Have More/ Want More

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I was thinking about the "Have-More Plan" the other day, and I was thinking that most people are on the "Want-More Plan"...that is what modern consumptive life is all about. But 'want' has two meanings: to desire, but also: to lack. The more you desire, the more you lack. Funny how that works.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), June 06, 2000

Answers

Very good point, Snoozy. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Snoozy, just wondering if you have too much stuff. I'm far from a pack rat, but I still have more that I like(except books). About 5 moves ago, we had just enough stuff to fit in a smaller u-haul trailer, now we'd need a good sized moving van-not counting wood, chickens and other homestead misc. Most of what we have, we want and have use for. We have been cleaning out and getting rid of stuff the last few weeks. Having lost nearly everything I owned more than once, I don't get too attached-very few things have sentimental value. For some, having things is an addiction as bad as any addiction, they have to have "it" or they have to have the "best". Their self-esteem depends on it. I use to clean houses for a living. You'd be surprised what people have. One house had 6 bathrooms, another three living room sets, and most of these houses only had 4 people living in them. I admire people who could have a lot of "stuff" but don't, simply because they don't want it. An interesting note-a few years ago I fruit-fasted every Tuesday, on Wednesdays I almost always had over-whelming desires to get rid of stuff. The more stuff you have, the more you have to take care of it.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), June 06, 2000.

I finally have to say goodbye to my daypack...I got it for Christmas in 1969 and since it's canvas, well....you can imagine how many holes it has in it! When I went hitchhiking through Europe in 1970, this little rucksack (not even backpack sized) was ALL I took with me for a couple of months. Now I don't think I could fit what I *think* I need for a weekend into it! Sad to say goodbye to my old "friend" but it has given me pause for thinking about my other possessions this week. Good point, Snoozy...what you own, so owns you, I also say.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 06, 2000.

Remember George Carlin, and his great 'performance', about stuff? I don't need stuff. I have what I want/need. 3 wonderful, healthy teenagers who have -so far- managed to stay out of trouble, a man who loves me, a dog, (who probably loves me more), a roof over my head and all that goes with it. I work full time, travel alittle and still manage to save a few dollars because I don't mind driving a 10 yr old car, or living in a 80yr old house. No stress attacts going on here! Count those blessings!

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), June 06, 2000.

Nice point snoozy. When my family lived in England I really understood how excessive American lifestyles are. Even clothes dressers over there are much small because people do not have as much. They aren't living in poverty, they just don't "need" as much! I found that having fewer things is a very liberating feeling. It certainly has helped prepare us for homesteading. Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), June 06, 2000.


When we went to Korea (I know, here I go about Korea again!), we were only allowed to take minimal possessions, because the Korean houses were so much smaller. We thought long and hard about what we "needed", and thought we were really being hurt. When our possessions were being delivered, a crowd came out of nowhere, and watched them being unloaded. One old woman came inside, spoke no English, just bowed, and walked around the place, touching things, then bowed to me again and left. After being there a while, and seeing the inside of their homes, I realized how excessive the "few" things we brought must have seemed to them. I really grew to admire them for there family-oriented society, and how they were "rich" with much less than what we thought were the bare necessities. Jan

-- Jan in Colorado (Janice12@aol.com), June 06, 2000.

As I look back over my life (yeah, yeah - I know I'm only in my forties), it amuses me to note that the times when I was the happiest and most fulfilled were the times when I didn't have much. It also amuses me to think of the "things" that I thought I "needed" to be happy .... and to wonder which one of those boxes out in the shed they are packed in!

I have lots of "things", material things, now. I reckon I could be considered a success professionally, financially, etc... but it's more important to me to be able to be someone that others can count on, to be kind and generous and help others. I have noticed that the more I give of myself to others, the more I get in return. Hubby doesn't quite get the idea. The religious folk here would probably say that it's a matter of casting your bread upon the waters, or perhaps mispah (sp) if I have the idea right about what that is - giving with no thought of return (?). All I can say is that it makes me feel good about myself - and that makes me happy.

Don't get me wrong - I most assuredly have more wants. Most of all, I want my daughter to be happy and healthy and self-fullfilled. I want to rock my grandbabies and teach them how wonderful life on the farm can be. I want to build another house - with all the bells and whistles. Except the bells and whistles have been turned into a much smaller home with a grey-water system, a cistern for water, solar panels for electricity and heat, designed to make the most of natural sunlight and shade.....

I also want to make that list of birds, and keep a journal for more than a month or two and build birdhouses and plant a butterfly garden and eat lots of fresh green beans and lie on my back in the sun and watch the clouds go by - because those are the things that I remember from the times that I was happiest. Don't "want" much, do I?!!

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), June 06, 2000.


I've been making mental and paper lists of what we need to keep if we manage to sell here, and start over somewhere else, and it ocurred to me that our pioneer ancestors often went into the wilderness to build their new homes with what they could carry on a couple of pack horses, or in a covered wagon -- and if you haven't seen one of those wagons, they really don't hold all that much. It isn't socially acceptable to do that anymore in most places (in this country, at least). It's okay for a young person or a young couple starting out to have a bare apartment -- that's kind of expected -- but I know that most places just wouldn't be able to swallow a couple our age camping out and building from scratch with just what's on the property -- just isn't done anymore. I don't have a very big wardrobe, but if I wore the same dress for church every week, as some of our ancestresses likely did, people would start offering me clothes, thinking we were so poor that I couldn't afford to buy another dress! So social expectations do play a part in what we possess. Also husbands who accumulate things, but can't seem to let go of them!! (He is slowly getting better -- after twenty-four years of living with me!)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 06, 2000.

I've been thinking about this a while; I am at the point that I hate to go to the mall. It just shows me more STUFF that makes me want it, when all I marched into the place for was a pair of shoes! Somewhere there has to be a balance! I am really bad about collecting books or material or wool to spin, or kitchen gadgets, and too many canning jars (this according to my hubby...)!

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Polly,

The Biblical, cast your bread upon the waters and it will come back to you, is an analogy to an agricultural practice. In the muddy river edges of the Nile and other estuaries a type of lily pad grows. It will cover acres of water from several feet deep. The seed from the hard fruits produced by this plant were collected and ground into a flour to make a type of flat bread. Now, a farmer would take either the fruit or some of the seed, make a mud ball around it and throw this out into an area where the plants weren't established. The mud ball with seeds would sink to the bottom, seeds would sprout and eventually, after some years, the farmer would have a new field. From which he could get more seed and have more bread.

-- Charles (clb@watervalley.net), June 06, 2000.



Before we got our strawbale house built -- well, up anyway...who knows when we'll get it done -- I lived in a shipping container for 7 months here with a couple of windows & a big skylight, but no heat, no electricity, no running water, the outhouse was up the path in the forest; I'd shower at the state park or at a friend's when I went to work. It was a blast! Truly it was one of the best times of my life. Now we live in the house which is still raw straw on the inside, and we have electricity from the temp pole, a woodstove, hot water heater & a SHOWER! Toilet and propane stove. A fridge even. We still don't have a kitchen sink yet...Lots of my stuff is in boxes still (2years) but mostly that's books. But I'm not really talking about 'stuff' itself. To me, the "Have-More Plan" is a state of mind, a sense of sufficiency, of enough. The Want-more Plan is a mental black hole of desire and emptiness, a blueprint of dissatisfaction. It doesn't matter how much you have or don't have, if you have that enduring sense of 'enough'.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), June 07, 2000.

Well said! It's sort of funny, because my Dad and I were observing that so much of what people 'need', they have created the need for. Maybe that's a little confusing, but take for example: cars. Before the automobile was invented, the was no real need for it. Farmers worked at home and a horse and wagon was great for any trip to town they took. Those who worked in town also lived in town, but isn't it funny that as the automobile was invented and improved that the 'need' for better transportation suddenly arose? Certainly, I think that in many cases it is necessary for people to have quick transportation, but only because over the years we have created that necessity. So long!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), June 07, 2000.

Leann There is no such thing as to many canning jars!!Unless you don't use 'em! In which case, send them to me! Anyway, the other things are useful. As long as you aren't spending a fortune on them or going way out of your way to get them.

Since my husband and I were married 11 years ago, we have almost never made $20,000 a year! We spent some time apart,happened to get decent jobs, were seeing other people, going places, having things, fancy cars, blah blah, blah.......Anyway, together we were making almost twice as much as we ever had and our regular bills weren't very much higher but into debt we went for the first time ever! And we were miserable! We had never felt so empty or unfulfilled! Or maybe we were miserable so we spent? Either way when we found our way back to each other we also found ourselves working our butts off to get back in shape!

I agree that some things you just must do to fit in. My kids can't were the same clothes to school 2or3 times in a row, even if they changed them right away each afternoon,teachers would either think we were near poverty or just plain bad parents and we'd probably have CPS at our door! Some stuff I do anyway! They thought we were nuts when we bought this place but they didn't admit it till a year later when we had a LOT done and had a housewarming party! I just don't let them see enoughh weirdness to ostericize me completely! LOL!

-- Novina West in ND (lamb@stellarnet.com), June 07, 2000.


Snoozy, your home sounds interesting.

My children agree that we are rich (in life) when we have all the things that we NEED, and it is human nature to be striving for all that we WANT. Everyone's definitions of "want" are different, but "need" seems simple enough. Like any other creature, humans need food, clean water, shelter, stimulating activities.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), June 07, 2000.


I think the hardest part of living frugally is the attitude of others. Right now, we are doing without a second car, which means the kids & I are home during the days without transportation. (Well, we do have our bicycles!) We are recieving SO much "helpful" advice - people think it's so awful! Like we lack things to do at home! We are perfectly happy, and getting lot's of those things on our "to do" lists done.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), June 07, 2000.


This post is to Jean- be happy that you only have one vehicle! You manage, right?! My friend is a law enforcement officer and his studies prove that more children are KILLED in cars these days, because more children are IN cars! My mother didn't HAVE a car when we were kids! Okay, I'm talking 35 yrs ago, Mom's stayed home-here I go asking for it, as they should! My sister told me last week, how her and my niece were in the car for 8 hrs., and they never left town, that's disgusting! Home is were I go, I like it best. You should, too.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), June 07, 2000.

Wow! There are so many comments worthwhile in this thread! I do agree with the social expectations aspect of it. Not that I feel I have to bow to what others think, but sometimes there is no getting around it if you want any peace. I agree that we have created the need for things that we don't really need. In the past two years I have drastically reduced what I bring into the house, trying to live by the rule that if you bring something in, something has to go out! We are still unloading our garage full of discards! How did we ever get so much stuff and where did we ever live when it was all in this house? Life is much simpler now. I love it. I still have bouts of "gee, it's nice to get something new",but I'm conquering that as well. I recently had a lot of company and found myself at Walmart several times in the past two weeks. I told my husband after everyone left that I was so glad, now I wouldn't have to go to the store for a while. The spending was absolutely killing me! If you don't stay on your toes you get sucked into the big consumer machine! I find avoidance and a strict purchase list the only way to conquer! When we first started on this quest for a simpler life I posted a big sign on the fridge that said, "WANT OR NEED?" It helped remind me of our goals. Great thread! Jennifer

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), June 08, 2000.

How can I use this thread, in a discussion with all my children both married and still at home, to help them understand consumerism and all it's pitfalls? I have a married child that is constantly having finacial difficulties because of spending. I want my sons, who are still at home, not to fall into this trap. The seventeen year old never spends until it's absolutly neccessary. His older brother is broke the day after payday. I want my children to the masters of their fate not the slaves of their creditors? Does anyone have any ideas?

-- Cheryl Cox (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000.

Gee whiz, Kathy Catfish, my mother didn't stay at home and that was 35 years ago, and I am the better for it, not the worse. I wonder what kind of sullen, unhappy person I would have been patterned into if I had watched my mother squelch her intellectual soul to fit other people's ideas of how she should be. If staying at home fit her soul at that time, I would probably have turned out much the same as I am now anyway. I know very few people who were raised by the same two people they were born to, and I know some very fine people. oh,Why do I rise to the bait?! Why can't I just ignore such statements?...

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), June 09, 2000.

Don't sweat taking the bait, snoozy. We are all children of our environment - whatever that environment is.

I too, was raised by a working Mom; and babysat by my Aunt, who was a stay at home Mom. I am an only child, my Aunt has 4 children, one a year older than me. We lived in the country, Auntie lived in town. I had the very best of both worlds! Auntie would go to the "big" town every Friday for groceries and drop my cousin and I off at the library (Mom paid for both cards). We would turn in our books and run uptown to Kresge's, then to Woolworths to spend our 25 cent allowance (also courtesy of Mom). Then back to the library, to take out the maximum of 7 books each - never the same ones, because that way we could swap half way through the week when we had each read ours. When school was in and we could use the library there, we would save our allowance and go uptown after school - ice cream cones, candy bars for a nickle apiece - and OH! the penny candy. Then on home at night, and on weekends - often with a cousin or two in tow. To camp out under blankets draped over the clothesline, chase frogs in the pond, wade in the creek or build snow forts (Mom would let us put food coloring and water in spray bottles to color our forts different colors).

I work three days a week, 12 hours a day. Again, I have the best of both worlds. As does my daughter. With a Dad, Step-Dad, Grandpa and Mom - there's always someone around - and no one gets "stuck" doing all the parenting.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), June 09, 2000.


Very interesting discussion! Several families went camping with us last weekend, and this point came up very quickly:While enjoying our minimalistic time together with all we really needed, why was it that even our childrens UNDERWEAR had to have a Disney character on it, etc. One book I've always enjoyed since having a family is "more with Less" by Doris Longacre, and I will remit some suggestions mentioned in the book for the lady with the kids at home: If you see something you absolutley must buy, try this: either wait on it for one week, at which point you may decide it's not a "NEED" or if the deal is too good to last, and it's something you DO in fact need, CALL THE STORE, have it sent up front, walk in, pay for it, and LEAVE. Most of our costly wasted purchases have been from the "just looking around" type shopping, not the thoughtful cost comparison type thing we might do otherwise. This seemed to come to me out of necessity- I just could not drag th kids around the store if we were to get all of our errands done in town, but for my friends in town, this approach never dawned on them, and they said it has been helpful. Also, one person said they enjoyed getting catalogs, and hve the kids point out as a game how much stuff in the "wish books" was senseless, pointless, wasteful or not necessary. It was a challenge to truly find the USEFUL stuff. By the way, we are still broke, but now just 75% of the time instead of 100%Michelle

-- Michelle Maggiore (mmaggior@mindspring.com), June 09, 2000.

oh, pay attention! My POINT was, that kids are in the CAR TOO MUCH

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), June 10, 2000.

Wow! What a discussion!

I have lost EVERYTHING three times in my life....I mean PHYSICAL things, not the important things!!!

Feb. 28, 1983, the night they aired the final episode of MASH on TV, we missed the show because we'd spent the afternoon watching our dream home burn. My office has always been at home. Nathan was alseep in his play pen. When the smoke detectors went off, I called the fire department, got Nathan out of the play pen, and walked out leaving everything else. Our daughters, then ages 10 and 8, came home on the school bus to find their house burning (this was before we started homeschooling) Husband got home from work just as the fire departments were leaving....

We all had only the clothes we had on and Nathan and I had on only our socks and no shoes!

But we came back from that.....I had saved what was important, my two year old.

Then in 1995, several bad situations arose and for a time I was with a maniac who one day decided to burn all my books, clothes, jewelry, paperwork, briefcase, medications, everything!

When I eventually got back to Alabama I had the clothes I had on, a couple of pairs of bluejeans I'd gotten at a domestic violence shelter, and the car I was driving. that was it. no where to sleep. no job. nothing.

I wound up back with my original husband on our original land and we've been together a total of 22 years now (not counting that little interlude) but I say all this to remind everybody, all the things we can buy or charge for or aquire are not what's important....it's WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE STAND FOR, AND OUR FAMILIES THAT'S IMPORANT! (I also walked right back into the two newspaper jobs I'd held as a reporter since 1980!)

Right now our house is stuffed with books, newspapers, and magazines, since I am a writer. I always remember what some of the other women told me as I drove back across the country by myself, and stayed at different domestic violence shelters every night until I got back here....they told me that I had an education so I could be a voice for them, that nobody, an abusive spouse, a fire, nothing else, could take my education and what I believed in and what I stood for, away from me!!! AND NOBODY CAN'T!!!!!

Life is good! not the amount of money you make or the number of cars you have. money doesn't buy happiness. things don't make you happy. I have almost lost this homeplace in a bankruptcy too after a failed business in 1992 which we struggled out of....and still we have this land....

Do you think I value this land more than 20 years ago! You bet! But if it were taken away from me tomorrow, I could still go on....think of what's important in your life...right now I'm surrounded with my home office, my precious cat, all my animals outside, my big flourishing garden, my 19 year old son still at home, and my husband to be home from his new business (started just this week so he can spend more time on the homestead!) any minute....life is good....but life will have it's rough spots again....but survival is based on what's inside you....God gives me strength even tho I no longer attend a formal "church" any more....You have to look inside yourself and find what's important...it's not in the bank, or on a car lot, or even in a jewelry store....

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.


I know a man who doesn't fix anything yet he has 52 pair of needle nose pliers on paper towels in a $600.00 tool box. I think that speaks volumes about our society.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.

Wow! Suzy. What a story! I commend you. I have never been through any thing like that, but I have come to the same conclusion about what is important. I spent my 20's trying to find out who i was and what was important and tried over and over again being different people instead of being myself like that wasn't ok. I've gotten married since then had 4kids and in the process learned to sacrifice and do for others like never befeore and I wouldn't have it any other way. It is the relationships with others and a healthy self esteem which are important. I wish I could have learned this sooner. One of the reasons I like this forum so much is because I can not only learn the practical things but I can glean alot of wisdom all of the life experience that I read about. Thanks!

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 11, 2000.

My wife and I just finished disposing of my father-in-law's estate. He was a frugal man who never wasted anything. He left a massive amount of stuff which I, an avid scrounger, would declare as valuable "stuff". Much of it was of both practical and sentimental value. We could "save" only the most sentimental items. The vast majority of it went for pennies at auction. Moral of the story: Get rid of it at top dollar while you can. I am now making $100 - $150 per week selling off my antique radio collection, my old model airplane engines and excess library books. Take warning folks, it only weighs you down and you can't take it with you. Make sure that the check you write to the funeral director is going to bounce.

-- John and Pat James (jjames@n-jcenter.com), June 12, 2000.

Hey that reminds me...I have an old Philco Radio (with phonograph) that I need to sell. Anyone have any ideas how I can find out it's value? If you tell me Ebay, I will need some instructions. Thanks...this will help me "unload" some!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 12, 2000.

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