1946- the tax meme cameth

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

And the people wondered briefly; but the word was put forth that it is so, and the people were deceived, yet believed, and it became.....well...."everybody knows"....

Before World War 2, payments (property) received by individuals in even exchange for their labor (property) were not considered to be subject to income taxes. During the war a "Victory Tax" was imposed on wages as an emergency measure to help pay for the war. When the emergency was past,the reason for the war tax no longer existed, but the withholding process continued, in spite of contradictions with taxing powers as enumerated in the Constitution.

It would appear that this misunderstanding has been intentionally promoted through carefully worded publcations and news releases. Consequently,Americans have been led to believe that they are required to pay an income tax on everything they earn. However, when the IRS"s publications, U.S. Supreme Court decisions, and the Internal Revenue Code (income tax law) are studied carefully, they show that for individual, paying income tax is voluntary and that the filing of form 1040 is also a voluntary action that is not required by law.

Article 1, Section 1, Clause 1 of the Constitution says:

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Most of the Articles are very specific and to the point, easily understood by the average man, and one reason for that is that a law that is unclear can be void for vagueness. Each and every word should be easy to understand.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 06, 2000

Answers

Hey, dude, what you been smokin'? Inhaling that Chemtrail stuff again? Heavens, where'd you get this crap? Anybody believes this is so far out to lunch they've almost not left breakfast.

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 06, 2000.

No facts again, just flames. But your welcome to post somw.

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 states: "Representative and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers"

And Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4 states:

"No capatation or other direct taxes shall be laid, unless in apportionment to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken." These basic sections of the Constitution have never been repealed or amended. The Constitution still FORBIDS the direct taxation of individuals, their property, and their rights.

Article 16 states:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration. Articles of the Constitution cannot contradict each other or they would void each other. So with regards to the 16th Amendment and taxes; the Supreme Court ruled in Brushaber v.Union Pacific Railroad Co. that since the provisions of Article 1 , requiring that direct taxes be apportioned, were not repealed, they are still in force and effect. And , that since the language of the 16th amendment specifies that the income tax is to be a tax without apportionmet, then it cannot be a direct tax, because otherwise the Constitution would inherently contradict itself.

Does the Constitution contradict itself? The answer came from The Supreme Court in Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 US 112 (1916), stating:

"...by the previous ruling, it was settled that the provisions of the 16th amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being TAKEN OUT of the catagory of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged.."

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 06, 2000.


Your exactly right about the tax laws. What has happened here is WE THE PEOPLE fell asleep at the wheel. Also when you look at Artical one section 8 paragraph 17 you find that congress only has juristictional authority over a 10 square mile area, and federal territories, and anclaves. No where in the constitution does it give them authority over States or the people. There power is found in Artical one, section 8. That is all the people gave them. Anything more then that is done via an Amendment and passed to the states for ratification. And we wonder what happened to our wonderful Republic.

-- Apollo (Apollo9733@AOL.com), June 06, 2000.

2 Retired IRS Agents "EXPOSE" the income tax scam.

We are 2 retired IRS Agents and we have witnessed the IRS defrauding Americans for many years. It is destroying the freedoms of ALL Americans. It "MUST STOP" and it is now time to expose this fraud to ALL Americans.

We challenge you to ask ANY IRS Agent to show you a Statute that "REQUIRES" Americans to FILE Income Tax. They cannot find it. There is NO LAW that makes ANY American "liable" or "subject" to pay or file Income Tax. IRS fraud expert, Irwin Schiff 702-877-2833 offers a $5000 award to anyone who can find such a statute.

Bill Conklin from Denver offers a $50,000 reward. His phone number is 303-455-0837, in case you can find such a Statute. His web site is www.anti-irs.com He also offers a "free book" about the IRS that you can download and print up.

The IRS has for many years used Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing and Enforcement Regulations (Title 27) to "ENFORCE" the Federal Income Tax (Title 26) and has used the ATF Regulations to fraudulently take homes and bank accounts away from Americans. Because the Income Tax is voluntary and un-Constitutional, the IRS Code has NO Enforcement Regulations! So in order to BLUFF Americans into paying Income Tax, the IRS uses Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing Regulations to force and to defraud all Americans into paying Income tax that they are not required to pay.

The IRS is DEFRAUDING ALL Americans and is bankrupting and impoverishing America by "GIVING" all our Income Tax payments to the Federal Reserve Bank in payment for the "PHONY' Federal Debt. Look on the back of each and every check of Income Tax payment you have ever paid to the IRS. With the stamp shown below,the IRS has signed over ALL your Income Tax Payments to the Federal Reserve bank. YOUR INCOME TAX IS NOT USED TO RUN OUR GOVERNMENT. This fraud will BANKRUPT America.

The IRS has been defrauding Americans for many years. The IRS has even sent ALL your Social Security payments to the Federal Reseve Bank. Go check it out for yourself and then you will know FOR SURE that we are telling the TRUTH.

******************************************* THIS IS AN IRS CHECK ENDORSEMENT.

Pay any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for credit U.S. Treas. This is in payment of US. oblig; Must be paid in par N.P. Do not wire none-payment.20-09-0900 Dir.I.R.S. CTR. Kansas City, Missoury. *******************************************

The Federal Reserve Bank IS NOT a Federal bank, but is a private Bank owned by FOREIGN BANKERS who do not pay Income tax! Rothchild, (London), Lazard Bros. (Paris), Israel Seiff, (Italy), Kuhn-Loeb-Warburg,Lehman-Goldman-Sachs-Rockefeller, (New York). In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank has NEVER EVER been audited. Your Phone book PROVES that it is not a Federal Bank. They are listed in the Yellow Pages with all the other "PRIVATE BANKS." They put "Federal" in their name to deceive WE Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank is draining the American economy with the "phony" Income Tax.

AMERICA IS BANKRUPT WITH A $6 TRILLION "PHONY" DEBT.

The Federal Reserve Bank is destroying America! America "WAS" the richest nation on earth, until 1913, when the Federal Reserve Bank was created by foreign Bankers. This was passed in Congress on Christmas "EVE" 1913, when most Congressmen had gone home for Christmas. It was passed by Un-American Congressmen, who had been paid-off and bribed by the wealthy foreign bankers.

Now America is bankrupt with a $6 Trillion phony Federal debt, because EVERY single dollar in circulation has been "BORROWED" from the Federal Reserve Bank. The US Treasury prints our money and then "sells" it to the Federal Reserve Bank for the printing cost. The US Treasury then borrows it back and then we the people pay interest on the "FACE VALUE" of our money to the Federal Reserve Bank with our Income Tax payments to pay for the "PHONY" debt. This is the BIGGEST FRAUD in US history. This is a deliberate and planned bankruptcy to destroy America. Governments are the creators of money, and should not have to borrow it from a foreign private Bank.

Congressman Louis T. Mc Fadden, Chairman House Banking said..."The Federal Reserve Bank CAUSED the Great Depression by DELIBERATELY witholding money out of circulation"...Congressional Record May 23,1933. After 3 attempts on his life, Mc Fadden was poisoned at a banquet! Can you guess who killed him? They steal and plunder from America, but they even kill Americans.

Congress has been lying to you because it is mathematically impossible to pay off the debt or balance the budget with "BORROWED MONEY". President Woodrow Wilson confessed on his deathbed that he committed TREASON against ALL Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank will soon force America into bankruptcy when the interest on the debt has become un-payable. This will cause an economic collapse. This is when our corrupt Government will bring in the "New World Order" and we will be ruled by the United Nations. We will then lose our freedoms and Constitution.

We have already lost our Constitution and Common Law in the US Courts. All US Courts are now under Maritime Military Law with the New World Order, "Gold Fringed US Flag" (Army Regulations 260-10) "displayed" in every US Courtroom with a conviction rate of 97.3%. All US Judges have perjured their Oath to uphold the Constitution and are in CONTEMPT of the Constitution. Just seek the protection of the Constitution and the Judge will tell you to "shut up and sit down". This could NEVER happen in a Common Law Court.

All US Banks also display the Gold Fringed Flag. Many US Police Officers are starting to wear a gold fringed flag patch on their uniforms. Millions of Americans "unknowingly" pledge allegiance to the "Gold Fringed New World Order Flag" at schools, churches and scout meetings.

Our one dollar bill is proof of conspiracy by the Fed. Since 1935 our one dollar bill has had an "Occult" symbol of the all-seeing eye of the Anti-Christ that reads "Annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum". Meaning "Announcing the birth of the New World Order". This is absolute proof of Conspiracy by the Federal Reserve Bank to destroy and enslave Americans.

AMERICANS,IT'S TIME TO GET "MAD AS HELL" AND FIGHT TO GET OUR COUNTRY BACK.

Henry Kissinger said, Nafta and Gatt are the major stepping stones towards the New World Order. Nafta and Gatt caused 28.6% unemployment in Clay County, Tennessee. In 3 years Nafta has cost Americans over 700,000 jobs and more to come! Congress has "SOLD OUT AMERICA.! By the way, what ever happened to the "CONTRACT WITH AMERICA?" How can they forget so easy? That was just a big farce!

America's Founding Fathers formed our Government to SERVE WE THE PEOPLE and to give us "FREEDOM". Our Government has defrauded WE THE PEOPLE and has turned this around and now ALL Americans are ENSLAVED by our Government by working 5 months EVERY YEAR to pay the Phony Income Tax. That should make you "MAD AS HELL. Read on and you'll get even MADDER.

Our Constitution, Section 9 reads......"No direct Tax shall be laid". This has NEVER been repealed. IT IS STILL LAW. This renders the 16th Amendment invalid. You cannot have two opposing statutes in the Constitution. The Income Tax is a Constitutional violation, if enforced by the IRS. Only if the tax is voluntary, can it be Constitutional.

The IRS Code, Title 26 has NEVER been enacted by Congress into POSITIVE LAW. The proof is in the inside cover of all Titles of US Codes at your local Library. Section 7401 of Title 26 claims that the IRS does not have the power to lien, levy or seize property WITHOUT a Court Order. The IRS NEVER uses Court Orders.

"Notice of Levy" or Lien is just that, a notice, THERE IS NO ACTUAL LIEN! The IRS cannot produce that document when you demand to see it.

Americans, you need to challenge the IRS when they try to take your property or bank account away from you without a Court Order. Without a Court Order they DO NOT HAVE JURISDICTION to take ANYTHING.

The IRS has been illegally stealing and plundering from Americans for decades. It is a known fact among IRS Agents that the IRS is responsible for over 500 suicides per month, over half the divorces and 3/4 of the bankruptcies.

THE IRS IS NOT A GOVERNMENT AGENCY.

The proof....IRS Agents cars DO NOT have Government EX-empt License Plates! Most IRS Agents have no clue why. All Government Agencies get "FREE" license plates. Why not the IRS? IRS Agents don't even know why. Most of them have no clue.

Many years ago the Telephone Company "gave" the IRS a Government listing, because of many complaints from people who could not find them in the phone book. The IRS was created through a Puerto Rico Trust and is no more Federal than the Federal Express! As a private Corporation, the IRS is NOT registered to do business in ANY State! Without a Business License, by Law they cannot legally be engaged in business. A "heavy graduated Income Tax" is the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx 1848! Income Tax is the very core of Communism.

The IRS is only a collection Agency for the EVIL Federal Reserve Bank. The US Tax Court is located in Washington, DC. and has NO branches in ANY State! This is because the IRS ONLY has Jurisdiction (Authority) in the District of Columbia. Challenge their Jurisdiction and refuse to pay their $65 filing fee and your case will be DISMISSED. They only have Jurisdiction "IF" you pay the filing fee, because then you have entered into their arena.

Many IRS publications and IRS Agents handbooks claim that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. The word "mandantory" cannot be found in the IRS Code, Title 26. Why do you voluntarily pay Income Tax? Nowhere in the IRS Code can you find a Statute that says that ALL Americans are required to pay Income Tax........NOWHERE!

The US Supreme Court has ruled in Flora vs. USA 362 U.S.145. that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. They ruled that..."Our Tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment, NOT upon distraint" (Force). Tax liability does not appear on the 1040 Form and is not "defined" ANYWHERE in the IRS Code.

Every Statute says, "IF YOU ARE LIABLE" then you have to do this and do that. They also state that, "if you have a Taxable year"....."IF" means that YOU have to determine IF.... So if you determine that you are Liable and that IF you determine that you have a Taxable year, then you can "voluntear to pay Income Tax. If you determine that you are not liable or that you do not have a Taxable year, you are not "REQUIRED" to pay the Tax.

It is "YOU" who determines that you are liable by voluntarily filing a 1040 Form. Americans make themselves liable by filing Income Tax. If you don't file, you're not liable. Off course the IRS will try to "bluff" you into filing by sending you phony enforcement letters, quoting ATF Enforcement Statutes and Regulations.

Before you stop filing, to give you piece of mind, we suggest you place all your assets in a Trust. Your assets should be in a Trust anyway for all kinds of circumstances and protection. If you have no assets, no sweat. Then claim 9 dependents and stop filing and paying Income Tax. Then wisely invest the money saved and then retire in style as a millionaire. Then you will not need Social UN-Security.

The IRS Code, Title 26, only applies to Tax payers and NOT to NON-Tax payers. Always respond to their letters with this statement and tell them they have no Jurisdiction over you. This is called "THE BIGGEST INCOME TAX LOOPHOLE". In fact that this the name of a book by Otto Skinner. $45. P.O.Box 6609, San Pedro, Ca. 90734. This is one of the best books on the Income Tax. Plainly said...."the Income Tax Laws DO NOT apply to you if you do not file a 1040 Return, because you are not a Tax payer". If you are not a Tax payer, you are not liable for the Tax.

YOU WAIVE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BY FILING INCOME TAX.

When you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of "PERJURY", you waive your Fifth Amendment Rights, which state that you CANNOT be compelled to give "POTENTIALLY" incriminating evidence against yourself. This makes the Income Tax Un-Constitutional, because the IRS requires that signature. They get away with this by declaring that the income tax is "voluntary". This is why the IRS Code Statutes say..."If you are liable"... Because if you pay Income Tax, you volunteer to pay. When you volunteer, then you make yourself liable.

The Fourth and Fifth Ammendment of the Bill of Rights give you the right to "refuse" to show your records during an audit. Only if you voluntarily show your records, can the IRS Agent audit them. Americans, STOP VOLUNTEERING anything the IRS asks you to do. They have absolutely No Jurisdiction and Authority over you.

THE IRS CLAIMS THAT OVER 50 MILLION AMERICANS DO NOT FILE INCOME TAX.

In 1991, the IRS reported that there were 163 Million Taxpayers. In a seperate report they claimed they received 111 Million Tax filings for that year. That is 52 Million that do not file Income tax. IRS Commissioner Peggy Richardson claimed in 1991 that one out of five has stopped paying Income Tax and that the Tax revolt is growing. None of them are in jail. Only a handfull is in jail because they yielded to IRS jurisdiction. In fact, you can only go to jail for falsifying Income Tax Returns, when you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of perjury. If you don't file, they DO NOT have jurisdiction. Without Jurisdiction they have no Case.

If they take you to Court,DO NOT HIRE A LAWYER. A Lawyer is an Officer of the Court and he will argue the Case for you because that is how he earns money. REFUSE to enter the Court and stay BEHIND the little fence and challege their Jurisdiction and DO NOT EVER argue the case. Once you argue the case, then you have yielded to their Jusrisdiction.

Become educated and eliminate fear of the IRS. Order the book "Economic Solutions" $8.95. Quality Press. 2888 Bluff Street. Suite 315. Boulder, Colorado. Also order "IRS under Indictment" and learn how to legally stop paying Income Tax. Advantage Publishing 1-916-222-4684.

Devvy Kidd, 12453 West Baltic Ave. Lakewood, Colorado 80228, also has very infomative books. Write her for a brochure!

Senator Henry Belmon in 1969 said....If Tax payers EVER discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff, the entire system will collapse. Before 1940 there was no Income Tax. To finance World War ll, we paid a VICTORY TAX, which was repealed in 1944. Why are Americans still paying this VICTORY TAX? It is because Americans are COMPLACENT and have fear of the IRS, because the IRS has cleverly made Americans think that they are required to pay Tax.

Order Irwin Schiff's book, "The Federal Mafia" $25 from Freedom Books, Post Office Box 5326, Evansville, IN. 47716. This book is also a MUST. Irwin will show you that....No law requires you to file Income Tax returns! No law requires you to pay Income Taxes. No law requires you to keep books for Income Tax purposes. No law authorizes the IRS to audit you. No law authorizes employers to withold Tax from wages. Talk to Irwin about your Tax problem at 1-702-877-2833. Become educated and order his video's and audio cassettes. He can be found on the internet. His Web site is http:/www.ischiff.com If you have a computer, enter patriot, tax fraud, IRS fraud, etc, on your Search Engines and learn more of what we have been telling you in this letter.

PRESIDENT REAGAN CALLED FOR AN INCOME TAX REBELLION.

President Ronald Reagan, May 1983.... "Our Federal Tax system is, in short, utterly impossible, utterly unjust and completely counter productive. It reeks with injustice and is fundamentally UN-American! It has earned a rebellion, and it is time we rebelled.

Eliminate the IRS out of your life, explained on 2 video's,$40. 702-853-2342. IRS Jurisdiction investigated,$25, on video, call 801-377-0570. Weekly Newspaper "The Spotlight" exposes Government fraud. 1-800-522-6292. Their web site is www.spotlight.org

Congress MUST SAVE AMERICA and abolish the "GESTAPO" IRS, Federalize the Federal Reserve Bank, and throw out the foreign bankers from our money system and start printing interest free Constitutional money. (US Notes!) The Constitution only gives Congress the right to create our money and NOT a private bank, run by foreigners.

Income Tax will then no longer be neccesary. Excise Tax, Tariffs and Duties will then pay for Government. When the British Taxed the Colonies, John Adams, John Hancock and other Patriots had the "GUTS" to rebel against their 5% Tax with the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution. Our country became free because of a 5% tax. Without these hero's we would still be paying Tax to the Queen of England. America needs HERO'S like that again to take our wonderful country back from the "BLOOD SUCKING MONEY CHANGERS".

Now Federal Taxes are up to 39.6%. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE. All Americans MUST become Patriots and UNITE to restore Constitutional Government. Massive Civil disobedience is a "proper form" of Petition for Redress of Grievances and Political Protest. This is the ONLY way to wake up Congress. We Americans MUST force Congress to finally END the Income Tax scam. Imagine what your life will be like without Income Tax! You would be living a life of luxury.

AMERICA IS IN GREAT PERIL.

You MUST sacrifice your time and effort to help us inform other Americans. Being complacent will not save America. Americans have been complacent long enough. Send this message to all your local Politicians, friends, neighbors and relatives. Also send to your local Talk Radio's. When 100 million Americans stop filing Income Tax, the IRS will be powerless and Congress will be forced to stop the "phony" Income Tax.

Mark Twain..."In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, only then the timid join him". Our great country needs true Patriots again. Our Government is totally out of control. Our Government was created to serve We The People. Now we Americans have become the slaves and servants of our Government. Americans are not free anymore.

Our Government forces all Americans to obtain a permit or a license to do ANYTHING. Without these Permits and Licenses we would be breaking the Law. WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM IS THAT? Licenses and Permits are used to control us and to steal money from us. Our Government has taken away our basic God given freedoms! Our Government has TOTAL control over Americans.

If you want to be free again, we Americans need to overthrow the MOST corrupt Agency first and that is the IRS.

As retired IRS Agents we learned long ago about IRS and Federal Reserve fraud. Because we love America, we MUST expose the IRS Monster we have worked for. It is YOUR Patriotic DUTY to help us spread this news to ALL AMERICANS. Please copy and mail to others! It's your patriotic duty! UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!

Earl Sorensen & Fred Fuller.



-- ... (...@...com), June 06, 2000.


spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam. Searching the world for wonderful spam spam spam spam.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), June 06, 2000.


Will someone PLEASE give me a clear definition of what a "meme" is?

Thank you.

-- Spindoc' (spindoc_99_2000@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.


Spindoc, A meme has been presented here as an idea or notion that is followed religiously by a group to the point where it takes on a self perpetuating "life of it's own", even when it has no basis in fact.

Attempts to reveal the truth about such are often met with hostility.

When you have been trained to submit "and get with the program", and in some cases act as self appointed police to protect the status quo, such training is hard to shake.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 07, 2000.


No flames then, just facts . .

My comments . . .

1) The concept of taxation exists so that a democratically elected government may raise funds which it then distributes in the service of the populace which elected it. If you dont pay, you're freeloading. Thats simply a general principle.

2) If you dont pay your taxes, you WILL be prosecuted. This happens to people all the time. Thats a fact. Then you'd be jailed.

3) Whatever you feel about the legality of the matter, you wouldn't be the first to be thrown in jail for what you believe to be unjust reasons.

4) You'd still be in jail.

5) For a long time.

6) You'd really be better off paying up and shutting up, because that way you can still go drink a beer, or play ball, or walk in the park, or whatever you want to do.

In any case, I'm interested to know whether you feel strongly enough about this injustice to make the ultimate sacrifice, and make a stand. Its a case I'd follow with interest. Also, do you have any documented evidence of people having ever got away with this by persuading the existing legislature and judiciary to uphold the claim ?

Waiting with baited breath

W

-- w0lv3r1n3 (w0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), June 07, 2000.


Why Heavens, KoFE -- you mean my Senators are all unconstitutional? After all, Article 3, Section 1 provides they shall be appointed by the states. Now, of course, Amendment 17 provides for direct election of senators, BUT NEVER DIRECTLY REPEALS ARTICLE 3, SECTION 1. So, what does this mean -- obviously, since the current election of senators is unconstitutional, and all laws are passed by the senate, NOT ONLY IS THE IRS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT SO IS EVERY OTHER LAW PASSED SINCE 1913 (the 16th Amendment (income tax) and 17th Amendment (direct election of senators) were passed the same year.

Thank you for pointing this out to me; now I can violate the law without fear of prosecution.

Or, as our own Al-d would say -- TAX NUT ALERT==[very weird people] +just want you,r money!!!or-are very stupid'gullible'or both.

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 07, 2000.


Besides, I believe what the Supreme Court actually said in Stanton v. Baltic Mining was:

The contention is that as the tax here imposed is not on the net product but in a sense somewhat equivalent to a tax on the gross product of the working of the mine by the corporation, therefore the tax is not within the purview of the Sixteenth Amendment and consequently it must be treated as a direct tax on property because of its ownership and as such void for want of apportionment. But aside from the obvious error of the proposition intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the Sixteenth Amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived, that is by testing the tax not by what it was -- a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed. Mark, of course, in saying this we are not here considering a tax not within the provisions of the Sixteenth Amendment, that is, one in which the regulation of apportionment or the rule of uniformity is wholly negligible because the tax is one entirely beyond the scope of the taxing power of Congress and where consequently no authority to impose a burden either direct or indirect exists. In other words, we are here dealing solely with the restriction imposed by the Sixteenth Amendment on the right to resort to the source whence an income is derived in a case where there is power to tax for the purpose of taking the income tax out of the class of indirect to which it generically belongs and putting it in the class of direct to which it would not otherwise belong in order to subject it to the regulation of apportionment

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 07, 2000.



Wov, 1-6 no facts, but opinions and accepted beliefs. But I wouldn't argue with most of what you say.

What I'm trying to do is decide by examining the real law, and code, to determine what I suspect is a fraud. I'm not trying to convert anybody. What you do with the truth is your business. But I think only the truth will do, when innocent people are made criminally liable to submit their money and/or their property under threat of being strong armed and held hostage.

And Porter, posting insults and then debate is kinda inconsistent. Did I hit a nerve? Your post, I have to guess is a ruling? or did YOU write it? Anyway, it's long winded, but not to complicated, so I'm gonna look at it again, because I want to understand it.

Calling people nuts, snakes, freeloaders, doesn't really make a case. Obviously, you haven't completely examned the issue, because you would have said so, and offered a more educated opinion.

There's no shame in not knowing though, even if you are a lawyer. I know other lawyers who didn't know either.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 07, 2000.


KoFE -- That's the point. It's not a debate. Under our constitutional system, the Courts decide what the law is. The Courts have decided that the current income tax system is enforceable, and put people in jail for violating it. So, anyone who is out there trying to figure out what the law "really" is, is nuts. These things were settled years ago. Obviously, the losing side would tend to disagree with the Court's ruling on the matter. But, rule they did. And, Tax Nuts who ignore those rulings are just that -- Tax Nuts.

And, that long quote -- it was just to help you out. Your original post cited "Does the Constitution contradict itself? The answer came from The Supreme Court in Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 US 112 (1916)." I just thought that, as a student of the Constitution, you'd appreciate my posting the ENTIRE quotation. Glad to be of assistance in this regard.

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 07, 2000.


E.H.,

And for the third or fourth time, I'll quietly slip in here and post a link to Daniel B. Evans' Tax Protestors FAQ, which discusses that case (and others) in even greater detail.

:)

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), June 08, 2000.


So, if I'm reading that website correctly, the court can decide to enact criminal proceedings against citizens for "supposed" civil disobedience, w/o issueing clear orders from the beginning, other than "everybody knows."

I'd like to get an honest answer on this question, please. What do you think would happen if you were to call the IRS, and ask them to send you a copy of the LAW(since, the law would be used against you in a "criminal" proceeding) that shows your liability.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 08, 2000.


I wonder what Willie Nelson, Leona Hemsley and the like think about not paying taxes these days.......

My guess would be that it is definitely a crime and you will go to jail if you do not pay your taxes.

Quite a small price to pay to live in the greatest, most free country on the planet. It don't bother me a bit..... But I don't wanna see'em go up any more either.....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 08, 2000.



KoFE -- see why this is not a debate. People post this information; you can find it on the link Mr. Poole just posted above. What would the IRS do if you asked them to send you a copy of the relevant law -- probably tell you to get your own damned lawyer; they're not in the business of providing legal advice, particularly with regard to very stupid questions which have been asked by tax protestors for years, and answered numerous times. But, assuming the IRS did answer, they's probably give you something like what the FAQ Poole posted contains:

"Section 1 of the Code imposes an income tax on the income of every individual who is a citizen or resident of the United States ...." Treas. Reg. ' 1.1- 1(a)(1).

United States v. Moore, 692 F.2d 95 (10th Cir. 1979); United States v. Slater, 545 F.Supp. 179 (Del. 1982).

"The payment of income taxes is not optional ... and the average citizen knows that payment of income taxes is legally required." Schiff v. United States, 919 F.2d 830, 834 (2nd Cir. 1990). The following arguments are "completely lacking in legal merit and patently frivolous: (1) individuals are not persons 'persons' subject to taxation under the Internal Revenue Code; (2) the United States' authority is confined to the District of Columbia; ... (5) wages are not income ...." Lonsdale v. United States, 919 F.2d 1440, 1448 (10th Cir. 1990). The statutes themselves require the payment of the tax and the filing of a return. 26 U.S.C. ' 6012. ... [The] duty to pay those taxes is manifest on the face of the statutes, without any resort to IRS rules, forms or regulations." United States v. Bowers, 920 F.2d 220, 222 (4th Cir. 1990). "Upon review of May's amended peition, we find no allegations of fact which could give rise to a valid claim; rather, the complaint merely contains conclusory assertions attacking the constitutionality of the Internal Revenue Code and its application to the taxpayer.[Footnote omitted.] Tax protest cases like this one raise no genuine controversy; the underlying legal issues have long been settled. See, e.g., Abrams, 82 T.C. at 406-07 (citing cases rejecting similar arguments). Because May's petition raised no justiciable claims, the Tax Court properly dismissed the petition for failure to state a claim." May v. C.I.R., 752 F.2d 1301, 1302 (8th Cir. 1985), (among other things, May's amended complaint alleged that "The Respondent has added penalties for Petitioner not filing a return (1040) when in fact there is NO SECTION of the Internal Revenue Code that 'REQUIRES' anyone to file." 752 F.2d at 1304, note 3). An attorney named Thomas J. Carley argued before the United States Circuit Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit that "[n]owhere in any of the Statutes of the United States is there any section of law making any individual liable to pay a tax or excise on 'taxable income.'" The Second Circuit responded that "Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 (26 U.S.C.) (hereinafter the Code) provides in plain, clear and precise language that '[t]here is hereby imposed the taxable income of every individual ... a tax determined in accordance with' tables set-out later in the statute. ... Despite the appellant's attempted contorted construction of the statutory scheme, we find that it coherently and forthrightly imposed upon the appellant tax upon his income for the year 1980." Ficalora v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 751 F.2d 85, 88 (2d Cir. 1984), cert. den. 105 S.Ct. 1869 (1985).

Oddly enough, the same attorney raised nearly the identical argument before the Eighth Circuit, arguing that there was "no law imposing an income tax" on his clients. The Eighth Circuit held that the appeal was "frivolous" and imposed a penalty on the appellants of double the Commissioner's costs of the appeal. Lively v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 705 F.2d 1017, 1018 (8th Cir. 1983).

Even more incredibly, only a year after losing the Lively appeal, and six month after losing the Ficalora appeal, the same attorney, Thomas J. Carley, raises the same idiot issue with the 10th Circuit, questioning "Whether there is any law or statute imposing an income tax on appellants for the year 1977 and, if such a law or statute is claimed to exist, what is the precise citation of such law or statute?" The 10th Circuit quoted from both the Ficalora and Lively opinions, and then spent the rest of the opinion explaining why it was going to impose sanctions on Mr. Carley personally (not his clients). "It is obvious that despite having full knowledge of the learned opinions of two different Article III courts and the accurate reasoning of the Tax Court in Manley [v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 46 T.C. M. 1359 (1983), another case lost by Mr. Carley)] concerning his arguments, Carley has failed to learn that he has no right to occupy the time of such courts with frivolous, unreasonable and vexatious proceedings, and that if he does so, he exposes not only his clients but also himself personally to sanctions." Charczuk v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue, 771 F.2d 471, 474 (10th Cir. 1985). The court also referred to Mr. Carley's arguments as "meritless," "preposterous," "nearly silly," and "that thoroughly defy common sense."



-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 08, 2000.


And still no law cited, only descisions; but I think you made an honest attempt that time, Porter.

As for Pooles FAQ website, I think the aim of it is too imply that it's futile to resist, basically the same as quoting court case descisions.

I'm aware that people are abused by the IRS, and the courts everyday. There is corruption not only in the private sector, but in government as well. These judges are not gods, they're people too, and they are under pressure to perform just like everybody else. I've seen what goes on in there, and it's corrupt. I think it's pretty clear what the Constitution says about taxing people. It said no. If there is an interpretation that the 16th says yes, then we don't have a valid Constitution. Actually, we don't have a valid goverment because were not supposed to have paper money, according to the Constitution.(but that's another day)

What we have, is uninformed bureacrats passing on their opnions as law, and the population just does the okey-doke.

Just because a judge rules someones claim is frivolous, does not make it so, and back to my example of civil rights and particularly the Rosa Parks case; She was arrested, jailed and found guilty. But she wasn't wrong to stand up for her rights. She was railroaded by a corrupt judge, prosecutor, jury, police, whathave you. What was the judge supposed to say; Rosa Parks, I think you're right? But even after winning through the Supreme Court, she received death threats, and felt compelled to move to Detroit.

So, my point is that the same elements of corruption exist in this tax fraud also. We have ignorant and/or corrupt officials violating the public trust, and a public ruled by ignorance, bluff, fear, and intimidation.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 08, 2000.


KoFE -- yep, you are a tax nut all right. My definition of "tax nut": those that argue about what the law should be, rather than what it is. Plus, it seems that you are spouting tax protester BS, rather than reading Title 26 and the cases decided under it.

So, nothing anyone can say will change your mind. I take that as a given.

So, why do I bother to respond? I guess the answer is that I am interested in what sort of nut case would hold these beliefs. I've enjoyed our conversations. You are reasonably polite. You don't engage in the weird punctuation and upper caps stuff that the more extreme tax nut cases do. And, I've never communicated before with someone who seems otherwise rational, but believes things like the fact that there is no requirement to pay income tax, or that income tax was created in the 1940's. I find this interesting.

But, I do think you're slinging BS to me and everyone else on this issue. There is nothing in your posts that suggests that you've mae a real attempt to read or understand tax law. You seem to just repeat what you read on some tax protest web site. When I gave you the FULL quotation from a Supreme Court case you cited, you didn't even recognize it.

So, good luck -- the bottom line definition of what the law is, is not what the law SHOULD be, but what they will put you in jail for doing (or not doing).

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 08, 2000.


What's happening here is that *everyone* is out of step except KoFE, and that's because the drummer is corrupt and nobody else realizes it! We just can't seem to understand that the law means what KoFE *wants* it to mean, rather than what everyone else agrees it clearly says.

In a chat room one night, I learned that Paul Milne has drilled tax protester nonsense into his poor home-schooled son until his son can recite it in his sleep. But while the poor boy has no legal grounding and no idea what he's talking about, there's a good chance he will spend his entire life accepting at as an article of Faith. Sad, really.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 08, 2000.


I'm still reading that court descision that you posted in its entirety, and I'm not seeing anything inconsistent with what I've been saying. (Although, I'll keep looking.)

Flint, submitting out of fear and ignorance is not something to be proud of....

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 08, 2000.


Porter, I re-read your last post. And You are mistaken when you say my mind can't be changed. But only the truth will do. And the Constitution, Supreme Court, and the tax code have to jive to be reasonable. Otherwise, it's a fraud. And we're being ruled by BS.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), June 08, 2000.

KoFE -- I've been practicing law for 20 years now, and I can tell you one thing. If all parts of the law have to "jive," to not be considered "fraudulent" then the law is all a fraud, not just tax law. Little of it "jives"; portions of it were written at different times, by different people, many of them with different motives, and many of them not the brightest bulbs in the legal/political chandelier.

This is why we have a court system -- to sort out the type of issues that tax protesters like to raise. Like, does the phrase "there is imposed a tax . . ." mean that paying taxes is manditory. Someone has to decide such issues, and the Constitution says that the Courts do it. And, once they've done it -- it IS the law, whether you agree with it or not, and whether you like it or not.

And that's what separates the Tax Nuts from those with legitimate concerns about the tax system. The legitimate critics understand what the law IS and attempt to change it.

The Tax Nuts, on the other hand, won't accept, for one reason or the other, what the law IS, instead deciding that the law is legitimate only if they are convinced it is.

And, one final question -- obviously, the 16th Amendment gives Congress the power to tax income. Do you really think that Congress INTENDED that taxation be voluntary? And, don't you think that if they thought it was voluntary, they'd MAKE if manditory in about a minute?

-- E.H. Porter (Just Wondering@About.it), June 09, 2000.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ