This is an ongoing series of retrospectives from power industry insiders.

Well, we've discussed our Y2k Heroes, so to balance things out, we will talk about some of the less desirable things we've experienced while working on Y2k in the Power Industry. Chapter 7: Y2k Villainous Acts

=================================== Dan's comments: What are the villainous acts and who were their perpetrators? While working on Y2k, there were many people who either inadvertently or deliberately hindered progress in getting the word out to the public that Y2k was not going to be a big deal as far as electricity was concerned. Here's my list of the worst of the worst: GOLD MEDAL: The acts of Jim Lord, for his misleading information, anonymous tips, and general misunderstanding of power systems that resulted in customers' money being spent unnecessarily. No one who followed Y2k very closely can forget the "Navy Documents" that Jim "leaked" to the public, naming about 30 utilities as "likely to fail" during the Y2k rollover per the Navy. These so-called documents were nothing more than an outdated spreadsheet, and Mr. Lord got enough people worked up about it that these utilities and the Navy had to scramble to clarify the real situation. I remember talking to the Y2k project manager of one of the utilities named on Jim's web site. Ironically, that utility had formed a Y2k team earlier than most other companies. The manager said the week of the Navy documents fiasco was his worst during the whole project. And the anonymous "tips" of Mr. CEO? "If we have outages less than 2 weeks, I'd consider it a home run," Jim quoted Mr. CEO as saying. ANYONE with a working knowledge Y2k remediation would NEVER have said such a thing. And finally, in his essay "A Graceful Scenario," Jim suggests that utilities shut down non-essential loads to minimize the effects of Y2k problems. This reveals plain ignorance of the problem. By mid-1999, utilities knew that problems would be minimal, but to be on the safe side, extra power plants would be on line during the rollover. When studies were finalized, we knew we had way more power generation than we needed at the time. The problem was not too much load, but a LACK of it. Anyone with power experience could see that. Then when the rollover was a bust, no real apology was forthcoming. I remember seeing a post on TBY2k wherein a Naval person wrote "I am ashamed to say that we wore the same uniform, Mr. Lord." No real apology, just more junk about Mr. CEO being real, and a country he couldn't name reportedly did have power problems (by the way, the country he's probably referring to is Pakistan, but we couldn't get any solid information from that country). So there you have the ultimate Y2k Power Industry Villain. SILVER MEDAL: Robert Cook, PE, for his false claims of knowledge about Y2k and power, and for refusing to settle a bet he agreed to on TBY2k in front of God and everybody. With more than THREE THOUSAND posts on TBY2k, even a radio appearance, Robert was a driving force for the doom and gloom crowd on the message board. Even as late as December 12, 1999, he had this to say: "My experience and knowledge of civil/power/infrastructure systems, my experience in software testing, and my experience in industrial production, shipping, manufacturing, distribution and wholesale tell me that the levels of failures are going to be significant in many areas, and will affect the fundamental productivity in millions of processes locally, nationally, and worldwide." (see http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001zaV) Do you see the obvious claim "I know a heck of a lot about a lot of things, and my VAST knowledge tells me that Y2k is going to be a VERY BIG deal." Well, we all know what really happened. Very soon after joining the TBY2k discussions, Mr. Cook would try to counter my claims with "techy" sounding statements. When confronted, he admitted that he didn't even work for a power company, and hadn't Y2k tested a single device commonly used in the industry. So I challenged him to a wager: Whoever was wrong about Y2k would publically admit it on TBY2k. See http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00j3d, wherein he accepts my wager. After the Y2k problems didn't even come close to his predictions, I asked him to settle the wager. I told him when I would be posting a message wherein we could settle all this. HE AGREED via e-mail. But when it came time to admit his error, he chickened out. I repeatedly asked for him to say the words we agreed to, even appealing to his religious beliefs regarding bearing false witness, but he exhibited great cowardice. To this day, he refuses to admit publicly that he lost the wager. BRONZE MEDAL: There's a three way tie for this one: Y2k Newswire, World Net Daily, and the poster known as "RC". RC made outrageous claims about the power and oil industries based on "numerous inside contacts", that there were serious outages coming in Y2k. When asked to post his power "information" on the EUY2K site, he cowered, knowing full well that his bogus claims would be debunked by those of us who actually were working on Y2k. The "news" sources of Newswire and World Net Daily were constantly stretching the truth and suggesting doom for the power industry. A classic example occurred when NERC released their guide for the April 9, 1999 drill. It publicly stated that the drills should not be too complex. These bastions of wisdom jumped on this as some kind of conspiracy that the drill was rigged. I was present at the NERC conference in Texas prior to the April drill. People from the nuclear side of the industry, with extensive drilling experience, warned that if you try to do too many scenarios at once, that everyone becomes confused. Imagine making your family do a fire, earthquake AND tornado drill simultaneously...they would be totally bewildered and wouldn't know what to do. So the nukes were saying to make sure that you have the drill well spelled out, with plenty of observers to oversee it. But these twins of information weren't at the conference, or if they were, they missed the whole point of what was being said about how to perform the drill. Besides, the information was on NERC's PUBLIC Y2k site for anyone in the world to read. Not a very good way to do a conspiracy, I don't think! So, for misleading "news" about Y2k, Newswire, WND and "RC" take the cake. HONORABLE MENTION 1: To the posters on this thread: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0015Ak. On the EUY2K forum, I had become weary of marianne's repeated comparisons of Y2k to the Three Mile Island incident of the 1970's. I was thoroughly trashed by the doom crowd for even suggesting that maybe, just maybe, TMI was not a fair comparison to Y2k (remember the repeated uneducated mantra, "Got KI?"). Anyway, our friend "a" (does anyone know who that guy really is?) linked to the flesh-eating feast. The responses epitomize the inane, mean-spirited words of some hard-core pessimists: King of Spain called me a "Maytag Repairman" Gordon compared me to "Norm" (note that Gordon did apologize to me post-rollover; he's no longer a villain in my book ):). "Elbow Grease" said I thought I was unimpeachable and blessed by God Himself. The final post from one of the greatest villains of the TBY2k crowd came from "Will Continue": "Dan the Power Man...what a worm...A note to all of OUR regulars AND marianne...way to go people! Put 'em in the dust and ring that bell!! Rick Cowles had better begin to take this subject a bit more seriously. Is there NO sanity?" This comment is truly a classic. Start with name calling, then try to rally everyone together like some kind of cult, and encourage them to fight against my legitimate request. Then tell Rick Cowles he's not taking the Y2k problem seriously enough (what a joke!). Yes, Will Continue, there is NO sanity...in your pathetic rambling posts. HONORABLE MENTION 2: To the poster known as "Shakey", who still claims, without providing any proof that embedded systems problems are still occurring. Go to http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000nFA, and you'll see one of his first pathetic attempts to counter my claims, under the pseudonym "Dutchman". Shakey, if you keep this up, we're gonna have to ask you a few questions about your "credentials". HONORABLE MENTION 3: To Diane Squire...in mid-1999, when a person asked where he could find information on the status of the power industry, Diane suggested Robert Cook and Rick Cowles. When I jokingly asked why she hadn't suggested my name, she said that Robert and Rick provide more "balanced" information. Oh, well. Shift happens. Or not. *Sigh* :)

=====================================

"The Engineer's" comments:

Ah, where to begin, so many choices, so little time....................

I think I have to start with Gary North. It wasn't that he believed what he believed or posted what he posted. I do, however, have to take issue with his stance that he was only a historian merely posting information for the benefit of the public. He trumpeted any and all bad information, including misinformation, then tried to spin any positive news or questions about the accuracy of his posts. On top of that he had his infamous list of questions that he urged everyone send to their local Utility. If the companies didn't pay any attention, well obviously they were involved either ignorant of the impending calamity or in a cover-up. The fact that the questions didn't make much sense or have anything to do with the real way a utility operates didn't make any difference. Coming from a man who wondered if the Eastern Grid operated at 60 HZ and the Western Grid operated at 50 HZ it would be funny if it wasn't infuriating. His site was the seed bed that allowed Lord and all th! e others to take root.

Ed Yourdon stands shoulder to shoulder with Gary. Ed seemed to believe that an understanding of programming projects somehow automatically led to an innate and intimate understanding of anything that was connected, could be connected, or even in the same building as a computer. His biggest failure was the inability to see the handwriting on the wall. Early in 1999 he suggested significant dates for the true believers to observe and see what happened. When nothing did, rather then step back and reevaluate he pressed blindly onward. Even Cowles understood enough to see by mid-year it was becoming much ado about nothing. He changed his web site with an eye to the future. If Cowles was smart enough to see it and act accordingly, Ed should have.

Many people kept pointing out that CPR started out as a doomer. Even if true it wasn't where you started that mattered. It's where you ended.

Next down come all the also-rans. Corey, Lane Core, Roleigh Martin, Heller, Jim Lord, RC, Paula, Minnesota Smith, Hewitt, Cynthia, and all the rest. They thought they knew all the answers and never realized they didn't even understand the questions. Any time one of the pre roll over dates passed with no harbinger of the impending collapse of civilization rather then step back and look at the situation they began to bleat a chorus of "cover-up" and cries of "troll alert". They fancied themselves as "GI" and those who disagreed as "DGI" but never realized they never understood it. Any attempt at a rational discourse or to point out that "it doesn't work that way" led them to reflexively start name calling and to doubt the posters honesty. I'll point out that Lane Core was one of the trumpeters about how the NERC test was "rigged". Nothing in his biography indicated any knowledge of power utilities or communication. One of the more interesting things about Jim Lord's super secret "Navy List" was that some of the names on it weren't even Utilities.

The same people who demanded answers to all sorts of questions from anyone and everyone didn't question what Lord, Ed, or any of the others wrote. They just believed. Many were incensed at Poole's Q7 hoax but didn't "GI" that they possessed neither the knowledge to recognize it as a hoax nor the whit to question it in the first place. They just believed. Some still believe.

I think I'll make a special mention of Skakey who questioned Cherri's knowledge on embedded systems due to his so-called vast experience in working in Power Plants. He also question my knowledge and thought I was a "young pup". Not even close. I've been in plants, dams, and about 200 substations. When nothing happen somehow his vast experience got transmogrified to oil wells and the fact that he was totally wrong didn't seem to matter. It was this type of egotistical puffery that ran rampant at TB and other places on the Web.

=======================================

Factfinder's Comments:

THE WORST of Y2K Worst Industry Organization for Y2K Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE). Documents that were supposed to help in the Y2K effort weren't even released until late in 1999, and the test document, while extensive, had so much overkill that it would have taken forever to test one application or embedded system device using it. And worst of all was the IEEE Technical Advisory group - Dale Way's contribution to the doomsday noise, in his letter to Congress, in his posts at the Timebomb 2000 forum, and in his critique of Yourdon's "End Game" which was sent to Roleigh Martin. Way's acts were highly irresponsible, warning of serious consequences of y2k that were never based on facts and that of course never materialized.

Dishonorable Mention - Corporate The Gartner Group (1998 embedded systems myths) Tava Beck Century

Dishonorable Mention - Government Naval War College CIA NIST (in collaboration with "Century")

Dishonorable Mention - Educational Institution George Washington University (GWU)

Worst Mass Media Contributor Drew Parkhill, CBN All the doom, little of the good news.

Worst Individual Contributors Paula Gordon - GWU, rehashed Frautshi's myths in 1999, last person on planet still expecting significant y2k problems to occur in embedded systems. Mark Frautschi - of embedded systems y2k "white paper" fame circa 1998, the best footnoted work of myth and fantasy I have ever read. Dave Hall -cited by the late as the originator of the 40 billion chip "baloney" which later expanded to 60-80 billion chips. Bruce Beach - another "embedded systems" commentator with no knowledge of them, later discovered by media to have installed old buses in the ground years ago and then used them as y2k bunkers.

============================================

Malcolm's comments:

Then there were the Villains. The people who appeared to just want publicity and didn't care for the accuracy of their information. As far as electricity is concerned I'll ignore the likes of Gary North and Paul Milne as they are simply doomers without regard to the actual cause. But there are some villains who were scaremongers on electricity without any real knowledge behind them.

In 4th place for the Villains award is Carl Jenkins. As far as I know he never predicted the crash of the grid prior to Jan 1st, but he did present every little news item since, on any subject including electricity, as being caused by Y2K.

The 3rd place for scare mongering at and around the time of the rollover goes to Hawk. I enjoy our occasional arguments Hawk, as we are definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum on many subjects. But my reason for making this award is based on an exchange when Hawk initially claimed the Hazelwood explosion (coal fired power station) as being Y2K related. As our discussion got deeper he responded with a comment that he found electricity boring, he didn't want to know anything about it, and that he was merely repeating what had already been claimed on Gary North's forum. Carl and Hawk are typical of the people who raised fears about a subject that they knew little of, and yet helped to cause the fears of the average person.

In second place I would have to put Dr. Paula Gordon. She came across as knowing a lot about embedded systems, yet every time she was challenged, she just side-stepped the issue. Her faulty observations and claims made it appear certain that electricity was a goner.

But the real villain would have to be Senator Bennet. I know politicians are not known for their ability to be logical, or even for being truthful, but his faulty logic would have every power grid everywhere in the world failing every single day. Most people do listen to politicians, and therefore people like Senator Bennet have responsibility to ensure that every statement they make can be validated. To use logic like his ... because no guarantee can be given that power will be available, we must assume that it will fail... is completely irresponsible for someone in public office.

===========================

Discussion: What were the villainous acts of Y2k, in your opinion? PLEASE remember to avoid ad hominem attacks and focus on faulty postings or logic.

Next Chapter: Confessions: A Behind the scenes look at some mistakes that were made...

-- Dan the Power Man (dgman19938@aol.com), June 12, 2000

Answers

An interesting post. I thank you all for taking the time and effort it took to compose it (but, of course I am of the Polly persuasion).

Perhaps petty of me, but I liked the comments on Shakey. Apparently, he's still in his "bunker at 40 feet below." Any idea if he had any actual experience in "embedded systems"?

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 12, 2000.

I don't think Shasey understands what an "embedded system" is. As a matter of fact I think a lot of people have different idea what one is.

It took some time for e to narrow it down, or should I say up, to any devise which uses digital logic which is not encased in an actual computer. Shakey is taking every mechanical device, whether it is digital or analog as being an "embedded system". Shakey appears to blame every mechanical failure as an "embedded" one. That is not what is generally accepted when defining an embedded system, and are irrelevent when discussing the issue, espeially as being date sensitive.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 12, 2000.

"Gordon compared me to "Norm"

harumphhh. There are worse people one could be compared to, I'm sure.

-- Norm (back@inbusiness.com), June 12, 2000.

Welcome back Norm:)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), June 12, 2000.

NOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRMMMMMMMM!

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), June 12, 2000.

Saddened that Malcolm got into the recrimination biz. Seems crowded enough with the lessers.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 13, 2000.

Jim Lord and the 'Pentagon Papers' of Y2K

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Gla

Navy Predicts Widespread Y2K Failure

By Ted Bridis Associated Press Writer Thursday, August 19, 1999; 7:27 p.m. EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Navy report predicts ``probable'' or ``likely'' failures in electrical and water systems for many cities because of the Year 2000 technology problem -- an assessment more dire than any other made by the government.

President Clinton's top Y2K adviser, John Koskinen, called the Navy's conclusions overly cautious, saying they assumed that major utilities would fail unless proved otherwise.

The most recent version of the study, updated less than two weeks ago, predicted ``probable'' or ``likely'' partial failures in electric utilities that serve nearly 60 of roughly 400 Navy and Marine Corps facilities.

The study predicted ``likely'' partial electrical failures, for example, at facilities in Orlando, Fla.; Gulfport, Miss.; Fort Lauderdale, Fla.; and nine other small- to mid-size cities.

It also predicted ``probable'' partial water system failures in Dallas; Nashville, Tenn.; Houston; Baton Rouge, La.; Montgomery, Ala; Tulsa, Okla.; and 59 other cities.

The study forecast likely partial natural gas failures -- in the middle of winter -- in Albany, N.Y.; Fort Worth, Texas; Pensacola, Fla.; Charleston, S.C.; Columbus, Ohio; and Nashville.

The military report contrasts sharply with predictions from the White House, which weeks ago said in a report that national electrical failures are ``highly unlikely.'' The White House report also said disruptions in water service from the date rollover are ``increasingly unlikely.''

Koskinen, who vouched for the authenticity of the Navy report, noted that all its worst-case predictions for failures were marked as ``interim'' or ``partial'' assessments.

``It's not nearly as interesting as the world coming to an end,'' said Koskinen. ``The way they worked was, until you have information for contingency planning purposes, you ought to assume there was a problem.''

The Year 2000 problem occurs because some computer programs, especially older ones, might fail when the date changes to 2000. Because the programs were written to recognize only the last two digits of a year, such programs could read the digits ``00'' as 1900 instead of 2000, potentially causing problems with financial transactions, airline schedules and electrical grids.

The Navy report was first summarized on an Internet site run by Jim Lord, a Y2K author, who said he obtained it ``from a confidential source of the highest reliability and integrity.''

``The military has to work from the worst case, but so do we,'' Lord told The Associated Press on Thursday. ``It's reprehensible for them to know this and keep it from us.''

Koskinen said the Navy wasn't withholding information from anyone, noting that the continually updated report was available until recently on a Web site maintained by the Defense Department.

``The last people in the world the department is going to keep information from is their own people,'' Koskinen said. ``In fact, the whole purpose of the exercise is to make sure they can provide appropriate information to servicemen on their bases and their families.

The report was pulled off the Web site two weeks, Koskinen said. Neither he nor Defense Department officials offered any reason why.

) Copyright 1999 The Associated Press

-- (August@of.1999), June 13, 2000.

" Next Chapter: Confessions:"

This is either funny or getting downright painful...

-- Will (righthere@home.now), June 13, 2000.

What Bennett said in 1998, before the improving news about electricity during 1999.

http://www.marshill.org/Y2K%20pages/will_we_have_power061298.htm

Will we have power on Jan. 1, 2000? New Year 2000 committee hears expert views on bug

By Miguel Llanos MSNBC

June 12  Utility experts were not able to promise Friday that the United States would remain plugged in Jan. 1, 2000  the day the Year 2000 bug hits. They testified before a new Senate Year 2000 committee, whose chairman believes that if today were Jan. 1, 2000, the nations power grid would collapse.

CHAIRMAN ROBERT Bennett, R-Utah, said a survey his office sent to 10 of the nations largest electric, oil and gas utilities showed their preparations to ward off Year 2000 bugs were lagging.

Eight of the companies had not even finished assessing their automated systems, a first step in tackling the problem, Bennett said.

I had anticipated that I would be able to provide a positive report on the Year 2000 status of these public utilities, he said. Instead, based on the results of this survey, I am genuinely concerned about the very real prospects of power shortages as a consequence of the millennial date change.

And it was Bennett who warned that he felt there was a 100 percent chance the U.S. power grid would collapse if today were Jan. 1, 2000. Because the date is 18 months away, he estimated the chance of collapse on that date is 40 percent  not as high, but still significant.

Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., the committee co-chair was as pessimistic as Bennett, saying he feared many government and business leaders hadnt even drafted contingency plans.

The government and industry experts who testified Friday were unable to reassure the committee that utilities were ready for Jan. 1, 2000. The state of year 2000 readiness of the utility industry is largely unknown, warned the head of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, James Hoecker.

more

-- (June@of.1998), June 13, 2000.

Thanks Dan, Anita Evangelista (?) should be put on your list. She never had much to contribute except to point out that all pollys didn't know the rules of "engagement". She never accepted that the GIs were the ones who didn't know how to make an agrument. Funny, I had forgotten how difficult it was to discuss things with children until I came to this board.

I think Gordo should be put back on the list.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 13, 2000.

The threads at your links have been deleted! Today I'll bet.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 13, 2000.

I just noticed that to, buddy. That has happened several times. Remember the thread that Diane tried to frame me with, the one with out of order date posts? They have been moved to appear "normal" now.

LOL at the Tinfoil Berets™! Anything to avoid the truth!

-- Super Polly (FU_Q_Y2kfreaks@hotmail.com), June 13, 2000.

The threads at your links have been deleted! Today I'll bet.

Actually, as much as this would be typical of what we've come to expect, such is not the case. Dan mentioned the links were bad. There is an extraneous parenthesis or comma at the end of each link. Remove it, and the thread is indeed there.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 13, 2000.

The threads are there, morons.

-- moron patrol (morons@will.be morons), June 13, 2000.

Check out the responses at SLEZ if you are one who cares-not that I really do, but I still go there every two weeks or so for a laugh: http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000.showMessage?topicID=5737. topic

Wrap that url around your flagpole! Anyway, just a bunch of invective- And TodBerg is still calling Paula and Jim Lord Respected people. ROTFLMAO!

Good job as usual, powerfolk.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), June 13, 2000.

A little something from last year from one of the organizations identified here as one of the bad guys--World Net Daily.

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001BiL

There are other caveats: On page 10 there is a table about the 17 "entities that have yet to complete the Remediation and Testing phase." Presumably these 17 "entities" represent the difference between "the 268 entities reporting monthly to NERC" (page iv) and the "list of 251 organizations" in Appendix B that are Y2K ready (268 - 251 = 17).

But wait! It turns out that 64 of those 251 "organizations" or "entities," whatever, really are not Y2K ready. Rather, they are "Y2K Ready With Limited Exceptions." That's a handy category created by NERC for good-guys-who-are-a-bit-slow. NERC says they are mostly ready, that there are good excuses for their systems that aren't ready yet, and asserts that those systems will be ready very soon. The only really bad guys are those elusive 17, and we're not telling you who they are.

Bottom line: 81 of the 268 entities reporting to NERC (64 + 17) were not Y2K ready at the end of the second quarter of 1999. That's 30 percent of the total. For some reason, though, NERC decided against a headline saying "70 percent of utilities reporting to us are Y2K ready." Instead we are told that "More than 99 percent of all the critical elements of the U.S. and Canadian electricity supply systems are ready for Y2K."

-- (August@of.1999), June 13, 2000.

Who you tryin' to kid? You've altered the forum again to make the threads reappear. Better be careful who you think is a moron, you'll get burned one day -- LIKE NOW.

I know the threads came up as deleted earlier using the correct URLs. I happened to have noticed Dan say the links had bad characters in them, but he said that on EZsleazy board about the live links. He said nothing of the kind here. And I cut and pasted the URLs, I didn't use the bad hyperlinks.

This one worked earlier and still works: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001zaV

These two work now but didn't earlier: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0015Ak http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000nFA

This one still shows as deleted: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00j3d

Who did that? Old Bit...uh, Git?

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 13, 2000.

Dan mentioned the links were bad. There is an extraneous parenthesis or comma at the end of each link. Remove it, and the thread is indeed there.

He mentioned it on EZ not here! And I did remove the extraneous characters earlier.

Don't be fooled. One of the old TB2000 cyclops is playing games here.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 13, 2000.

You've altered the forum again to make the threads reappear.

I was always under the impression that once a thread is deleted, it is deleted for good. Perhaps the record isn't physically removed from the database, but rather marked for deletion and then removed when the database is next purged. In either case, I wouldn't have expected that anyone other than Phil Greenspun would be able to recover it in that case. But I could be wrong.

This one still shows as deleted: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q- and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00j3d

I don't like this any more than you do, but try it with an extra '0'in the ID as in:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000j3d

It should lead you here.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 13, 2000.

Well, "hmmm" you are correct about that one. That still doesn't explain the other two.

And if anyone wants to know how the polly vs. doomer wars got started in the first place, it was because of posts like the one above signed "morons@will.be morons"

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 13, 2000.

Old Git IS and HAS BEEN on this board causing trouble.

She is also at FRLians

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=FRL%20friends

-- (Kickin @up .sh*t), June 13, 2000.

Be careful though. She is a cyclops over there too.

-- (Kickin'@ up .sh*t), June 13, 2000.

I still remember the thread where Maria threatened Ed Yourdon's life, I'll never forget that one. It's ironic that some like Y2K Pro and Andy Ray accuse the doomers of being the violent ones. Most of us were just trying to protect ourselves, and the pollies violently threatened us if we did not quit talking about our worries.

-- (better safe @ than. sorry), June 13, 2000.

some moron (better safe @ than. sorry) said: "I still remember the thread where Maria threatened Ed Yourdon's life, I'll never forget that one."

Time to put up or shut up. Post the link....THEN...prove it wasn't a Maria troll!

Is constant lying a doomer trait?

-- Loser Doomers (quit@f'in.whining), June 13, 2000.

Oh, and btw, take it somewhere else (another thread) you loser...this one is about power, NOT your lying doom tricks.

-- Loser Doomers (quit@f'in.whining), June 13, 2000.

Rick Cowles' August, 1999 take on a then recent NERC report

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001DJf

-- (Old@dusty.shelves), June 14, 2000.

(better safe @ than. sorry) sounds suspiciously like Dennis Olson.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 14, 2000.

Sorry Dan, but let me answer this idiot...

Better safe, VIOLENT ME?!!! I never threatened Ed's life you idiot. I thought that if things turned out the way that they did a lot of doomer idiots who spent their entire life savings, moved to the wilderness, abondoning their current lives, might get a little upset with Eddie's preachings and react violently toward Ed. Why would I act violently toward Ed? I never followed his "logic". It never made any sense to me. As it did turn out, many people did react to Ed. As I recall he complained about this in January.

Better safe may be Sysman.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 14, 2000.

This is perhaps the worst case of thread deterioration I've seen on this forum yet. On the one side, we have someone accusing Maria of threatening Ed Yourdon, and someone stating that pollies threatened folks. Heh. Please show me where I threatened ANYONE.

On the other side, we have someone suggesting that FRL Friends is a place where the hard-core doomers still "live." Heh. The Fruitcake Resistance League was the only subset of TB2000 where folks could just associate for no other reason than to have fun being silly. But, Nooooooooooo! Oldgit doesn't have a RIGHT to just let her hair down and get silly with old internet friends. Someone feels a need to chase her down and even claim that she has authority on the forum.

Thanks for starting the thread, Dan. It's too bad that what began with a sane analysis ended in fanatic extrapolation.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 14, 2000.

Typical doomer twisting the truth, not seeing the truth if it bit him on the arse.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 14, 2000.

I can't find the thread, but it's true, and Maria knows it.

-- (better safe @ than. sorry), June 14, 2000.

I can't find the thread, but it's true, and Maria knows it.

Yes, of course it's true. That was the thread where Ed responded to Maria by saying "just you try it you worthless skank!! I'll pump you so full of lead, you'll be like...like...like a big piece of lead!!! A big piece of lead who's a SKANK!!"

Then Diane Squire tried to calm things down by visibly *sigh*ing, but Ed just smacked her upside the head. Then Paul Milne, Dennis Olson, and INVAR started their own Yourdon Defense Militia to protect him against the Killer Pollys, but Maria would have none of it. She and Anita and Cherri and Patricia began the Sisterhood Of Murdering Gubmint Shill Pollys who's sinister goal was the extermination of all GIs everywhere. They were busy arming themselves for their assault when Andy Ray appeared wielding his deadly teal font to join the charge. Everything was set for the final blow, when all of a sudden, out of nowhere. . .

Ladylogic appeared.

And the thread was deleted. [snip --Sysop]

Really, that's what happened! Honest!!

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 14, 2000.

I remember that thread...

I showed up as Chuck was returning from his hibernation behind a skirt. He promised to "whip those polly's into line!" Harrumphs echoed from the hills, and many a doomer wiped away tears of joy and said "Finally, Chuck has joined our fascist ranks, giving up on logic (as we have none) and proof (and we can produce none) and even human decency (sic), and has shelved his intellect to become a real doomer!"

I've got a link for it, too...it's right next to the thread posted by Invar about the celebration where he and Milne cook Stephen Poole's flesh over an open campfire, and Invar cuts off a piece and hands it to Milne for a test taste. Milne replies that Poole's flesh tastes "Mighty fine" after all those months of attempting to "reason" with him...

It's here somewhere...I'll find it (Where's StinkMeister when you need him most? Out mixing some music?)

Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), June 14, 2000.

Sorry about the bad links...that seemed to generate a bunch of controversy here.

Norm: I did not mean to imply that being compared to you was a bad thing. The point is that it was intended as a pejorative term by the person who calle me that. No offense implied.

So, what say you all? Any specific villainous acts you want to bring up?

-- Dan the Power Man (dgman19938@aol.com), June 15, 2000.