In two weeks time we are moving house.This will involve a three hour car journey,a four hour trip on the ferry followed by a five hour drive.

We have a large dog (Anatolian Karabash)who pants & slobbers all the time when in the car.He will have to be left unattended on the car deck when on the ferry & hates strangers.

Anatolians do not have a long history of domestication (30 years)and react badly to synthetic medications.

Can anyone recommend any herbal sedatives for canines,please as we do not want him to cause any heart attacks amongst the other passengers!

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), June 10, 2000

Answers

In addition to whatever excellent answers you get on this forum, I also recommend talking with an experienced vet about your concerns because herbal concoctions may occasionally create problems and the right synthetic in the right dosage might do the best job ... an informed opinion from a local vet won't hurt, anyway.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), June 10, 2000.

Chris,

While not solving your dogs anxiety problem a practical solution for the humans would be to rent/buy a large kennel for the hazardous part of your journey.

Snacks and treats will calm the dog mentally but not physically.I mean REALLY GOOD TREATS ie.chunks of stew meat etc... or his favorite.Also, asprins will relax him a little,large dogs= 6 asprins.

Lots of water,sinse your dog salivates so much he will dehydrate quickly especially under stress,wich will further compound the problem.

If you cannot stay with him put a small radio close to him,sounds wierd but works.You can start doing this now and it is something he will feel comfortable with by then.

I used to raise and compete Newfoundlands in water trials and train Rotties for home defense,if I think of anything else I'll let ya know.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 10, 2000.

Don't do the herbal thing. The magic answers change every 3 to 5 years and none have survived the 30 I've been watching. Ask you vet for something that works. Simple, safe. Oh yeah, congrats on the new house.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 10, 2000.

Rent another Anatolian of the opposite sex for the trip. Thatll do er!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

I would recommend getting a carrier large enough for him. Get the kind with the food and water dish, and take plenty of snacks. Check the online pet stores for carriers, you can usually find a good deal. Take a leash and let him out every few hours, he should be ok.

-- Jeanne (jcd51@webtv.net), June 10, 2000.

Hi,

My husband and I have raised and lived with Dobes, GSDs and Great Danes since '69 (hubby) and '72 (me) (been handling dogs together for the past 18 years). Hope that counts as experience in this matter. :))

Your best bet would be to talk to your vet. I understand the reaction thing. Dobes are sensitive to many drugs.

From your email addy, I'm guessing you live in the UK or thereabouts. We lived there for years and the over the counter meds here and there are totally different.

For car travel anxieties, drools, vomiting and over all relaxation, we always give Benadryl, an over the counter med used for allergies in humans. This drug was recommended not only by my vet, but by numerous dog knowledgable people. It contains:

Diphenhydramine Hydrocloride 25 mg and numerous additives.

There are also many herbs that when combined correctly do wonders for attitude. But, it takes quite a while for them to kick in. Also, some dogs don't always react as anticipated. One of our GSDs went hyper on a relaxing mixture. Melatonin also has a calming reaction in most dogs. It's recommended to dogs afraid of thunderstorms or loud noises.

There are tons of non-harmful drugs out there, but this is kind of short notice.

If you need more help, contact me.

Kat Wagener

-- James Wagener (hypermo@apci.net), June 10, 2000.

put some of your [worn] clothing in kennel with him. smelling your scent could calm him. just an idea.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 10, 2000.

Here's a list given to me by a true dog lover. Enjoy, maybe some of us could take some to calm us down, too. LOL --------------- Flower Remedies

Flower remedy therapy relies on the emotional/mental component of disease. Although the contribution of mental stress to physical disease is much easier to document in humans, animal disease certainly contains an emotional component as well. Flower remedies are extracts of the flowering parts of certain plants, and work solely on the emotional plane of the patient. It is believed that these substances act in an energetic manner, similar to homeopathic remedies. Dr. Edward Bach, the physician to describe the use of flower remedies in the 1930's, said," True healing involves treating the very base of the cause of suffering. Therefore no effort directed to the body alone can do more than superficially repair damage. Treat people for their emotional unhappiness, allow them to be happy, and they will become well". Do the cases of the spraying cat and the dog with destructive separation anxiety immediately come to mind here? Flower remedies have been used for small animals, birds and exotics, farm animals, even plants. The best way to begin to learn the use of flower remedies is to start with "Rescue Remedy". This combination of flower tinctures is used to treat acute distress and anxiety, and many a competitor has learned that nervous show dogs and horses calm down as soon as they receive a dose. Many holistic veterinarians swear by keeping a spray bottle of rescue remedy in the office for treating the exam room when a particularly fearful animal visits. Below is a listing of the most popular remedies and their uses in behavioral problems. The remedies can be used in a number of ways. Two drops of the tincture can be administered directly on the gums or nose. The veterinarian may also advise clients to dilute the tincture in the drinking water - about 10 drops in a cup of water. Ideally the remedies are administered 4 times daily, but can be used every 5-30 minutes for acute behavioral problems. For long term use, 4 drops per ounce of spring water can be used; to prevent growth of contaminants over time, a teaspoon of vodka or brandy can be added. Mixtures of remedies increase the spectrum of treatment possibilities. Flower remedy therapy to treat emotional problems is very controversial in some circles, as one can argue that a human cannot possibly know an animal's state of mind. It is a risky business when we try to anthropomorphize our pets' thoughts and emotions. Still, general states of fear and anxiety are relatively easy to recognize, and flower remedies are very safe to use until behavior modification techniques can be instituted. As with any over the counter treatment, check with your veterinarian for a proper diagnostic workup for any behavioral problem. Many changes in a pet's mood or behavior may signal serious physical disease, and treating a problem of this nature with flower remedies alone might potentially cause great harm to the sick pet.

Flower Remedy Materia Medica

Categories

Fear: Rock Rose, Mimulus, Cherry Plum, Aspen, Red Chestnut Uncertainty: Cerato, Scleranthus, Gentian, Gorse, Hornbeam, Wild Oat Insufficient Interest in Current Situation: Clematis, Honeysuckle, Wild Rose, Olive, White Chestnut, Mustard, Chestnut Bud Loneliness: Water Violet, Inpatiens, Heather Oversensitiveness: Agrimony, Centaury, Walnut, Holly Despair: Larch, Pine, Elm, Sweet Chestnut, Star of Bethlehem, Willow, Oak, Crabapple Over-Concern: Chicory, Vervain, Vine, Beech, Rock Water, Rescue Remedy

Plants

Agrimony Animals who are stoic, but suffering in some way. Often chew themselves a great deal, and may be restless, constantly searching for some more comfortable place. May be good for wild animals in captivity who pace. Aspen For fear of impending harm This remedy may be good in cases of intense anticipatory fear, such as that of the storm dog , the submissive urinator or the dog that goes around with the tail between the legs, the skittish horse, and the "scaredy cat". It may also be appropriate for hospital animals where deaths have been occurring (research shows that certain animals may emit "death" pheromones, which other animals sense). Beech Picky eaters (especially cats), complainers/whiners, intolerant of changes in environment. Probably good for jealous dogs and spraying cats, when there is a new person in the household. Centaury For the animal who lets itself be dominated by the others, pushed aside by the others for food or owner's attention. This animal may also be overly focused on pleasing the owner at all costs. Cerato For an inattentive, unfocused animal; this is especially good in training and competitive situations. Cherry Plum For animals who lose control in fear or aggression situations. For instance, territorial dogs who tear up windows and fences to get to another dog, animals who become frantic when traveling, stereotypic behaviors; possibly also for uncontrolled seizures and allergic chewing. Chestnut Bud For animals with bad habits to break, such as chewing shoes, raiding the trash, barn headed horses. May increase awareness in training situations and make new lessons "stick" better. Chicory For extremely affectionate animals, who may be demanding - they are always underfoot, in the lap, or demanding food. May be useful for separation anxiety in dogs. These animals can become possessive and jealous. Horses may call for stablemates when separated. Clematis For lethargy, inattentiveness, and slow anesthetic recoveries. Crabapple The "cleansing" remedy. Used in detoxification from chronic drug or toxin exposure, or towards the end of viral and bacterial infections. Has been recommended to help clear out the emotional "history" subsequent to abuse, as well. Elm For animals overwhelmed with responsibilities - look for indications for this remedy in working and show dogs, and race horses. Gentian For setbacks, such as a worsening after a chronic illness. Also "depression" or lack of faith in animals expected to perform, or in animals who have been submitted to long term stress. Gorse Hopelessness. These are the animals who seem to have decided to die, and refuse to eat or improve during critical illness. Heather Animals the insist on being the center of attention. Animals that annoy the family for attention. Has been suggested for the destruction seen in separation anxiety, and for kenneled animals that clearly ask for attention from any worker due to insecurity. Holly For animals with a short fuse and become aggressive easily. These may be dogs, cats or birds with a tendency to bite, horses with a dangerous reputation. Has been used in animals with a history of abuse or neglect, leading to this aggressive personality type. Honeysuckle For grief or homesickness. Use when an animal has lost a housemate or owner, or in wild animals who mate for life. Impatiens For very nervous, anxious or agitated animals. Also for animals overly anxious at feeding time, before races, etc. Look for nervous trembling. Has also been recommended for epilepsy and pain. Larch For lack of confidence. The animal at the bottom of the pecking order in a multi-pet household, or animals that hide from other, domineering animals.. Can use to increase presence in competitions. Mimulus For the timid animal with well defined fears, such as storms, strangers, other animals, men, veterinarians, children etc. Some authors suggest that abuse may be in these animals' histories, and they may react to a threat variably, either by submission or by aggression if cornered; the reaction is always due to fear, however. Mustard It has been suggested for wide mood swings, such as for animals in season, depression, or in cranky older animals. Oak For a hard working animal showing signs of stress. Olive For exhaustion from physical exertion or disease/pain. Pine For rejected animals, given away or left behind. Useful in shelter animals. Red Chestnut For worriers, or the animal who stays at the window until its owner comes home. Rock Rose For abject terror. This remedy should be used for those storm dogs who will break through doors to run away. Can also be used to build courage in working dogs to accentuate their abilities. Rock Water For inflexibility. The examples used by one author are picky eaters who cannot be convinced to try other foods, and in arthritis cases. Scleranthus On the emotional level, this remedy supposedly helps "unbalanced" animals with changeable moods, or are "indecisive". The more common usage translates to neurologic problems such as vertigo (car sickness), seizures, one sided paralyses, etc. Star of Bethlehem For physical or emotional trauma, even historical trauma. This is a very important remedy. Sweet Chestnut For the high strung animal, or animals being subjected to chronic psychological stress. Vervain These are intense, hyperactive animals. Dogs are car chasers, fence runners, and constant barkers. Horses may pace or weave. Vine The animal who needs this remedy is the boss , especially in a multi-pet household. This remedy may be useful for dominant aggressive dogs, or the boss cat. Walnut Aids animals in adapting to change. This could include geographic moves, additions to a household (human or animal), transfer to a new owner, commotion during holidays, and for changes in routine for horses. Water Violet This remedy is for the aloof, loner animal. Has been suggested as a constitutional remedy for cats and hybrid wolves. Also may be used for grieving or sick animals who want to be left alone. *Rescue Remedy For any state of anxiety, distress, or fear. VERY useful in anxious show or working animals, also in adverse drug reactions and cardiovascular shock.

Bibliography

Blake, S. (1994) Bach Flowers and Their Use in Chronic Disease Proceedings of the Annual Conference for the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, pp 17-19. Orlando, FL

Kaminski, P. and Katz, R. (1994) Flower Essence Repertory Flower Essence Society Nevada City, CA

Scheffer, M., (1988) Bach Flower Therapy: Theory and Practice Healing Arts Press Rochester, VT

Stephanotos, J. (1991) Journal of the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association, 10 (3): 22-23; also vol 10 (4): 26-29.

Weeks, N. (1979) The Medical Discoveries of Edward Bach, Physician. Keats Publishing New Canaan, CT

Copyright)1996 AltVetMed, All Rights Reserved

-- James Wagener (hypermo@apci.net), June 10, 2000.

Chris,

I can concur experientially with James' recommendation of the Bach Flower Remedy labeled "Rescue Remedy". It was recommended to me by two different veterinarians. I use it for transporting horses, as well as on my small dog who hates to go to the groomers, and have found it to be very effective for calming them. It is also quite good for human stress situations. There is nothing harmful in it. It is a highly diluted essence of 5 flowers in a brandy base, along the lines of homeopathic principals.

-- (xxx@xxx.xxx), June 11, 2000.

Al-d,

put some of your [worn] clothing in kennel with him. smelling your scent could calm him. just an idea.

That is a GOOD idea. I know it works well with human babies and little ones, even with adults although they may not be aware of it.

Hospitals recomend it for infants and children, the stronger the scent - yes the body scent, they suggest clothing that has been warn without antipersperent, as that is what conforts the child subcounsiously. I would immagine the same would be true for animals, even if they are sedated, the smell would comfort them.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), June 11, 2000.

Many thanks to everyone for their very helpful suggestions.We shall be talking to our vet but Zeki is their first Anatolian.Advice from breeders ranges from giving nothing to giving a human travel sickness tablet with a sedative side affect. Our dilemma is that this breed has a thin veneer only of good behaviour & when the trained inhibitions are loosened dangerous havoc can result. He is a rescue dog who was beaten & shut up for long periods in the first 18 months of life so close confinement is going to drive him nuts.

We shall try the radio & yes he will have his smelly old dog blanket A snack will not work as he will not eat when stressed.Renting another Anatolian female would definately "do the trick" as he now knows which end is which & is longing to try out his new approach!

For us to buy the correct size crate would cost about 600$.A wooden one would be destroyed in 15 mins.

Cherri,dogs are indeed very sensitive to smell.Mike & I are sniffed over if we have been away for more than an hour and at least once a day we are rubbed over by a huge Karabash head.(This is where two sets of scent glands are located.)There is the "I'm going to stick my head in your armpit/crotch and twisted all around" movement or the gentler alternative - a sideways muzzle rub on the face with a whisker tickle. I don't think "I'm going to stick my big wet nose in your ear qualifies !

James,thanks indeed for those references.We have noticed that he seems to thrive on herbal dog biscuit but loses weight & interest on normal biscuit.In Turkey the dogs are only fed on cereal & are expected to catch their own protein;they work for days guarding the flock without the shepherd being present.They have to be kept on a much lower protein diet than "normal" dogs or become hyper.

Thanks to all your suggestions I be a little more knowledgeable when talking to the vet.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), June 11, 2000.

Get your dog very drunk a couple of hours before you take him on the boat. He'll sleep through most of the trip.

-- (Doctor@Jack.Daniels), June 11, 2000.

Benedryl, OTC.

-- Data_Junkie (none@avail.able), June 12, 2000.