Southern Baptist Say 'No' to Women

Updated 10:48 AM ET June 14, 2000

By JULIA LIEBLICH, AP Religion Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - The Southern Baptist Convention approved today a revised Faith and Message statement that says women should not serve as pastors and contains new wording condemning abortion and homosexuality.

"While men and women are gifted ... the office of pastor is limited to men by Scripture," said the Rev. Adrian Rogers of Memphis, Tenn, chairman of the drafting committee.

The vote was by a show of hands, so there was no formal count.

The statement does not address whether women should be ordained; it addresses only their role as pastors, who lead congregations. The statement also does not say what should happen to the 1,600 or so Southern Baptist clergywomen, about 100 of whom are leading congregations. The denomination has 15.9 million members.

However, the statement is not binding on individual Southern Baptists, and the denomination's 41,000 local congregations would remain free to ordain women and hire them as pastors.

Women attending a meeting of pastors' wives Tuesday afternoon overwhelmingly supported the statement.

"I don't feel like it's biblical for a woman to be a pastor," said Melissa Folds, a pastor's wife from Trenton, Fla.

But Margaret Davis, a pastor's wife from Newport News, Va., was a rare voice of dissent: "I believe if God calls you to pastor, it doesn't matter if you're a man or woman. My husband disagrees."

Other proposed changes in the church statement underscore that the Bible is "totally true" and that God is "all-powerful and all-knowing," and insist that "there is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord."

The statement also urges Christians to oppose racism and reject abortion and homosexuality.

Outside the convention, 100 or so gay and lesbian protesters marched toward the convention center carrying signs that said, "Stop Spiritual Violence." More than two dozen protesters were arrested, accused of illegal assembly.

The Rev. Ed Harris, 65, a retired Southern Baptist pastor who acknowledged his homosexuality in the 1990s, was the first to be arrested.

"The Southern Baptists were my guide into my spiritual life, and I'm very grateful ... but the church is causing too much emotional abuse to gay people," he said earlier. "We're not sick and we're not sinful."

On Tuesday, the first day of the group's annual convention, the group elected Dr. James G. Merritt, 47, pastor of the 11,000-member First Baptist Church in Snellville, Ga., to serve as president. He promised to make overseas missions, reaching young people and "soul winning" his priorities.

"I will lift high the banner of truth found in God's inerrant word," said Merritt, a graduate of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and a trustee of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va.

"We're one of the few denominations to stand strong in the sharp winds of political correctness and to call sin, sin," Merritt said.

Merritt said he agrees that only men are called to be pastors.

Robert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics in Nashville, said that Merritt was not part of the conservative leadership's takeover of the convention in 1979.

"He will have to prove himself to the aging fundamentalist leadership, (and) my suspicion is that he will aggressively push a right-wing political agenda," Parham said.

-- Holier than Thou (god@heaven.south), June 14, 2000

Answers

I highly recommend Barbara Kingsolver's novel, "The Poisonwood Bible", on the subject of the general intractability of Southern Baptists.

-- Whatever (who@car.es), June 14, 2000.

Hebrews 5:1 Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

-- The Bible Says So (And I Believe@What It Says.com), June 14, 2000.

1 Tim 3:1 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife,

1 Tim 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Notice the use of masculine pronouns-

He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

Amazed that the SB's actually got something right for a change.

-- Just Call Me "Christer" (Jesus@is.God), June 14, 2000.

The Bible,

The first SF book ever written

-- Justin Me (justme@me.not), June 14, 2000.

The first SF book ever written

And this off topic opinion has exactly what to do with Southern Baptist('s) Say(ing) 'No' to Women?

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), June 14, 2000.

OT opinion??

Read the full text of the original post, switch on your brain (if there is one) and you will see that it is not OT.

-- Justin Me (justme@me.not), June 14, 2000.

switch on your brain (if there is one)

Hiya Hawk! You are having a busy afternoon today aren't you DOOR #1=George Sr. (my kid is @ psycho. killer), DOOR #2=(get@clue.junior), OR DOOR #3=Hawk You got as many personalities as LL herself lately.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), June 14, 2000.

off

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), June 14, 2000.

One more reason to sleep in on Sundays.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 14, 2000.

Justin Me, true it might be called Sci Fi, but I think that is rather disparaging to Sci Fi, for much of SF has come to pass, and much of it is based on logic. Remember when cell phones, microwaves, etc., were SF before the actuality.

The Bible OTOH is just the thoughts of old men written in a primitive and superstitious time, and passed down by word of mouth. Of course if you're talking about the Earth Chronicles by Zecharia Stichin, then that's another matter, and based on research data and fact. Anyone else around here read Sitchin. It's not SF.

I was raised Southern Baptist and it only took me until about age 10 to figure out that the whole shebang is based on FUD, Guilt and Control.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 14, 2000.

I am with you, Gilda. My Gramma will roll in her grave (Bless her). I go first questioned why several men in the bible had multiple wives, but to my knowledge, no woman had multiple husbands (I may be wrong). This led me to question if multiple wives were allowed in the bible, why are they outlawed today? Man's Law. Recently heard one popular Baptist Preacher talk about someone Biblical person with two wives, and then he added "did you ever notice in the Bible, when there was more than one wife, there was always trouble?". Mayhaps when the KJV was translated into English, the scholars who did the language thing, has a personal agenda on the number of wives thing. So they translated the multiple wives as it was written. Didn't the Kings have multiple wives? "Off with her head!", when they tired of her. I would like to see scripture which speaks of multiple husbands of a female. I think it may have existed, but when those self righteous, self serving men set out to write doctrine to channel all others to their particular point of view, then truth shall be lost. They are determined it is their way, or no way. BTW, why DO all those Catholics continue to haul all those statues around? Hail Mary Heck!, you best go straight to the Father, as he said.

-- Female Heterosexual (canIget@wifeto clean.com), June 14, 2000.

I don't understand the response to this, not only here but in the media. The Southern Baptists would not be the first anti-intellectual, conservative sect to cherry-pick from biblical law and ignore what they want to ignore. Even Paul did that. Over time it won't amount to a hill of beans.

-- DB (Debunker@nowhere.xx), June 14, 2000.

D.B., I ain't no second class citizen. to follow in the wake of a Master, who has five wives, before me (fiction intended). This is a man driven ceremony, to kick your boots out. Don't let them, kick your boots. Make them "Lick" your boots, you have the power.

-- My Story (andi@stickingtoit,.com), June 14, 2000.

It's not a matter of women being "second class citizens".

It's a matter of who introduced sin into the human race, and facing up to the responsibility for said action.

It was the woman who first sinned. But it was the man who was in charge, and who sinned at the inducement/enticement of the woman. So there's double blame.

But it was the woman who first sinned. It was the man who was first created.

All through history, men have ruled the world, mainly. What's the reason for that? Nothing to do with the Eden story, of course.

All through history, science has tried to prove the Bible wrong. Funny thing is, that the more traditional science has tried to disprove the Bible, the more they've actually proved the Bible to be RIGHT. Scientific and archaeological discovery ALWAYS proves the Bible to be CORRECT.

-- Chicken Little (panic@isover.now), June 15, 2000.

"It's a matter of who introduced sin into the human race, and facing up to the responsibility for said action."

If you want to quibble about the introduction of sin into Christianity, you need to lay the blame firmly on god. While Eve, according to Genesis, was the first to eat the fruit, god was the one who put the tree there in the first place. If he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree, he shouldn't have created the damn thing.

Of course, according to the Judeo-Christian myth, god did create the tree and Eve did eat of the fruit first, making her the mother of all knowledge. So following your logic, not only should women not be ministers, but men shouldn't allowed to be teachers or scientists, since Adam had to be talked into eating the fruit.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

With regards to putting the blame on God, if some stole your car and ran over someone with it, should you be put in prison? After all, you left the car in the garage, but didn't bother taking off the tires each night to deter theft.

If God TOLD you not to do something, you probably shouldn't do it, especially if it's only one thing.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

Oops,

some = someone

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

Frank, you said, "With regards to putting the blame on God, if some stole your car and ran over someone with it, should you be put in prison? After all, you left the car in the garage, but didn't bother taking off the tires each night to deter theft."

Your analogy is a poorly written one. God didn't lock the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil up in a garage, he put it in the middle of the Garden of Eden (if you believe the Genesis myth). A better analogy would be this: a mad man takes a bomb, wrapped as a Christmas gift, to a daycare center. Then, he places it in the middle of a room full of five year olds and says, "Don't touch my forbidden gift of mystery, or else you'll get a nasty package," When the bomb explodes, he says, "Hey, it wasn't MY fault, after all, I just left my bomb there. If they didn't want to die, they shouldn't have been playing with it,"

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I disagree. If you *believe* the Genesis myth, you'd also believe that Adam and Eve KNEW that God was God and had created them. For them to disobey and do the ONLY THING IN THE WORLD that *GOD* told them not to do is (IMHO) much closer to my analogy than yours.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

Ahh, Frank, come on!!!!! So it was the only thing in the world that God told them *not* to do. Surely you are aware that if you want to get someone to do something, you tell them NOT to do it.

What amazes me about this Garden of Eden-who-sinned-first baloney is this: God being the know-all, be-all, knew that if he told them not to do this one thing they would. So as far as I'm concerned, that was a planned setup--entrapment if you will.

Second: And what was this mysterious, Knowledge they weren't supposed to know? It was, OH MY GAWWD--SEX!! So for the sake of argument, let's assume they decided to act like wimps and *not* partake of the Tree of KNOWLEDGE, meaning SEX. Well, bummer, that would have ended that experiment in a heart beat, now wouldn't it? Nor fornicating, no children, no human race. God would have had to think up something else.

But since women are traditionally not as keen to obey authorities as men are, Eve listened to the snake and ate the apple. Oh my GAWWWD!!! That sinful slut-puppy then knew about SEX and they knew they were naked, and they knew what to do with that nakedness. So Adam, first a coward--now horney and sinful.

Man-like, he needed someone to blame. So when GAWWD thundered at them, and they tried to cover their parts, (Jesse Helms would have been outraged) what does Adam do--he proved himself a wuss by blaming it on Eve, of course Eve doesn't like that and blames it on the snake, which all we very intelligent, logical creatures know is the Devil, and of course the snake was looking about for a cockroach to blame it on.

And so down through the ages we have men like Chicken Little, aptly named I might add, saying, "It's a matter of who introduced sin into the human race, and facing up to the responsibility for said action."

Bull Shit, I say. Sex, a very natural, useful activity, should not be labeled sin. Women should not be blamed for sex or sin. And a diety who sets up his "treasure of nature's germens" in such a mafia-minded, sting operation should not be worshipped.

Fortunately, most women have the guts, in spite of being treated like third class citizens for centuries, to stand up on their hind legs and say, "Enough!! Stuff it."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 15, 2000.

Hi Gilda! You said,

Ahh, Frank, come on!!!!! So it was the only thing in the world that God told them *not* to do. Surely you are aware that if you want to get someone to do something, you tell them NOT to do it.

Gilda. Don't murder anyone. Don't burn down your local school. Don't etc. Are YOU going to go out and murder people and start a few fires because I told you not to? Why apply a different standard to Adam and Eve when *God* told them not to do ONE thing?

God being the know-all, be-all, knew that if he told them not to do this one thing they would. So as far as I'm concerned, that was a planned setup--entrapment if you will.

Yes, it's a frame of reference thing I struggle with as well. If God truly knows everything, why have the universe at all, why not just be done with it and send people to their eternal reward at the outset? I think the problem here is that we can only conceive of what we can conceive, God's vision is likely be so much different from ours it's impossible to ascribe motivations to (God). As an example, an ant would likely not understand why the lights go on and off at random times in a room, when in fact the human occupant (from our perspective) is the cause by flicking the light switch when they enter and leave the room.

Free will is essential to saying someone is "good" or "evil", or to hold someone accountable for their action. But how can there truly be free will when God *knows* what you're going to do? I think that free will exists because if it doesn't, then ALL of life's decisions are a lie. Therefore, on their level, Adam and Eve must have had a CHOICE at the time they made it, even if the result of that choice was known to God.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

OK Frank, here goes. If someone says don't murder anyone, or burn down buildings, I'm going to reply, "Why are you telling me that, you know I wouldn't do that sort of thing." But if someone said, "Don't eat the fruit of that tree," I might. Of course it wouldn't seem to be a big deal, so if I were hungry I might go ahead and eat an apple. Having been told to leave it alone, would certainly increase my craving. hee hee

I would also wonder, why they cared if I ate an apple. I might think they wanted to save all of them for themselves, or maybe that they needed a good washing first. But if I wanted an apple, I might go ahead and eat it just to find out what the hell the big deal was. As you probably know, women are curious creatures.

The frame of reference you struggle with, I did too for a very short while. I decided it didn't make sense, wasn't logical, made me feel bad, made me resentful, and I didn't care what God's vision was. This is when I said, "This is not for me. I will not worship this God that I'm not even sure exists. If I did, it would be play acting, and I sure didn't intend to believe to be socially correct." I had to be true to myself, so I said, "Thanks but no thanks."

However, for those who believe that's fine. I just don't want it pushed on me.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 15, 2000.

Gilda,

Sorry, I don't buy it. Genesis 3:2-3, "The woman answered the serpent: We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'You shall not eat it or even touch it, ***lest you die***.'" (emphasis added).

This was not God *casually* telling her not to eat it, He said "If you eat it, YOU WILL DIE!" To say that this command would be taken lightly by *anyone* is baloney, *especially* since this is GOD talking to her.

You also said,

The frame of reference you struggle with, I did too for a very short while. I decided it didn't make sense, wasn't logical, made me feel bad, made me resentful, and I didn't care what God's vision was.

One of my big themes in life is that most things worth having are worth struggling for. LOTS of things don't make sense until you've studied them, it's too bad IMHO that you've turned your back on God because (again IMHO) He's superior to us.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

So let's see here...not good in front line combat, no good in the pulpit....oh, and can't play lineman, quarterback, free safety, etc....cannot beat Tiger Woods in golf......

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 16, 2000.

So, from whose loins did you spring, Unk??

-- Normally (Oxsys@aol.com), June 16, 2000.

Gilda, you bring a good laugh, and as far as I am concerned, good natured laughter on earth is as close as we can get to Heaven in this pit stop. Jesus said "Love Ye, One Another". And I think that "loving" meant bringing laughter and logic to anyone who needs it. I may be wrong, but I still remember God doesn't create trash. (Well maybe except for that neighbor who has all those junky cars (just kidding):)

-- Church Fan (H@ndwaver.com), June 16, 2000.