be able to get in there, lol.

I do understand your desire to avoid the flame fest, you've taken a few blow torches lately. You've also dished it out a bit too. I do the same on occassion, but try to avoid it.

I do wish this forum would be a bit more civil, and certainly hope you reconsider Steve, I appreciate your input in the forum. There are a number of intelligent people here, in fact, most appear to be well above average intelligence.

Actually, Steve, CPR, and the whole damned forum including moi, with such big egos, you guys need each other to "discuss" things. So we really ought to consider being a bit more civil...

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), July 08, 2000.

I guess I'll chime in here and say that, overall, I agree more with cpr on this matter than Mr. Heller. Intelligence and aptitude tests mean very little in real life, beyond the obvious fact that you can mine the same amount of gold from high-yield ore with less effort than from than low-yield ore. But effort is the key word there.

I score well on standardized tests. I have since I was quite young. I would qualify for Steve's elite forum. I won't say more than that about the actual numbers. They're good, but nothing "super-genius" about 'em.

As far as I can tell, the numbers on these aptitude tests have no true correlation to achievement. And achievement is where it is at, as far as I am concerned. Some people with very pedestrian IQs have done really remarkable things, through application of the gifts they had. Some people with soaring IQs accomplish little more than crashing and burning and leaving a bit of grey ash behind to mark their passage.

As a very fine math teacher once told me, when I showed him my PSAT scores, "All that tells me is that you're apt to do something one of these days. How about starting with your homework?" That took me down about three pegs in a hurry, let me tell you. Damn! I'm glad he said that. It stuck with me for almost 30 years so far. Likely to stick to my dying day.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), July 08, 2000.