I have never been in battle. I have never lived thru an enormous atrocity, either human or natural. My question is: if you were in a situation of imminent death, such as on the battle field, would your faith become stronger, weaker or irrelevant? How do you know?

Similarly, if you endured atrocious conditions for years on end; conditions where the worst human cruelty prevailed (the Bataan death march, Hitler's concentration camps, Pol Pot's killing fields, etc ad infinitum)---would your faith be strengthened or weakened? Most of us don't know but there may be some here who have survived something dreadful and I sure would appreciate hearing how it has affected your faith.

I'm 62, WWII was the distant background of my early childhood. Except for air-raid alerts and gas rationing there was no impact on my suburban NJ life that I was aware of. My dad was exempt because he was an engineer. As little boys, we actually played "war" and I loved to see movies where planes got in dogfights.

At the end of the war, our regular Pastor returned from the Army where he had been a Chaplain. Everyone was excited. He was a neat guy. His son was in my first grade class. I remember him preaching the first time after his return. One bright morning, a few months later, he walked down the middle of the railroad track right into a speeding steam locomotive. A young man of faith takes his life in this gruesome way. It had to be a statement. My guess is that he had seen such horrible things in the war that his faith was broken totally. But who knows, maybe he had marital problems; maybe he was an achoholic. I have always wondered.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 26, 2000

Answers

I wouldn't even speculate as to how I would react under the hypotheticals you laid out, Lars. I'm fortunate to have not experienced anything in the way of atrocity.

As to WWII, my father served. He killed himself as well. Difference between he & the chaplain is my father rotted away from the inside out over a period of 45 years. Booze will do that to you.

Powerful story Lars.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 26, 2000.

i have been in quite a few [shoulda been dead] experiences. have had miraculous interventions.thank GOD suicide isn,t the un- pardonable sin.JESUS said in MATHEW ,CHAPTER 3-I believe thats it. anyhow HE [GOD incarnate]JESUS 'SAID>ALL MANNER OF SIN IS FORGIVABLE EXCEPT FOR 1 ONLY.[BLASPHEMING THE HOLY GHOST]WHEN JESUS was going around healing,blessing,loving sinners[we all are] the RELIGIOUS hypocrites said'he[jesus] was doing the miracles,by the power of satan.---that,s blasphemy.-or calling GOD a liar.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 26, 2000.

Lars: Very thought provoking post. What comes to my mind is those children at Columbine. They were FACED with a choice, either denounce God or DIE... As a young person, I certainly dont even want to think of what I would do, and even as a somewhat oldster.

I wished I had only 1/2 of the FAITH those young folks had.

In my entire 38 years, that was the absolute WORST thing I ever saw and I watched the televised funeral services. Their deaths served a true purpose for alot of young people and true Witnesses THEY were.

Nice post but sad as well.

thanks Lars, as I have often wondered 'what' I would do, but never really answering myself.

sumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 26, 2000.

Lars-

Suburban New Jersey? Whereabout? That was my haunt as a child.

As to the question, the answer is unknowable. I have been fortunate that the only torture I have had to survive was self-inflicted. When I was raised out of the abyss of drug abuse, you can be sure my faith deepened-I could not stop through any strength of my own-and on those days I lack faith, I think of this fact.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 26, 2000.

I have no concept either Lars. Like you, I only have inklings. Over twenty-some years ago I was involved with a Viet Nam vet for several years. I didn't then and haven't since seen anyone in so much mental pain and confusion. He came back from the war and went thru the local police academy and became a policeman. That is how I met him, as he was also the security guard at my apt complex. We used to have long philosophical talks after midnight, about the meaning of life and our purpose on earth and he would always say "you cannot understand what I went through and the things that I saw" and went on to describe what I considered to be some of the heights of inhumanity to human beings because "they were the other side". He said their (the Vietnamese) culture was different and he had to change the way he looked at life with the enemy because they placed such a low value on it. He talked about them using the children as weapons, attaching enemy heads to outpost fences to deter them from entering and on and on about some of the most hideous things I had ever heard then and since (with the exception of the Holocaust). This man's soul could not be comforted or relieved of any responsiblity for his actions during the war (what they were he could never enunciate to me), though it was years after his discharge. I remain friends with him, though at a much greater distance. He still does not understand the whys and wherefores of Viet Nam and neither do I. However, he must live with his actions every day of his life. Fortunately, my friend still lives. As to the war, or any war, I still wonder myself.

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), May 26, 2000.

can you imagine the 1st christians,being thrown to lion,s and gored by mad bull,s'set on fire as a torch'for ceasar,seeing there children devoured by starving dogs.but yet refusing to deny CHRIST. WHAT KINDa FAITH IS THAT?AND IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY,IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES,AFRICA,CHINA.how many have been martyred,since the church was born???won,t it be great,when HE comes back'& srtaightens it all out.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 26, 2000.

AL-D

Get a grip already. If your purport to repeat biblical history, please give references. Otherwise, it is just conjecture based on hearsay. Please provide the sources if you wish to remain credible. Regards= AB

-- A (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), May 26, 2000.

AB,have you read''fox,s book of martyr,s'' have you heard of the inquisition,s? heck there,s even websites--asking people to pray--for persecuted believer,s worldwide.did you know'thatall the apostles'we,re killed,except john--who wrote the book of revelation,s. he died in exile.---satan is still'trying to kill the MESSAGE OF GODS LOVE.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 27, 2000.

AL-D

Apparently you were not clear on my last post. Please provide definite links as to your information for research purposes. NOT generalizations. If you wish to post info, definitive biblical citations are needed. Can you provide those or are you shooting from the hip. Put up or shut up.

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), May 27, 2000.

Lars,

This may sound junky but bear with me. Faith during war is mostly like faith in other times of crisises. If you're onboard you got it all the time and if you don't you might show up like for the annual easter services only when the bullets start getting too close.

There may be a few conversions but most of us only check in when in peril and few remeber to say thanks.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 27, 2000.

Similarly, if you endured atrocious conditions for years on end; conditions where the worst human cruelty prevailed (the Bataan death march, Hitler's concentration camps, Pol Pot's killing fields, etc ad infinitum)---would your faith be strengthened or weakened? Most of us don't know but there may be some here who have survived something dreadful and I sure would appreciate hearing how it has affected your faith.

the Bataan death march,was not the end of the heel the men went through, they suffered 31/2 years in Japanese POW camps after words. I know, my Dad went through it. He has written a small book about it, I am trying to get him to put it on line. It wasn't until the last decade where a support group at the VA allowed him to understand him to talk about it that he got help working through it.

As a child I expresses the fact that I hated all "Japs" because of what they did to him, and he sat me down and explained why I should not, why he did not. My father does not understnd who peopl ein this country are upset over the internment camps for Japanese citizens yet ignore the torture and hell that all of out people went through in their torture camps. If people knew of the atrosities of the Japanese during the war they would understand why dropping the two nuclear bombs was necessary to stop the war, why it was even the best thing for the Japanese people themselves. The United States Government agreed to cover up the atrocities of the Japanese as part of the deal for the surrender of Japan. It is time the truth came to light about what happened. There are still a good amount of those who went through it left living, although time is not on our side if we want the truth to come out.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 27, 2000.