Helen made some fine points on another thread that may tie together some topics of discussion. Ill repeat it here in its entirety.

Orphaned elephant babies raised apart from adult elephants exhibited unnatural (for an elephant at that age) aggression. They attacked each other and other species. This behavior orginated primarily in the orphaned males. Young males too young for mating in a wild herd raped young females too young to be in estrous. The solution to the violence was to bring in adult bull elephants. The aggression and sexual behavior in the young elephants stopped.

Human females show a tendency to synchronize menstrual cycles when in close contact. The tendency has to do with female hormones and their effect on the brain. Stress hormones affect the brain. Prolonged stress can produce physical changes in the brain. What about brain changes as a result of other hormones and prolonged exposure to them?

Brain functions are complex and only partially understood.

My husband once took a job that required 100% travel, and he was rarely home for more than a few hours per week. Within two weeks of his departure, our young son began to exhibit aggression and hypersensitivity to stressful situations. He became more anxious about dangers that he imagined. The changes in the boy were so pronounced that his teachers requested a conference. The only thing in his life that had changed was the absence of his father. My husband came home to stay a year later, and the behaviors in our son stopped soon after.

What if there were an undiscovered synchronicity in hormone cycles among men? What if hormone exposure induced permanent brain changes even though the hormone originated outside of that particular brain? What if the physical presence of an adult male in a boy's life made a physical difference in his brain structure completely apart from the definitions of "male behavior" that are culture-dependent? What if time spent with an adult male is the key to masculinity for a boy, and for that matter, femininity in a girl? What if it isn't one big rite of passage but a daily process that makes a man out of a boy? The roles my husband and I play in our children's lives are equally important, but they are not mirror images and they are not interchangeable.

(A resounding thud, as she falls off the soapbox...)

-- helen (w@y.out), May 26, 2000.

I reported the story about a local teacher being shot by a student, and after starting the thread I heard on the news that the police were interviewing the youths PARENT! And it was not the kids father they were talking about. So here is, in essence, one of those aggressive young elephants raised without a fatherly influence. Now please no accusations of racism for the following statement, but the kid was black, and I feel that it is not a stretch to say that the black community has a big problem with absent fathers, a cultural phenomenon brought about in large measure by the fact that welfare and other relief programs will not help families that have a father in the household. So, in order to receive benefits the father leaves, if in fact he was ever a part of the home. Please note that the same thing applies to whites but it seems to me that the black comunity has a much larger problem with this. Look at the wildness of todays youth, while crime may be down in general I think that it is safe to say that the young people of today are acting in ways that confound those of us who were raised 20 years ago.

To me it seems that the government programs meant to save children from poverty (and other things) are destroying the fabric of our society, undermining the basic belief that one is responsible for ones actions and the result of those actions.

Take for example the War On Drugs. Here is a program meant to save children, and adults, from the horrors of drug addiction. And what is the end result of this war?

For one thing a breakdown in respect for authority. Teenaged kids know that to classify pot in the same category as heroin is ridiculous, and they know that government exaggerates the harm that pot smoking does to you. When kids realize that they are being lied to I do not believe that leads to them respecting the liar, and I believe that it leads them to doubting anything else that comes from the same source. (OK, maybe this one is in a way a good thing)

Another side effect of this war is an increase in lawlessness. Do you have any doubt that gang related violence is a direct result of fighting over drug profits and territory? I see kids on TV talking about how this one or that one was shot in a casual manner that frankly fills me with dread. Once you are selling drugs you are a criminal, how far a stretch is it for you to then become involved in other criminal activities? And just how far will you go when all of the male authority figures in your life are other gangstas?

So what you have is a system that removes fathers from homes, and is also responsible for a "war" that tempts these same underprivledged kids to make the "big bucks" selling dope, like the other "men" do.

Any thoughts on this?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 27, 2000

Answers

i,m gonna catch hell, but here go,s--the disciples asked JESUS what would be a key sign of the end-times.HE said''as it was in the day,s of noah-so shall it be AT THE COMING OF HIS RETURN. 1 of the signs was =increase in violence=un-belief-no-restraint. these are the wake up call-signs.oh another biggee,would be a 'lack of respect for human -life.ANARCHY'RAGE'UN-GODLINESS'PROFANITY'LYING calling =evil=good.----somethin,s in the wind.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 27, 2000.

Unk:

To address your title, I saw Helen's post on the topic mentioned and didn't necessarily agree. Of course you know I saw the manhood thread and didn't agree. I don't think single parents are the cause. If this were the case, how do you explain the killings at Columbine? Both of the young men involved there came from families that had two parents, but the parents weren't paying attention to the children.

That the phenomenon of not paying attention to the children occurs more often in single-parent homes seems to me to be less one of design than need to concentrate one's efforts on providing income.

I don't recall the age of Helen's son when her husband left for a year, but I felt capable of handling any aggressiveness in my son after my divorce, and I wouldn't have allowed HIM to use a baby elephant excuse for his behavior. [Then again, he'd already worn out that excuse when he told me at age 2 that a baby elephant had created the hole in the knee of his pants.]

Children need attention and they need a family unit. They don't need more than they have unless what they have isn't fulfilling their needs. It's up to the parent to watch the children and determine whether their emotional needs are being met. It's up to the parent to check on whether children are building bombs in their bedrooms. Boys and girls alike "act out" when their needs aren't met. When *I* took a full-time job, my son soon afterward began flashing both his genitals and buttocks at school. This is a SIGNAL, and one that must be dealt with, both by spending more time with the child and explaining that the behavior exhibited is unacceptable.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

Al-

Just wondering; do you ever proofread your posts? For example, there is a difference between an apostrophe and a comma. And CAPITALIZING'WORDS=ANDRUNNING'THEM=ALLTOGETHER=DOESNOTMAKE YOURPOINT'COMEACROSSBETTER. Or do you just not care? I know some folks are gonna flame me for bringing this up, but maybe if you took 30 seconds to make your posts more readable, people might, uh.....read them. Just an observation.

-- (God Bless @l.d), May 27, 2000.

The absence of the father or other strong male influence often does have a detrimental effect on adolescent males. Unfortunately, some states like Kalifonria further limit the ability of the head of the household to properly discipline defiant young males. I have personally observed and experienced this. We wouldn't have gang punks very long if the parent's (particularly the father's) right to do whatever's necessary to re-establish discipline were to be restored.

-- Flash (flash@no.more.punks), May 27, 2000.

Flash:

You haven't addressed why discipline needed to be RE-established, nor have you addressed why gender plays a role in establishing discipline. Discipline need not be RE-established if discipline is never lost. Children need consistency. They see right through a woman who thinks, "His father isn't here. I need to cut him some slack."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

Flash: The absence of the father or other strong male influence often does have a detrimental effect on adolescent males.

Based on my experience I would change the wording to The presence of the father or other strong male influence often does have a detrimental effect on adolescent males.

Just depends on the character of the male influence & the process of relating to the child. Jeez, what am I doing speaking on child- rearing? Ive yet to so much as hold a baby in thirty-five years of life!

Also, I dont know your experience in/with gangs,, but people who put no value on life wont be stymied, much less saved by having a male in the house. Those on the fringe of gang life can be saved if the family is willing to move to another neighborhood/school district. This provides a measure of safety for the child as well as alters set & setting, thereby giving changes in the childs thinking a more fertile soil in which to grow roots.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 27, 2000.

Bingo:

You brought up a good point. Just because a father planted a seed that produced a child doesn't mean he has any concern for his child. In fact, quite the opposite might be the case. The same holds true for a birth mother. She may have absolutely no interest in the child at all. In SOME cases, kids have BOTH parents that have no interest in the child.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

If a politician EVER spoke as intelligently about drugs as Unk, Id bust my hump for him/her in their campaign for election. I dont care if the position is for dog catcher!

The 'war on drugs' is a nasty combination of ignorance & corruption. I can understand how a person who never had curiosity sufficient to experiment with various psychoactive substances could be duped by those espousing 'knowledge of the evils' of this drug or that. We all rely on 'experts' for information on subjects we know little about or don't have the time to research. This is a practical feature of societal living.

The ignorance I rail against is that of these experts. If one hasnt experienced the (psychoactive) drug one cant possibly consider themselves expert. This is as close as Ill ever come to making a statement & declaring it to be FACT. I like to leave wiggle room, for myself & others. Not this time.

I cant speak to the corruption angle because I have little firsthand experience other than a crooked cop here & there - OK everywhere! Cops dont write legislation. Cops dont vote to pass bills into law. I mention corruption because the dots can be connected pretty easily, IMO. Where money & power reside, we can be sure humans will abuse them to their own ends. I wont shout conspiracy, but I will whisper it.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 27, 2000.

Anita,

"They see right through a woman who thinks, "His father isn't here. I need to cut him some slack."

Truer words are seldom spoken. I just spent 6 years trying to raise another man's kids and would never even consider doing it again. My one consolation is that my step-daughter (now 20) has turned out fairly well, and would likely have turned out otherwise without a positive male presence in her life. The boy was a problem from the beginning and caused us no end of woe. His mother can't seem to stop trying to rescue him and protecting him from the consequences of his own actions. She repeatedly undercut and nullified my efforts to correct and guide him, efforts that had begun to show some positive results. He is now 18 and still a worthless, lazy, lying, abusive drone. Surprisingly he and I get along fairly well because he knows that I am fair and consistant. But he still uses and abuses his mother terribly and his sister, too, although to a lesser degree. His mother has raised a woman-abuser and I pity any young women that have the misfortune to be attracted to him. Unfortunately, he is very handsome a smooth-talker, and clever liar. His biological father abandoned the family when he was 2 or 3, and the boy undoubtedly never got over it. The best thing that ever happened to him was to get busted for selling pot, and spend several months in juvenile detention.

Bingo1,

I guess it depends on the male. Unless he is a degenerate jerk and perhaps a woman-abuser or maybe if he doesn't care about the kids then they would be better off without him. But most kids I know benefit from having a positive male presence in their lives. This goes for the girls, too. By strong, I wasn't referring to just physical strength, but rather to character, morality, etc.

I absolutely agree with you about the war on drugs! It has truly corrupted our government and is causing massive injustice in America. Our prisons are full of people who have no business being there, and are serving long terms for often minor drug offenses. I also agree with you that many so-called "experts" are really anything but expert. Fortunately there are many good people out there trying to help these kids, if you are lucky enough to find one.

-- Flash (flash@no.govt.thugs), May 27, 2000.

Unk

It is difficult to speak of this latest incident without crossing the PC line. Suffice it to say that certain elements of our society live with a separate set of values then do the rest of us. Trying to make some sense out of all of this will drive you insane. I hear the new Hero in the Hood is none other than Ray Lewis! To imagine that it will get better is to be in serious denial. I sure as hell dont have any answersany that you would like to hear anyway.

Driscol

You might broaden your horizons by reading Hustler now and then.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 27, 2000.

Our society has sure let a lot of things get, out of hand.The system needs some changes that do not involve giving up more of our freedoms. We see so much money wasted and such poor results from what is spent. At present drugs do more harm to the system than to the individuals. The governor of Nevada was on 60 minutes asking for changes in the drug laws...less laws...less prisons...less crimes. The establishment turned a blind eye to his ideas.

As regards the crimes of the young, the answer is everywhere... Give the teachers the right to keep discipline in the schools. Give parents the right to keep discipline at home. Stop the violent crap shown on TV. Teach values at home, school and church.

When (reasonable & fair & just) laws are broken....make the punishment fit the crime.

This sounds good to me but it ain't gonna happen...anytime soon.

-- fauna (xx@xx.edu), May 27, 2000.

Fauna, I heartily agree. The only way we can turn it around is to start ignoring the establishment media and elect people with better values who are willing to change the laws back to things that work. I'd rather raise kids in Nevada than Kalifornia any day!!!

-- Flash (flash@vote.'em.out), May 27, 2000.

Unc, I have a daughter now grown-up.As her mother(female person) I never had too much problem understanding where she was coming from even in the horrible teenage years.

Later, when I remarried, I also gained a 14 year stepson.He was and is as good as gold but what motivated and interested him I never have understood.It was as though we were on two different planets.Now one can postulate many obvious reasons for this divide but I have come to the conclusion that young males have a completely different agenda than females.If this is the case a single mother with sons is always going to find it tough going.(Perhaps,return in full circle to the quest for "Manliness" & remembering Ken Decker's request that the Ladies butt out of the thread).

If mature males can be waffling around on this subject(this is not a criticism) what hope is there for a youngster?

I think Ken was wrong to ask us to stay off the thread because surely it has been the rise of feminist self -determination that has been largely responsible for the need of men to re-evaluate the concept of manliness?

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), May 27, 2000.

Bingo1 you said "Based on my experience I would change the wording to The presence of the father or other strong male influence often does have a detrimental effect on adolescent males.

Just depends on the character of the male influence & the process of relating to the child. Jeez, what am I doing speaking on child- rearing? Ive yet to so much as hold a baby in thirty-five years of life!"

You don't have experience with child-rearing, but surely you can remember what was a positive influence when YOU were growing up? That's first-hand experience. I myself had both my parents at home, and both were very involved with me and paid a lot of attention to what I was doing. Sometimes back then I complained that they did TOO much! But in hindsight now I realize that they could have been involved even more, if they knew better. I made it my job as a parent myself to know better than my own parents, and I hope my own children will improve on my own parenting skills, and I let them know that.

I personaly believe that boys need a male presence in their lives to model after, and girls a female model. It doesn't necessarily need to be a parent, but someone they can look up to and admire, and who is available and close by. This is the idea behind the Big Brother organization. Not having such a role model for each sex IMO leave the kids in confused limbo, especially in teen years, at a time when we're trying to find who we are, what we should be and do. No matter how involved and diligent a mother is with her son, if there is no strong and stable male presence in his life the boy will be having difficulties adjusting in society. Same for girls. A girl who models strongly after her father with no strong influence from a well adjusted woman will have difficulties adjusting socially.

-- (y@x.x), May 27, 2000.

y:

How does a child [even a teen] know if a parent is well-adjusted? I love my mother dearly, but I can think of few areas in which her input in my life was anything other than 180 degrees incorrect. Fortunately, [for me], she was too busy with hobbies, etc. to care much about what I did beyond early childhood.

My father was the one who sat and talked with me. My mom stopped being my role model in perhaps 4th grade. I would agree that kids need a role model, but I wouldn't agree that the role model need be of the same gender. Plenty of females don't want to disappoint their fathers, and plenty of males don't want to disappoint their mothers. The strength of the fear of disappointment is directly proportionate to the status the parent [or other role model] has in our lives.

Which parent gave you the time? Which parent TAUGHT you things that YOU wanted to learn, as opposed to things THEY wanted to teach? Which parent helped develop your sense of self-worth? Who was the loving force in your life? Who was there to comfort you when skies were grey? Who gave you the courage to face anything? Some kids don't have this in EITHER parent, even when both parents are present.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

y,

You nailed it. Well said.

My change of absence to presence was to point out the fact that having just any male in the house isn't what counts. The male must be of good character to have a positive effect. To me that is an obvious statement, yet I sense this is not the thinking in general.

Or perhaps my standards are impossibly high.

I spent many a weekend sitting on a bar stool - at age 5, 6, 7... My role models were war vets seeking solace in booze & like-minded company.

It was good training in that I learned to keep my mouth shut & my eyes open. I learned to always address male adults as sir. I learned the difference between sipping whiskey & shootin' whiskey. I learned one should pace themself or you'd end up making loud noises in the bathroom. I learned to never sit with your back to the door.

Y, if you have any firsthand experience with the Big Brother organization I'd be interested in hearing about it.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 27, 2000.

Bingo is pronoun-challenged today. Too many errors to correct. Sorry.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 27, 2000.

Quick thoughts(she's not ready yet : )

My Mom pretty much raised me and I think she did an excellent job,she taught me many invaluable lessons about being a man,sounds odd,but true.When discipline was to be administered she was the ONE who truly instilled fear,(and that weeping willow tree.)

I don't think it's as much about'who'raises the kids but'how'the kids are raised.And as a side note,sometimes the qualities a parent doesn't possess winds up being something that strengthens the child in later life.For example,in the late 70's after dad left,mom became addicted to "downs" and was pretty much useless,so I all but raised my sister.While some would say that,it was a tragic burden for me to bear I say hogwash,it helped give me a strong backbone and insight both into child raising,caring for the addicted,women,household/school/work/time management and real life.

Gotsta Go! mayhaps more later?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 27, 2000.

The point of the post was not whether or not a single mother could meet the emotional needs of her children or what type of discipline is best, the point was the question:

Does the PHYSICAL presence of an adult male on a daily basis produce PHYSICAL changes in a boy's hormone levels, and if so, would those hormonal changes result in permanent PHYSICAL changes in the boy's brain?

I used the illustration of my own son's behavior in the absence of his father because I saw it. He was and is a sweet, kind, and helpful person. During his father's absence he was hypersensitive and anxious and aggressive in all situations. We didn't punish him during that year nor in the time after his dad came home. He simply went back to being his sweet self about two weeks after his dad came home. He is much, much calmer when he spends time with his dad daily. I wonder if there is a physical basis for this, that's all.

-- helen (been@the.graves), May 27, 2000.

Helen:

"Does the PHYSICAL presence of an adult male on a daily basis produce PHYSICAL changes in a boy's hormone levels, and if so, would those hormonal changes result in permanent PHYSICAL changes in the boy's brain?"

In a nutshell, Helen, my opinion would be "NO", although I'm not a doctor and don't play one on the internet. My PERSONAL opinion [not that you asked for it] would be that your son missed his dad and acted out when his needs weren't met. Changes in hormone levels would require medical testing.

BTW, are you the same Helen that will be attending the picnic in June at Hardliner's place? If so, has anyone told you how to get there, or am I not receiving the directions because my presence is no longer desired?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

Helen:

I do not believe the presence of a male changes the brain chemistry of the male child. Just my vote.

Bingo:

I feel like I have landed in the movie "Being John Malkovich"-Instead the movie is "being Bingo1". My experience was exactly the same as your with your father-I too spent saturday afternoons at the age of 5,6,7, et al-sitting at the local lost souls bar wondering how many more games of pool or shuffleboard I could play, and how many more cokes I could drink before I went nuts.

I did not have a male role model-My father emotionally and at times physically abused my mother in his drunken fits-He has not died from the disease of alcoholism-but he has left all the family members "dead" in some small way. I have grown up to be a decent, caring man-a responsible, hard-working person who puts family needs in the proper priority-Did I learn this as a child? I do not know- what I DO know is that, in my thirties, I had to learn all these things about being an adult-and I did because I wanted my life to be better.

The chemical transference theory cannot explain how I changed from being a human gutterrat to a responsible human being.

Unk:

With all due respect, I disagree with blaming government programs for societal ills-And the reference to race is only slightly backed by fact-but mostly it appears you are using innuendo to say that the issue of crimes committed by blacks are the problem. I cannot agree with this in a million years. In fact, I do not know why you refer to race at all-I think it is an insult, though I do not believe it was intended.

The biggest problem is trying to generalize what is wrong with society today-There is no one answer, and any attempt at finding one good answer is bound to be fruitless. If anything will ever be found to explain this behavior it will be found by the sociologists, the anthropologists, who are trained at finding patterns in the behaviors of societies. They can take the cases of mass killings and see if there are any commonalities.

Anything other than leaving it to the social scientists, I'm afraid, is going to lead to "bar fights" and disagreements between people taking sides who cannot really know the truth of their postulates.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 27, 2000.

Folks, I'm not asking for a vote, I'm asking for some scientific study on the subject to see if it pans out. Sorry, been in the hot sun with 100% humidity standing over dead people ALL day...

-- helen (gr@ves.today), May 28, 2000.

I'm sorry that you see it that way FS. I do not think anyone will confuse me with a bigot or a racist, but neither will I tip-toe around an issue just because it may offend someone's sensibilities.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

PS, That is another societal ill, fear of calling a spade a spade because somebody or some group might get their feelings hurt. Tough shit.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

"Y, if you have any firsthand experience with the Big Brother organization I'd be interested in hearing about it."

Bingo, no I don't have firsthand experience, but I've read enough about it to know that it is for young boys needing positive male influence in their lives.

"Which parent gave you the time? Which parent TAUGHT you things that YOU wanted to learn, as opposed to things THEY wanted to teach? Which parent helped develop your sense of self-worth? Who was the loving force in your life? Who was there to comfort you when skies were grey? Who gave you the courage to face anything? Some kids don't have this in EITHER parent, even when both parents are present."

Anita, I still think that we learned the gist of "being a woman" and modeled after our mother for certain things. But we all learn from different people at different stage of our lives; teachers, older siblings, aunts/uncles, actors, pastors, bosses, idols/heroes and whatnot. I've learned a lot from my father and he was also a strong influence on me. Both my parents had good ethics and values IMO, for which I'm greatful. But I did not identify with my dad for gender roles, e.g., I did not pick up swearing and sitting in sprawled leg men-style, but learned "lady ways", of which I think my mother was a good model. I'm not here to critique your moral/values and feminity, it's all in the eye of the beholder. What I'm trying to say is that the person of the same sex that is the closest to us in early life is the one with the potential for most good or bad or in-between in our development. If a positive father figure isn't present in a teenager's life, a boy who is trying to define himself as a man, I would argue that boy would act rebellious towards his mother discipline, and rebellious in general. It's not to say that the mother could not have control over the kid, but that if a father was present (a father with a good head on his shoulders, not a drunk or woman beater), perhaps that boy would not be as rebellious to begin with, hence tending to be less in trouble.

FS: From your experience in early childhood with your father you say you learned bad habits, and then in your 30's you decided to lead a better life; who was/were your male models you learned from then? Do you still have favorite models you aspire to emulate?

There are some things I am proud to emulate from my own mother, and some others I am not. I try to improve on myself constantly as I mature, and I have many feminine role models I look up to, intelligent women who appear to lead successful, fullfilling and happy lives, that have traits I admire. I think this is something all of us do throughout our lives, from birth to death. And I believe that in young kids, especially teens, a lack of constant and positive role model in their lives is what causes many kids to drift and fall into crime. It appears that too many of them latch on to music and movie stars as role models for lack of one (more positively influential) at home.

All this is IMHO, as I am no sociologist/therapist etc.

-- (y@x.x), May 28, 2000.

Chris,

Let's say you overhear a group of black men talking about "the black experience." As a white person, do you push your way into the circle and begin holding forth on what YOU think the black experience is? The existence of slavery contributed to the culture of African- Americans. Using your logic, white Americans should be involved in the intra-racial dialogue because they helped create the situation.

Of course, I think there is a need for a honest dialogue on race in America... one where blacks and whites can speak freely without the bounds of political correctness. I also think it is perfectly acceptable for cultures, races or genders to explore issues within a particular group. And I think it's respectful to allow these dialogues.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 28, 2000.

A few other things, forgive the multiple posts, I was in chat but am out now and I shall try to be coherent.

FS,

So if, as you say, these government programs are not hurting society I can only conclude that you believe it is a GOOD thing that these programs insist that there be no father in the home? Sorry if I do not agree with you in a million years. And to say that we need to throw up our hands and let the experts handle this is laughable. Experts have gotten us into this mess, what we need is a little common sense and personal responsability.

And just so that folks do not think that I am talking out my ass, I was raised without a father. My mother did the best she could to set us on the straight and narrow while trying also to keep food on the table. I was a wild and troubled kid, I was in trouble a LOT, and it was only luck and chance that kept me from being in some very serious trouble. I'm not too shy to say that my life was impacted negatively because I had no dad. I know the importance of having one around, in retrospect anyway.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

Hey, do NOT blame the elephants!

-- x (x@x.x), May 28, 2000.

--y

While I did not have a specific role model when I cleaned up my life, I do owe a debt of gratitude to my AA sponsor, who 5 years later is still my sponsor. While a flawed human being, he still instilled in me a sense of committment and responsibility. Other male members of the group also taught me the small things that add up to being a kind, spiritually centered adult. But not to neglect the ladies, there were also women in the group who taught me valuable lesons.

Unk:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. I do not want to create any animosity between us, and sometimes when I feel passionate about an issue, such as rascism, I end up saying things to offend people. Peace.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 28, 2000.

"I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue."

I couldn't have said it better, FS. Everyone has their own experiences/opinions and mine are in the minority on this topic.

Some kids grow up to be fine, upstanding citizens having lived in single-parent homes and homes in which both parents worked outside the home. Some kids grow up with both parents concerned and available for them, but don't feel comfortable telling their parents what's bothering them. We're getting into the nature versus nurture issue again. I probably didn't mention it at the time, but when Pig- Boy? [someone with a pig in their handle] was discussing a similar topic on another thread, he/she insisted that nature was the cause. I felt that nurture was the cause, and received an E-mail from someone who had a "bad" kid, telling me that Pig-Boy was right...some kids are just bad seeds. Remember that movie? "Give me those shoes!" [I've come full circle now.]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 28, 2000.

No real point to make here except to observe some relevant literature and TV

Remember the book "Lord of the Flies" by Golding? About how the savagery inherant in us can predominate in a setting that has no adults to socialize the children.

Just finished, a series on HBO called "The Corner". It was a no-holds barred look at the wreckage produced by the drug culture in a black urban neighborhood (Baltimore). Twenty years ago, this program would have been called rascist.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 28, 2000.

FS,

I am able to fight tough and then shake hands with no hard feelings, that is if my opponent keeps the shots above the belt. Don't worry about hurting my feelings.

I am curious why you have avoided my question. Does or does not Welfare program break down the family structure by insisting that there be no father in home? And if this policy does break down the family unit how can that be a good thing?

Also, when do observations about the troubles of the black community cross over into racism? You said that my statement was backed 'slightly' by fact, does a statement backed 'slightly' by fact become racist because it pokes at ugly truths? Or, in the same manner, is a statement backed 'slightly' by fact not racist if it glosses over ugly truths? Or is a statement racist simply because it includes a reference to race?

Finally, do you believe that the black community has a greater or lesser problem with fatherless households than the white community does, and why or why not?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

Unk:

You have built yourself a trap and fallen into it. If, as you say, welfare insists that the household be fatherless(could you provide a reference for that language in the federal code?, then the problem of fatherless households in caucasian families must be vastly larger than that in african-american households, since the large majority of americans receiving welfare are caucasian. Do you then agree with me that the problem is not more prevalent in african-american households?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

FS,

"since the large majority of americans receiving welfare are caucasian."

Can you show us some statistics? This is contrary to what one sees in Kalifornia.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), May 29, 2000.

CHARACTERISTICS AND FINANCIAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF TANF RECIPIENTS FY 1998

The average monthly number of TANF families was 3,176,000 in fiscal year (FY) 1998. The average number of persons in TANF families was 2.8 persons. The TANF families averaged 2 recipient children. About seventy percent of families had only one adult recipient, and five percent included two or more adult recipients.

Of TANF families, 98 percent received cash and cash equivalents assistance with the monthly average amount of $358 under the State TANF program. Of such TANF families, 84 percent received Food Stamp assistance, which is consistent with previous levels. Also, almost every TANF family was eligible to receive medical assistance under the State plan approved under title XIX.

The average age of TANF adult recipients was 30 years. Of TANF adult recipients, 6 percent were teenagers and 19 percent were 40 years of age or older. About 4 percent of TANF adult recipients were teen parents whose child was also a member of the TANF family. Only 16 percent of adult recipients were married and living together.

Black adults comprised 37 percent of TANF families. White adults comprised 36 percent of adult recipients and 20 percent were Hispanic. Of adult recipients, 1.6 percent were American Indian or Alaska Native.

Black children continued to be the largest group of welfare children, comprising about 41 percent of recipient children. About 29 percent of TANF recipient children were white and 24 percent were Hispanic.

Non-citizens residing legally in this country were 11 percent of TANF adults.

Work participation was mandatory for almost three of every five adult recipients. Of TANF adult recipients, about 8 percent were exempt from the work participation because they were single custodial parents with child under 12 months. Only three percent were exempt because of a sanction or participation in a Tribal Work Program. Nearly 17 percent were exempt from the work participation status because of a good cause exception, e.g., disabled, in poor health, or other. About 12 percent were teen parents who were required to participate in education.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) Program U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES Administration for Children and Families Office of Planning, Research and Evaluation Washington, DC 20447

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

There's a plethora of links to tables at the bottom of the above linked page.

Now I want to see some blood, people!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

If I build a trap....they will come.

I cannot provide anything but personal experience, re: lady I know who's family fell upon hard times. She was not going to get anything because her husband lived with her, but, when he moved out to live with a friend, in rolled the cash. He was the one not able to work, so it was not an income issue. Perhaps this was a state program, and I was mistaken about federal guidelines. One thing that I enjoy about this board is that errors in thought do not go long unchallenged.

Bingo's post included the following:

Black adults comprised 37 percent of TANF families. White adults comprised 36 percent of adult recipients and 20 percent were Hispanic. Of adult recipients, 1.6 percent were American Indian or Alaska Native.

That is a misleading statement. If you look into the linked tables at the bottom of that page, you will find recipient families broken down by race:

U.S. TOTAL FAMILIES: 3,175,646 WHITE: 32.7% BLACK: 39.0% HISPANIC:22.2%

Why the perception on my part that blacks have a larger problem with fatherless homes? Is it because while blacks are a decided numerical minority in this country, they are the majority of welfare recipients? Or is it because so many black males are in jail due to the war on drugs? (Another govt fiasco destroying the fabric of the black community) Or do the statistics in the TANF tables indicate that my perceptions are correct?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

FutureShock, seems like weve traveled down this road before so Ill be brief. In your unrelenting quest for political correctness you are displaying a flawed position of ignorance. You are not in touch with the reality of our welfare system and the rules of the game. Ill ask for some others to check-in on this thread and assist in your education regarding the minority breeding farms that have been set- up throughout urban America. You are most likely a good person that just refuses to believe the truth of it all. I wish sometimes I could share your innocent views but unfortunately, Ive been in the pits where the ugly truth lies.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

This is really a complex issue, and you raise some interesting points. The benefit program linked is only one of many; I am not sure that every entitlement program breaks down by race the same way. It is certainly verifiable that there are more african-americans on some kind of entitlement program than their precentage of the population- but that opens up a whole can of worms as to why this is true. Have african-americans been offered the same opportunities for prosperity as their caucasian counterparts? Obviously not. Burger King or collect at home and spent time raising your child? I have to ask what all of us would do if we were born into the abject poverty that many of these folks face-would we prefer the entitlement to "Paper or Plastic"?

And you brought up an important point about incarceration. Are all households without a father a result of "deadbeat" fathers? I committed drug felonies on an almost daily basis when I was using, and I never got arrested. I was never randomly pulled over as I drove the interstate with cocaine, or any other illicit drug in my possession. The issue of racial profiling is real-This is not to say drug use is good-and certainly a drug abuser, if he/she has not left the house, is a candidate to be a total deadbeat. However, if more rehabilitation were available instead of more cells, there might be a different story in the long run.

There are no easy answers to these complex issues. TO say government entitlements lead to malaise in the recipient is not an adequate answer to the question of what ills our society. We must ask ourselves have we done everything possible to insure that EVERY american, regardless of ethnicity, has an equal opportunity. My answer to that is that this has not happened.

I stand corrected in my assumption about which race receives the majority of benefits, at least with the program Bingo linked.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

Have african-americans been offered the same opportunities for prosperity as their caucasian counterparts?....We must ask ourselves have we done everything possible to insure that EVERY american, regardless of ethnicity, has an equal opportunity. My answer to that is that this has not happened.

And I will again disagree with you. One of the wealthiest men in our community here is a black lawyer. His PERSONAL airplane is a 737! He lives in a huge magnificent waterfront estate, and hobnobs regularly with President Clinton and the Democratic elite. He was a sharecropper's son and amassed his incredible fortune through hard work and discipline. Anyone who has the desire to work hard and smart is able to achieve similar things, with a bit of good fortune thrown in, of course.

I wonder how it is that black folks who come here from Jamaica and Haiti are able to succeed through hard work in the very same 'racist' country that supposedly keeps the black man down? Believe me, this is South Florida, I know what I'm talking about, these folks do well. It is certainly not because of the color of their skin, which is much darker than the skin tone of most American born blacks. How do you account for the success of the Vietnamese boat people? These people for the most part could not even speak the english language! I think it is because of their attitude; the attitude that this is a land of opportunity, rather than a land of racist whites denying the minority peoples their chance at success.

What must happen, in your mind, in order to believe that we have "insure(d) that EVERY american, regardless of ethnicity, has an equal opportunity"?

I hope that your answer does not include more government programs, programs which inevitably make the problem they were meant to help worse, or at least no better. Yes, that is indeed a blanket statement. Shall we discuss the successes of the Federally overseen US public school system next?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

Very good. You are starting to play chess as if you know your opponent. That is exactly where I was going in my next response. It does start in the school systems. Have you seen the schools in the South Bronx? East L.A.? The school system is in shambles. Teacher pay is outrageously low. We live in a country where we pay our entertainers and athletes in the millions, and our teachers in mid- five figures. This disparity is despicable. Do I suggest teachers should be millionaires? No. But our economies of scale are deplorable. Our inner city schools have outdated textbooks, and, at times, substitute teachers who do not belong anywhere near children- and for that matter, unqualified teachers who should also not be near children.

It is easy to pick out certain minorities and say "look, they were successful, why can't they all be successful". This is logically questionable. THere are always exceptions to the rule. Many vietnamese boat women are prostitutes because they sold there bodies for the right to come to this country. Not all Jamaicans or Haitians have been successful. Korean groceries are shutting down left and right in New York City. The fact that some have been successful is not evidence that they have had equal opportunity.

I reject the argument outright that priviledge does not play a role in social ranking. We live in a country where even white woman are still not afforded an equal opportunity-they still, on average, get paid less than men for the same work. Why else would the president have signed a law last year creating penalties for this disparity? Why else would over 80% of all Fortune 500 CEO's be men? In our rascist society, and I am sorry you do not like this term, If a white man, white women, and black man are interviewing for the same job with the same qualifications, the white man is still much more likely to get the job, quotas notwithstanding.

I too can look around me, as you do in South FLorida. I can see the decrepit schools, the quality of life these ethnic children are born into-I too can see the crack being sold feet away from that child's doorway. While I am a proponent of picking one's self up by the bootstrap and working hard, I must acknowledge the disparity in the opportunity if I am to be honest with myself.

What do we need to do? It starts with the school systems. Pay the teachers more. Make sure the kids have new books. Education is everything, and is the ONLY reason I did not turn out to be a F****** rascist like my father.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

"Shall we discuss the successes of the Federally overseen US public school system next?"

Um...the Feds turned the public schools over to the states around the time Al-D claims that the bibles being removed caused problems. I've noticed you reference the public school systems on many occasions. Might I remind you that I was educated in U.S. public schools, as were my children? Are you suggesting that my dereliction is due to my education? If so, can *I* use that excuse too and sue someone? Can I blame a public education if my kids leave a dirty dish on the counter? Can I just throw out all this personal responsibility shit and blame the government?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 29, 2000.

Im going to chime in here. As a Caucasian native American  thats right, I was born in the United States therefore Im a native American  I have a suggestion Id like to share.

I refer you to Tony Brown. Author, producer, director, host of Tony Browns Journal (PBS). Those of you not familiar with this man & his show should make his acquaintance. Black American, entrepreneur, political conservative, Tony Brown wrote a book titled Black Lies, White Lies. Get your hands on a copy FS & anyone else interested in the subject of this thread. That should be everyone reading this. All five of you.

IMO, This is a landmark book. A no-holds barred look at the state of race in the nation. Brown speaks on the following groups (all words in quotes taken directly from the book):

1) The Talented Tenth. Those of you familiar with W.E.B. Du Bois know this group as the professional & intellectual black classes. The elitist Black oligarchy.

2) The BUM  Black Unaccountable Machine: The BUM leaders legitimately decry the oppression of the Black masses, but instead of doing something to alleviate that oppression, they endeavor mostly to enhance opportunities for the upper classes & liberal racists.

3) The Black Masses: Most ordinary Black people rarely question the legitimacy of their Black leaders & their White manipulatorsAnd so the Black elite maintains its position & control over the masses by failing them & blaming the failure on Whites...specifically Republicans.

4) The John the Baptist Brigade: the least visible & is all but unknown in the White community. We are modern-day Maroons, the revolutionaries who escaped the slave plantation only to return to attack it again & again, leading off new recruits to freedom each time.

Go buy this book!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

, If a white man, white women, and black man are interviewing for the same job with the same qualifications, the white man is still much more likely to get the job, quotas notwithstanding.

Really? Even if a black man is doing the hiring?

Um...the Feds turned the public schools over to the states around the time Al-D claims that the bibles being removed caused problems.

Amazing that there is still a need for the US Dept of Education then, is it not?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

Right again in picking out the assumptions in my arguments. I should have said if a white male is doing the hiring, which in a large majority of situations is still the case.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

"Amazing that there is still a need for the US Dept of Education then, is it not?"

Did you notice me blink an eye when the Dept of Education looked like it wouldn't be remediated in time last year? Even they're limping along, it seems. They provide a little in financial aid, etc. for college students who fit the bill. They're also a body to which folks in individual states can come when faced with unconstitutional practices in education within a state. This changeover, however, from federally implemented education to state implemented education occurred in the early 60's.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 29, 2000.

Every year surveys of world education ranking place US schools far behind other industrial nations, especially in areas of math, science, engineering, and the other hard sciences.

I seems to me that despite some folks getting a good education (due to family influences or personal responsability) most of our kids are faring badly.

I read somewhere that the average expenditure per student in the US was around $5,000 per student. I think we are getting robbed. Why cannot families take that five grand and send their kids to the school of their choosing? It would seem to me that if parents of only fifteen children would pool their resourses they would be able to educate their children with far better results.

For example:

15X $5,000 = $75,000. Rent a space in an idustrial park with room for 15 kids, $1000 per month @ 12 months = $12,000. Pay a teacher to educate these kids on a 15 to one ratio (rather than the 30-40 students to one teacher ratio common now) $40,000 ( a big salary boost in most areas). That would leave $23,000 for other things like books, PCs, etc.

Could somebody tell me why the current way re: BIG GOVT (whether state or federal) provides a better education than would my innovative less govt example?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

Oh yeah... Bingo,

I have read some of Brown's work, and I like what he has to say. Another interesting voice from the black community is Larry Elder.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

There WAS a woman, Unk...a black woman on the South Side of Chicago who started her own school. She became quite famous, wrote books, etc. [which I read], was asked by the President to head the Department of Education and turned down the job. Her school was the epitome of learning. She taught Latin and Shakespeare in the early grades and took in famous athletes who had failed miserably in school but were pushed ahead due to their athletic prowess. I just can't think of her name!!!!!

The funds of which you speak, however, don't come from the parents. These "per child" yearly totals include upkeep on the premises, salaries paid to teachers, lawn-keepers, janitors, lunchroom personnel, etc., not to mention supplies. Parental involvement was HEAVY, as I recall, which it was at the Montessorri school which two of my three attended, as well as the privately run Kindergarten/after- school care place that my three attended.

Some parents are just making enough money to support their families [like mine.] If FREE stuff is offered, the parents may/may not take advantage. Some refuse out of pride [like my folks], and some just have no interest [like my folks....(grin)] I tutored my three plus about 5 more in my home after school, but at the time I made enough money working 3/4 of a day to be able to AFFORD spending time with my kids and the kids of others. Other parents aren't in this position, and other parents don't have the education required to teach. MY mom got lost after 2nd grade math.

After I'd spent some time in business, Unk, having had three kids, completed University, etc., I decided to take a teaching position at the local Junior College. I taught there for 3 years. After the 3 years, I realized that many of these kids didn't have the basic logic skills necessary to see them through a curriculum in Computer Science. I took a break at that time to further MY education in the area of elementary education. My concentration was math/science, as that was all I knew. Since my background was basically all science, I had to take classes in music, history, art, and even P.E. to receive accreditation. I took those classes, loved them, and took several more in philosophy of education, teaching math in the elementary schools, teaching science in the elementary schools, etc. I even engaged in some student teaching. While student teaching, the regular teacher pointed out mistakes I'd made. The one I noticed most was, "NEVER turn your back on them." My student teaching was in an all-white, although lower-class public school. The kids LOVED me. One 7-year old even shared how she'd watched the Texas Chain Saw Massacres the night before. I could only wonder who would sit a 7-year old down to watch that movie.

I may go into education again, Unk, but I have no delusions about correcting society's ills in so doing.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 29, 2000.

Anita

Perhaps I was unclear. That five thousand dollar figure is already being spent, not one extra penny would be needed from parents.

And now off to the picnic I go,

Cheers!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

Yes, yes, yes Anita. If I remember correctly 60 Minutes did a piece on her some years ago. Then they went back to check on her students a decade or so later. These kids, by & large, became bright, successful, caring citizens. It was a remarkable program. A remarkable woman.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 29, 2000.

Unk:

Look again at where you received this information. The $5,000 is NOT spent without a child.

Bingo:

After exhaustive searching [to no avail], her name finally came to me as I told myself that I was tired of looking. Marva Collins Yes...she WAS honored by MANY T.V. documentaries. Her books and methods of teaching inspired me. If I recall correctly, she'd been a teacher in the "system" who grew tired of the red tape and began a school in her home for her children as well as some of the neighborhood children. The needs of the community outgrew the school in her home, so she moved to other locations as demand dictated. A similar situation occurred with the teacher who started the kindergarten/day-care/after-school program in my neighborhood. She tried to keep the price down, but the rent just kept going up, etc. Had either of these women had the $5,000/year that Unk thinks is just lying around for each child, they wouldn't have had so many problems.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 29, 2000.

Look again at where you received this information. The $5,000 is NOT spent without a child.

Anita, forgive me if I dont understand what the hell you are talking about.

$5,000 is the nationwide average spent PER child. It comes from your, and my, tax dollars. I do not think that this money is just lying around, I do think this money is being wasted on schools that do a shitty job of educating our kids. The fact that our schools rate low in comparison to other industrialized nations bears out my assertion that the schools are doing a shitty job. What I am proposing is to take the money being wasted in the public schools and give the parents the option of where and how that money will be spent on their childs education. It is called competition, competition leads to innovation, better products, and lower prices.

Then folks like Marva Collins would have access to the money she needed to do what she set out to do; give kids a better education than what they are getting in the public schools.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 29, 2000.

Unk, I agree with you the government is wasting our tax dollars on education. It's wasting it on, red tape, political handouts and jobs etc. For example, our small company spends 8% of revenues on overhead, while government contractors in same business spends 50%. Yes, 50%!.

Husband and I are very much in favor for public education to be administered by private enterprises (still payed by tax dollars, only administered by private businesses.) Out of that now wasted overhead, the private enterprise would make a good profit, and education would be tightly run with better competitive results.

-- (y@x.x), May 29, 2000.

Unk,

I've got my kids in a Catholic school which costs a little over 2k a piece, and their school's standardized scores are higher than the surrounding public schools'. Can you imagine what it would do to the public schools if each parent got FIVE thousand to do with as they will, instead of being forced to waste it in the system?

With five grand each kid in our school could get all new books, a new computer, as well as a bonus for the teacher, EVERY YEAR on just the money being spent now by the public school system. Somehow, public schools complain that they can't buy textbooks for the children. Where's all the money going?

Don't want the Klintonites "teaching" my kids,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

The public shool system really puts the govern in government. I de-program my children daily, I'd like to change that.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), May 30, 2000.

Frank, I know where the money is going. Public schools are mandated to streamline all disabled children and give them an equal opportunity to learn in a regular classroom. Many small rural districts in our state had their doors sued shut by parents with extremely limited children...the public school district is legally required to provide for EVERY need the child may have during the school day, including advanced nursing, special transportation, special equipment, etc. I know of one case where the school had to allocate a small building, rewire it, provide central heat and air, and build special furniture for a set of extremely developmentally delayed tripletts. The school bore the brunt of the cost.

Add to that the procedure called an Individualized Educational Program, or IEP, that any parent may ask for at any time for any perceived reason. The school system may also ask for an IEP meeting. A child under an IEP plan is normally assigned to the Special Education division of the school, even if that child attends all regular classes. Approximately 50% of the school children in our area are now taking Ritalin. ADHD is considered a reason for an IEP. The school system must pay for the specialized testing for each child considered for an IEP. An IEP procedure usually involves a doctor and at least one psychologist, a psychometrician to administer testing, and sometimes a specialist. The people don't work for free.

Failure to meet even one scholastic need of a child is an invitation to a lawsuit. This situation is not within the control of the public school system. The expense of these measures is the result of a good idea misused...as usual.

-- helen (b@t.s), May 30, 2000.

Sorry to butt in here, but...

Helen wrote, Approximately 50% of the school children in our area are now taking Ritalin.

I haven't reproduced nor do I have close friends who have either. I'm out of touch when it comes to kidstuff. So this is a serious look of shock combined with horror on my face.

Kids are really being drugged at this ratio? When I first heard about Ritalin use on kids being a problem I figured one or two kids out of thirty would be force fed the stuff. One out of two????

Please tell me this is a gross exagerration! Please?

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Bingo:

I'd be interested in learning where Helen got those statistics as well. I know of ONE boy that my daughter once dated who was given the drug, and I know of ONE boy [grandson of a co-worker] who was given the drug while he was living with his mom and step-dad, but who has been off the drug since living with his granddad.

Regarding welfare, here are a few more links to peruse. AFDC is actually the program that most folks consider welfare. The AFDC program was modified in 1996, I believe, to provide limited benefits to folks who were capable of work. TANF is a temporary benefit program.

The history of ADC and ADFC can be found in this essay written by a black feminist. While one may not appreciate her personal direction, one can certainly appreciate the research sources used.

History of Welfare Programs in the U.S.

AFDC statistics from 1995 [or where Future got his statistics]:

1995 Breakdown of AFDC recipients

Does AFDC encourage fathers to leave a home?

"Another set of myths surround the "incentives" that welfare supposedly brings. In March 1987, the General Accounting Office released a report that summarized more than one hundred studies of welfare since 1975. It found that "research does not support the view that welfare encourages two-parent family breakup" or that it significantly reduces the incentive to work.

Nor does welfare give single mothers an incentive to bear more children. AFDC families are not much larger than the national average. "

GAO study

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 30, 2000.

Bingo -- sorry, I got this from 2 different pharmacists, 5 student intern teachers, 4 school administrators at the ELEMENTARY school level, three school secretaries, 2 school nurses (they oversee the afternoon dose), 5 education/psychology doctorate-level professors, and gosh...35 regular teachers, 4 special education teachers, and 2 school-employed psychologists...oh, and 1 pediatric neurologist. No joke, I'm not making it up.

Paddling their wiggly little butts is abuse, ya know...

-- helen (b@t.s), May 30, 2000.

Thanks Helen. Sorry to go off topic people. This is blowin' my mind.

I'd set up a hubble-bubble (hookah) in each classroom before I'd force-feed Ritalin to these kids.

From the Drug InfoNet Home Page:

http://www.druginfonet.com/faq/faqrital.htm

Question: If ritalin is a stimulant, why does it "calm" hyperactive children?

Answer: Excellent question-no one knows for sure. Clearly, it affects some inhibitor site as well as an activator site. Where and how is not known.

Question: My grandson was recently placed on Ritalin. What could the long term affects of this drug be? Around my wife and I he was perfectly calm could sit and read to us, do first grade math, color, etc., for hours and even play catch. Now he seems very tired most of the time. When his parents used to show up he would misbehave frequently, until my wife or I asked him to behave like a nice young man and he would.

Answer: The question is whether his concentration is better at school with the drug or not. I would ask him, he will know. The dosage may need to be adjusted depending on his performance on the drug.

This is nuts! Yet another reason not to reproduce. As if I needed another one.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Helen,

You're very correct. The public school system DOES have to take care of all the handicapped kids, which cost more per student. This is a legitimate expense.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

Frank:

Are RC schools set up to accommodate the handicapped? I DO believe that a portion of your kid's school expense is being "carried" by the parish.

I remember as a kid my mom asking about my entry into a RC school. They wouldn't accept me because if they did, they'd have to accept the other rif-raf. [grin] Mom then tried a Lutheran School. Over and above the tuition, they wanted her to pledge a window.

When my own daughter attended an independent private school, the tuition was about $3,000/year, but increased with each grade. In addition, we were hit with yearly fund-raisers. They also received monies from alumni, as well as donations from local businesses. This was a school that required passing an entrance exam to get into pre- first [their Kindergarten.] They paid their teachers less than the public school system, but the teachers only had to deal with the "cream of the crop." At this school, my daughter's 1st grade teacher couldn't spell. She had a sign on the classroom wall that included a misspelled word and I inquired about it during Parent-Teacher Conference. She confessed then that she was a non-speller. I suggested that dictionaries helped in that regard.

Bingo: There's no doubt in my mind that 2 out of my 3 kids would have been screened for Attention Deficit Disorder. At a parent- teacher conference with my son's Montessorri teacher she just looked at me and said, "You're his mother? Just the THOUGHT of him exhausts me." He had a lot of energy and couldn't sit for long periods. ALL my kids had a lot of energy. I took my oldest to Norway with a harness on a leash. No kidding. She would have chased pigeons off the pier and into the fjords had I not. I watched my son crawl across the sand into the Atlantic on vacation one year. He just kept crawling [eventually swimming] out to sea. He was fairly annoyed when I scooped him up about 200-feet out.

I think the drug programs in the schools are much like the drug programs in the homes for the elderly. The staff doesn't want to deal with a free-thinking, high energy individual, so they "determine" that drugs are for THEIR benefit. Sometimes the families go along with this, and sometimes they don't. There's NO LAW that says a family MUST put their child on these drugs. Those who do it do it voluntarily.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 30, 2000.

What the hell has all of this mumbo-jumbo got to do with a 13 year- old black kid that shoots a white teacher in the head for asking him to leave class? Time to stop talking around the real problem, if you can. Turns out, this same 'kid' was showing off this piece to some friends 3 days before this shooting incident. I've got a C note that says the Grandfather did not register the gun. Unk, you are to be admired for your restraint in commenting about this incident. However, if we are not outraged over this then it will continue unabashed.

-- Willy (from@old.Philly), May 30, 2000.

Willy:

MY part of this "mumbo-jumbo" relates to the fact that I saw this same stuff happening every day 40 years ago without any press coverage. This is not a black on white crime. This is a punk on authority crime. This may be new to YOU, but it's sure not new to me.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 30, 2000.

I think back to my time in school & shudder. I self-medicated starting in 5th-grade. That's after going from public to private - getting tossed - back to public school.

I asked so many questions that I spent two full years with my desks turned facing the back walls of classrooms because the teachers couldn't deal with me. I feel sorry for them in that they weren't given the tools to do so.

I'm sure those teachers were grateful I got stoned most mornings before school. Didn't do me a hell of a lot of good though. I picture these kids sitting stoned - quiet & mellow with half their brains shutdown - it makes me sick!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 30, 2000.

Anita,

While I don't know about ALL RC schools, ours is NOT set up to take the handicapped, hence one would expect a lower cost to run the school.

There is an additional cost for non-parishoners, I think to the tune of about a grand. So in a sense they subsidise the rest of the kids. There also is the requirement on the part of each family to "volunteer??" ~18 hours per semester helping out at the school in some way(or you can pay your way out of it at $20/hr.((One thing my wife and I both do is give blood which counts for 5 hours a piece-- kinda sorta like a pound of flesh :-) ))) I wasn't thinking about the service requirement at the time I posted, but that does add up. For me, it's cheaper to just to pay it than show up there, but for some two parent working families, it may be a considerable expense.

Willy from Philly,

Ever go to Dalessandro's on Ridge Ave. for cheesesteaks? I miss that and my morning pretzel/coffee at the carts more than (almost) anything.

Bingo,

I know what you mean, it's a tough call.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 30, 2000.

I saw this same stuff happening every day 40 years ago without any press coverage.

Anita, I seriously doubt that sudents were blowing away their teachers every day 40 years ago.

Willy,

I brought up the fact that the kids was black not because I hate blacks, (which I do not) it was because I am convinced that the black community has a severe problem with absent fathers, which leads to kids without good role models who get in trouble. I believe that government policies, among other things, make the problem worse. Policies like paying kids who have kids, sending children to sub-par schools, afirmative action programs which imply that minorities are too stupid to succeed without special help, and, the undoubted worst offender is; the insane war on drugs.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 30, 2000.

Oh, Unk...you wouldn't believe how many helpful government employees have asked me if I need them to read a form for me and explain it to me...

-- helen (b@t.s), May 30, 2000.

Helen

Please do not pull my chain.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 30, 2000.

Unk

Yes SIR.

-- helen (b@t.s), May 30, 2000.

Helen: Finger...pull his FINGER. [It has something to do with old farts.]

Unk: It wasn't the teacher every day, and the weapon of choice wasn't necessarily a gun. Remember Blackboard Jungle? That movie was filmed in 1955. Did you think it was fiction?

Did you find those links useful?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 30, 2000.

Anita, I CAN'T! He's an elder male and I'm forbidden! (Our customs dictated that I get his permission to post adversarily to Andy Ray. Now I may never be allowed to pull his finger.) What a drag my culture is!

-- helen (b@t.s), May 30, 2000.

Helen,

I'm not!!! wanna sand rassle?

Bingo,

I did some of my best work early in the mornin' with my attitude adjusted,the teachers even agreed that some of the other students should consider joining me,as their creativity sucked : )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 30, 2000.

I am convinced that the African-American community will drag this country into the most hideous nightmare imaginable. I dont hate black people and Ive never been part of any organized group that promotes that mindset. Im just convinced that we are on a course of action that will have terrible consequences and this is why:

(1). In all of recorded history there has never been harmony between blacks and whites. What magic will be used to change this?

(2). Blacks, as a race, have not demonstrated the ability or the willingness to elevate themselves or take care of their own. Instead, they hate who they are and will do anything to escape from their own people when possible.

(3). The black people, as a group, feel so disenfranchised that to them there is no hope for better standing in the world community. They dont carry the same set of values that most of the rest of humanity embrace. Hell, whats a little murder or two when your life is a self perceived dead-end with no hope?

OK, bring on the screams of racist but before you do I suggest you examine your own true feelings and beliefs. If you are concerned about being PC, say nothing. Otherwise, I would be interested in your honest input.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 30, 2000.

Ra,

Thanks a lot! I was hoping to have a very serious cheesesteak discussion with Willy, but your post probably torpedoed the chance of that.

Oh yeah, I think Dalessandro's was on Henry not Ridge, my how the memory fades...

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 31, 2000.

Anita,

I scanned the links, and have conceded the point that Welfare does not insist that the father be absent from the home. And yes, I do remember The Blackboard Jungle, there have always been wild youths, it just seems to me that they are getting wilder. I also remain convinced that women who know that they can get govt money when they have kids out of wedlock are less likely to keep their legs shut.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 31, 2000.

Unk:

"it just seems to me that they are getting wilder. I also remain convinced that women who know that they can get govt money when they have kids out of wedlock are less likely to keep their legs shut."

Personally, Unk, I think that as we grow tamer, EVERYONE looks wilder. SO had a job at a University campus last summer. He remarked on how the girls looked to be about 13 to him. As we get older, everyone else looks YOUNGER, too! Regarding that govt money, if it were anywhere close to the amount necessary to raise a child these days, I'd agree. 2.6 children versus 2.4 of non-welfare recipients? Not exactly a staggering statistical difference.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 31, 2000.

capnfun -- sorry, I have to paint the house and mow the back forty today -- but thanks. :)

Ra -- I absolutely disagree with your assessment of the black community.

-- helen (b@t.s), May 31, 2000.

HelenI respect your viewpoints and appreciate the civil input. To be honest I am surprised that anyone responded.thanks.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 31, 2000.

OK, I'll bite.

In all of recorded history there has never been harmony between blacks and whites.

OK Ra,

You want to see some harmony between blacks and whites? Fix me up with Vanessa Williams and I'll show ya some frickin harmony! And don't worry about Mrs D, she has already told me that I could go for it should Vanessa find herself smitten by the Unk. Of course she was polishing the .357 at the time she said it, but I think she meant it.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 01, 2000.

Well Unk, you might find that Rick Fox is a better shooter at home than on the court.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 01, 2000.