Freedom Underground`

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Hi guys, I am writing an article for a magazine with the above title. I was hoping you guys could help me out and answer a few questions for me. 1)Why are freedom issues on your mind, so much that you are writing about them on a farming forum? 2)Do you feel the internet gives you the opportunity to express yourself about freedom issues in ways that were never possible before? Why? 3) do you feel that before the internet you would have ever been likely to put your feelings on freedom in print? If you had one thing to say to the world regarding freedom what would it be? Have you ever been interveiwed by the traditional media regarding your feelings on freedom?

Thanks so much everyone ahead of time. I won't use anyone's names without permission.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 01, 2000

Answers

we are homesteaders, what made you think this was a farming forum?

-- Grant Eversoll (thegrange@earthlink.net), June 01, 2000.

Gee, I am sorry. Why are freedom issues are on your mind so much that you choose to write about them on a homesteading forum? I just think that you all have so much to say that could help me as I try to show how the internet is being used to bring real people's ideas on freedom to the forefront of America. I want to show how the national media for years has been ignoring the common man's opinion. There are so many people on the internet shouting about government intrusion. I just want to know if they always had an outlet or if they never had one and are finally being heard.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 01, 2000.


This could take awhile!

1) As answered above, Homesteading. Which to me means self-reliance. Which to me means freedom or more appropriatly, non-ingratiation to the system and it's foibles. Also, the reason that freedom issues are so much on my mind is because nearly all of our rights are being annihilated by people in the name of "safety" and life just ain't safe! I value my freedom and the freedom of the next generation more than I value an air-conditioned office and an easy chair recliner.

2)The internet is the perfect thing for a microwave society. It is also, like firearms, the great equalizer. Everyone has equal power her and it is only dependent upon the individuals ability to express his ideas.

3)With the political climate we have....YES! YES! YES! If I had one thing in the world I could say to the world about freedom it would be that it requires constant vigilance, if you fail to know your rights, and fight to keep them unencumbered, you are guaranteed to lose them. This is why we must continue to talk about "politics" here, because we can't just ignore the rest of the world and it's movements even tough we try to remove ourselves from it to a degree. We can't stick our heads in the sand....the rest of our body is exposed if we do that!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 01, 2000.


This is no different than a bathroom wall, really. I don't think of this as "farming" or "rights" oriented. I only respond to those issues that concern me.

In other words, I don't think you'll get a true response!!

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), June 01, 2000.


#1 issue in my mind---DISEMPOWER MONEY IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS!!! Yes, I'm yelling because its all about money because money buys power. Disempower the almighty $$$ and the peoples voice will more likely be heard.

I agree. The internet is the new "equalizer". Folks like us who share the common bond of homesteading can gather round the glowing CRT and share ideas, advice, commiserate, bicker and bitch and gradually come to realize we're all in this together. The community of humanity.

Homesteading to me is a "real" way of life, somehow seperate from the manmade artifices of high finance, slick talk, legal and financial mumbo jumbo etc. Simplicity is difficult to achieve in the "real" world of homesteading and nearly impossible in the artificial world made by humanity.

Homesteading= self reliance, Self reliance=freedom

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 02, 2000.



According to the FAQ's on the main Countryside webpage this is a farming and small stock/homestead magazine. It includes farmers, goat and sheepherders, people of religious difference. It describes homesteaders as "a state of mind" rather than a place. No one here is "right" and no one here is "wrong" ! I followed this forum from it's beginnings and didn't say much the first several months. I guess I am the entity that started the "anti-political" threads. I felt some of the greatest minds had buried their heads in the sand to avoid the hassle of the government. I needed them to come back and tell me why. So, I used the internet and this forum to educate myself on the feelings of others. You have to admit that we have covered a lot of issue's since "The Founding Fathers" ? We have waved a lot of flags,called a few names and embraced some real issues. I think the internet does allow me more freedom than I have in life. Although I have been interviewed by the media--it was from my years with Habitat for Humanity. I got to speak to Congress on issues relating to "affordable housing". Does a 4 hour interrogation by the FBI count as a media interview ? I really don't care if my ideas ever get printed. I am a human being by fate and a homesteader by choice and the grace of God. I believe in what I say. I believe to change injustice you must be open,honest and willing to be humiliated to make things change. You must speak boldly and make others look in the mirror. If they don't like what they see than they have two choices--they can continue to be part of the problem, or they can be part of the solution. I always wanted to be a farmer and feed people. The present system of government is making that impossible and making farming a living hell. So, I am speaking out. Hey LBF, You write that article and send me a copy, ok ? If I ever said anything that you want to quote than you print it. You have my permission. My one thought on freedom is--Freedom is obtained by brave men performing brave acts. They follow a "social conciousness" without regard for their own safety or priviledge in life. They act against the will of others for the good of others. Freedom is not a word created by the man or the USA. It is a trait that was passed from God to Adam as he breathed the breath of life into clay.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 02, 2000.

Joel, I totally agree with what ya said, "to change injustice you must be open, honest & willing to be humiliated to make things change", & in my life, I have to add a lot of Prayer, also! When, there is so much injustice it isn't always the easiest path to follow either, (another subject but--I also get up set, that if, it is a "woman" it doesn't count!!) (And I'm not a "women's libber", either) Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), June 02, 2000.

Little Bit, I guess freedom issues are on my mind because we are losing our freedoms so quickly -- and without any say in what's going on. It is like the Bible said it would be in the end times, with good being called evil, and evil being called good. The internet definitely gives me a voice I didn't have before -- we just e-mailed our senators and representatives about the search and seizure thing, and simultaneously notified all our on-line family and friends. I couldn't have done that without the internet -- in fact, it would have taken a lot longer for me to find out about it without the internet. Would I have put my thoughts in print before the internet? Possibly, if anyone had asked me to -- I've written letters to family about some of these things over the years, but never got the impression that most of them were really interested, so have pretty much stopped. I've never been interviewed by anyone on this issue, and if I was asked for an interview would decline unless I knew the person really well and trusted them. It's awfully easy for the interviewer to twist things and selectively edit to make you seem to say what they want you to say. As for what I have to say about freedom: True freedom is from God, and can only be found in Jesus Christ. God is sovereign, and rewards good, and punishes evil. If we lose our freedom (personal, national, whatever) it is because we as a people have done wrong in God's eyes, and are being disciplined. The only thing that will restore our freedom is to repent of our sins and get right with God. Someone (I can't remember who it was) said that our type of government would only work as long as we were a moral people, able to govern ourselves (personally, i.e. doing what is right because it is right, not because a policeman or big brother is breathing over your shoulder). When we lose that, as we have, we will also lose our freedom, and all the militias and all the guns in the world aren't going to help, no matter how good their intentions. The battle is a spiritual battle, and will be won or lost in the hearts of men and women. Even if we were able to oust the current corrupt government and fix all the bad laws, do you really think that we would be able to create anything better, without a whole-hearted national commitment to God? There would be division upon division. Ephesians 4:1-6 talks about the 'seven unities to be kept'; one body (the church), one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all. . . . Even the churches can't hold to sound doctrine well enough to be able to function in the unity of the Spirit. How then can unsaved, unregenerate men and women be expected to agree on anything long enough to put a new government in place? The abortionists would be divided against the pro-lifers. The gun-owners would be divided against the anti-gun faction. The dog-lovers would be divided against the livestock raisers. The strong would win, the weak would be subjected to who knows what (look around at what has been done to millions of people in this century alone, when the people in power didn't want them anymore). I am not for doing nothing, I just don't think we can expect to get anything better than what we have without a fundamental change of heart on the part of every man, woman, and child in this country. So go do what you have to do, but be prepared for the end results to not be what the dreamy-eyed idealists are hoping for.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 02, 2000.

Little Bit: No freedom, no homestead!!!!!!!

-- Norma Lucas (trooper806@webtv.net), June 02, 2000.

1) The "homesteading" or "get back to the earth" movement was spawned during the 60's by folks who felt the need to disconnect from the established way of life that was accepted during that time frame. I think basically that mindset still prevails in today's homesteaders, which by no coincidence, is still comprised by some of those very same folks...only a bit wiser and less idealistic. It takes a certain type of individual to want to go this route...a person who feels the need for the freedoms this type of life offers--regardless to what extent one disconnects--it represents a freedom...the extent of freedom is in proportion to the extent of disconnection from the opressor...which could be yourself.

2) No, just have a bigger audience now. If I were as active for fighting for freedoms as I once was, yes, this venue can reach many people. Just working my bit of land exhausts most of my 50+ year old energy source. Besides, it isn't worth it because the majority of the people don't want true freedom...they want to be taken care of.

3) a. I have in the 60's and early 70s. I was once pretty active in that area of life. Now, it is God, family, farm, and community in that order that gets first crack at my energy...the rest I leave up to you younger folks. Besides, there are all sorts of bondage...not just governmental. I just want to live and let live. b. Freedom is a state of mind. If you are at peace with yourself, you can be in prison and be more free than most folks are. c. Once, by a small town newspaper. I graduated with the editor! ;-)

hope that helps.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), June 02, 2000.



I suspect that this forum is made up of a segment of people from the pool of "the common people". We probably have all felt the way we do for our whole lives and have probably spoken up on these same issues. The problem has been we didn't have access to a medium that could express our thoughts and opinions to so many people. Now that we have it, we are going to use it. I think it is the strongest tool those of us from the common people have to use. Finally, our voice can be heard. We were only the Silent Majority because the people in power kept us silent. They can no longer do that. I think these are exciting times, particularly politically speaking, because I think there will be a big shakeup within the next five years where the common people oust the rich and powerful from dictating how our country is run. As soon as we get our footing and find the way to do it, watch out!!!

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 02, 2000.

As a member of "the media" for more than 20 years, I have seen our freedoms in our areas vastly eroded over the past two decades...but it appears that in the 1990's the government has tried to intrude on practically every area of our daily lives.

As homesteaders, farmers, or whatever we want to call ourselves, WE MUST BE constantly diligant about our freedoms:

whether it is a city or county wishing to take away our rights to use our land as we see fit (so many permits are required to simply make money and pay for more beauracracy....not for any environmental reasons)

the national govt. trying to take away our rights to bear arms.

the governments, national and local, taking away our rights as parents so much in the public school system....(that's the primary reason we were a homeschool family, last child graduated homeschool high school last May)

the govt. tries to regulate how many animals we can have, what type animals; what crops we can grow; etc. There's even been talk of trying to regulate HOME CANNING so that we would not have the freedom to provide for our own families! Think it can't happen----think about the regulations on selling milk from your family cow....your family can drink it now but for how much longer....

I could go on and on but you get the idea. Please e-mail me direct if need be.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), June 02, 2000.


I don't know why the desire for freedom is so important to me that I would take part in discussions, or read all the posts relating to it, on a farming or homesteading forum. I reckon the posts are found here because (for the most part) farmers are an independant breed, though less so now than in the past. Perhaps I should have said homesteaders and small farmers are an independant breed. And what is independance, if not freedom? (Check your thesaurus - independance; see freedom).

My father's people were Celts, always a very territorial and independant people. My paternal immigrant forefathers came here from Ireland, one step ahead of the hangman's rope. My mother's people came from France, hounded from one place to the next, related to their religious beliefs (see history of the Acadians).

I was raised by a mother who's favorite holiday was the Fourth of July and who had been known to write "Capitalism" in on any form where it asked her religion. She told stories of watching the troop trains going past as she waited to cross the track to go to school as a child, and of cowering in fear when an airplane went over - afraid that the German's were bombing Central Illinois. I grew up in a family where most of my parent's brothers and some of their sisters served in the Armed Forces, where photos of them in their uniforms were prominently displayed, and where a large framed photograph of Uncle Harry, killed in action, Germany '44 was enshrined on the wall of every household in my father's family. I grew up on Dad's stories of the Phillipines and Uncle Ralph's stories of guarding the Nazi war criminals - of hearing the rejoicing when a letter would come from my cousin Billy in 'Nam, and the family's acceptance of his silence on the subject when he came home.

I am grateful that I live in a country where I can determine where I want to live and what profession I wish to practice, raise my children in the manner I see fit and practice any or no religion as I choose. While these are the freedoms that I believe that I have, many of the posts on this forum and others inform me that my freedoms are being eroded at a rapid rate. I can't say that I totally disagree with some of the restrictions - some folk's method of raising children smacks of child abuse to me and I'm not much for ritual sacrifice re: some religions. I don't see the need to be fingerprinted for a driver's liscense, have a National ID number, or be restricted in my ability to protect myself and my family by gun control measures. BUT, I will support your right to choose, I will fight for your freedom, even as I curse you for being a damn fool in your choice. I won't, however, fight a political war over oil or other bs of that nature.

The internet has allowed me the opportunity to meet far more like-minded individuals than I could here in my home town, and the ability to exchange views with them. While I've never been backwards about expressing my opinions on a variety of subjects, the net gives me a much larger audience, or forum, if you will, to express those ideas in. Prior to the internet, my views were expressed verbally to family and friends, or written in personal letters, and maybe, although I can't remember doing so, in a letter to the editor. I have never been interviewed by anyone in the media that I recall.

If I had one thing to say regarding freedom, I couldn't do it. Limit myself to only one thing - NOT! Having Freedom is more than just an opportunity, it is also a commitment to protect that freedom - not only your personal freedom, but the freedom of others. I can't recall who said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" but I believe it. The US is not perfect, personal freedom has been eroded "for the good of the people" (more like for the good of a few people), and continueing evidence of this erosion is evident in every issue of the daily news - racial profiling, zoning, Waco, the Weaver's, the little old lady here in Roby, IL that the State Police harrassed for days on end. For the majority of the citizens and inhabitants of this country, however - it's a heck of a sight better than anywhere else. So unless a bunch of you homesteaders want to get together and buy an island somewhere, (preferably with a long growing season and lots of potable water...Hmmm, I see Joel as director of security, Suzy editing the Daily News, Brad as Court Jester, hoot and john leake as the zoning board...) - anyhow, back to the issue - then you need to get out and do something to protect further erosion of those rights. Vote with your pen, let your elected representatives know how you feel on every issue, complain, get as self-sufficient as you can, and have plenty of ammo on hand for the coming revolution.

Thank you for the opportunity to air my opinions.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), June 03, 2000.


Polly: I'd be out of a job! There'd be no zoning board on any utopian island I'd live on. This is about freedom isn't it?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 03, 2000.

Thank you, Polly and John ! After a long week you brought a tear to my eye and a smile on my face, a much needed smile. I guess I would be out of a job also--I cannot see security as an issue with a group of people that conduct themselves with the integrity that you do. I like that 3 crop growing season idea, alot !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 03, 2000.


Nice try boys, but I'm not letting you off the hook.

Joel, just who do you think is going to be in charge of the local militia - someone has to coordinate who does what for when the enemy tries to invade the island! And you know they will cause it will be such a great place to live!

And John, we'll still need someone to make sure that whatever sewage treatment we decide to use doesn't contaminate the water supply - maybe not laws, but advice? Since your wife likes things pretty, she can organize the volunteers to beautify the public park (with bandstand and ball diamond) and public buildings (school, multi-denominational house of worship and town hall).

Becky can take the acute/emergency care clinic and I'll do home health, organize a 4-H club and start the quilting circle. Suzy can write up our town meetings in the paper without getting the blues and Kathleen can teach one of the bible study classes at the MDHOW....

Anyone else care to join in?!

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), June 03, 2000.


I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said "THAT GOVERNMENT IS BEST THAT GOVERNS LEAST." With that in mind it might follow that a truly civilized people would need no laws and the number of laws is in inverse proportion to the degree of CIVILization. Where does that put us now, where we stand as a society today?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 04, 2000.

well I have to digest all this for a while god i love this forum Shaun

-- shaun&terri (shaun-terri@juno.con), June 04, 2000.

Jonh Leake is right -- a truly civilized people wouldn't need any laws, because they would govern themselves (personally -- not each other). Because of the sin nature, that unfortunately can't happen in this age, but there will come a time when it will be a reality. (The new heavens and the new earth, after the millenium.)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), June 05, 2000.

I believe we would need a militia also. So I vote for Joel. I also agree that a civilized people shouldn't need to be told how to behave, but I also believe that even among the most civilized of us there would be a problem somewhere in this utopia where a guideline or two would have to be implemented.

Now to the question:

1. I've thought about freedom and questioned it for most of my life. Mostly just questions I never followed up on. Now that I am older, I have realized that I have to look in the mirror and decide where I stand and what my part is. It's a hard thing to scrutinize yourself and to acknowledge what youfind. That is why most people just stand by and hope for the best. They might have to change or do something. The latest thing that has caused me to think about it is our soon to be appointed state board of ed. in Ohio. A bill for appointed board members was presented to the education committee and because of lack of favorable votes was thrown out. So the bill was renumbered and repackaged and presented to the finance committee. A hearing was held and alot of people showed up. An hour was allowed for testimony from randomly chosen people from the crowd. Out of 50 testimonies only 4 were in favor of this. But, guess what! The finance committee went against the people and voted in favor of appointed instead of elected board members. Now there will be a full house vote soon. I hope the governor is home school friendly and doesn't have some way out agenda. Who knows what will happen to home school regs. in Ohio. My rep. is on finance and voted in favor even after I called to let my opinion be known(among other people). I even called after this vote to let her know my displeasure about her vote. No response.

2. Yes the internet helps me to express myself. I express myself here because I can find like minded people here that arent happy with the status quo. Most of the people I know personally arent willing to contemplate that something might be wrong. It's too scary. It scares me too. But ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

3. I've never been interviewed. I would never want to cause my family harm so I would be cautious as to what I would say given the opportunity. I admire those of you who seem to be able to make no bones about your stand. I think there are a lot of people like me who feel the way i do but dont know quite what to do next.

Denise H.

-- Denise Hammock (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 05, 2000.


LBF, look at the history of the homesteading movement since, for lack of a better bookmark, the founding of Mother Earth News in 1970, and you'll find a common thread running through it of skepticism and criticism of government that can be translated as concern for freedom. Many of those early homesteaders came out of the anti-war and civil rights campaigns of the 60s and 70s or were mightily influenced by them. They knew then, as we know now, that no government has ever given back power it has taken from the governed. I've watched with interest as the disillusionment of Vietnam and Watergate has evolved from "the government should do something" to "the government is doing what?" Politically, many of us have gone through a largely unacknowledged shift from traditional liberalism to a sort of neolibertarianism. It's that old saw: A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged. Well, a lot of us have been mugged repeatedly, by everything from local regulatory boards to the WTO.

The irony is, many of us weren't willing to voice our thoughts because we were afraid we were alone and would be branded as nutcases. Most people think we're weird anyway for our homestead lifestyles and philosophy. The internet has given us more than a voice -- it's given us community. When you know you're not alone in your beliefs, it's a lot easier to speak up for those beliefs.

I've been saying we and us not to characterize this forum but to reflect my own experience and observations among the homesteading community with which I'm familiar. It's also something I see clearly in the periodicals that are aimed at the homesteading market. (Forget Mother Earth News, it's gone mainstream suburbia.) Small Farm Journal adopted a new slogan with its most recent issue that reflects it quite well, a dedication line under the title that I can't recall exactly right now but is worth investigating by you. If you can't find a copy, let me know here and I'll dig out mine and post it.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), June 05, 2000.


Freedom is very much on my mind because without it I wouldn't even be able to homestead the way I am now. Sometimes it's just the little things government does, like establish and enforce housing standards so that a person can't ever save enough cash to buy a house, they have to take out an enormous mortgage, if they can qualify for one, just to own a home. You can't build your own and inhabit it without permits and inspections etc. And God forbid you tell an inspector that you'll just haul water from the spring until you can save up enough to buy a new well pump - especially if you have children.

Where we live, if you have more then 50 cows you have to build a lagoon to handle the manure. It makes sense if you have these critters limited to 10 or 20 acres, but if you have 200 acres for these animals, you still have to have a lagoon. Government agencies can and do slap mandates on you that hurt.

Bottom line is that sometimes homesteaders/farmers have to take a creative approach to deal with a situation that doesn't fit neatly into someone's little regulatory box.

Then the ever favorite issue of our guns. All I can say is that we do not intend to give them up. We dispatch animals with them (for example - I can put down a dying calf, but I can't put down a dog). We target shoot and hunt. Guns are a valuble tool and if some parents spent more time parenting instead of chasing dollars maybe their kids wouldn't be in gangs or shooting up schools. I should know, my oldest boy ran wild and it took moving to a semi-remote homestead and a complete change in lifestyle to reign him in.

This internet forum allows me to express myself on certain issues conveniently to a wider range of people who share many of my interests, but there are many like minded people I associate with anyway. One advantage of the internet is that it gives you some degree of anonymity if you desire it. Furthermore, one great advantage of the internet is that it's an equalizer. People can pretty much say what they want and access isn't controlled (yet). Somewhere in cyberspace I can look for truth in events going on around me, and that is something we don't get from the media. Just look at the Bush campaign, the media was treating him like some kind of heir to the throne without ever really giving much time to candidates such as Alan Keyes.

-- Anne Tower (bbill@wtvl.net), June 07, 2000.


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