I decided to post a message After speaking with Skito about leaderboard.

Some months ago I posted a message on the board saying the necessity to limit the upload only to final versions of mame. Now that the problem is increased (allowing to upload games recorded with mamelang or other unofficial versions of mame and other minor problems) I ask to reopen this discussion.

First purpose of Marp is to be a great collection of inp, but the second is that these inp had to be easily playbackable. When I have great recordings but I cannot replay them (because they were done with unofficial version of mame and maybe with sound or others settings changed), it is the same to have not them at all.

In marp there are many confirmers and they do their best but it is not acceptable they had to spend hours trying all the combination possible to playback an input (and it is possible that it is a broken inp!!).

It is possibly that will come out soon (i think) a new tgmame version that will not allow any type of cheating. This version( like the older) will be created only for the final version of Mame.

What I think is that it could be a good idea to make an alternate leaderboard containing only records done with the new tg version of mame (obviously without deleting older records).

This will be good for many reason :

1) Easier life for confirmers to check recordings

2) Easier life for players who will have only to download 2 versions of mame every 6/9 months instead of 3/4 versions every 3 weeks

3) Easier life for all who want to see sometimes a recording (an inp is eeasily downloadable but if I had to download 2mb of mame for every inp it is not so easy)

In this case the site will be accessible to many more people.

Moreover updating the site only for changes from a final version to another will clear the situation on marp. In many games I found broken or incorrect inp or default settings changed.Updating only sometimes we can create a page with the difference and many other things (this is not so easy with 18 betas a year).

Finally : for clearness it will be good to include in the zip file a txt file in which you say the command line you used to replay the inp (for dos users) or the changes you done to default settings (for win users).

I hope to have bored noone with this post but I think this is the only solution to have only right inp.

-- A.D. SAKURAGI (adeidda@inwind.it), July 04, 2000

Answers

I hate this idea with a passion, and will repost my reasons if need be (the Editors have been dicussing this issue, as skito and I have very different opinions on this topic). Let me state something both as the Rules Coordinator, an Editor, a Confirmer, and a Player at MARP, so that there is no confusion to anyone out there. The player is responsible for making sure their .inps play back, not the confirmers. Some confirmers like skito are especially tolerant in this regard, and will try multiple combinations to play back an .inp. Personally, I try two combinations- with sound and without- if nothing is written in the decription field. I then ask another confirmer to double check the .inp and .nv. If neither of us can play it back, it's gone. If a player wants to request time to reupload another recording since he can make the same score again, that's fine, I've done this on a few games, most notably Discs of Tron (environmental) which would not play back because of an error in MAME32v.36's production cycle. There is, however, nothing wrong with the current leaderboard and it would be a waste of time and resources to create an entirely new one. Time would be better spent modifying and improving the current one.

And no program is impossible to hack. None. That's the first law of hacking.

Q.T.Quazar

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), July 04, 2000.

I agree with Sakuragi in may respects that confirming should be easier than it is. A lot of players don't care if their recordings playback for others and submit because they've played it back themselves (not remembering perhaps they recorded with out sound/with an unofficial mame version, with a nvram file, etc.) when they could easily just put they're settings in a text file or in the upload description.

QT has some very good points against having an additional TGleaderboard. I think the most convincing is that it may effectly reduce the worth that some marpers have spent in climbing up the current leaderboard.

But having a tgleaderboard doesn't remove the current leaderboard, it's simply a new method of scoring where only tgmame recordings would be tallyed up on a different leadboard page. Everyone would have a regular marp submission score and a tgmame submision score. Where all recordings submited to marp with a tgmame version would be accepted with only TG or harder settings, and count twoards your tg score. Anyone new to marp would still be able to upload with non tgmame versions and they would be scored as they have been scored. The tgmame leaderboard would just be a different way to compete.

This would eliminate the issue of spliting games that are marathoned with regular mame, since any tgmame recording would be scrutinized for correct non-marathoned settings, and the regular mame submisions could be used for default mame settings.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), July 04, 2000.

Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from original post on why TG leadebroard is a bad idea, from the Editor's Board (all comments within this and the subsequent posts have been scanned and edited to protect Editor-only sensitive material):

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A) It will shift focus almost exclusively to the new board, potentially leaving regular MARP as a 'dumping ground' for .inps not good enough for the tourney or the TG leaderboard.

B) I would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit.

C) TgMAME is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and encryption(flashes of Stig here, but he IS right in this respect), and if the MAME team asked us to withdraw its circulation we would be required to do so.

D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people spending more time hacking it.

E) More work for Zwaxy, because none of us have code access except for gb9, and anytime he plays with the code he breaks the Up Loads screen (sorry GB, that was low :) ) (does Pat have access to code, or only to the game database?)

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skito, excerpts from rebuttal

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Some comments on qt's adamant refusal to accept the possibility of a tg leaderboard... I realise i'm probably in the minority here but i have to address these issues. A) It will shift focus almost exclusively to the new board: Isn't that the point? i think having more focused towards tgmame recordings would eliminate a large amount of pausing and slowdowns, right now they are our major problem. B) I would estimate 95-97% of current MARP scores are legit. Agreed: but i'd say an average marp player can not playback 50% of the recordings because most people don't have the time to track down dos/windows/xmame versions to play them back. with tgmame we can consolidate the recordings so they'll be more playbackable and more accessable to all that come here (one world, one version) C) TgMAME is NOT a valid MAME derivative because of closed source and encryption. We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame recordings on the regular board, this is not an additional concern. D) Added focus to TG-only would increase the likelihood of people spending more time hacking it.

Tournament's are already focus enough to make this hacking probablity increase; plus, it's a lot easier to hack 8 recordings than to hack 100s that would be required to gain access to the top 10 leaderboard.

E) More work for Zwaxy

zwaxy's not doing any work right now :) This is the only major concern here that it might not be able to be done with the time allocated

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Q.T.Quazar, excerpts from rebuttal

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Your argument is somewhat persuasive along the 'one world, one version' lines, but you fail to realize that by allowing TG MAME only you then eliminate Mac, UNIX, and other OS users, who do not have TG MAME versions available. The only way to get it to them is to open the code. Catch 22.

Not mentioned in my original post is my belief that a TG MAME only MARP will not be effective at attracting new players. With may pick up a few more of the 'premiers,' but noone will come join to try out the new beta games. With some of the established score bases for previous betas at MARP, people won't challenge those either. No influx.

If we implement a new, TG-only leaderboard, we will essentially be saying that the old leaderboard is worthless, and the scores on it are not to be trusted. This is primarily why I am so vehemently opposed to the idea. Some of my .inps, like my own 500K+whatever on Magical Drop 3 (Challenge Mode Normal), are extremely, EXTREMELY hard to do, and I have no wish to try and replicate that score for another leaderboard. Opinion on this topic is of course going to be skewed by those who have less invested in the current leaderboard towards those who have more. While I imagine Mark would think a TG leaderboard to be a great idea, I doubt very much that BBH would. I have hundreds of hours invested in recording to MARP, and I don't wish my scores to be junked simply because a few players can't play fair.

I don't like the attitude that is beginning to prevail with some people at MARP that TGMAME, and even TG, is the answer to all our problems. TGMAME is an ILLEGAL VERSION of an emulator of QUESTIONABLE LEGALITY using ROMS which ARE ILLEGAL. There is no need to compound this problem further by pursuing routes of exclusivity .I can't stress this enough. Yes we use TGMAME in tournaments. Yes we use TGMAME to be sure of a player's skill. But the challenge motion is the last step needed towards proving a score, and it doesn't require TGMAME to be THE MAIN FOCUS, only part of the process. Your argument of "We face this same issues with tournaments and tgmame recordings on the regular board, this is not an additional concern." is the same logic as pretending that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Having TG only also puts the power of design for such a thing strictly in the hands of the coder(s). While I would not make any accusations, that's an exclusivity arrangement that is unacceptable to an open community like MARP.

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skito, excerpts from rebuttal

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About eliminating users by encouraging tgmame: We only eliminate them untill we can teach mark or whom ever how to compile it on that platform. It is easy as heck to compile xmame (probably about a hundred times less complex than dos mame), inserting the encryption code would be another issue but once it's compiled you can distribute the binaries, i know all of the xmame uploaders use linux so that binary will suffice for 100% of the unix users so far. I'll use the C) rebuttal again, this is already an issue with the tournaments, no mac players, no unix players...

yep nearly everything everyone does before they upload to marp is illegal. tgmame is sort of an illegal mame version. even krogman was uploading a version of tetris i knew he didn't own, plus that magix one... We take this risk because we love the games for one reason or another. I think the rom legality is a bit more criminal than the tgmame legality; Although two wrongs definitley don't make a right, one wrong and another minor wrong doesn't make it much more wronger. (i love debating with english majors :)

about not wanting to make recordings again for mag drop and bbh having tons of scores "supposed" he doesn't want to record again, This is what challenges are going to do: make someone honest (or not) attempt to make another bitchingly hard recording. anyone who's spent time in a game WILL be challenged to replay it. A tgleaderboard puts less pressure on the players rather than having their recordings challenged by the marp team. they can upgrade their recordings when they feel like it. although i like the challenge system we are proposing, ben's ideas are great (the minimum requirement is game dependant not a fixed percentage, this would depend on the jury being experts in the game another problem with selecting a jury of peers.)

With a tg leaderboard you don't have to make all your recordings again. There will be no denial of service for people that want to upload non tg recordings, they'd still be welcome as ever. And you'll still have your regular marp score as you would always have, you could even improve upon it.

As for losing your hard worked "invested" points. nothing is lost, there is just more opporunity to play. Everyone starts from scratch (except for the biased few that competed in tournaments or record with tg when ever they can) and i doubt anyone will have as many recordings as they do on the regular board.

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Q.T.Quazar, final comments:

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These excerpts from the Editor's Board originated as a discussion of whether or not we should introduce a challenge system at MARP, to which skito is somewhat opposed (he prefers a TG leaderboard instead), and which I am for. I can also post the discussion about that later, but need to make sure there's nothing in there to offend regular MARPers. I feel the challenge system would be a far better method of veryfying recordings and ensuring legitimacy. I will state, however, that I will not play under a TG-only leaderboard, if the code for TGMAME stays in the hands of a select few who do not have to answer to anyone else at the community. I may not like what Stig did at MARP, but he WAS right on a number of points. Just as MAME was meant to be open, so was MARP.

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Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), July 04, 2000.

QT, I would only be in agreement for the challenge rule if it could only be put in force by another player challenging in that game, per TG current rules. Also, that player would have to be within a certain range in order to challenge, like top 3-5...

TGonly leaderboard, no way in hell...

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), July 04, 2000.

yeah, my view is skewed, but to the TG leaderboard I say: NO.

I have uploaded recordings to this site for over two years. But because someone else cheats, I get kicked in the ass and say "Sorry, all those recordings you've UL'ed are worth nothing"? Am I to spend another two years regaining all those scores? This practically comes off as an insult, as I have always kept things honest. I don't use autofire, I don't play on framerates slower than 100%.

If a score of mine is in question, then tell me. I might be willing to re-record with a TGMAME (but like QT said, these versions aren't the be-all and end-all answer to cheating problems). But I simply do not have the time or desire to go through and re-do a couple hundred recordings. I'll just find better things to do with my time.

-BBH

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), July 04, 2000.

Like BBH, I too have been here for around two years, not that I upload all that often. But it still represents those two years or so, and to say that it's worthless, it makes you wonder "what's the point?"

I also agree that XMAME is a lot easier to compile than MAME, most required parts are included in most distributions. XMAME doesn't use either Allegro or SEAL, so they aren't needed.

But don't forget the foreign language versions of MAME out there, not everyone actually speaks english (like SNK :))

-- Barry Rodewald (bsr@hn.pl.net), July 04, 2000.

There really should NOT be a new leaderboard. There really should be a challenge system. We've been talking about one challenge / person with a jury of say Q.T.(rules coordinator), another editor, an expert in the game if available, and 2 other regular MARPers.

I feel there should be another rule: no unofficial versions. Betas should be permitted, but we really shouldn't allow unofficial versions (with all respects to those who speak a different language) because of the fact that it's another MAME we have to download. Betas and finals are enough thank you - adding unofficial versions would take forever to try to play something back for a confirmer - usually because it won't playback on an official MAME.

Thanks for reading my thoughts on the matter. GB9

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), July 05, 2000.

Well when bbh talks people listen... Chalk up another loss for a simple page that would list scores recorded in a secure mame. I still say an additional leaderboard calculation would not make old scores worse off, but obviously there are fears. The intention is to relieve many problems that sakuragi has pointed out that DO exist by encouraging more tgmame uploads. And they are not just (1) cheating problems; there are (2) playback problems with unofficial versions (is not allowing these going to be enforced?), (3) finding an old beta version that may not be on a diffs page someday and (4) allowing a casual marp viewer being able to playback 1000s of inps using just a few exes instead of requiring 100s of exes (and recreating/destroying registry settings for the windows versions) just do playback a the same 1000 inps.

I hope there is some form of encouragement towards fewer versions in the future. Perhaps we could debate a rule that if a game plays back fine (with good colors and gameplay) with the last final version then no other versions would be accepted...

Challenges will be accepted once we get a new version of tgmame.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), July 06, 2000.