Stop the madness!!

I would like to get some of your opinions on the current state of immigration in this country. The INS is basically an ineffective agency and our border efforts should be likened to the water intake on the Titanic. We are not alone in this problem as witnessed by the recent smuggling disaster in England, but at the rate of influx our system will be overloaded real damn soon. Are you angry that we have become the depository for the entire world? Are you concerned for your childrens future? Are you tired of paying more and more taxes to support this insanity? Speak up you intelligent people. I would like to hear some thoughtful response from you folks. To my way of thinking this is the most serious threat that this nation has ever been under. Make that the second most serious threat. The first would have to be reading the words of Mr. Al-d.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000

Answers

BBBBuuuuttttt ..."Y2k" was the "greatest threat". GARY and ED said so.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 28, 2000.

That was last year! Unlike the Y2K projections this threat can be seen on a daily basis throughout the country. The Elian Gonzales fiasco has caused me to pause on our foolish immigration laws as pertains to Cuban nationals that manage to set foot on U.S. soil. The reasons for this would seem to have evaporated given the recent kissing up to Fidel by the Clinton administration.

Have you ever listened to our illustrious INS chief attempt to explain why she and her understaffed army cant control our borders? With this kind of sub par leadership our nations freedom is destined to disenfranchise before our eyes. How would you like to live in California, where a MILLION illegal immigrants land on a yearly basis? Do the math.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000.

DO WHAT FACT SAY,S=DUPEE.S--DON,T READ MY POST,S!!! fact@fan.attic is looking out for you!! is fact@fan a real-name?? too long in the attic??? gee are the poor coming to america,are they tired of working for the american owned slave-factories in thier lands?? yup ,blame the poor.---not the ELITE=OPPRESSOR,S!

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 28, 2000.

Why are Immigrants on Welfare?

The immigration law forbids the admission of any immigrant who is likely to become a public charge [Immigration and Nationality Act Sec. 212A(4)(a)]. Yet many immigrants are on welfare, one out of five of them, in fact, according to the Census Bureau s Current Population Survey. If the law forbids admitting immigrants who are likely to become a public charge why are there so many immigrants on welfare?

Some immigrants are exempt from the requirement: refugees, asylees, and all amnestied illegal aliens. More accurately, the Congress has decided that the American people will serve as the sponsors for these immigrants, and pick up the tab for their support. All other immigrants, however, must still pass the public charge test and, with the exception of some highly-skilled professionals, have a U.S. sponsor or sponsors willing to pledge their income to support them.

Before a potential migrant from abroad receives an immigration visa, American consular officers are supposed to evaluate whether he is likely to become a public charge, and, if so, to deny the visa. The consular officer is supposed to take into account a variety of factors: the amount of support the sponsor can give, the resources and skills of the applicant, and any special conditions (such as age or infirmity) that might affect the applicant s need for support. The Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act of 1996 set a new legal standard for the evaluation: the sponsor of the applicant must have an annual income of at least 125 percent of the federally designated poverty level taking into concideration his family size and the number of immigrants he is sponsoring. There are several problems with this standard.

The sponsorship income level, only 25 percent higher than the poverty level, is so low that it does not prevent immigrants from going on welfare; in fact, it almost guarantees it if the immigrant does not succeed in finding work. Since eligibility for some welfare programs kicks in before one s income drops to 125 percent of poverty level, immigrants and their sponsors can easily also be eligible for welfare. This is one of the ways in which immigration law is adding to the poor population of this country.

Not only are aliens who are likely to become public charge not supposed to be admitted as permanent immigrants, but also, if an immigrant does go on the dole, he is supposed to become liable for deportation. Immigration law allows, on paper, that immigrants who do go on welfare can be deported for violating the conditions under which they were admitted, that is, that they would not become public charges [Immigration and Nationality Act Sec. 237A(5)].

But these provisions are not enforced. the most recently available INS data show that since 1980, only 12 people have been deported for having become public charges; today it happens so rarely that the INS no longer even publishes separate statistics on public charge as a cause for deportation.

New proposed regulations from the INS would not allow for most forms of welfare to count toward the public charge test. Food Stamps, WIC, immunizations, prenatal care, emergency medical assistance, disaster relief, nutrition programs, housing assistance, energy assistance, childcare services, foster care and adoption assistance, transportation vouchers, educational assistance, job training programs, Medicaid for the non-institutionalized, public housing, free or reduced school lunch, public shelters, health clinics, and any cash welfare programs that are not the family s sole source of income -- none of these welfare programs count as becoming a public charge . In essence, an immigrant can be accused with having become a public charge only if he is completely dependent on the government for his entire cash income [Federal Register, March 26, 1999, p 2868].

What's more, administrative rulings [Matter of B--, 3 I.&N. Dec. 323 (AG and BIA 1948)] have held that an immigrant cannot be held responsible for going on welfare unless the welfare agencies have sent the immigrant a bill for their services, demanded payment, and the immigrant refuses to pay. Since welfare agencies are interested in having a larger, not smaller, clientele, no agencies do this, meaning that no immigrant can be charged with violating the public charge provisions that might lead to deportation.

With immigration laws that allow aliens to enter and stay in the United States while living on the public dole, it is no wonder that the number of poor people is 40 percent higher in the 1990s than it was in the 1970s. In the United States, 35.6 million people live in poverty (13.3 percent of the entire population). Even though immigrants are 10 percent of the population, they are 20 percent of the poor population. If we are to have any hope of reducing poverty in the U.S., our immigration laws must be revised and returned to the sensible practice of excluding aliens who are likely to become public charges and to deport those who do. FAIR, 7/99.

This subject should be worthy of much more thought than who was right or wrong about Y2K. Mr. Al-d sir you are a raving lunatic and should be under constant medical supervision and control. You are most likely in seclusion and for that we should be grateful. You appear to be testing the mettle of the moderators of this uncensored forum, as you would be banned from most sites that I have seen. At first I found you to be somewhat entertaining, like a cur dog on LSD. Lately you have taken a turn for the worst if indeed that is humanly possible. If you are truly a man of Christ then religion as we know it has dissolved into something ugly and distasteful.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000.

Sorry "the" I don't not agree with your premise. This country was built on the strong, honest labor of immigrants. In fact, to get down to it, we are all immigrants. Immigrant labor takes jobs that we (or our kids) do not want and will not work. They come with hope, they sacrifice and try to build a future. I say, more power to them!

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), June 28, 2000.

Jose, in the broad context I agree with your immigrant value system. My Grandfather emigrated from Europe in the early 1900s, as did many. The difference is they entered this country legally, brought skills and a work ethic to the table, and had a strong desire to be a productive and proud American. The current flood of illegals bears no resemblance to the immigrants of yesteryear and instead sneak in, bring unspeakable baggage, siphon off our precious and costly resources from public assistance, and care nothing for this country of ours, in general.

How about those Miami Cubans, screaming how ashamed they are to be Americans? Who said they are Americans? As an American, I am ashamed that our government has allowed our nation to slide this far downwards.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000.

My husbands parents came over in the 1920's. They had to pass a health check, have a marketable skill and have someone who would see to them until they were able to find work and make their own way.

Sorry, Jose, but some actually try and get here to deliver their babies so they can get to stay, and draw assistance. My nephew works on the AZ border and he has told us plenty about the new imimgrants.

And I'm so disgusted with the Miami Cubans who are "so ashamed to be an Americans," that frankly I don't know why they don't just leave.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 28, 2000.

It angers me that an illegal alien injured in a chase somehow managed to finagle $750,000 of free medical care while my elderly mother who has worked a lifetime supporting "the system" gets no assistance whatsoever to pay for her monthly medications.

It angers me that children in California are educationally shortchanged because lessons are taught in both Engligh AND Spanish to accomodate the illegals' offspring.

On the flip side of the coin, I'm grateful for the illegals because who else would readily do the manual labor that keeps our food prices low?

It's a double-edged sword. I'd probably feel better about the illegals if we took care of our OWN first! When the hungry, disabled, and homeless of this country are properly cared for and our children are properly educated, then we can worry about saving the rest of the world, but first things first.

It's a tough question.

-- LunaC (TakeCareOfOurOwn@home.com), June 28, 2000.

LunaC you have said, in a few short sentences what most of us feel. Thanks!

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000.

How dare you publish on the cpr forum!

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 28, 2000.

LunaC, You have to look at the value of hybrids... in plants and animals it works the same way. In the long run genetic diversity is the way to go... even with the temporary problems it brings, it is what has made our country strong.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 28, 2000.

The (fact@fan.attic)

Hey, forget the Cubans, I myself am often ashamed at being an American with Clinton and Reno's corruptions and media manipulation.

As far as your bigotry, see my response to you in your earlier post concerning Elian's return...I would trade you for a Mexican or Cuban anyday, lol....

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 28, 2000.

NetGhost - I agree and I have no problem with genetic diversity. As Martha would say, "It's a good thing." -g-

I object to the fact that our resources are being diverted from the people *already* here who have worked hard to build the current system or are in need of its assistance in favor of others who have made no contribution whatsoever other than to make it across our borders.

Let them come...as long as they don't rob the system once they're here.

-- LunaC (InAllFairness@home.come), June 29, 2000.

Martha was wise beyond her youth.. Is that the point?

Ok... I don't like the fact that a lot of new people in this country don"t speak our laungage... but so what?... sooner or later they will, and that is the benift to all of us.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 29, 2000.

Look at it this way. I have been told all my life, and I believe this, that you should bloom where you are planted. If you don't like your neighborhood, try and improve it, and that you should fight in your own country to help make a better life. If everyone who is over crowded, unemployed, oppressed, or disadvantaged in his own country, comes to this country, soon this country will all be over crowded, and more will be unemployed, oppressed or disadvantaged.

If Ceasar Chevas, or the two fellows who won the Emma Goldman award this year for fighting to save the forests in Mexico, or the man who was killed for creating a fuss about Shell Oil's pollution in Africa, had all come to the U. S. or UK, then their countries would be poorer as a result of their immigration. The dictators would have no opposition if everyone just left to have an easier life here.

If the U.S. government became oppressive, and if guns and property were confiscated and freedoms were eroded, I'll be damned if I'd move to a more attractive country. This is home, and I'd want to stay and fight for a better life, even if it were just an underground movement.

When the colonists came to America, they were British subjects, and distance didn't improve their lot very much. They suffered inumerable hardships. They had to fight and die to gain independence, that which we will be celebrating in a few days.

If the Miami Cubans had stayed in Cuba and tried to make a difference, maybe Castro wouldn't still be calling the shots. But it was easier for them to come to the U.S. where they could run their big mouthes constantly and then condemn the U.S. for not allowing them to take another man's a child for their political agenda. They're quite brave about standing up to Castro here in the safety of the U. S.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 29, 2000.

Martha was wise beyond her youth.. Is that the point?

The reference was to Martha Stewart and her ubiquitous tag line "It's a good thing." The point is that diversity is...a GOOD THING. I thought that was clear in my original statement.

Ok... I don't like the fact that a lot of new people in this country don"t speak our laungage... but so what?... sooner or later they will, and that is the benift to all of us.

It's not about language. It's about limited resources unnecessarily being misdirected.

-- LunaC (PayAttention@simple.com), June 29, 2000.

On the flip side of the coin, I'm grateful for the illegals because who else would readily do the manual labor that keeps our food prices low?

I used to buy this excuse Luna, but no more. Where are the low food prices? Where are the reduced prices of homes, when the largest labor pool in new home building are Mexicans? Tyson chicken plants? On and on -- where are the reduced prices on our consumer goods? Why has your social insecurity/medicare deductions gone UP?

Where are those profit$ going? Certainly not to US citizens. Not to the elderly and this nations poor that have PAID into the system. Their reward for being loyal citizens is welfare reform. Children with disabilities wiped from the roles to make room for the illegals that dilute the american patriotism that kept this country FUNDED.

Give it a few more years -- MIA-COOBA in FL will be the norm.

Give them zero benefits and they won't have to close the borders. heheh -- they are laughing all the way to the bank!

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), June 29, 2000.

FactFinder, I would like to thank you profusely for demonstrating what is currently wrong with our country. I do not know what kind of person you are or where you live. But you are very quick to label me a bigot because I have committed the unspeakable sin of daring to discuss the state of immigration in this country. You sir are a perfect example of the reckless thinking that has allowed this to happen. History will not treat you very kindly for your validation of the unrestrained influx of illegal immigrants into our great nation. I hope your children and grandchildren will understand. Do you have any children? You dont need to trade me for a Mexican or Cuban. They are readily available.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 29, 2000.

DoomerStomper - I used to buy this excuse Luna, but no more. Where are the low food prices? Where are the reduced prices of homes, when the largest labor pool in new home building are Mexicans? Tyson chicken plants? On and on -- where are the reduced prices on our consumer goods?

Consider: If we no longer had cheap immigrant labor working for minimum wage and had to somehow find U.S. laborers from the lazy-ass, air-conditioned, Yuppified masses, I suspect they'd demand a huge wage increase to perform the grunt work. Those increased production costs would be passed on to the consumer and we'd be paying a LOT more than what we do now.

Why has your social insecurity/medicare deductions gone UP?

To pay for the welfare bandits and to subsidize the Big Guys' tax breaks and "pork" projects, of course! Let's face it, those in the Middle Class get screwed royally no matter which way you slice it.

-- LunaC (LetsRevolt@home.com), June 29, 2000.

LetsRevolt@home.com heh heh -- got that right!

Goods will only go up in price in relation to greed and demand. If the corps get to greedy, a LOT of ppl just quit buying. I personally won't pay $3. a head for winter lettuce and shriveled up veggies. I do without if the price is outrageous. (my revolt)

I think the same would apply. Those that can afford, and don't mind being suckered will pay. Those that can't/won't will drive the prices down. Either way, the corporate importing of illegals would disappear.

Do you think if cheap imports disappeared now, ppl would pay through the nose for what they can get cheap now? They'd just quit buying. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

They're lining their pockets and picking ours. Is there an answer? I boycott every business that employs illegals. I'm as vocal as I can get with business owners, etc.

People around here hate the illegals, but are too polite to say anything. The more vocal we all are in our communities, the better the chance that we can make a difference. If nothing less -- at least the illegals are reminded that they are NOT WELCOME -- don't get too COMFORTABLE HERE! I do -- every chance I get :-)

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), June 29, 2000.

fact@fan.attic, I'm not labeling you as a bigot for your discussions of INS policies or enforcement, those are certainly open to criticism, and I actually concur with parts of your post above.

My comment regarding bigotry was from your post in the Elian thread below:

As of 8pm EDT, Elian is back in Cuba. Now, if we could only get the rest of those South Florida transplants back to the Island. They should be happy to leave seeing as how ashamed they are to be Americans.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 28, 2000.

Anytime a sentence goes "the rest of those...transplants", bigotry is at work. Although bigotry rarely recognizes itself, in the U.S. it frequently comes draped in an "American" flag...

No problems with your points about INS enforcment. But ya might wann trace your ancestory before you start sending whole "groups" back....

-- FactFinder (FactFinde!@bzn.com), June 29, 2000.