Supreme Court to Rule on Partial-Birth Ban Abortion opponents have worked hard for passage of such restrictions as requiring teenagers to involve a parent in the abortion decision and for bans on so-called partial-birth abortions. The latter issue has focused public attention on abortions performed after the first trimester of pregnancy. The Supreme Court is poised to rule on the constitutionality of Nebraskas ban on partial-birth abortions by the end of the month. Nearly identical bans are in place in nearly 30 states. The ruling will be the courts first major decision on abortion in eight years and could significantly reduce womens access to abortion after the first trimester. In The Times Poll, 65% of respondents said abortions in the second trimester should not be legal. Female respondents feel more strongly about the issue: 72% believe second-trimester abortions should be illegal, compared with 58% of men. The poll shows that while more than four out of five respondents support abortion when a womans physical health is at risk, just slightly more than half feel the same when it is a matter of a womans emotional health. Support for abortions to protect a womans mental health is strongest among single women, 64% of whom believe it should be allowed.

Supreme Court to Rule on Partial-Birth Ban

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 19, 2000

Answers

The law is not about public opinion.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), June 19, 2000.

FutureShock,

If only the bleeding-heart, anti-gun, liberals would remember your words instead of trying to trash my Second Amendment rights.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2000.

The law is not about public opinion.

WRONG!

From the article....

These conflicting perspectives make abortion a particularly tricky issue for politicians. President Clinton attempted to straddle the ambivalence in his first presidential campaign by saying he wanted abortions to be safe, legal and rare. So far, neither Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush nor Democratic rival Al Gore have found a similarly deft formulation.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 19, 2000.

Hey Stop- If you're so against abortion, don't have one.

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), June 19, 2000.

Hey Stop- If you're so against abortion, don't have one.

Too late for that I'm afraid.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 19, 2000.

Anyone opposed to birth control and abortion is a fu**ing idiot (literally). The more religious a person, the stupider they are; the less connected to reality they are. Christians are the stupidest. (Well maybe next to Moslems. Well maybe next to Jews. Well maybe next to the south asian wogs...) I hope the NWO wipes all your asses out.

Anyone who is still religious after puberty has demonstrated that they are an automaton -- a sheep.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 19, 2000.

Hey,religious Freak,if we outlawed Breeding like Rats,we would not have any Abortions.Your merciful "GOD" is the biggest Murderer of them all.Now get back to Your Idolatry and prey to this Monster that try to create something and messed up big Time.

-- GODzilla (does@not.matter), June 19, 2000.

Abortion is Murder, plain and simple. No amount of ridicule, belittlement or name calling on your part will change that fact.

I thank the Lord God above, minds and hearts are being softened and late term abortion is now being seen by 72% of women for what it is. A horrible method of birth control.

Thank you Heavenly Father.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 19, 2000.

Obviously this person???? has an obsessive/addictive personality. Obviously he knows only how to harp on this one slanted view of a legal medical procedure. He's come on this forum again to do a little shit stirring.

Hey buddy, you have a right to your opinion, you've stated it long and loud. You've posted your pictures. You've attempted to lay on guilt, shame and remorse. You've had your say, now it's getting boring. You've dredged up my old posts and several others. I have nothing more to say except visit The Church of Euthanasia web site and you will find lots of folks on there to argue with. Check it out.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 19, 2000.

Dear Stop: Christian idiots think that abortion is murder. Those of us with intelligence and common sense don't think so. F** your so-called "GOD". Can't you think for yourself, you stupid, ignorant, puny-ass brain sheep? Christianity is the biggest scam foisted upon the western world for 2000 years. It's all about power, but since you are so stupid as to "believe" you are too stupid to realize what Christianity is all about.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 19, 2000.

Hey J, watch your mouth about "bleeding heart anti-gun liberals. I'm a liberal Libertarian, and I'm *anti* any more gun laws. I'm also sick of politicians pandering to the gun control crowd because kids have decided to declare war on their fellow students.

Long-live our Second Amendment rights!! Long-live our rights to a safe, legal abortion. Long-live our freedom of speech. Did I miss anything important.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 19, 2000.

Long-live our Second Amendment rights!! Long-live our rights to a safe, legal abortion. Long-live our freedom of speech. Did I miss anything important.

Long live everthing but the babes in the wombs I guess, eh Gilda?

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 19, 2000.

gilda,

Our right to bear arms doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Our right to free speech doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. The "right" to abort a baby infringes the baby's right to life.

You missed something very important.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2000.

"The "right" to abort a baby infringes the baby's right to life."

Not true. A fetus no more has a right to life than an appendix.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 20, 2000.

A few quick remarks... being anti abortion is not anti birth control... (that wouldn't even make sense). I am against using abortion as birth control.

And an appendix will never have it's own heart, brain, etc. In fact, the fetus has all of that including it's own appendix and more. Comparing a fetus to an internal organ is, well, I won't be rude.

To all you "choice"ers... the choice is BEFORE you have sex that you know could cause an unwanted pregnancy. Why not be imaginative and try something that doesn't procreate? I can think of many fun and satisfying things. Abortions are for people who do just what they want and don't expect to suffer the consequences when things don't turn out their way or become inconvenient. Whiiiiine.

"I'll drive drunk, until I kill someone, but that's ok, it's my decision and no one else's now so what the heck? Bartender, gimme another, make it a double. And keep 'em comin... I just can't help it!"

Makes perfect sense. But I wonder what a judge would say when this SOB hits the road and kills a premature newborn on the way home from the hospital? But, you know, only the mother can make those life and death choices. She chooses, he's a murderer.

Lot's more to say... save it for a rainy day... (if we ever have any more here in North Florida (ouch!)..

Sorry in advance for being so out and out... no time and too much to say... but..please..

-- keep the faith.... (booann77@hotmail.com), June 20, 2000.

Tarzan,

Your comment is so callous as to be nauseating.

Where in your life did you become so confused as to believe that a woman's choice of convenience outweighs a baby's right to live? Have you never held a baby in your arms? Have you no children of your own?

The smokescreen of calling a baby in the womb a fetus may have worked to cloud your judgement of what is right and what is wrong, but it is, nonetheless, still a smokescreen. Some minds must be more easily clouded than others, as the propaganda has not only convinced you that it is not a baby in the womb, but that it is something akin to an appendix.

What will you and your ilk do when Roe vs. Wade is finally overturned? Where will your argument stand when the "right" of a mother to kill her unwanted child is no longer there? You will be forced to see that the "right" to kill your child out of convenience only existed in your clouded little mind.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2000.

"Have you never held a baby in your arms? Have you no children of your own?"

Sure, I love babies. I don't have any children of my own yet. But a baby is as different from a fetus as an apple is from an apple blossom.

"The smokescreen of calling a baby in the womb a fetus may have worked to cloud your judgement of what is right and what is wrong, but it is, nonetheless, still a smokescreen."

Actually, I lay the blame at the feet of medical science, basic anatomy, and human biology. A fetus and its mother have a parasitic relationship, meaning that the fetus takes nutrients from its mother. Until very late in its development, it is not capable of sustaining life in and of itself.

"What will you and your ilk do when Roe vs. Wade is finally overturned?"

I will work day and night to protect a woman's right to choose, regardless of Roe v. Wade.

"Where will your argument stand when the "right" of a mother to kill her unwanted child is no longer there?"

It will still be correct. Facts are facts and do not change according to your likes and dislikes.

"You will be forced to see that the "right" to kill your child out of convenience only existed in your clouded little mind."

Will this happen before or after NWO takes over?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 20, 2000.

Ape

meaning that the fetus takes nutrients from its mother.

Yes she is a a mother.

She is a mother to this precious life from conception to it's death and beyond. Whether it's death is due to natural causes or by that of a pair of shears inserted into the base of it's skull to stop it's life prematurely, she will always be a mom.

Until very late in its development, it is not capable of sustaining life in and of itself. So what? What about all the people placed in intensive care units at hospitals. They in many cases are unable to sustain life on their own. That doesn't necessarily mean they will remain that way. What if they do remain that way? It doesn't make them any less human. The same goes for an unborn baby.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 20, 2000.

Tarzan,

You wrote, "A fetus and its mother have a parasitic relationship, meaning that the fetus takes nutrients from its mother. Until very late in its development, it is not capable of sustaining life in and of itself".

A breast-feeding baby takes nutrients from its mother. Until later in its development, it is not capable of feeding itself.

Should it be legal to kill infants until they are able to feed themselves?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2000.

"What about all the people placed in intensive care units at hospitals. They in many cases are unable to sustain life on their own. That doesn't necessarily mean they will remain that way. What if they do remain that way?"

A fetus takes its nutrients directly from the body of another living being. A fetus, because it is not capable of sentience or self- sustanance, is a potential seperate being.

"A breast-feeding baby takes nutrients from its mother. Until later in its development, it is not capable of feeding itself. Should it be legal to kill infants until they are able to feed themselves?"

A breast-feeding baby can take nutrients from other sources, unlike a fetus. Should it be illegal for a woman to refuse to breast-feed a baby?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 20, 2000.

A fetus takes its nutrients directly from the body of another living being.

Being fed by an I.V. tube or an umbilical cord. Whats the difference? In neither case, to use your own words: it[they] is[aren't] not capable of sustaining life in and of itself[themselves].

Other than being inside the womb, there is zero difference!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 20, 2000.

Tarzan,

You wrote, "A breast-feeding baby can take nutrients from other sources, unlike a fetus. Should it be illegal for a woman to refuse to breast-feed a baby"?

A baby can RECEIVE nutrients from sources other than the breast, but it can TAKE nutrients from no source, breast or otherwise.

No, it should not be illegal for a woman to refuse to breast-feed a baby. Should it be illegal for a woman to refuse to feed a baby?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2000.

"Being fed by an I.V. tube or an umbilical cord. Whats the difference? In neither case, to use your own words: it[they] is [aren't] not capable of sustaining life in and of itself[themselves]."

A fetus is dependant on the life forces of a single human being for all sustenance. Ever heard the term "eating for two"? A fetus survives and grows at the expense of the woman's vitality. Pregnancy is very stressful on a woman's body. Contrast this with the coma patient in the hospital.

"A baby can RECEIVE nutrients from sources other than the breast, but it can TAKE nutrients from no source, breast or otherwise."

Actually, newborn mammals have an inate suckling reflex. Put something near their mouths and they will latch onto it as though it were a nipple.

"No, it should not be illegal for a woman to refuse to breast-feed a baby. Should it be illegal for a woman to refuse to feed a baby?"

No, it shouldn't. There are other people who can and will feed a baby. But there is no one but the pregnant female who can feed a fetus. Because of this, we must preserve a woman's right to choose whether or not she remains pregnant.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 20, 2000.

A fetus is dependant on the life forces of a single human being for all sustenance. So? You still haven't shown me any significant differance between an unborn baby and a comatose patient in an intensive care unit. The only difference in the eyes of the law is one you may legally kill and the other is murder.

A fetus survives and grows at the expense of the woman's vitality. WRONG! You evidently haven't been around any/many women wanting to keep their unborn babies. If you had, you would see them 'glowing' with happiness AND vitality!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 20, 2000.

"You still haven't shown me any significant differance between an unborn baby and a comatose patient in an intensive care unit. The only difference in the eyes of the law is one you may legally kill and the other is murder."

I can see I'll have to go slow with this one.

A fetus draws its sustenance from the body of a single person. A comatose patient draws his or her sustenance from the work produced by a team of dozens of medical professionals. This work can at times be physically difficult, but does not require the physical sacrifice of blood, oxygen, nutrients, or bodily space that pregnancy does. Moreover, hospitals can refer npatients they do not feel equipped to care for properly to another hospital. For instance, an understaffed hospital can send a coma patient requiring long-term care to a nearby hospital. A woman with serious health concerns does not have that option.

"A fetus survives and grows at the expense of the woman's vitality. WRONG! You evidently haven't been around any/many women wanting to keep their unborn babies. If you had, you would see them 'glowing' with happiness AND vitality!"

Oh please, spare me your patronizing Norman Rockwell ideas of motherhood. Even women who want to be mothers recognize that their body is losing nutrients to the fetus. They feel tired and have chronic body aches (particularly back aches), chronic edema, chronic skin fissures. Their hair and nails become brittle unless they take special formulations of vitamins, and even then it's still a problem. That cool "glow" pregnant women seem to have is often caused by morning sickness (as my sister-in-law says, "You throw up for two hours in the morning, you'll glow like that too!"). The hormone rollercoaster gives many women pre and post partum depression. Many develop health problems such as diabetes and anemia, but even without these dire conditions, pregnancy changes a woman's body forever. Pregnancy is not a stroll in the park. It is physically demanding, it is a sacrifice. We should respect that and not force the burden of pregnancy on those who don't want carry it.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 20, 2000.

Tarzan, first, are you a woman or a man (names don't always represent gender)? If you are a man, what the #$@% are you talking about? You can discuss pregnancy, wanted or unwanted, when YOU are or have been pregnant. No matter how many women you know, or even how many babies you have delivered, or kids you have, if you are male, I think maybe this discussion should be left to the experts, you know, the one's who have been pregnant. In any event, I suppose you have a right to have an opinion... just like I (being female) have a right to tell a football coach how to play the game because I've seen a couple of games on TV! I have the right, and I have the right to be ignorant.

But what really prompts me to respond is your statement "Pregnancy is not a stroll in the park. It is physically demanding, it is a sacrifice. We should respect that and not force the burden of pregnancy on those who don't want carry it."

If they don't want that burden, let these women show a little self control. Easy. Short of rape, no one but the willing female partner will force the burden of pregancy on themselves.

The sacrifice and burdens of pregnancy and children (if the child is not aborted) are well known (at least by most adults). They CHOSE this risk of pregnancy and now they "don't want to". Oops. "It's not my fault and my body will get all stretched out and I planned to go to Paris next summer and the father won't help me." Get the Raid and get rid of those unwanted pests!!

Until recently with this live birth abortion, I didn't even realize that abortions could be performed after the first trimester. (God help us all...) If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant and does so anyway, and then waits three months (or more) to "fix" the problem, she demonstrated little intelligence and is negligent to her partner, herself, and the unborn child.

Sorry about my ranting, but this stuff upsets me. Accountability, responsibility, and respect are lacking in anyone who thinks it is ok to recklessly get pregant and then whine about how physically demanding it is and what sacrifices have to be made; and all for one night (day) of pleasure.

That's just MNSHO, but I accept responsibility for it, and I respect myself for my value system, and I'll be accountable to those who read this and tell me I'm full of #$@%. On that note please...

-- keep the faith... (booann77@hotmail.com), June 20, 2000.

Keep,

I think Tarzan is foolish at best in this issue, however, I wouldn't decrease the worth of his opinion based on the fact that he is male. (assumption) I really have a problem with the segregation of society that occurs when we say someone isn't "real" enough to understand someone else's point of view. Should female MDs be unable to discuss impotence with male patients because they can't understand? Black people not be able to discuss white people's problems because they can't understand?

Where does it end?

All told in this situation I think a good old ad hominem,

"Tarzan, you are an idiot" would be more in order here.

Ranting on without direction,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 20, 2000.

As long as a fetus is in the womb, it is a fetus. If the mother were shot dead through brain, and no one attended to the fetus immediately, the fetus would die. The fetus is dependent on the mother. Actually the fetus is a parasite until it draws its first breath. Then it is an individual infant, able to breath, bawl, and eat on its own.

I advise you men who are so opposed to abortion, to not get pregnant, and to not get anyone else pregnant. If you're not the one carrying the fetus, you have no right to make the decisions. Take you bleeding heart baloney and do something useful like helping take care of unwanted children.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 20, 2000.

Stop, Stop: What you don't get is that there are more and more of us who do not share your (christian) delusions about there being a "God." Thus your rantings about "God's words, 'truths', wishes..." are immaterial to those of us who are reality-based. Do you get it, or are you too f*ing stupid to get it? Your ranting about "God" and what he/she/it (heshit) supposedly has to say is meaningless null, void, immaterial, superfluous, non sequitur ... to more and more of us.

Of course you don't realize how pathetic and stupid you appear, and how we hold you deluded fools in contempt.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 20, 2000.

I have six children, all of them wanted. Tarzan is dead on about pregnancy. Men always seem to think it's a walk in the park but it isn't. Pregnancy is really hard on your body. If you're not reasonably healthy, you stand a good chance of having an unhealthy baby, miscarrying, or getting seriously ill yourself.

-- Earth Mother (mother@ofsix.com), June 20, 2000.

Keep the faith, you're the one who has no idea what you're talking about. You make it sound like having an abortion is a decision someone makes without thinking about it as a form of birth control. What a crock. If you had any idea what you were talking about, you would know that the abortion itself actually hurts like hell. It's damn painful, even with the anesthetic. No one in her right mind would choose to have an abortion rather than use birth control, especially after having one. Women have abortions because they don't have any other options.

I had an abortion two years ago. My husband and I were both in graduate school at the time, both of us had our educations financed through loans, research grants, and scholarships. We'd been married for three years at the time. I was on the pill, but my doctor neglected to tell me that certain antibiotics can render the pill less effective.

The abortion was not an easy decision for us to make. However, there was no way that we could have started a family at that point and faced up to our obligations to the university where we were studying, the students we were teaching, and the educational funding we'd received. We realized that starting a family at that point would have been extremely selfish.

-- Keep Abortion Legal (not@all.sorry), June 20, 2000.

Keep Abortion Legal,

Obligations to the university? Do you think the university gives a rat's a** about you? You killed your unborn child because of educational funding; because a scholarship and a grant were more important than your own child.

You have the audacity to sign off as "not@all.sorry". If your womb is still able to carry children after the abortion, I bet there will come a day when you will be sorrier than you can imagine. It will be some time after your first baby is born. The guilt will hit you like a freight train.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2000.

A,

Does the phrase, "gnashing of teeth" mean anything to you?



It will.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2000.

Tarzan,

I asked, "Should it be illegal for a woman to refuse to feed a baby"?

You answered, "No, it shouldn't. There are other people who can and will feed a baby. But there is no one but the pregnant female who can feed a fetus. Because of this, we must preserve a woman's right to choose whether or not she remains pregnant".

Are you saying that it should be legal for a woman not to feed her baby because there is someone else who can?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2000.

Y2J, your post makes me doubt that you've been to graduate school. Both my husband and I had positions as Graduate Teaching Fellows. In addition to our studies and research, we were both responsible for teaching undergraduate classes. We chose to put off starting a family because it would have meant letting down our students, our departments, our families, our futures, and ourselves. Maybe you take your commitments lightly, but fortunately, not everyone shares your point of view.

-- Keep Abortion Legal (not@all.sorry), June 21, 2000.

Keep Abortion Legal,

No, I haven't been to graduate school. Are you implying that you are better than I am because you have?

You stated, "We chose to put off starting a family because it would have meant letting down our students, our departments, our families, our futures, and ourselves".

Is your idea of the future a happy family, or two incomes and a lot of stuff? I'm betting that in your life, education=future employment=material wealth. You killed your baby so you could have more stuff. Wow.

My children think that it's very fortunate that I take my commitment to them very seriously, and that I take my commitment to acquiring more material things lightly. Too bad for your unborn child that your priorities are so warped.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2000.

I haven't been to graduate school, but I did have quite a few TA's while getting my BS. These people put in a lot of hours on their own studies and took on courses to boot and were used by the university I attended to offer more times for certain courses, smaller classes, and probably to save on salaries for full time faculty. Some of them were pretty bad, but most were decent, and a few were absolutely outstanding. One TA in particular made the difference for me in a difficult course I took which was outside my major. He took a lot of extra time and effort to ensure that I understood the material, and I went from barely passing to getting a B+.

"Is your idea of the future a happy family, or two incomes and a lot of stuff? I'm betting that in your life, education=future employment=material wealth. You killed your baby so you could have more stuff. Wow. My children think that it's very fortunate that I take my commitment to them very seriously, and that I take my commitment to acquiring more material things lightly. Too bad for your unborn child that your priorities are so warped."

J, you're making a lot of assumptions here. The lady hasn't said anything about her idea of future, you're simply condemning her out of hand for what you THINK it might be. Maybe you feel inferior because you didn't go to grad school?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingignthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 21, 2000.

Keep abortion,

My wife and I both went through grad school, and had two kids while doing so. I agree completely that it was HARD, but it wasn't un-doable. As an example, one of us had to get to the daycare by 6pm or they started charging 10 bucks every 10 minutes, meaning we were poor, but still alive.

But was it worth it? I can't wait to get home at the end of the day to be with the kids, they truly make life complete and enjoyable. If I miss a day of work, I mind, but not *that* much ;-) .

Did I lose anything career-wise? Yes, as I couldn't devote 100% of the time I could have to my work, but OTOH I think the trade off was well worth it. If I dropped dead tomorrow, I am quite confident someone could carry on anything I am doing at work competently. My kids on the other hand would NOT be a responsibility I'd want to turf to someone else.

I won't criticize your decision, not being in your shoes, but would like others who might be considering your actions to know that in hindsight I'd have to say that the single best decision I ever made was to become a father, regardless of the (temporary) hardships at the time.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 21, 2000.

Tarzan,

Yes, I am making some assumptions. She can steer me in the right direction if I'm off course.

You said, "Maybe you feel inferior because you didn't go to grad school"?

No, I feel inferior to no man. It's the way that I'm put together. Some say it is a fault, others say it is an attribute.

In an earlier post, I asked if you were saying that it should be legal for a woman not to feed her baby because someone else could. Could you answer that question for me?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2000.

Keep abortion legal... you are right, it must be a painstaking decision and I'm sure the surgery is no picnic, nor the everlasting physical and emotional scars. I'm sorry for your grief.

However, if I'm driving in my car and I'm doing everything I can to keep from getting hit and I get hit and suffer severe injuries, can I take it back? I may have to quit my job, depend on others, go thru horrible therapies... you get the point. Stuff happens, including getting pregnant while on birth control and taking antibiotics. I have never been prescribed anti-biotics without the doctor telling me specifically to use an alternative form of birth control. You knew the risk of pregnancy and you chose to take the chance even tho all your students, etc. depended on you. You lost the bet and didn't pay the piper. You're free and clear except for those memories of making and following through on this decision.

I am sorry for any man or woman that has to make these kinds of decisions. I have always been extremely careful (and I don't mean abstinence) and haven't been faced with these issues personally. It is, no doubt, easy for me to say what I think is right. Kind of like Tarzan talking about pregnancy issues. We can only guess what these issues mean to those who have personally dealt with them.

Nonetheless (??), whether it's an unwanted pregancy that interferes with your plans, or an accident, or illness or death of a family member, we can't always have what we planned for or want. Wanting to postpone a family is commendable, but it didn't work that way... of course ultimately you got your way. Whatever decision you made, you will live with. But don't expect that I think it's ok to terminate a pregnancy for convenience, other obligations, money, marriage (or lack thereof), etc. That's MY choice.

My thoughts may be ignorant, or whatever someone else said, but I am a woman who has had an active sex life for many, many, years and have never gotten pregnant unless it was my CHOICE to get pregnant. After a pregnancy occurs, IMHO, it's too late, your plans may have to change. Also, I realize that I am insensitive to those that have terminated pregnancies. I don't mean to be and am not judgemental on a case by case basis. It's the whole idea I abhor(sp). I know it must be HORRIBLE and I don't mean to diminish the severity or heartache of making this decision. I apologize.

Oh yes, my religious beliefs have nothing to do with my abortion stance. I just personally think it's wrong.

Ramble off... best to you all...

-- keep the faith... (booann77@hotmail.com), June 21, 2000.

I've been through this topic with Stop on another thread, so I didn't want to enter this one. IMO, he's a man on a mission from God.

The only reason I'm here now is to ask why NO ONE is questioning the women who get to partial-term and have such significant problems that either their life or the life of a fetus that may live a day or two are exchanged if a law like this passes.

How the hell do you justify making this illegal in those instances?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 21, 2000.

This thread is getting a little long. Lets move it over here Support for abortion waning - Day #3

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), June 21, 2000.

Just some questions--

Does anyone here know any woman who decided to NOT HAVE an abortion, had the baby, and now regrets her choice?

Does anyone here know any woman who decided to HAVE an abortion and now regrets her choice? I do. A woman friend had two abortions mourns her dead babies. She is now over 50, never had kids, never married and talks baby talk to her Lhasa apso.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 21, 2000.

Yes, I know a woman who regrets that she didn't have an abortion. She told me this, flat out, when I went to her house many years ago to collect money for a civic project. She was about 7 years younger than I. She asked me in, and I could hear this baby bawling from outside. It was hot, the house did not have an AC, the baby was lying on a filthy mattress, naked and with a heat rash. She was frazzled and had just got home from her waitress job.

She said, "I wanted to have an abortion, but NO, I had to have this baby. My mom said, "You've had your fun, and now you're going to pay for it, and I'm paying." She went on to say she wished she were dead, she wished her husband was dead and wished the baby had never been born. I really felt sorry for her and the baby.

Years later I ran into her again, and we had coffee a few times. She was remarried and had a lovely home and the child was about 12 years old. She'd had another child and you could tell she loved her very much, and although she certainly wasn't unkind to the first child, there was certainly a difference in the way she interacted with the two of them.

So there are those who mourn for the fetus and those who don't. Some feel guilt, some don't even think about it, and some have no doubt they did the right thing.

I think abortion is very traumatic for a woman. And while I think one should do everything possible to keep from getting pregnant, I would never want any woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. You men shouldn't judge others so harshly until you've been in that situation.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 21, 2000.

J, it isn't your place to judge people for what you disapprove of. Who appointed you judge and jury. You're a narrow minded bigot.

Frank, just because you and your wife had two kids while in grad school, doesn't mean that everyone is like you. In fact, you sound as if your job is just a necessary nuisance. I've worked with people whose kids always come first and they are a pain in the ass. No, they don't mind "that much" if they miss a day's work because they can spend time with their precious kids while the people at work, that also have kids, are doing extra work so this womb-brained slacker can loll at home enjoying his kids. Now isn't that nice!!!

I had one child that was an accident, and I love him dearly, but I didn't want any more. Once I thought I was pregnant, and I was just frantic. I worried myself sick. I couldn't eat, or sleep. Abortions were illegal at that time, but I didn't care. I would have had one if it had killed me. I went to the Dr. and insisted on a pregnancy test, and HOORAY, I was not pregnant. I went right home and phoned around until I found a doctor that would do band-aid surgery. I had it done a few weeks later and I've never regretted it one minute. I never intended to go through that fear again. You men don't know shit about how women feel about such things. And we are all different.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 21, 2000.

Since discussion seems to be continuing on the other thread I'm going to post this to both threads.

J, I'm not implying that I'm better than you because I have a PhD. I am saying that you don't know anything about the pressures and responsibilities that go along with it.

My idea of a future family is one in which both parents are reasonably happy, who have a sound marriage and who are mentally and financially stable and who are capable and happy to raise children. What is your idea of a family?

We chose to put off having a family because we knew we could not satisfy those criteria. We knew that under those circumstances, and at that time, we were not capable of being good parents. Unlike you, we believe that people who are not capable of making a full commitment to their children should not have them in the first place.

Frank, I don't know about the program you were in, but ours was entirely too demanding, and too dependant on research dollars, to take time off to have children. We were already half starving in graduate school, and our parents were already making enormous sacrifices to help us, in addition to the other money we recieved. While I am happy that you were able to make it work, I remain convinced that we could not. I do look forward to starting a family in the next year or two.

Keep the faith, while this was a difficult decision to make, and a physically painful one, it was not emotionally scaring. Even so it still pisses me off when people who have been lucky enough to never have had to make that decision just assume that the abortion was a decision of convenience.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 21, 2000.

Whoops! The last thread wasn't me, I was posting it because I noticed "Keep Abortion Legal" said she was going to post it here and didn't. Looks like I missed the last line. Sorry for any confusion.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 21, 2000.

Why thanks, Tarzan old shoe,

But next time could you check back BEFORE I go rambling off into the unknown?

I don't have that many breadcrumbs, I want to save them for when I *really* need them :-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 22, 2000.