Retrospective: Death is more Humiliating than Terrifying : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

Digging through old bookmarks, I came across this gem, starring those remarkable Cascadians  Ashton & Leska. Reading this thread brought tears to my eyes once again.

As I posted on that prior thread, I post again  Bless you both.

A & L were pilloried on a thread here a few weeks back. I took one particular poster to task privately. Perhaps, as was the case with the gentleman I just mentioned, many are unaware of the Cascadians calling. Maybe this will help them to realize the foolishness in tearing down angels such as these.



-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000


Death is more Humiliating than Terrifying

-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000.

Always wear clean underwear. You never know.

-- (, June 10, 2000.

Bingo = A & L undercover?

-- (, June 10, 2000.

Hardly. Bingo is an old-time regular.

-- (I'm a@little.teapot), June 10, 2000.

I have two close friends that are caregivers to the terminally ill. One is a female the other a male. They do not know each other. The male is married to another registered nurse that works for a well- known plastic surgeon in this area. The female is single. Both take care of their patients in the private homes of the ill. Both of these people are well balanced and proud of their chosen occupations. Ashton and Leska are just a couple of crazy-assed loonies that are in need of special care themselves. To use their jobs as care givers as an excuse for being mentally unbalanced is just a pile of bullshit spin. Nuts is nuts.EOS! Bingo, you been foolin with the shrooms again?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

Hey Unc, you'll like this news...

"Great news for girl watchers: Ogling over women's breasts is good for a man's health and can add years to his life, medical experts have discovered.

According to the New England Journal of Medicine, "Just 10 minutes of staring at the charms of a well-endowed female is roughly equivalent to a 30-minute aerobics work-out," declared gerontologist Dr. Karen Weatherby.

Dr. Weatherby and fellow researchers at three hospitals in Frankfurt, Germany, reached the startling conclusion after comparing the health of 200 male outpatients - half of whom were instructed to look at busty females daily, the other half told to refrain from doing so.

The study revealed that after five years, the chest-watchers had lower blood pressure, slower resting pulse rates and fewer instances of coronary artery disease. "Sexual excitement gets the heart pumping and improves blood circulation," explains Dr. Weatherby.

"There is no question: Gazing at breasts makes men healthier.Our study indicates that engaging in this activity a few minutes daily cuts the risk of stroke and heart attack in half. We believe that by doing so consistently, the average man can extend his life four to five years."

It's worth a slap in the face! :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), June 10, 2000.

Would that I could be as they are, Ra. If A & L are to be classified as crazy-assed loonies, please count me among the same. I am a crazy- assed looney. Has a pleasant ring to it. To be drunk with God's nectar is to be unbalanced in your world - this world - so be it. Small price to pay for so rich a reward.

Please give your care-giver friends a hearty 'thank you' from this crazy-assed looney for their service to mankind.

Enjoy your weekend, Ra.

-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000.

Too funny Hawk..

"Just 10 minutes of staring at the charms of a well-endowed female is roughly equivalent to a 30-minute aerobics work-out,"

Well that just takes all. Time to put up the running shoes and give the hooter hobby another hour or so a day.

Bingo, I was already convinced that you are a little loony. All those drugs, so little cells left.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

Sure, giving care to the terminally ill is admirable. But last year, A&L were telling us that, *based on direct personal knowledge*, medical devices, medical care, hospital administration, and all whatnot was sure to collapse hopelessly. They'd been there, they'd seen the tests, they'd run the code, they knew. Nor was their story altogether inconsistent with the government's assessment that the medical field was in about the worst condition of any. And what do most of us know about this field?

When absolutely none of this happened, A&L's response was to say "We are very thankful nothing happened". But hey, A&L -- what about that code, what about those tests, what about those scrambled records. You SAW this. What happened? To which A&L responded "We are thankful nothing happened." Uh huh.

Clearly, they had no idea what they were talking about. I suppose when by definition all your clients are sure to die soon anyway, you don't *need* to know what you're talking about. Your incompetence doesn't come back to haunt you. It's comforting to know there's work I can do effectively after I become senile.

-- Flint (, June 10, 2000.

Why destroy this thread?

-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000.

Bingo 1,

They destroyed it because they could. Teenager-mentality. Challenge everything and create nothing.

They have not been touched by death. Or, they will not allow it to touch them. Thank you for reposting what Ashton and Leska wrote.

-- I'm (not, June 10, 2000.

You're welcome, ex-grinner. I'd hoped at least one individual, besides myself, would find that old thread of some value.

Flint, I welcome your comments - always. I wish you hadn't dirtied this thread with those particular opinions, however. Plenty of opportunity to air your thoughts regarding A&L and Y2K where they would have been more apropos. Go ahead, take your shots. I know what's coming.

This was a thread of special significance for me. Death has touched this household yet again. When I'm feeling a bit sad I've learned doing for others is an effective tonic. My attempts, such as this one, to do so often fail, as did this one.

As I stated in my initial post - Perspective.

-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000.

I did find that old thread of value Bingo me lad. It reminded me of the many months of protected status that the Cascadian Crazies had on the old forum. You were there dipshit so save the tears for someone that wasnt. Im sorry if you are experiencing some personal sorrow at this moment but its hard to tell the facts from fantasy anymore.

Have the best weekend you can!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

A&L are OK bye me.

Ra, I always liked a good counterpuncher but start a thread of your own. Tell all you belive and dont. Then wait, and wait, and wait for someone to give a shit.

-- Carlos (, June 10, 2000.

Why Carlos, I must have been out of town when you were elected to the thread police. I really dont give a shit what assholes like you think or suggest. I see a thread started with A&L mentioned and Im on it. You like them freaks so much why not drag your sorry ass over to the EZ board where they still live as the 'Cascadians', chemtrails, cosmic visions, and all. Adios!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.


From my perspective, A&L did their best to frighten people with medical problems -- people under constant care, in hospitals, or with diabetes or other conditions that require constant treatment A&L repeatedly said would no longer be available, or was sure to be misapplied. And all of this relentlessly terrifying "from the horses mouth" information was completely without merit, serving ONLY to frighten helpless people.

If you consider this angelic or compassionate, I consider you out of your mind. A&L did an admirable calling a reprehensible disservice. I can appreciate your emotions here, and there are many who amply deserve them. A&L clearly do not. They are a discredit to their profession.

-- Flint (, June 10, 2000.

The basic truth on forums such as this is believe nothing that is said unless proven beyond a doubt. You may draw conclusions but be not afraid to debunk the ravings of the ill. Ive never seen any proof that A&L are caregivers or for that matter, two different people. Some lessons are easy and others are hard. Based on the posts from A&L, one thing is certain: Seriously Disturbed!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

Flint, you dismiss the possibility that A&L believed what they said. Same old stuff. If you were wrong about y2k then the concerns you had that led you to influence or worry about others was damned near criminal or at least unprofessional. What's the gap here? The right were right and the wrong were wrong but why the recrimination against those whose best efforts and thoughts were swayed by say the State Department perhaps. I don't get it. This witch hunt crap is tiring.

-- Carlos (, June 10, 2000.

Thank you, Flint. Your compassion is appreciated & inspiring.

There's a time & place for slash & burn tactics. This wasn't it. Of course, you'll state this is a public forum & therefore all comments are open for debate. You are quite correct.

A dose of tact might have been called for on this particular thread. But then again I'm out of my mind, so please don't take my words to heart.

-- Bingo1 (, June 10, 2000.

Carlos, if A&L honestly believed everything they said on the old forum then they should be put under constant supervision by mental health officials. Before you attach your reputation to the beliefs of A&L you might take the time to revisit their insanity over at the TB2000 archives. Or not.


-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

Doesn't matter if I believed them Ra. Matters if they were being honest. You think they're stupid?

-- Carlos (, June 10, 2000.

Stupid? Not in the classic definition. Unbalanced? Most likely. On major league drugs? Most certainly.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

What drugs do you guess?

-- Carlos (, June 10, 2000.

OK Carlos, Ill play. My guess would be some varieties of hypnotic sedatives such as:


Aquachloral Supprettes



If A&L are caregivers they have access to the good shit, no common street stuff for them/he/she/it. Your turn.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 10, 2000.

This is too easy. These are drugs of historical interest only. There might still be some Nembutal out there but midazolam (Versed) for instance was pulled by the FDA at least ten years ago. You need a new book my friend.

-- Carlos (, June 11, 2000.


It's the same old thing... hindsight is always 20/20, and the egotists that were, mostly by accident, RIGHT !!!!!!!... hang around and teardown anyone they can, anytime they can, anyway they can.... for anything they can think of.... small minds IMHO.

My folks are old, and were very concernd about the rollover. They took steps to "insure" there own health... their OWN SURVIVAL !!!!!!

I see nothing wrong with A and L doing the same for those they cared for.... RIGHT or WRONG about the unknoweable outcome.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 11, 2000.


Actual straight talk? No sneer, no smiley-face? Are you sure you're all right man?

(Maybe you can see if OTFR can just delete this post before you make it even worse with more of this kind of talk........I won't tell anyone.)

-- Debbie (, June 11, 2000.

Straight talK Deb, If I was tempting Chris to delete a post I would have made it to the one sneering at those who left their mates. Now why don't you take your trolling ass somewhere else?... I seldom call a woman a cunt, but some times it fits :-) ;-)

Can you see the finger I'm holding up?... it doesn't mean you're # 1

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 11, 2000.


It was a backhanded compliment, I deserve to be sniped back at....

Most of the time you speak in riddles while taking undeserved pot-shots at decent people. I hardly ever hear about your ideas or about what you think. It was refreshing, to me, to hear you speak that way, even if I don't agree with you on some points.

But I have no idea of your real purpose here, and maybe that is not it. So forget it...

-- Debbie (, June 11, 2000.


Sorry about the "c" word..... It's never personal, this is just a game.... I know a lot of "old time things" about a lot of Old time forum regulars.

Some are inoccent, some just have big mouths and egos.... The inoccent I can deal with..... egotistical. assholes I have a problem with :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), June 11, 2000.

Carlos, you said,

(Versed) for instance was pulled by the FDA at least ten years ago.

While you may mean, "easily accessed on the street", Versed is still used in hospitals now. If A & L are medical people, they could get it by not giving it to their patients as prescribed.


Why *not* start at a more basic level like with airplane glue, pot (for Bingo), mushrooms, crack, heroin, etc?


-- Someone (, June 11, 2000.

Bingo 1,

Your attempt did not fail. What does it matter who or what Ashton and Leska are if some of their ideas bring comfort?

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light...."

Well, I've fought that battle four times. The last time was at home care, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 362 days each year for four long years. I lost. Christmas Eve 1993.

I did my best. And I lost. It was devastating.

Even now I am consumed with "But what if I had done..." In the end I am comforted by the thought that, although I did my best, I was not calling the shots. It was not my decision to make.

More than anything, I long to see those people again.

So, once more, thank you for the posting.

-- I'm (not, June 11, 2000.

Your post, ex-grinner, was what this thread was to be all about - sharing loss, relating experiences. It was not to be. My deepest sympathies for your losses. Please don't live in the past merely to beat up on yourself. Find the lessons, learn them, move on to the next. So easy, eh! ;^)

When my eye is spit in repeatedly logic dictates I turn my back to the source(s) of the saliva. My eyes can hold a great deal of spit. There comes a time when it overflows down & into my mouth, leaving a distinctly bad taste in it.

The time to turn away draws near.

-- Bingo1 (, June 11, 2000.

Finally, after wading through all the garbage, a beautiful post, ex- grinner. Thank you for sharing. Too bad there's a lot of sifting that has to be done on this thread. It shouldn't keep people from presenting decent subjects, however. You did well, Bingo.

-- Normally (, June 11, 2000.

Before you spaced-out dopers choke on your drug induced tears let me remind you that Bingo 1 started this thread with a glowing testimonial to the freaks known as A&L. By doing this he opened up the floodgates for those of us that suffered through the months of the crazy bullshit spewed by the Cascadians. All of you delusional asswipes that are such big fans of theirs can find them over at the EZ board, where you Y2K losers can hold hands, sniff the contrails, and chant about your next world-ending disaster. BTW, notice when LL is not around look what crawls out from its rock.the little wuss netghost or whatever. Be careful there toasty or Laura will return and rip you a new one. Next time you are looking for sympathy Bingo, leave the loonies out of your thread.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.

NOW you got me going, Ra. There is nothing wrong with the Cascadians. Actually, I found them to be admirable folks. And they were reading the indications about Y2K with as much prudence as any well-informed people who were concerned about the welfare of others.

There has been too much contempt in this forum for people who made choices based on honest concern for humanity and on government indications that there was something to worry about, even while it stonewalled our concerns.

In the long run, it is those that foresee danger, take precautions and try to spread the word who should be appreciated, even if they turn out to be wrong and you dont like their attitude. They were society's insurance policy, and God help us in the future if we lose people with intentions like that. Make up your own mind about things, but occasionally your life may depend on their early warning radar.

-- Normally (, June 11, 2000.

Do I dare enter this controversy?

Bingo: I think that had you addressed your loss in your original post, expressing a desire to discuss the death experience and solely the death experience, this thread wouldn't have moved in this direction. As it stands, however, you mentioned the previous thread and your assumption that folks were unaware that A&L worked as caretakers. Essentially, you introduced TWO topics, but only wanted to discuss one.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

Normally, what planet were you on last year?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.

Yours, Ra, unfortunately. I won't include you next time.

-- Normally (, June 11, 2000.

Thank you Ox.

You are correct, Anita. Poor job of communication on my part. I came across A&L's old thread, was moved tremendously, and felt it best to share it with others. I should have waited until the impact of that thread upon me dissipated, then posted with more (some?) clarity.

I'm teaching myself to act more from my heart & less from dry intellect. Each must be balanced by the other. This is a good lesson. The painful ones usually are.

Had I anticipated the reaction to this thread, obviously I never would have started it. May I express publicly, as I shall do privately, my sincerest apologies to Ashton & Leska for dragging you two into the town square to be drawn & quartered. I knew not what was in the hearts & minds of a few on this forum. I'm terribly sorry.

-- Bingo1 (, June 11, 2000.

If A&L are societies insurance policy than I say claim denied. Pass the oxygen quick, the patient is slipping away fast.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.


God Bless you, excellent post!

-- Deb M. (, June 11, 2000.


At the risk of tossing salt in your wounds, your latest response looks like you WANTED to discuss A&L beyond the thread mentioned, but you only wanted feedback from folks who agreed with you.

You weren't on the forum until the end. Many of us were, and my opinion is that these folks put forth some pretty nasty, scary stuff, especially after they got the spare set of keys to the forum. I think EVERY profession should be honored. Your recent loss and the thread you presented allows you to dismiss all other input from A&L. Flint and Ra REMEMBER the other posts, and you consider their input "dirtying up the thread." You go further to criticize what is in the hearts and minds of the folks on this forum, while completely ignoring the statements of A&L outside of this one thread.

I honor A&L for their simplistic lifestyle. Not many folks would share an $8/hour income when they could make more money working independently at MacDonalds. I honor the love and commitment for each other that encourages them to both work for the wage of one so that they might spend all their time together. They've obviously picked up techniques throughout the years that are appreciated by the dying, and I'm sure they've developed a solid reputation in this area.

Does this make them angelic? I don't think so. They've developed a philosophy regarding death and dying which sustains them while they engage in their daily routines of caring for dying people. We all develop philosophies that help sustain us in our daily routines. My opinion is that A&L were more vulnerable to the "everyone's going to die" philosophies than folks who spent their days in other pursuits which may be just as/if not more meaningful.

I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sorry for the loss of Capn's friend's daughter, as well as the multi-year experience presented by the poster above. Losses must be dealt with as best as we can, and I have no argument with your choice of this thread as comfort in this area.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

Anita, I have often admired your intelligent, measured way of responding to various forum squabbles. My methods are not quite so subtle but I desire to be clear where I stand, even at the risk of offending those who just cant seem to grasp the reality of it all<:). Im sure that your input is given more credence than mine so thanks for setting out some of the background on A&L for the uninitiated.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.

Anita, as to your first paragraph, I have absolutely no idea how you could come to that conclusion. None whatsoever. And dont worry about contributing to magnifying any pain which I might be experiencing. Its the living who pain me, not the dead. Besides, at this point I just would like to know how I could have been so blind to the hatred of A&L. No one can answer that one except moi.

As to my perception of a few of the contributions written & posted to this thread as trash: I should have expected as much from Andy Ray & those like him. I wasnt prepared for the onslaught of accusations of drug use, incompetence on the job, etc. Are they druggies? Did they abuse patients? Maybe do a Kevorkian? Why throw these heinous charges out willy-nilly? Because A&L led people astray? They were dead wrong about Y2K? So not only should they be denigrated, but this should be done on a thread which has nothing at all to do with Y2K! Of course. Thats forum logic. How could I have been so blind! can I invoke Lilith on this one?

I somehow thought the thread would be respected. Hows that for ignorance + wishful thinking!

As I stated above I made a huge mistake in starting this thread. Ive apologized to the Cascadians publicly & privately. That few who viewed the linked thread found it to be inspiring & informative enough to post their opinions & experiences regarding death, terminal illness, spiritual ramifications of death, etc., tells me Im out of touch with reality forum-style. That the content was of such little use or outright ignored in favor of blasting A&L for previous transgressions reinforces this conclusion.

Websters definition of angel: #5. a person who performs acts of great kindness.

Do I believe A&L are angelic? Based upon many communications with them, based upon my intimate knowledge of their spiritual practices, based upon their chosen field of work  YES. You are welcome to disagree. All are welcome to disagree. Im not out to convert each of you to the teachings of the cult of Cascadia.

I just wanted to help others by turning them on to a thread which has helped me immensely. My admittedly thin skin has exacerbated the problem in that I cant seem to let go of this thread.

Just keep digging that hole, Rich. Wont be long before you can jump in & issue the call for them to cover you up.

Thanks for your thoughts Anita. You too Flint.

-- Bingo1 (, June 11, 2000.


Your thank you to ox at the beginning of the thread indicated to me that you desired to discuss A&L in addition to death/dying experiences. Ox didn't address death/dying, nor did he/she do anything but present a personal opinion of A&L.

The rest of your latest post is, IMO, pure emotion. Personally, I have no ill feelings toward A&L at all. They decided on a career which provides them continuous time together. I do NOT think they take drugs, or anything like that. I think they're good people. I think MOST people are good people.

Perhaps at the crux of our disagreement is our concentration. In another thread, at another time [perhaps on the old forum] I related a story about a kind woman we know and her husband. Her husband is very loving to her and does a great job fixing cars. I honor him in these endeavors, and had this been all I knew about him, I would have thought him worthy of praise. However, I saw more than this when invited to their home. There, like here, the behavior was exhibited in an area completely outside my previous knowledge. You've moved much farther along than I if you can focus only on the good things folks say and do while dismissing all other behavior.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.


I believe Bingo was saying "thank you" regarding my post higher up, when I expressed appreciation for decent thread subjects like this one was supposed to be, and I referred to ex-grinner's comments about loss.

I don't think it concerned my more recent defense of A & L. I simply told Bingo I thought he had chosen a good topic.

-- Normally (, June 11, 2000.

You've moved much farther along than I if you can focus only on the good things folks say and do while dismissing all other behavior.

If my dismissal of 5-6 months of posts by A&L which I never read equates to dismissing all other behavior, then you've pegged it, Anita.

-- Bingo1 (, June 11, 2000.


Sorry that my thoughts don't all descend at once, but they don't. You said: "That few who viewed the linked thread found it to be inspiring & informative enough to post their opinions & experiences regarding death, terminal illness, spiritual ramifications of death, etc., tells me Im out of touch with reality forum-style."

I don't think you're out of touch with reality at all, forum-style or any other style. I think what's upset you right now is the lack of confirmation by those who haven't engaged in the death experience recently enough to remember.

Death comes in many forms. I already related my first devastating experience with death in the thread I started on reincarnation. I was at University at the time, and missed two weeks of classes because I simply couldn't get my head together to attend. This was due less to my grief over the loved one than my realization of my own mortality. I had a best friend who responded to my professors regarding my absence, and my professors were concerned enough to discuss my experience on my return.

My experience with terminal illness came when my father took ill with cancer. Fortunately, he was able to stay home after his surgery and die in his sleep 5 months later, with only trips for dialysis every other day. Of course this terminal illness wasn't diagnosed until AFTER my mom tried to commit suicide for fear of living without him. I discussed all of this on another thread, and have no intention of repeating how hard it was to work full-time, raise three kids and daily visit parents that were in two separate hospitals, while also making arrangements for the sale of their house [more full than that of Gilda's mother, I'm sure], and arrange for their entrance into a facility once their hospital stay was no longer necessary.

Ordinary folks do these things. They always have. Ordinary folks deal with death. They always have. You will too.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

From my perspective it was not so much WHAT A&L said as HOW they said it. They saw evil conspiracies at every corner and were overly adamant concerning their absolute, expert-based certainty that all would happen as they said it would. For a time they were giving real- time chemtrail reports from the back porch on a daily basis. For crying out loud, an honest cloud didnt have a chance with those two. Besides, my experience with the Portland area is89% overcast. How the hell can you SEE a chemtrail, even if there was such a thing? BTW, did I understand someone to say that these two work as a team for the grand sum of $8.00 per hour? Whos kidding whom here? Let me ask you folks a question. You have a loved-one that is dying and needs 24/7 care in their last days. Would you hire TWO people that would work for $4.00 per hour each? I think not.

Get a grip Bingo. Why did you even start this thread with 'death' as the key subject? Did I miss something here? It would appear that your self-proclaimed long-term drug use has taken its toll. Rack em.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.


It could very well be that my interpretation was incorrect. Perfection for me is light-years away.


There was a certain escalation in strength of opinions during the last half of 1999 by some, particularly those who obtained the forum keys. It was as if this escalation was a prerequisite. IMO, to have followed the forum throughout 1998 [when just about EVERYONE saw Y2k unfolding in negative form] and have missed the obvious escalation indeed constitutes a partial picture.

Regardless of anyone else's opinions, Bingo, I think you capable of separating the grain from the chaff and bringing information into your life that sees you through your grief. I've encountered MANY folks throughout my life who had opinions/behaviors of which I disagreed. However, they posited one kernel of something that I honored, and I'll never lose sight of their input in that area.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

I'm willing to let this thread die. It's clear I'm not able to communicate adequately. Not, however, because of the death I briefly mentioned above. I'm just a worn-out, burned-out corpse in motion.

The person died in an auto accident on June 3rd. A close friend of my wife. Someone who had come a great distance in his 32 years this go- round. I wouldn't want to go quickly as he did. Tough to put one's spiritual eggs in their appropriate baskets.

Anita, I appreciate the concern but it is misplaced in this particular instance. Let's put this baby to bed. I see nothing being accomplished except miscommunication & nastiness.


-- Bingo1 (, June 11, 2000.


I'm quite willing to let this thread die, but first must address Ra's comment regarding the two folks working for $4.00/hour each.


The dying process [even the illness/aging process] doesn't necessarily come at a time when folks have flush pocketbooks. It's my understanding that A&L work for the one wage because their duties include things like rolling, lifting, etc. and whoever took the job initially found it extremely difficult to do alone. The mate chose to help, and it works for them and the patients in their care. That's the important thing.

I had a cleaner once that brought her husband to help on the job. Did I care? No. I was paying ONE wage, per our agreement. If she'd brought her kids along and could get the job done in an hour, I wouldn't have complained either.

One of the reasons I moved my mom here to Texas was because we couldn't afford to have 'round the clock care in addition to the rent paid at her independent facility. She was not dying. She's simply epileptic and has had more than her share of falls, etc.. Two for the price of one sounds pretty good to ME.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

Anita you seem to have some personal knowledge that A&L work for this outrageously low wage so Ill not question the validity of the amount. I will however state that anyone with the skills required to be a caregiver that would work for $4-8.00 per hour must have some serious problems. Give me a friggin break here..they must be on public assistance at that income level. This is just another factoid about these two that wont hunt.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.


They posted that information last year. You must realize that they live in the homes of others, so the only thing they need is a storage apartment housing-wise for their personal possessions. I remember having problems grasping the concept of a storage apartment, so remember the complete conversation. I'm too lazy to search for the link to the thread.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

I am all for giving this thread a rest, but I cannot resist adding to the wage comments. Here in Florida, it is common to do skilled office, computer database and client service work for $6 per hour, no housing provided, certainly no public assistance, food stamps, etc. And sometimes that is all the employment that is available for people with a college background. People take what they can get.

-- Normally (, June 11, 2000.

Around here, $8/hour is an *excellent* rate for such care, when you realize that this rate applies 24 hours a day. That is, you're getting $8/hour for a 168-hour week. That's like $64/night just for sleeping, because you're on call (and can't often sleep 8 hours at a stretch under those circumstances).

But translate this to an ordinary 40 hour week, and it comes to $33/hour. Two people can live on that, I assure you. *Especially* when they only have a storage apartment.

-- Flint (, June 11, 2000.


In Illinois the caretakers got $8.00/hour. The families of most clients go through agencies for this care, so the rate is $11.00/hr., with the agency taking $3.00. I remember discussing rates, etc. when my mom needed help and the agency made a point of asking whether she needed around-the-clock NURSING care, or around the clock "babysitting". My mom has a nurse who came in once or twice a week. Her rate was MUCH higher, but she was certified to take blood pressure, etc., where the caretaker was not. I think this is where RA isn't making a distinction. Caretakers do for old folks what babysitters do for babies. It's their job to bathe, comfort, control, etc. THEY live in, while the nurses make quick, occasional visits. BTW, Flint, my mom's caretakers DID have a day or two off a week, but the wage is definitely sufficient for one who has no other responsibilities.

-- Anita (, June 11, 2000.

Actually Anita, I understand quite well what a caretaker does as I have some friends in that field. I would agree with Flints math if they were getting the $8 per hour on a 24/7 basis. I spoke to one of my caretaker friends about 5 minutes ago and she told me that she has never worked for an hourly rate. If she lives in or not she is paid a salary. She doesnt know anybody in her field that would work for less than $14 per hour pro-rated. Of course this is Southern California not Dog Patch. In any case I stand by my earlier assessment on A&L.LOONIES!!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 12, 2000.


-- al-d. (, June 12, 2000.


I found it interesting that your friend does not know anyone in her field that works for an hourly rate. Several months ago we hired a squadron of caretakers who charged an hourly rate of $11-$12, working in 12 hour shifts each.

Perhaps we were just fortunate to find them, through Cedars-Sinai here in Southern California.

As for A&L, they always struck me as two people who try to make the most out life, probably all the more because of what they do. Loonies? Perhaps, but I know that *I* never considered that an insult!

-- Grace (, June 12, 2000.


Perhaps I should have qualified my statements regarding my sources. Although my friend that I talked to has been a caregiver for many years she basically works alone and her scope of industry knowledge may be limited compared to others. What I stand by is my amazement that anyone at this level would be working for $4 or $8 per hour. If you live in Southern California you know that day laborers make this wage. I employ them all the time so I know what I speak of. It was a mistake on my part to veer away from the issue at hand which was the outrageous behavior of A&L on the TB2000 last year. If you were there and you think otherwise, well Im sorry for your loved ones.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 12, 2000.


I understand what you mean about the wages in Southern California. I know housekeepers who charge in excess of $10 per hour, so it is amazing that someone would *choose* to work for $4-$8 when potentially they could earn twice that amount.

I know that I would never do that, but I also know that I could not do what A&L do, for any amount of money. Perhaps they are extremely compassionate and selfless people. Or maybe you get what you pay for.

I was indeed on TB2000 for most of last year, but I admit that I did not read every post or every thread. Although I witnessed a tremendous amount of outrageous behaviour from a lot of different folks, I just don't recall anything particularly heinous about A&L.

No reason to feel sorry for my loved ones, Ra... but thank you so much for the sentiment.

-- Grace (, June 16, 2000.

Although I witnessed a tremendous amount of outrageous behaviour from a lot of different folks, I just don't recall anything particularly heinous about A&L.

I think their reaction to the September 1999 Y2K Senate Report here says something:

Yep, exactly what we've been telling y'all ...

From the trenches, this is the truth:

The CULL SCYTHE will swing.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (, September 22, 1999.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 16, 2000.

Ra - Please get laid. It will do wonders for your attitude.

Anita - Perfection for me is light-years away. You'll get closer to the goal when you stop acting so damned condescending and "superior".

-- sheesh (, June 17, 2000.

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