Hi folks, food for thought.

While having a treatment at my chiropractor yesterday he and I were talking about out local school system and how some of the students seem to check out of learning sometimes in their elementary years, fifth or sixth grade. C.J., the chiropractor and friend, is running for the school board and really wants to find out what causes this lack of interest and what other schools are doing that keep the kids interested. Iowa and Mass. schools rate in the top five in the nation nearly every year and he wondered what they do differently.

As I thought about his question I thought of all the people on this forum who are homeschooling. My questions are: What do you see in your own children as you teach them that might be a reason for deciding to stop learning? Is the lack of enthusiasm for learning that some kids develop one of the reasons you decided to homeschool and if so, how would you correct it in the public system? Any other information about public schools and their shortcomings you have seen? Thanks for your help. I think C.J. will make a good board member, hes concerned about our students and doesnt have a political agenda. Thanks!

-- Betsy (betsyk@pathwaynet.com), June 10, 2000

Answers

Betsy -- I'll tell you exactly what my experience has been. I have a 6YO who is reading at a grade 10 level (he read Lord of the Rings last summer as a project) The school insists he stay in line with his "peers", and the teacher, while she tries, is overworked. We changed his school in November, trying to find a niche for him (i.e., a better teacher) and discovered something -- the "streaming" of schools has encouraged mediocrity. My son's current class of 21 consists of 6 Learning Disabled, 8 ADHD/ADD and the balance "moderate learners". He and one other child are exceeding expectations, so these are the children who are left to their own devices. With 14 "problem" learners, or students who refuse to sit at their desks and cannot be controlled, how is the teacher expected to teach? Streaming, however, is said to be a good thing. Right.

Children need to be challenged to maintain their interest. When the challenge stops, or when the teachers "give up" on them, they lose interest. Wouldn't you?

I'm not even going to enroll my younger son in school. He's being homeschooled now -- and I'm strongly considering pulling my other son. I supplement his education now, and feel that he needs the daily contact with a large group of children for his social growth. I doubt I'll be allowing it for long.

-- Tracy (trimmer@westzone.com), June 10, 2000.

Tracy, the idea that children need contact with a large group of other children for their social growth is a myth! It is one of the fallacies that have grown up in this country since public schools were instituted back in the mid-1800's. Most of our 'Founding fathers' were either taught at home or tutored by a local pastor or schoolmaster (often one and the same in small towns). I don't think they suffered socially by not being in a classroom environment, and most home-schoolers will tell you that home-schooled children are more socially mature, and better able to talk to and get along with people of all ages. This is important, because of course the world outside of school does not consist of age-segregated groups!! So if that is the only thing holding you back from home-schooling your older son, go for it!

Now, for the original question -- my girls are grown now and were home-schooled up to high-school, so I never saw the lack of a desire to learn in them. But I have seen it in children who have come into the Christian school at our church, and I think there are several factors. For one thing, often, learning isn't being demonstrated or encouraged at home. The children are spending way too much time in front of the TV or video games. They aren't being challenged -- the curriculum in the public schools has been so dumbed down over the last couple of generations -- and they know it. The classrooms don't provide an environment conducive to learning -- often they are in chaos, with out-of-control children making it impossible for the others to concentrate. And the children have no control over or responsibility for their own education. The last few years we home- schooled, my girls had responsibility for determining what they needed to do each day, and then doing it. I checked on their work, and helped keep them on schedule, but they learned good study and time-management skills that stood them in good stead in high school and college (middle daughter graduated in December, a semester early, with honors, working her way through). I'm afraid my solution for the public schools is to shut them all down and replace them with home-schooling and private schools -- a voucher system was in effect in parts of this country long before the public schools came into being, to make sure that even the children of poor families were able to get an education. The reason for that was to ensure that everyone would be able to read the Bible for themselves, and this helped make our nation the Christian nation that it started out to be -- now we are in the post-Christian era, as far as our country is concerned, and are paying the price. Well, that's my rant for the day!! Hope this helped!

I'm not sure if this didn't submit, or of my server is just being slow today, so if this goes in twice, forgive me.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 10, 2000.

I have worked at our local school for eleven years as an aide, so maybe I can add something to this discussion. A lot of what happens in the 5 or 6 grade has to do with hormones; the students get interested in other things (like the opposite sex) and school doesn't seem relevant to them anymore. A lot of this intrest is fueled by too much TV and raunchy music and video games; what you feed your brain is what comes out of it. Junk in, junk out, as the computer programers are fond of saying, and it works for the rest of life too. Combine that with a lifestyle that have Mom and Dad so busy with trying to keep up with the rest of the world (or just keeping their heads out of the water), and you get a kid who pretty much "checks out" of the educational world, because it doesn't intrest him/her.

Mainstreaming is the pits, for the most part. Some students are too disruptive (and heaven forbid that the school use corpral punishment, to help corral s/he). Some just can't learn; no fault of their own, they just can't. The poor teacher (often with no aides, or not enough) has to meet the needs of these kids, too, and the squeaky wheel gets the attention. Teachers HATE this; they see students falling between the cracks , but what can they do? The system has been forced onto them by the law, and unless a LOT of parents get off their duffs and holler like crazy, nothing will get done about it. But a LOT of parents don't want to be bothered; they'll miss their favorite TV show if they go to a school board meeting.

Another soap box is this; there is no moral foundation anymore in the school. We can tell kids all along to "be good;" but if there is no moral code, and no supreme being that you have to be held accountable to--then why be good? I have seen second graders from awful, broken home situations; some will be OK, but a few are just AMORAL. IT IS SCARY. What will happen to these little ones when they get to the upper grades? Are they going to be the ones with the semi-automatics, going thru the playground in revenge of an imagined slight from a class mate? And don't tell me "There ought to be laws..." These kids think they are above the rules, and they DON'T care. They'll get the guns anyway; how many law were broken a Columbine? Did the laws prevent the tragedy?

Teacher's days are constantly being piled fuller and fuller by state education boards who see the grades slipping, and impliment more curriculum standards and lessons. There isn't time to really DO the experiments that make the Science come to life, or use the Manipulitives in Math that make it easier for some; or to cook a meal over a fire and make bread, to help understand the pioneer life. It is like anything else; you can read all kinds of books on how to milk a goat or can tomatoes, but you can't assimilate it into your life in any real way until you have really DONE it. School lessons HAVE to have some hands on time, so it becomes more relivant to the students. SHOW them how fractions can be useful in doubling or halving recipies; accounting skills in balencing a checkbook, or geometry in figuring out how much wall paper or fencing you will need to get a job done!!!

OK, I'll get off my soapbox for a bit. Maybe someone will listen; I'm just an aide at school, and my degree is in something other than education, so my opinions don't count for a whole lot there. It feels good so air them here!

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), June 10, 2000.

I think a lot of it is boredom. The kids are not being challenged to learn. Then there are stupid, lazy teachers who are intolerant of any child that isn't like all the rest. Doesn't matter if he or she is smarter or just different, the teachers do find ways to punish any deviance from the "norm". Also, what healthy child wants to sit in a desk or on a schoolbus all day long, except for 15 minute breaks where the other kids can pick on you while the teacher looks the other way? The whole grading system is a joke- children need to learn a subject until they have mastered it, not get a C, D, or F, and then move onto something harder and get another poor grade. I honestly think that the system of public school is actually intended to promote mediocrity and to churn out good government citizens who all think alike.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), June 10, 2000.

I am a public school educator and a former school board member (8 yrs). I moved from NYS to VA. about 7 yrs ago. I embarked upon my teaching career. I teach special education. I would like to offer the following thoughts and observations on why public schools are failing. I homeschooled our youngest son the last 2 yrs of his school career. He did so much better. I regret not having done it when he was younger. He really trhived and excelled.

1. Schools are way too big, how can a teacher be expected to effectively teach when school administrators overcrowd classrooms and get waivers from the state? The current school I teach in, its at the elementary level, asked for a waiver to raise the numbers from 25 to 33 in 2-5th grades. those early years are so critical.

2. Teachers do not receive support from administrator when things become problematic or there are issues. Administrators expect us to be miracle workers... not only in special ed. but in reg. ed. too. the philosophy is "put up, shut-up or get out!"

3. Lack of support from parents and involvement. A lot of parents are young themselves now days and either they don't care or their poor parents are raising the kids. Children are sent to school dirty, sick, and sometimes go home to an empty house. Public schools are considered to be babysitters. I end up calling DSS or social services when my kids are returned to school because their parents were not home to meet them from the bus! A job I would rather not do but somehow a message has to be sent to these parents! Its their child and they need to take responsibilities. They don't even call the school or communicate in any fashion. When there are meetings or activities forget it... not to be found. They don't respond to notes or calls when there are concerns or questions about their child. But my favorite of all is when Johnny or Suzie does something wrong and they suddenly come out of the woodwork and threaten bodily harm because their child was disciplined. Their child does no wrong in their eyes but are the very kids who disrupt the class and make teaching difficult.

4. A earlier post mentioned mainstreaming of special ed students. I have yet to see mainstreaming of inclusion done according to the law! The schools are too cheap or either administrators too dense to realize there are requirements for this. The learning disabled are thrown into regular ed classes and receive no help.. the teachers don't want them there and don't care about any type of assistance or accomodations they are to receive. So no wonder they get frustrated and act out! The special ed. teacher who is to work with them is usually over scheduled doing other classes and cannot get the time to do collaborative teaching with teachers who have LD students in their classes. Another problem is the inclusion of emotionally disturbed students into reg. ed. classes. I hate to see this as they cannot function in those classes and succeed. They have poor social skills and need assistance with appropriate behaviors... so to place them in reg. ed. classes is just asking for trouble. I've experienced this first hand. They need a seperate program to be successful that stresses social skills and academics. As for ADD & ADHD children... they try hard and don't deserve to be blamed. They need either medication or special help in learning how to focus. They are eligible for services under 504 and this needs to be implemented!

5. DISCIPLINE....... the number 1 problem. Students have more rights than the teachers. Gone are the days when if you disrespected a teacher you were severely dealt with both at school and home. Administrators don't want to hear about it and do nothing unless its life threatening. The kids are also ver smart and can quote school policy and the law. They will tell you how far they can go! Then there are kids who demand respect and will use violence to get it. Guns are a serious threat.

6. Kids loose interest when they beging to experience failures... then as they advance in school they become discipline problems. I have researched and written professional publications on at-risk students and have not found any programs to be successful that involve early intervention thus far. The reason is its not continued throughout the school yrs. Also, the bigger the system the harder it is to give children the much needed educational attention that homeschooling can provide.

7. Too much BS (cow dung!) from people who talk at conventions, etc... they all like to psyche you up but then when the folks who go return they are met with opposition from school boards or the "its not a priority" attitude. Not enough practice of what is preached!

To me the ideal school would be a small school like the one I attended growing up where there was a small class size, homogeneous grouping (no fast learners with slow learners) and challenging teachers who extended themselves. And don't forget parent involvement!

Well... enough of me... I can go on and on.. I'll step down from my box now.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 10, 2000.

I can tell you one serious shortcoming that happened in the school my kids go to. On April 24, 2000 the school principal loaded grades 7-9 on a bus and shipped them off to a local whitewater resort to question them on their attitudes on drugs etc. The school board superintendent and several members of the board had decided to keep this project a secret from students and parents. In other words, no permission slip to ship my kids out of town 23 miles away. We were and are furious about this, but guess what, supposedly they didn't do anything wrong. My 13 year old told the principal he didn't think we wanted him to attend but she ordered him on the bus anyway. We signed a permission slip at the beginning of the year to allow our children to go on field trips, but the school had always notified us in the past any time the kids were taken off the grounds. All I can say about this is that they are all sorry we got so upset and that the school promises it will never happen again. My husband is planning to run for the school board next year to make sure of this. I'm tired of the schools focusing on the social and home life of our kids when they are supposed to educate.

-- Bill Tower (bbill@wtvl.net), June 10, 2000.

Well, Bernice and Bill hit that nail on the head. First, there are many parents that ship their kids off to school and forget about them until they show up at the door.They get angry when people discipline their brats because it shows their bad parenting, and yes, teachers do make mistakes. I'm a homeschool mom and have homeschooled for 10 yrs. I have 5 babies, actually my oldest 'baby' is 17 yrs. old and I adore him, his sis is 15, then 9, 7, and 4 yrs. old. I don't understand WHY you wouldn't WANT to homeschool. The time spent with them is the happiest and most satisfying and fulfilling I've ever had.

My uncle was the Director of Elementary Education in Wichita and retired the year before I started homeschooling. They were my biggest cheerleaders in my decision to homeschool. My aunt weighed all of 90 lbs. soaking wet and was the principal of an elementary school in Wichita. A little 2nd grader didn't bring back his permission slip signed, or got into some kind of trouble and missed the field trip his class went on. His mother came up to the school and cornered my aunt in her office (1971) and beat her bad enough that she spent 2-3 wks. in intensive care with a broken jaw and multiple broken bones in her face, ribs and other parts of her body. My uncle was the head of plant facilities, which saw to it that the desks were cleaned up at the end of the year, electricity worked properly, lights, heating and so on...

The schools no longer ALLOW for ANY independent thinking, problem solving, it's social engineering, teaching about things they have no business sticking their noses into. That's ON TOP of what Bernice and Bill said. There is nothing that can take the place of one on one teaching, the "classroom setting" in my opinion, is the worst environment to expect any child to LEARN in. Are they learning, or just being stuffed with information to monkey back to someone else? Can they figure out HOW to solve problems, or given solutions to scenarios. As far as social skills go, my kids social skills surpass mine or my husbands.

The govt. and public constantly whine at voter apathy. How many kids have read the Constitution and Bill Of Rights and KNOW what it says and means. It would take a History or Social Studies class all of 6 weeks to cover that, yet we're graduating kids who read incorrect information and base opinions on that. They believe everything they hear, they do not research on their own.

The problem Bill spoke of is a growing one. These people knew what they did was wrong, they knew parents would have a fit, it was to see HOW MANY would throw a fit. It gets a little easier each time to get away with it. The schools are more focused on learning what goes on in the home, and not so much to help the kids with troubled homes, altho, that's their platform, but to see how many of you are teaching your children contrary to the NEA philosophies. What are your opinions on homosexuality, religion, guns, etc. If ANY of you ever get the chance, go to one national NEA meeting and see what your schools are really wanting to teach...It isn't Science, Math, Reading, English...

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), June 10, 2000.

After spending 9 years in Iowa ,I would have to disagree about the quality of education in Iowa. The school buildings are falling down, some have collapsed with students in them. The teachers are old and can hardly pass basic math themselves. They juggle statistics to make Iowa look good while in reality you cannot get an education in Iowa !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 10, 2000.

I think Bernice gave an excellent answer. I am a strong believer in public education, went through the system myself and eventually became a faculty member at a public university (University of WI). I gave up the academic life to homestead full time but I do substitute teach at the local school (located in the county seat- population a little over 500).

I often wonder why homeschooled kids on the average do better (my own kids excel at public school). Personally I think homeschooled kids do so well because their parents care so very much. Kids in public schools who have concerned parents also do well. The problem is not all parents care. You may ask why I feel public education is so important, it is because I think all kids have a right to a decent education, not just kids with good parents!

I applaud the folks who homeschool, you are truly dedicated to your children. To the folks who use public schools, I also applaud you if you are involved and helping because you are dedicated to not only your children but all the children of your community! Kids deserve a chance at a good education - that's what public education should be about.

I guess the bottom line is be involved no matter which route you take!

Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), June 10, 2000.

I forgot one more factor.... the standardized tests that each state requires now for graduation. I see it as placing a lot of unnecessary pressure on kids and teachers. Then if your state is like NC and offers bonus money it becomes a bloody challenge. The expectations are unrealistic in a lot of cases and the folks who create these tests are so far removed from the classroom that they have forgotten reality! I say we get back to teaching the basics.. the 3 R's again! I am so tired of fads in education... guess I'm getting old.. but I was taught by teachers who believed in the 3 R's, went to college and saw the development of fads and now the entire development of the results of fad education! When performance tests are involved and accountability is at stake, then ultimately teachers align their curriculums to teach for the test. Its not a conscience effort, but it happens in order for everyone to pass. Until public school education changes... homeschooling, private schools and other alternatives seem to fare better. Oh... and that principal was sooo wrong and ignorant to make your daughter go on that trip without a signed slip... thats just plain stupidity! But then... I've met a few of those too in my career! Education is not about kids anymore... its about a power struggle and numbers..

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 10, 2000.

Hey Joel, It was a 19 y/o from Iowa that asked me "What language do they speak in England?" I was pregnant at the time and immediately started to worry about my child's education. I was asked the exact same question by another teen down here in NC!! If this wasn't bad enough I saw someone in NH study a world atlas, point to Gibralta and say "let's see, this is Wales here isn't it?" Obviously Geography is'nt at the forefront of the agenda. 14 year olds who have no idea what latitude and longtitude are!

Look at Nasa's abysmal performance lately. Billions of dollars worth of what is now nothing more than scrap metal littering the universe because half the scientists were using metric calculations and the other half weren't. And nobody noticed!!! The dummed down are showing up in some high places! But don't worry, I do know for a fact that kindergarteners are being treated to week-long courses expressley devoted to putting their little minds at ease on one particular subject: "It's ok to have two moms or two dads as long as they both love each other" Makes me want to spit!

That's all I have to say on the dismal apology for education many kids are being saddled with. God Bless America! Pauline

-- Pauline Adderley (tworoosters_farm@AltaVista.com), June 10, 2000.

BE CAREFUL !! If you don't write it in BIG LETTERS the new schools will teach the 3 R's as Robbing, Raping and Reloading !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 11, 2000.

Public schools are a place for social engineering. They are used to manipulate our children into believing that smoking is an evil, not just a vice, that sex is OK so long as you use a condom, and that if you even THINK any one around you is THINKING of doing anything illegal, you should turn them in "for public safety". Add to that the fact that Texas schools at least love to send out Communities in Schools forms with the kids. These forms give the impression that they are just there to enrich your childs learning experience, but if you read the fine print your signature gives them the legal right to haul your kid off any place and any time they see fit--to doctors, "counselors", etc., without your prior knowledge. The form also gives them the right to go through the child's and the family's medical records as well as ALL financial records!!!!! Some educational enrichment, HUH!!!

What is wrong with public schools? They are too large, the teachers either don't care or are undereducated themselves, and above all else, the government is constantly diddling with the schools, holding the lure of grant money over their heads to get either state or federal compliance. My oldest son's Algebra I class was actually taught by VCR tapes. The lady who was assigned to teach the class was actually a reading teacher, and almost cried when I went to her and asked her to help him because he didn't understand. She said that she was sorry, that she didn't understand either!! I also once had an eighth grade teacher tell me that it was up to me for my son to learn math because SHE didn't have time to teach the kids!!! And then there was the 7th grade English teacher who thought the US still only had 48 states, and that Puerto Rico was one of them. So much for Texas' excellent school system.

If I had it to do over again, none of my children would ever, ever, ever go to public school. That is one of my greatest regrets in life. What is the cure for public schools? Do like Kathleen suggested and CLOSE THEM DOWN. Either let the kids use vouchers to go to privately run schools or be homeschooled.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.

As a mama whose last homeschooled child graduated from homeschool high school last May, AND an investigative reporter who has covered several school boards in our area for the past 20 years, please tell your friend running for school board that there are so many major things wrong with public schools today I don't even know where to start!!!

I agree they are putting too much pressure on kids to test well, test well, test well and most of the time wind up "teaching the tests" instead of actually teaching the kids how to learn.

Plus, they say they want parents involved in education but in 90 plus percent of the schools around here, they've negated all parental rights....the school is the expert at everything in that child's life from age 5 until 18 AND THAT IS NOT RIGHT!

If more people attended school board meetings, and also learned of the wheeling and dealing going on behind the scenes, nobody would want to vote for additional tax money for the schools....in Jefferson County they have $65 MILLION DOLLARS in TAXPAYER MONEY FOR THE SCHOOLS that is UNACCOUNTED FOR!!! And that's just one case! It's happening all over.

When our country began, there were community schools run by the parents in the community....when that ceased to be education began it's downward slide.....

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.

I'm not going to defend public schools in general, but I am going to say that the situation is not hopeless everywhere. In my daughter's fourth grade class nearly a third of the children were reading well above grade level. A parent volunteer runs the gifted reading program and had to split it in half because there are so many gifted readers. The class studied traditional arithmetic (addition, subtraction, multiplication and division) as well as geometry, probability, cartesian coordinates (graphing), fractions and percentages. The entire school (K-5) has an annual science fair. My daughter and her friend did a survey of endangered animals. One fourth grade boy studied the effects of Nintendo on short-term memory: he demonstrated that it had a serious NEGATIVE effect as compared to reading and "free play." I personally know over half the parents for my kids grade levels and I know that they are mostly very supportive of their children's education. Not EVERY public school is ignoring the smarter kids. While I would love to home school, as a single mom in the city, I have to work (so I can save to get out of the city). But since my kids have to go to public school, I thank God daily that they have such a good school to go to.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), June 12, 2000.

Have you ever looked up the definition of "socialization"? You might be surprised at its meaning.

Socialization:

To place under government or group ownership or control. To be made fit for companionship with others. To be converted or adapted to the needs of society.

In case of the unauthorized filed trip I would say those children were well "socialized".

That is not to say I think it was right, just some food for thought.

-- Silicon Valley Man (netorcs@pacbell.net), June 12, 2000.

Just my .02 worth...

I spent 10 years in the public school systems of Florida; two of which were in the classroom.

The major problems I encountered: (1) too many rules to get _anything_ done; teachers spent more time complying with rules and paperwork than teaching the students. Inovation was a nasty word. (2) another matra was 'teachers are your parents' in other words, the parents don't want anything to do with the child because "it's the schools' job" - enough said on that issue (3) teach the test; you only need to know what's on the test, nothing else is required. (4) we can't hurt anyone's feelings, so everyone must feel good about themselves (ie, we can't segragate the population and provide education aimed at the student's failing/needs)

Okay, that's enough...I can tell you more but I'd rather not. I do not have good memories about the 'morass'... and I feel very sorry for our future with the kids that are being turned out (and I mean 'turned out' in the context of manufacturing, as in _manufactured consumers_ )

j

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), June 12, 2000.

I've been lucky in that my oldest son has had caring, loving teachers for his K and 1st grade classes.

Looking back at my own education (I graduated H.S in 1985), I can distinctly remember getting bored - because I was forced to mediocrity. I had several classes that were taught to the least common denominator, by teachers who didn't care, or teachers that couldn't teach, or teachers that would suffer the moranic antics of the kids who needed to have their butts busted. And given an enviorment were they as an inDUHvidual isn't cared about, why should it be suprising when a child doesn't stay interested in listening to someone drone on about a subject that they don't know either? Or isn't taught how to apply it to real life? That was one of my biggest problems going to school. I loved to learn, but why learn it if I can't apply it? Shop classes - GREAT. Immediate payoff. Social Studies - boredom! English - boring (not to toot my own horn, but more ot share why I got bored with school - I was tested in the 6th grade and found that I was reading on a 12th grade level). And every new year, the teachers would spend WEEKS or MONTHS teaching what should have been learned in the prior grade - but the students who should have been left back weren't. I remember there were more than a few tests where I blew the curve for the class, and had to suffer the wrath of certain inDUHviduals who were lucky they could spell their names without looking at the tags their mothers had sewn into their clothes, or count over 10 without taking off their shoes.

I was truly blessed with 1/2 decent study habits, parents who cared, and a natural desire to learn. And being a product of public education I can say I only had 3 public educators who have truly made a lasting impression on me. One taught wood shop, and was willing to let me work on projects of my choice (with his approval) once I demonstrated common sense and rudimentary skills. Another one taught elctricity / electronics, and again allowed me to be challenged by approved projects of choice. The 3rd one was a physics professor in the local community college who taught me how to THINK and REASON, and not blindly accept the answer my calculator spit out.

The wife and I are seriously thinking about home-schooling in the next year or two, since private schools are out. It's a shame when "gifted" (which I think is a politically correct term now for any child who isn't mediocre) children are considered to be handicapped - because they have to suffer through the day with all of the learning disabled / discipline lacking / hygenically challenged students (there are parents in the school system who DO send their children to school with obvious cases of head lice and worse), and all of the AFFORDABLE private schools are filled with the problem kids who got expelled from the public schools!

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 12, 2000.

You folks should do some research before taking at face value the tests that show a child is "on or above grade level". The standards for the tests have been lowered so drastically that they are pretty worthless. Take a look at materials for a grade from fifty or a hundred years ago -- yes, some information will be out of date, but the standards were a LOT higher. When my grandparents were in school, and even my mother, Latin was still a required subject -- and this was in a little one or two room school in the sticks of the Oregon Coast Range! They had to use a boat to get to town until my mother was in the fourth grade! I've seen the school books Mom and Grandad used, and they were a lot tougher than anything even I had in school, and I graduated in 1974. The Christian school at our church uses A-Beka, which isn't as strong as the curriculums of fifty or a hundred years ago, but sure a lot better than even what I had in public school twenty-six years ago. When I was teacher-aiding there, helping with the secondary English classes, there were grammar terms in their books that I don't remember ever hearing when I was in school! That said, I know parents get a little bit proud to think that their children are unusually intelligent -- or, in the case of homeschoolers, that the parents have possibly done an unusually good job of teaching! :-) But what you should value more is good character and strong ethics and work habits. A child of "mediocre" intelligence (and never never tell a child that he or she is "mediocre" -- I am just using the term to get a point across) will in the long run make more of his or her life, and be more of an asset to the family, community, and country, than the highly intelligent one, IF he has the character, ethics, etc. and the more "intelligent" one doesn't. I have noticed that sometimes the very 'gifted' child will coast through on minimal effort and never learn to really work at anything, while one to whom success comes only with a lot of hard work will do much better in the long run, and be able to make committments and stick to them.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 12, 2000.

Eric,

Just one point about the learning disabled kids, they would rather not be in classes with regular ed. students but are left with no choice. Due to IDEA, and federal laws. They feel poorly about their shortcomings as it is. Unless the school district is willing to spend money to include these kids already then it won't be successful for the child nor anyone else. I just was informed a LD student I worked with for 2 yrs died Saturday. she was 13 yrs old, in a wheelchair and had heart problems which left her mentally deficient, she learned but was slow. She loved being in class with her non- disabled peers and was vey astute. and the kids loved her too. I know Angelica would want me to say she was glad she had the opportunity to be with her non-disabled peers. She did not interfer with their education at all. Her brother is learning disabled and sometimes we just don't have a choice in the matter. I apologize for being so emotional, but I feel that its important folks understand that unless inclusion is done right it won't work and the kids who are LD loose out. Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 12, 2000.

Bernice, I understand and fully appreciate the plight of the LD kids, but it's just a bad situation for all involved. And I'm not blaming the LD kids - I realize it's not their fault God made them that way, and that the school system treats them the way they do. You and I can understand that, but children don't always. But it's still not right to reduce EVERYONE in the class room to the least common denominator in the name of "fairness".

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 13, 2000.

I have to agree with Eric.

LD is one issue, now let's introduce EH into the mix.

Great !

Now lets put the LD & EH kids in the room with the other 27 'normal' kids and let the one (1) teacher deliver useful, timely, and relevent instruction to EVERYONE. In a manner where EVERYONE is successful. And prepare the required seven days of lesson plans that MUST be on file in the main office and kept current. And perform all those other 'tasks as assigned' by the school administration. Etc, etc, etC...

j

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), June 13, 2000.

J,

They are already doing that in this country in many schools, (mixing LD & E.D.) especially in the rural schools in the south. Anyways... I don't want to get into a big debate over special ed and its impact on regular ed and student performance. There have been a lot of good points stressed on this thread. My thinking on this situation is to suggest getting involved in your local education system if there are elected school boards. In some places school boards are appointed by a county board of supervisors. But I am aware that this is rapidly changing now. But unless parents become involved more and citizens become politically vocal or involved, not much will change... it will stay the same. Its the power of the parents who can change the system, educators are powerless and administrators are limited. But when parents or citizens speak up... then things change. Please help if you can to change the education of children in this country before we loose more.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 13, 2000.

Bernice,

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I've seened what mixed classes do (and don't do). Some teachers are able to pull it off but a lot just can't.

I was a student in a rural Southern high school. We had two 'sections' in each grade. One section was for those 'more motivated' students and the other was for the 'slower' students. All the tests were the same and so were the expectations. But delivery was different and I believe that's what made it work.

You are right. Parents must get more involved to make change. There is a very good (if I can use that term) method to apply pressure to the school (and school district) to change. I don't know if all states fund their schools in a manner similar to Florida. Florida 'counts' their students and pays the school district based on enrollment. Maybe all do in some form or another. I would expect the methods and dates the counts occur to be public knowledge/law.

If a group of parents get together (let's say 20 for this example) and go to the school administration and say, "Mr (or Mrs) Administrator, we know the dates our students must be enrolled in this school for it to receive funds from the state. Unless you take some of our suggestions to heart, we will remove our students to a private/home (enter your type here) school for the duration of that period. Then we will re-enroll our students once that date window closes." In the state of Florida, a student is 'worth' about $4800/year. The student counts take place in October and February, and the disrict collects about half the total amount during each of the counts. There is an eleven day windows that a student must be in attendance for the school (and district) to collect funds from the state education agency. If you do the math, you'll see that the group of 20 students missing either of the counts would cause the school to experience a loss of around $48000. That will be a wake-up call. Expand the number of students to 50 and see what the impact would be...

I don't describe this process (or method) lightly or in jest. This is a heavy-handed method of bringing about change that must be used carefully and with consideration. But unfortunately, money/funding/contributions have become the final arbritrator when decisions are made.

If we want our schools back, we must be willing to use the tools at our disposal.

j

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), June 13, 2000.

J - at least one state (and I think most) "count" every day. And certain absences (medical) are "excused" (= the same as being there). In those cases your plan wouldn't work very well.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), June 13, 2000.

In NYS, VA & NC the students' attendance counts for money. However, with the advent of block scheduling students are allowed to miss only 8 excused absences per semester or in other schoold a maximum of 18 per yr depending on the setup. Now elem and Middle school vary but after 15 days the students are disenrolled in VA and after 3 in NC. So do the math there.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), June 13, 2000.

This is the rule, not the exception anymore. Now and days with the economy booming and with more money available for spending on wants than ever before, parents have taken to indulging their children overmuch, and giving them unreasonable outlooks on life. They think that things come easy and they don't need to work for them. This spills over into the schools when children expect to excel with the same ease of doing nothing and getting something. Parents also have gotten into the habit of letting their children have their way on too many things, and have failed to set limits. This also spills over into the schools, and children rebel at having limits set for them, which leads to trouble with attitudes and sometimes violence. Children, and young adults either get jerked back into reality by rules they must abide, or they rebel and refuse to try just on the principle that they deserve better. How do the parents expect these children to grow up and face the good with the bad if they expect everything to come easy? I am sick and tired of whining parents that have only themselves to blame for not raising their children to live in the real world. I'm sorry, but whining moms and dads need to sit up and take notice of what they are putting their kids through, and either start waking their kids up or shut up. I am not affiliated with any school, but I have had to deal with the brats out there, and I am ashamed to think that parents do not have enough common sense to guide their children to have better manners, respect for authority, and a zest for learning. Where do you think their basic learning skills come from anyway? Elementary school? No. You are your child's teacher of life for the basics, and if you don't teach them BEFORE they reach school age, then you have set the pattern for the disruptive confused child who has problems in school or creates problems for other kids in school. If public schools or certain teachers are so bad, then ALL children would fail. If your child is one of three in a class of thirty having problems, I seriously doubt that you would have a valid reason for blaming the school. As far as private schools go, don't forget that the one big thing they have over public schools, is that if your child becomes a problem, out they go. And good riddence. Down to earth children learn the basics at home and can survive in home school, public school, or private school. When we all start looking at the real problem, and correct it and stop trying to throw blame at someone else, (like we are teaching our kids to do), then we will see a change that is positive in our kids. Then they can learn. Stop whining and teach your kids!

-- Pam Threadgill (swco@bellsouth.net), February 15, 2001.

Betsy K. in 2000 Tracy R. Kathleen S. Leann B. Rebekah Bernice Bill T. Louise W. Joel R. Kim Pauline A. Green Suzy Deborah Silicon Valley Man J and finally: Eric in June of 2000 Pam in 2001...???????? Pam, you made a couple good points. I’m just curious, though, what possessed you to answer this thread at the present time? Curious minds need to know. (BTW we homeschool, and NEVER EVER lack for social life for these kids.)

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 16, 2001.