We've discussed many facets of religious faiths in other threads, but some of us have read the philosophies of the East and noticed that some of various species simply seem to be BORN with knowledge that it takes others years to learn. One possible explanation for the young having the knowledge of the old is that the party has experienced similar experiences in a previous life.

There are many schools of thought on reincarnation, many of which aren't inconsistent with the teachings of "eternal life" in Christianity. It's thought by those in the East that people who die before they reach a certain age are quickly reincarnated, while those who die at an old age spend their time in reflection before making a decision on when/whether to move on to another body.

I'll share MY goofy story so there's less embarrassment by those who think this phenomenon possible. My brother-in-law [with whom I was quite close] died at age 30 of a cerebral aneurysm during his morning shower. This was my first experience of the death of a loved one, and one can assess that my experience that followed was customary for one in the grieving process. That's fine. All views are welcome.

As I sat at the wake, I found myself "telling" Greg [inside my head] that I missed him, etc. I heard a voice [inside my head again] say, "Don't worry about it. I see everything you're seeing." I asked, "How?" The voice said, "I'm right here inside you." "Inside me?" "Yes."

I didn't know I was pregnant, but I was. I pretty much forgot about the incident at the wake [chaulking it up to grief] when my new daughter started to cry inbetween feedings one night. She was laying atop my dresser in my bedroom in one of those small carry-all sleeping deals. It was easier to keep her in the bedroom the first few months so I wouldn't have to go so far to nurse. I turned the radio on [beside her], but nothing seemed to help until I hit a station playing something by the Four Tops [Greg's favorite group.] She immediately calmed and fell back asleep.

Of course I never told her I thought she was a reincarnation of her Uncle Greg. He died before she even knew her. However, she DID jump out of the womb wiser from the beginning than her older sibling.

What are YOUR thoughts on reincarnation? Fact, or fiction?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000

Answers

Cool thread Anita.

-- Maya (Maya@eck.ist), May 22, 2000.

GOD said,man dies 1 time then the judgment. demons can mimic the dead. reincarnation is demonic. worship cows & rats,while your starving---bong the gong. meditate til satan shows up.--hey you get what your lookin-for. you don,t want JESUS? --GOD will give over to a reprobate-mind. JESUS IS RISEN---all other religions are dead. play with evil-long enough, & you open a door 'that you,ll wish you never opened.---idol worship-is alive & well in u.s.a. *a sign of the TIMES*--DON,T BE DECIEVED.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

Anita,

I've always found it curious that the most prominent religion that believes in reincarnation is Hinduism. Given the quality of life of most Indians, I wonder if the hope of reincarnation into a better life is what helps them make it through this one?

Al, it was little hard to read, but I take it you're against the idea of reincarnation :^)

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

My proof-reading sure sucks. She died before she even knew HER [in reference to her UNCLE?] HIM...HIM...HIM...

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

"Given the quality of life of most Indians, I wonder if the hope of reincarnation into a better life is what helps them make it through this one?"

Good point, Jim, but couldn't one say the same about the religions of the west...in that it helps one make it through this one, I mean.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Anita,

Actually, you're quite correct - a final reward is the point of all religions. The difference in Hinduism is that you get many chances to get it right before you get your final reward and you never really go to an eternal hell. With Christianity, you've got one shot at doing it right. If you succeed, it's heaven for eternity. If not, it's straight down to Al's boiling lava lake.

Huge difference in outlook there. Must have been some cultural influence in all this.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

no mr,cooke---simplY GODS WORD.--WATCH-OUT don,t step on that roach-- could be ol uncle--tryin to get it right. no--sarcasm-intended,but c,mon--NO.1 man has no part in salvation. the sin-problem has been solved.--the gift of eternal-life is in a person--none other than GOD-IN CHRIST. JESUS SAID ''I AM THE RESURECTION'' religion saY,s WORK .---GOD say,s DONE. simply believe--then you recieve. *homies,when i get to glory--i ain,t comin back to this mess*

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

Some days I believe I am just a mass of flesh and bones, and when I do it is all over-no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation-the fitting nihisistic end. Other days I believe I have lived many past lives. Still other days I believe that there are multiple incarnations-not necessarily in a "chronological" order-I am not successively evolving to a higher state-but that I have already experienced the highest state of the soul and incarnate when I again want to experience physicality,

This last believe is why I was intially attracted to what Walsch was writing-I have experienced so much deja vu in this lifetime that I am almost convinced I have lived this same exact life before-Those who have read my previous posts over the last few months know that part of my core belief system(which of course is subject to change!) is that all points in "time" exist simultaneously.

One thing is for sure-I am still open to suggestions. I believe in the magic of the spirit, as I have glimpsed the ultimate reality of God and it is fantastic-I see it in the profound AND the profane. It is all beauty to me.

I am not sure I have or will be reincarnated, but I am sure that all the books I have ever read and all the people I have ever met, have yet to explain the complete and wonderous thing called life and have yet to explain the wonderful thing called the soul.

After all, who IS the thinker of the thoughts?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 22, 2000.

I have absolutely no sense of having ever lived before. Does anyone here think they had a past life (and no fair saying you were Cleopatra, Napoleon, etc)?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 22, 2000.

Jim:

No, it is a difference between a cyclic view of life and a linear view. If you believe it is cyclic you have one; if you believe it is linear, you have the other.

For me, it is beer time and then sleep; too much flying.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

there is no salvation--without A SAVIOUR.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

Lars:

I've never had a SENSE of having lived a previous life, yet I HAVE had different thoughts from others since childhood. As Hawk and I discussed in one of the Conversations with God threads, this material was NEVER new to me.

I was the odd-bird in my family as well. When I was grown, my father and I visited an aquarium. We stood before the tank with the [I thought the name was Mantese, but can't find that one in the dictionary] aquatic mammal that is oftentimes damaged in Florida waters by boaters. My dad said, "Strange looking creature." I said, "I bet he's saying the same about you." My dad then looked at me and said, "You were ALWAYS different. I sometimes thought you were an alien who'd come to our family to provide a different point of view."

My dad and I had always had a "special" relationship. Personally, I think it was HIS genes that made me "different", but if HE couldn't recognize his own genes in me, what blinded him?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Z:

The cold beer idea sounds good since it was about 100 degrees here today. My corn is starting to grow good though :^) Now all I have to do is worry about the coup in Fiji and see if affects my travel plans. Who knows, I may get to find out about that linear vs cyclic theory sooner than I thought.

I've also never had a feeling of living a past life. Heck, most of the time I have a hard enough time knowing what I'm doing in this life. I have had, on occasions, an inkling of understanding some situation in history more than I should have been able to by what I'd read. Could be many explanations for this though so I don't think it qualifies in the past life experiences.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

Anita---

I think the critter is a manatee (sea cow). Have you ever had memories or dreams of a past life? Have you ever had deja vu when visiting a place that you have never been to before? Have you ever been regressed ("run a life")?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 23, 2000.

Lars:

Thanks for the sea cow. [I KNEW that!].

I think we've all had the deja vu experiences. Nah...I've never attempted to get into past lives or even considered them beyond the wake [and following] experiences. It's simply another possibility, IMO, and one that does a much better job of explaining maturity beyond one's years [even when one has been raised in the same way by the same parents, etc.]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

Manatee.

-- Sam (Wtrmkr52@aol.com), May 23, 2000.

In hope of the curious, pushing the envelope of knowledge a bit
I wish to point out that REINCARNATION was a part of the
Christian Doctrine until it was decided to expunge it from the
Bible and all teachings at the Synod of the Council of Nicea
(around 553 A.D.from memory)
(Strangely enough, the Pope was banned from attending this Synod
From that date nearly all mentions of it were removed, a few were still evident in the early King james versions of the bible
The Catholic church decided on our behalf that it was better to
repent now, rather than do it over several incarnations.
Seek and ye shall find!!!!!!

-- Scarlet Breasted (scarletbreasted@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" -- Hebrews 9:27.

That pretty much settles the issue, far as I'm concerned.

One good thing about believing the Bible, is that it removes a lot of unnecessary questions in life. It brings up some more, surely, but they make for good subjects for study.

-- Chicken Little (panic@isover.with), May 23, 2000.

"but some of us have read the philosophies of the East and noticed that some of various species simply seem to be BORN with knowledge that it takes others years to learn."

SPECIES?!? Are you trying to say that those born in the near, middle and far east aren't human?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 23, 2000.

Anita, there's a philosophy on this that has a "kinda-sorta- scientific" (you heard this term here first) basis that I've found fascinating. It goes like this:

If we try to go back to the beginning of existence, whether we envision a creator or not, we're always left with: "Well, what happened before that?" So the assumption here is that existence is eternal. The next premise is that all matter within existence never disappears. It just changes in different ways, i.e., takes up different spatial positions, combines with other matter, changes from liqiud to solid to gas, etc.

Ok -- existence is eternal, and throughout all of time, from the infinite past to the infinite future, changes are taking place within existence. In fact, since time stretches out to infinity, then every single possible reorganization, permutation, etc. of matter will have had to occur. Not only that, it will have had to occur and keep occurring an infinite number of times.

The implication here, is that, at some point in the distant future, the precise structure and relationship of matter in existence right now will occur again. And again, and again... And this implies that the whole sequence of events (perhaps throughout the whole universe, but not necessarily) that constitute the span of the existence of the earth will have to occur again, at some point -- in precisely the same chronological order.

And this means that we'll be around and live our lives over again. And over, and over, and over...

Now, if you think about it, you could come up with some twists that are even more interesting. For instance, our consciousness -- if it's some sort of energy -- will be matched with other bodies, and we'll experience other lives as well. In fact we'll live every other possible life that has ever existed or ever could exist. And over and over and over...

You know, Woody Allen briefly referred to this idea once in a movie. He observed, "But if this is true, it means I'll have to sit through the Ice Capades again."

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

Tarzan:

"SPECIES?!? Are you trying to say that those born in the near, middle and far east aren't human?"

Lol. No, I'm not. The concept of reincarnation that I've had didn't extend beyond humans [at least not in my imagination.] For instance, I don't buy into coming back as a cockroach. However, Bingo recently said something about one of his dogs being much wiser than the other, so I didn't want to limit the conversation to humans.

Eve: Interesting thoughts. I read a few of the conversations with Walsch [on his site], and an old man was worried that the philosophy didn't include the ability to see his wife again after his death. I think he said she was already dead, and he looked forward to being together with her again. Walsch assured the old man he would see his wife. When I think about that, I have to wonder what happens to folks who have had multiple relationships on earth. Take my ex-FIL, for instance. His first wife died after they had 3 children. He married again. His second wife died about 7 years ago. He married again. Are three women waiting for the same man? I have a problem picturing a situation where relationships from earth can continue in another realm for this reason.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

She tells a tale of sister and brother.

How came she through the door,

With knowledge of that time before?

And a claim from there, upon me, her lover.

-

The tale is worth the searching for belief.

Perhaps a dying, unexpelled breath

Was held, through the journey of death,

And carried the memory of laughter, of grief.

-

That ancient remnant of human air

Once here, was never lost,

But lingers, like a whisper in the frost,

Clinging as crystals in her hair

-

And so the memory lets her recognize

The once-before sister and brother,

And I suppose, the always-forever lover.

How else to explain, my memory of her eyes.

----------------------------------

I believe reincarnation is romantically attractive. (like so much of religion) But it doesn't work for me beyond that. I do, however believe in "genetic memory", which could explain the phenomena of repeated migration patterns and such.

I too, have felt the illusive call of other memories. My motto through life could be, "I have always been homesick for places I have never seen"

-------------------------------------------

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), May 23, 2000.

Anita-

I figured you weren't getting at anything evil, but I wanted to needle you anyway.

I personally don't believe in reincarnation, but as an atheist, I also don't believe in a soul or any kind of an afterlife. I've never seen anything that would change my mind.

I do have a friend who claimed that her nephew was a reincarnated German person. She said that at a very young age, around 3, he started using German words in conversations and even sang German songs. Everyone was very excited, until it was discovered that his English nanny was studying German during the day. She would listen to German language tapes and sing and speak along while doing chores around the house, and she would take him places with her where they were likely to meet German speakers. She even watched German movies and programs. The parents were disappointed that their son wasn't some sort of latter day Bridie Murphy, but I think it's incredible that a kid that young could soak up so much of the language in such a casual fashion.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 23, 2000.

Chicken:

One reason why I said that some reincarnation philosophies weren't inconsistent with Christianity is that some don't believe that death occurs when the spirit moves from the shell. [We refer to our bodies as shells around here. I always thought of mine as the lower-priced, high efficiency model, not as attractive as a cadillac, but requiring little maintenance to keep in shape, and serving me well through the bumps of life.]

This belief that death [as a final end] doesn't occur when the spirit moves from the shell is consistent with thoughts of rapture, where I believe it's stated that final judgment occurs. Your knowledge of scripture is certainly better than mine, but I DO believe rapture included souls who had departed long ago as well as those who have yet to depart. Recycling makes some sense, even if only to eliminate congestion in the "waiting room." [grin]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

I've not much time so...

I've considered this subject for a long time. I read the book Many Lives, Many Masters which details notes taken by a hypnotist when he had a patient going through past lives regression. Very interesting.

In more recent times, however, I have considered another alternative to my questions. Is it possible that our DNA is the key? (of course it is, but...)

The book detailed many sites and situations that the patient would have no way of knowing from meal preparation, physical layouts... I dunno, can't remember (s..t)..

Anyway, the details she remembered, and "instructions" for the prodigy could be passed in the DNA. This could give way to "memories of past lives" as well as why a child of three can speak German.

I haven't settled on my philosophies I've carried the "unified", "master mind"-set for a long time. I do not know how reincarnation may fit into the Conversations with God which I am (still) reading, the Choprah lessons, and my Christian upbringing... none of which I've studied enough to address intelligently. So...

Just for thought...

-- keep the faith... (booann77@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

IMO, Reincarnation must include the Law of Karma, which is best summed up as the law of cause & effect, action & reaction. I look at it as a great big tote board which tracks my thoughts, words & actions, tallying pluses and minuses as necessary. Who runs this tote board? Good question. I dont know.

The goal is freedom from cause & effect, return to the Causeless, realization of the souls oneness in God.

My understanding is all desires must be fulfilled or relieved through right action. Hence one should learn discrimination in all things. Learn the difference between needs & wants. Then set about to reduce those wants through simple living, meditation, introspection.

If I had a reliable, accurate way of learning about my past lives today I would use it. I dont know of one so I dont give the whole thing much thought. My sense of it is when I become sufficiently evolved this knowledge will be available for me to use to further my goal of breaking the cycle of birth & death.

As to why I choose to buy into the karma/reincarnation explanation, well, thats tough to articulate without writing an opus of which Flint could be proud. Ill have a bit of free time late this afternoon. Ill try to communicate my decision-making process then.

BTW Anita, your story blew me away! Ive had similar incidents related to me. You never cease to amaze me girl.

What are YOUR thoughts on reincarnation? Fact, or fiction? I am not so bold as to rule out either possibility.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 23, 2000.

Can the belief in an afterlife and/or God be explained as nothing more than a natural genetic coding within the brain which serves as a survival mechanism for the human species? I listened to a very interesting interview once with an author who suggests this is in fact the basis for human's "spirituality". Actually he made a very compelling argument that a portion of the brain is "hard-wired" to perceive a spiritual reality. As far as I'm concerned, this made as much, if not more, sense to me than anything else I've heard regarding people's religeous/spiritual beliefs.

I found the author's website. For an explanation of what I'm trying to describe you might be interested in reading the premise behind his idea...

http://www.godpart.com/prem ise.html

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

Hey CD I mentioned Matthew Alper right here on this forum just the other day. Art Bell interviewed him several times. Gotta tell ya he made good sense. Too bad Art removed his archived shows from the 'net. Damn I miss that man!

Of course, if I found out Alper's hypothesis is correct, I'd probably dive off a very tall structure. And if al-d is correct I'll sizzle. Here's rooting against both of them...

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 23, 2000.

That's quite the coincidence Bingo. Yes, he made a lot of sense to me also. I just read some reviews of his book at Amazon. If you are interested...

Editorial and customer reviews

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

Interesting CD. I have not read this book (by Alper) but my immediate reaction is...

Looking at the premise and the reviews, a lot of people seemed to like this book. I think the premise is frightening. It makes sense, but I don't want to believe it. Suppose he's correct; we are now thrown back on "anxiety" again, to which we must, once again, adapt.

On the other hand, I can't help but like the part that diss'es organized religion and dogmatism, since I dislike them anyway. To me the essence of organized religion is "being right." This IS one of humanity's (and the ego's) more lamentable tools for survival. Now that we've evolved more, many people are finding they can survive just fine and "being right" is just a certain modality of thinking, not an absolute reality.

I like to believe that spirituality moves beyond "being right." But maybe spirituality is a more subtle form of being right, and so maybe we *can't* get away from wanting to be right, because it is hard-wired into us just because we can't bear facing our death. So all we are is deluded? What is to celebrate about this???

Maybe I should read the book.... or have a beer.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 23, 2000.

hi debbie,check out what the author'of eternal-life said. jesus said,ye must be born again'' but what does that mean,it simply means=unregenerate humans .are alive physically'but dead spiritually.the moment you recieve jesus as LORD & SAVIOUR=you are born-again'he said I AM the resurectin & the life[what life?]=eternal- life.you don,t have to get born again & again & again & again. 1 time [thru christ] is enough.then home to heaven & eternal joy.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 23, 2000.

al-d I have had this experience twice but interpreted it a little differently than you do! - No I didn't dismiss it at all but to me it is part of a larger spiritual picture. As always, I seem to be getting off the topic of the thread. But thank you for your thoughts.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 23, 2000.

So are we all deluded? Good question Debbie! You've raised some good points. It would be interesting to read how the author would respond to your post. You wrote:Suppose he's correct; we are now thrown back on "anxiety" again, to which we must, once again, adapt. Perhaps you've already answered that when you said "Now that we've evolved more, many people are finding they can survive just fine..." I dunno. Good food for thought though.

Think I'll grab a beer myself...

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

CD:

Interesting read at the link you provided. I think it's quite possible [and even probable] that humans [in general] have a pre- coded ability to discern spiritual thoughts. I think this forum is an example of humans [in general] having the ability to discern thoughts far stranger than the spiritual. Beyond that, however, the author discusses HIS explanation of WHY this ability exists. I don't see how he got to B from A.

Bingo:

I had hoped that by the time I did my shopping, etc., you would have presented your thoughts on Karma. Just to stimulate some thoughts on this one, I'll start with mine:

I'm not at all convinced that a life of simplicity and meditation does anything to improve Karma [in and of themselves.] The point of both is to eliminate distractions. If distractions exist, they should be eliminated, but once a life is fairly simple and one has mastered the ability to clear the mind, the meditation really does nothing to further one's Karmal "points." The human mind has an excellent recall system. If one has engaged in an experience [let's take drugs like marijuana and psilocybin as examples], the mind remembers the sensation produced by the experience and one doesn't really need to continue in the practice to experience the same influence. One only needs to RECALL the experience.

This is already getting longer than I'd hoped, so I'll attempt to be more concise in the remainder. I don't think a necessarily conscious effort need be applied to improve one's Karma. I think this is where the yogis have it all wrong. They sit all day meditating to improve themselves so that THEY may reach Nirvana, but their concentration is on the goal rather than the process. I think the process IS the important part. The goal of Nirvana, Ever- lasting Life, Rapture, etc. is THERE, but I'm amazed at the desires to speed the process, which is what *I* think improves one's Karma.

Life is so damn interesting that I don't understand why ANYONE would want to rush toward the finish line. It's by LIVING your faith that one's Karma is furthered. It's by LIVING one's faith that eternal life is obtained. Meditation, bible study, whatever helps one maintain focus in their belief system is simply a TOOL. These activities do nothing to create the end product. LIVING, interacting, sharing acts of kindness, loving the process, etc. are where I see Karma furthered.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

FS: (snip)-I have experienced so much deja vu in this lifetime that I am almost convinced I have lived this same exact life before-Those who have read my previous posts over the last few months know that part of my core belief system(which of course is subject to change!) is that all points in "time" exist simultaneously.

Dij` vu experiences were probably some of the first clues I had as a kid that theres something more going on in this life than eat, sleep, work, play. These experiences are frustrating to me because  (a) they occur so frequently; (b) rarely am I able to grasp the experience in its entirety until the present-time event has passed. They also leave me with a sense that I was afforded a brief glimpse through the veil of Maya/cosmic delusion. Quite energizing!

As to all points in time existing simultaneously  The eminent theoretical physicist Michio Kaku agrees. He theorizes time forks whenever the threat of paradox looms. I cant begin to do this justice, FS. Dr. Kaku is brilliant & as did Carl Sagan, is able to communicate difficult concepts to the layman with remarkable clarity.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Anita: (snip) My dad and I had always had a "special" relationship. Personally, I think it was HIS genes that made me "different", but if HE couldn't recognize his own genes in me, what blinded him? 

This is an area that puzzled me quite early on. Why was I so unlike everyone else in my family, and outside it for that matter. I dont have webbed feet or anything like that. I refer to thought processes & results. My natural tendency is to think as you stated in your referenced conversation about the manatee, Anita. Your response would have been my response.

My thought processes produce unusual results. That is, I generally receive looks of puzzlement from folks after stating many an opinion. I dont refer to the deeper subjects such as we address on threads such as this. I expect my opinions on the deeper topicsto be, by & large, dismissed as crackpot. It is the everyday chit-chat such as that with your dad that reveals my unusual nature to me & those with whom I come in contact.

I believe this is a combination of receiving stimuli differently, unusual capabilities regarding sensory receptors, strong intuitive sense, a conscience which never sleeps.

But the crux of the matter is, Where do these characteristics find there genesis within me? This is where the theories of karma/reincarnation come into play.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Eve,

Your 'kinda-sorta' scientific premise is quite possible, IMO.

1. If this were the state of affairs, does our behavior carry consequence over the course of lifetimes? Do our thoughts, words, deeds matter beyond the present incarnation?

2. Given eve's scenario, what role does conscience play in how we conduct ourselves?

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Bingo:

"But the crux of the matter is, Where do these characteristics find there genesis within me? This is where the theories of karma/reincarnation come into play."

Are you asking WHERE, or are you asking WHY? If/WHEN? DNA research moves along as I suspect it will, I think your question of WHERE will be answered. The question of WHY may be answered as well, in that just as some of the same family receive superior genes related to ocular vision, some of the same family may receive superior genes related to spiritual vision.

If one could prove that there exists a genetic marker that improves one's spiritual awareness, one would also be required to look at what one does with this awareness. The marker could/would be associated with any heightened spiritual [6th sense] ability/awareness beyond the norm in combination with markers for other traits. [Have I lost you yet?]

Consider the fictional character, Carrie. Her mother obviously had a genetic marker that led to her obsession with Christianity and good versus evil. Carrie inherited this marker from her mother, but other gene markers directed her activities to telekinesis. In both instances, the activities were apparently estranged from logical thought processes.

I'm still waiting for YOUR thoughts on Karma.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

keep the faith: (snip) the details she remembered, and "instructions" for the prodigy could be passed in the DNA. This could give way to "memories of past lives" as well as why a child of three can speak German.

Im currently reading a book written by Terence McKenna by the name of True Hallucinations. In it he relates his experiences in the Amazon & elsewhere using Stropharia cubensis - mushrooms containing psilocybin, a psychoactive agent. He & his brother Dennis hypothesized that in fact our DNA does carry the key, as you put it. Terence believed (deceased 4/3/200) we could go so far as to change our DNA purposefully in order to evolve. Heady stuff! (No pun intended)

The double-helix holds the answers to many questions. Anyone see the movie Mission to Mars? DNA was the key in that movie.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Bongo,

I'm going to swerve even further off your beaten path. Your conscience question reminded me of our wonderful old dog who passed at the end of the year. We used to have hot & cold running kids around here. Peanut butter & jelly sandwiches were often abandoned in strange places, for adventures of more allure. One evening, we'd had some friends drop over, and I think we spontaneously headed out the door for a hike. When we returned to the house, our retriever was sitting quivering beside the coffee table. A half eaten hot dog had been discarded hours before, and the beasty knew it wasn't his territory - but imagine the moral dilemma! Poor thing, he looked like a 'basket case', it was not the only time something like that happened. He seemed to have a very strong concsience, and great sensitivity for others needs.

So now I'll slip further into the animal stories. We lost a foreign family about ten years ago on a treacherous beach. They were posing for pictures, when one of the beautiful waves pulled them out to sea. To make a long story short, one factor has almost haunted me. I know the rescue folks who were on the scene, they told me that a sea lion pushed the boys body into shore {unfortunately, it was too late}.

For the third curious tale...my better half told me of finding a dead racoon on the road home one evening. He tossed the carcass in the back of the truck, figuring he would do something about in the morning. In the middle of the night, he was awakened by a terrible racket coming from the outside. A group of racoons had come to retrieve the body from the truck.

Now, do we live in the misdst of other 'nations'? Are we the only ones with a 'conscience'?

{Sorry, no answers - only more questions}

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

Anita, have you checked your hotmail account in the last 15 hours?

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Bingo:

I'm supposed to CHECK that account?

Flora:

Yes, indeed. The animals to which we refer as "lower" oftentimes exhibit more sense than we. I'd cite some examples I've seen, but I have this awful fear they came from "Charlotte's Web."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

{Mornin' 'nita,

Didn't mean to hijack your thread. I just looked & saw that it may have been better posted on al,s CATS&RATZ! Funny day when we're all in the same mindscape.}

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

Bingo1... possibly the ability to "alter DNA" would come from stimulation to and from our subconscious minds. It is possible to think one's blood pressure down, using "both" minds. The power of the mind and spirit to effect things both externally and internally is a very important piece of this puzzle I think.

Actually, I just ordered a stop smoking cassette that's supposed to operate on this very premise... i.e. plant seeds in subconcious mind and let them grow. I'll be on vacation for two weeks, we'll see how successful this type of input can be for me.

In any event, the "gathered in my name" (master mind) philosophy shows the power of the subconscious mind as prayer can speak directly to one's subconscious, as well as those around them. Makes for one big prayer orgie! You know, the sum of the parts is greater...

And for those that "just know" someone's in trouble, possibly it's a subconscious thing... or a psychic that knows a name of someone close, or can "see" what happened... The subconscious mind, I believe, reaches beyond our physical selves. I really don't know, interesting tho!!

The subconscious has no conscience. Hmmm.. What I mean is that conscious thoughts can be planted to the subconscious mind, good or bad; the subconscious doesn't care. It will take the seed and do it's best to cultivate the idea. Just think of "I want a Coke and nothing else will do". Don't have any? I'll bet big bucks I can be found at the store, or I'll find someone who has a Coke, or call someone that can go to the store. One way or another, I'll have the Coke; or quit smoking, or whatever... my subconscious mind will see to it. (That piece of chocolate cake you passed on at lunch... does the idea of chocolate cake leave your conscious mind? probably.. does it leave your subconscious mind? Well heck no. That cake will be on your mind until your subconscious finds a way to "solve" the problem or this thought is replaced by another (reprogramming... ugh)!!

I think it's the subconscience at least on this plane of reference...

Again, I am really not intellectually educated on these matters... nor have I landed on a theory, just ideas. None of us will ever know whether we were "right" about our views in these matters, so I don't feel I have to choose... I'll know (or not) when I get there!!

Thanks for your thoughts... and good thoughts to you!! (Did you get them? They were subconscious!!)

-- keep the faith... (booann77@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

I love animal stories (not humanimal). Thanks flora.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

KtF:"Again, I am really not intellectually educated on these matters... nor have I landed on a theory, just ideas."

Hey, I'm a high school dropout. In addition, I intentionally blew out much of my memory between the ages of 10 & 25. I can't remember much of anything. This is good in a way in that I am forced to re-think issues on a regular basis. Status as an intellectual isn't the end- all & be-all, IMO. You're doing great!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Just got back from a leave. Sorry haven't read some of the responses here but appreciate the opportunity to respond.

Anita, I definitely believe in reincarnation. We don't "remember" our past lives because of our confinement to this material world. But after we die, we do remember and account for our actions.

Bingo, you mentioned KARMA. It does go hand in hand with reincarnation. When we're in the different plane, we make agreements with other souls that we have wronged (or who wronged us) to amend the relationship in the next life. That's our fate. However, sometimes (since we have no recollection of these arrangements) we may compound these wrongs, increasing the bad KARMA.

Haven't you ever done something that went against you're inner voice but you couldn't help it? The anger you felt (or some other emotion) "made" you react too quickly and now you regret. We come back to improve our souls, make ammends, and move on to higher planes.

Edgar Cayce's book changed my way at looking at reincarnation. I believe I've been here a long time. I hope that I'm doing all that I can to balance the KARMA with my soul mates (yes, we have more than one). According to Cayce we travel back in groups; family and friends to improve. I only wish I could have met Cayce but I believe what he has to say. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 24, 2000.

Up front I'll say that I don't subscribe to a belief in re-incarnation. As others have commented, "It is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement."

Not to hi-jack the thread further, but I wanted to mention a bit about an animal experience. (BTW, I'm sure from here on out my credibility will take a nose dive.) We have some wonderful pets. One of them, however, has had problem after problem-- behavioral issues, health issues, you name it. One person we had been seeing for one health related problem suggested that we consider trying an animal communicator when we related the most recent behavioral problem. We were skeptical, to say the least. Yet, we did decide to try it. We also decided to be careful about what we said/didn't say-- we didn't want to reveal too many details. It was a very fascinating experience. And while some of the information could have been just a guess on the animal communicator's part, a lot of the 'conversation' included specific details that that person would have no way of knowing about. Enough that I feel very confident that communication really did take place between her and our pet.

One part of the 'conversation' that I do wonder about touches on what the dog relayed about her duty in a previous life. Since she was a rescue, we asked if this referred to her life before she came to live with us. No-- it was a reference to a past life, in which she was also a dog.

So that experience has left me with a few questions. As I said before, I don't believe in re-incarnation. After this I do find myself wondering if perhaps non-humans go around more than once? Or was it just a particular bias of the communicator coming through? I have a hard time believing that she has had more than one life-- and yet there was so much overall accuracy throughout the rest of the session, it does give one pause. Anyone who can reconcile this, feel free to jump in.

-- Sounds crazy, I know (nore@l.address), May 24, 2000.

Based on the story it is obvious you really care about this dog. To go against your beliefs in order to possibly help your dog says a great deal about you.

Although I have never dealt with a professional animal communicator, I have little doubt it is possible to draw thoughts from animals, & they from us.

Bingo Jr. & I communicate at a very deep level. I read her & she reads me. We anticipate each other's moves as if the thoughts are pulled from our minds prior to moving a muscle towards completing the intended action.

In our case it's a matter of bonding. For a person to just meet an animal & begin communicating - I'd like to have some of that ability. Thanks for the story.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Sounder,

Again, I think we're hobbled by our perceptions of our own experience - and our need to fit the square pegs of the universe into these damn round holes!

One of my dearest friends fosters rescue collies...fascinating stuff...she's taking one to a therapist, too!

Bongo,

FS had a thread before you arrived. It made me ponder if there's a link between the desire for altered states and the attraction of spirituality - I think I was remebering the dervishes at the time.

My better half has a passion for mycology. I think Paul Stamets has a book that you'd be interested in, if you haven't seen it already. I'm not attracted to the mind altering stuff, personally {have a hard enough time trying to keep the ol' bean corraled as it is!}. I do love the cultural connections though, such as Santa Claus in his red & white suit with the flying reindeer {Amanita muscaria}.

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

If reincarnation does exist, I think that our current project manager was some sort of lawn weed in his last life.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 24, 2000.

Responding to the tote board? Geez, I know I'm bound for the lava lake now!!!!

I for one dont believe in reincarnation, I agree with the existance of being as eternal, for it has been existance. It, to me, is God.

With respects to the one who had been married more than once, and wondering about 'heaven' IF you believe in the bible, it states "in heaven there is no marrying or giving of marriage". If you want, I'll look up the full scripture. There is also another portion of scripture which says "we shall be known as we are known".

As for me, I aint got much to worry about w/my ex's...IF i did make it to heaven, I'd stay far away....LOL.

omg, i cant believe i just responded to this thread, but anita, thanks for posting it, it is interesting to see how others view the subject.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 24, 2000.

Flora,

Ill go fishing for that thread you mentioned. Thanks for the heads- up. FS, if you have the link please post it on this thread. Pretty please. Dont make me beg.

If you have spent time with your better half whilst he/she has been tripping then you have more than likely experienced contact highs. No? To come in contact with one who is beshroomed is to become beshroomed oneself. Say THAT three times fast.

Paul Stamets has written several books including the behemoth Mushroom Cultivator. I am in the process of reconnecting with the world of psychoactivity  via periodicals & the net. A tip to your SO, if theyve not read Terence McKenna, theyre missing something oh so good. My guess is this is old news though.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Actually, we find parenthood more than enough of a head trip at this time. Gastronomy is the great escape! And just getting out & about...the hunting is an experience in an altered state itself - and that's plenty good enough, & more than enough for me to try & process.

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

Dang Bingo,

I'm experiencing the opposite of Deja Vu. I was hunting for that thread, I know I was there before, and I can't find it!

Here's another one that you might enjoy, if you haven't seen it:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002wj0

'What is your concept of time?'

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

Scarlet:

Quite true, and your memory of timing is close to mark. However, there remain many references in scripture that can be and ARE interpreted by many to mean that Christianity and beliefs of reincarnation are NOT mutually exclusive. While the references to scripture provided to Al in Jesus Is Alive - Forevermore may be worded consistent with more modern translations, a quick check of the KJV version of scripture indicates that they still exist.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

I'm on the side of reincarnation. When the Love of My Life Died in my arms he wasn't wearing the ring given to him by his deceased father (a somewhat rare and valuable ring that was either in his possession or mine at ALL times.) I ripped through the house looking for it, but to no avail. It was nowhere to be found! When his family came in demanding "momentos" they started taking everything they could lay their hands on. I was devastated by their greed and retreated to my room in tears. There, in my moment of need, sitting right on top of a book next to our bed, was the RING, seemingly materializing out of nowhere! And then I recalled a conversation he and I had had a few weeks earlier when he said "I'll *always* be there for you!" And sure enough he was!

That it was his time to leave the planet, there is no doubt. We had an Open Door policy and we were the place to come to if you needed a place to sleep, if you were hungry, or just needed to talk. (Yes, if was often Grand Central Station!) At least one *dozen* people attempted to make it to our house the night of the shooting and each and every one of them was unexpectedly prevented from doing so...it was supposed to have played out exactly as it did. There were no other cast members written into this particular scene.

What really blew me away, however, were the precognitive dreams I had of this event a year before it happened. (of course, I didn't realize the dreams were precognitive until the actual events unfolded...) So to see someone you dearly love die in your arms, to have them reach out from the Beyond, and to have seen/felt/known of this event ahead of time left my World View VERY shaken! It took me many years to make sense of it all.

That being said, I can't help but wonder if our afterlife isn't somehow shaped by what we believe in during this Here and Now. For example, my mother doesn't believe in reincarnation - she doesn't WANT to come back. Instead, she wants to become a star. (I'm not kidding!) And I sincerely believe that she WILL become a star after her passing because that's what she's "programmed" for her consciousness. So it may very well be a "to each his own" ending (in which case al-d better be very, very good or that lava baked hell of his could get nasty!) -g-

As for suicide screwing up one's karma - well, I'm deliberating that one again for personal reasons. I can understand why some people see that as their only option - when they are in relentless, excruciating pain, are living a vegetable-type existence, and can no longer make a valuable contribution in a meaningful way, maybe they have the right to leave and try again next time with better circumstances in which to accomplish their mission. Who's to know...?

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), May 24, 2000.

Rent the movie What Dreams May Come. One of the great movies IMO.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 24, 2000.

Here is an excerpt from the above linked Matthew Alper site.

"In essence, any behavior that is universal to any species is, more than likely, the consequence of a genetically inherited impulse or instinct.

"The above principle not only applies to honeybees, peacocks, or cats but to every life form, including our own. The fact, for instance, that every human culture - no matter how isolated - has communicated through language suggests that our species' linguistic capacities constitute a genetically inherited trait. Since our capacity for language represents a cognitive function, there must exist some very specific cluster of neurons within the brain from which our linguistic capacities are generated.

"As we know such 'linguistic' sites do exist in the human brain and include the Wernicke's area, Broca's area, and angular gyrus. Damage incurred to any one of these 'language' specific sites will impair some very specific part of one's language capacities. What this clearly demonstrates is that our linguistic capacities are directly related to our neurophysiological makeups. Furthermore, this supports the notion that for every cross- cultural behavior our species exhibits there must exist a specific part of the brain from which that behavior is generated.

"If it's true that this principle applies to all of our cross-cultural behaviors, should we not also apply it to spirituality? Every known culture from the dawn of our species has maintained a belief in some form of a 'spiritual' reality. Wouldn't this suggest that human spirituality must represent an inherent characteristic of our species, that is, a genetically inherited trait?"

I don't think it does. Linguistic skill is not just common to a "culture," but "universal to a species." Hence the burden on Alper (which he seems to be evading) is to demonstrate that spirituality is also univeral to our species, that every human being believes in "some form of a spiritual reality."

Here's another excerpt from the same page.

"In its healthiest form, anxiety is meant to prompt an animal to avoid or escape a potentially hazardous experience. In humans, however, once we became aware of the fact that death was not only inescapable but that it could come at any moment, we were left in a state of constant mortal peril, a state of unceasing anxiety - much like rabbits perpetually cornered by a mountain lion from which there is no escape. With the emergence of self-awareness, humans became the dysfunctional animal, rendered helpless by an inherent and unceasing anxiety disorder. Unless nature could somehow relieve us of this debilitating awareness of death, it's possible our species might have soon become extinct. It was suddenly critical that our animal be modified in some way that would allow us to maintain self-conscious awareness, while enabling us to deal with our unique awareness of our own mortalities, of death."

The author seems to be implying that awareness of mortality became a perpetual fixation for early humans, which I also find questionable, given all the other concerns that faced them.

I'm not saying that the author's hypothesis is wrong, nor have I read any of his books. But his chain of reasoning does seem to have some weak links.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), May 24, 2000.

"Unless nature could somehow relieve us of this debilitating awareness of death, it's possible our species might have soon become extinct."

David, that's one weird idea! {& it's been gettin' some stiff competition around here}.

-- flora (***@__._), May 24, 2000.

David:

I had the same problems following that author's logic. He saw a trait and opined on why HE thought that trait had survived. In MY mind, it was kindof like Flint suggesting that women have developed breasts in order to attract a mate. Of course we all know that our species wouldn't survive without reproduction and that reproduction flourishes when an alluring trait is noticed by the opposite gender. This is not to say that Flint said this, but to represent an argument similar to that of this author.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 25, 2000.

I wish to address a few points Anita made in a previous post. Ill intersperse my comments with hers, hers being italicized.

I'm not at all convinced that a life of simplicity and meditation does anything to improve Karma [in and of themselves.] The point of both is to eliminate distractions. If distractions exist, they should be eliminated, but once a life is fairly simple and one has mastered the ability to clear the mind, the meditation really does nothing to further one's Karmal "points."

The point of meditation in my practice is to connect with the Source of Love & Wisdom  not to be confused with human love & wisdom. I define meditation as concentration upon God. Obviously Im not Buddhist! I believe there is a mechanism for burning up the seeds of past wrong actions & desires (not in & of themselves morally bad) inherent in deep meditation. This belief has its source in my experiences over the past several years of pretty consistent practice.

Living a simple life eliminates distractions & by reducing the amount of stimuli helps to lessen desire-generating thoughts. For example, Television provides us with an incredible amount of stimuli which work on us long after we finish watching. I limit the time I spend viewing television to those few shows I really enjoy. I still find myself mindlessly surfing the boob tube but those instances are fewer & fewer as time goes along. If I were not married, I dare say I would not subscribe to cable television. That-a-way Bingo, shift the blame! :^)

The human mind has an excellent recall system. If one has engaged in an experience [let's take drugs like marijuana and psilocybin as examples], the mind remembers the sensation produced by the experience and one doesn't really need to continue in the practice to experience the same influence. One only needs to RECALL the experience

As Ive mentioned previously, my mind is pretty much shot. Excellent recall? LOL! One of the great effects of meditation is I am often able to take the peace achieved in meditation out into the work-a-day world.

As for experiences while under the influence of psychoactives, I know the teachings gained from them can become ingrained. Thought processes can be (have been) altered permanently. Can I put myself into a state of consciousness similar to that experienced with 4-5 dry grams of a quality magic mushroom? Not yet. Close but no cigar. Can others? Yes. In yogic terms it is called Samadhi I do know Ive achieved similar states while in the condition known as Blissed- out. This is something which has happened to me, not a condition Ive sought through action on my part.

I don't think a necessarily conscious effort need be applied to improve one's Karma. I think this is where the yogis have it all wrong. They sit all day meditating to improve themselves so that THEY may reach Nirvana, but their concentration is on the goal rather than the process. I think the process IS the important part. The goal of Nirvana, Ever- lasting Life, Rapture, etc. is THERE, but I'm amazed at the desires to speed the process, which is what *I* think improves one's Karma.

I experience humans as existing on many, many, many different evolutionary levels, spiritually speaking. One takes on the garb of a yogi when one is sufficiently advanced and has a predilection for such a path. Of course there are many levels within the classification yogi. Meditation is the process for many yogis, along with service to others. Your experience with yogis may be different than mine, Anita.

Life is so damn interesting that I don't understand why ANYONE would want to rush toward the finish line. It's by LIVING your faith that one's Karma is furthered. It's by LIVING one's faith that eternal life is obtained. Meditation, bible study, whatever helps one maintain focus in their belief system is simply a TOOL. These activities do nothing to create the end product. LIVING, interacting, sharing acts of kindness, loving the process, etc. are where I see Karma furthered.

Life is interesting, and also delusive in that it deflects my focus from the one goal  achieving oneness in God. It appears by your comments you dont equate meditation with Living. It is a tool which doesnt produce anything of value, doesnt further ones evolution, doesnt create? Again, my experience says otherwise.

This is why I believe there are so many paths to the same goal. Agreement between parties as to how we improve ourselves isnt necessary. The freedom to choose is essential. Respect from others would be nice.

The choices are endless. Find your path & put yourself to work. Unless you are like al-d, in which case theres nothing to be done but wait for the elevator. :^)

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 25, 2000.

I had a feeling this thread had petered out, but I went ahead & posted the above anyway. Bummer.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 25, 2000.

Bingo, if it's any consolation, I found your last post (where you addressed some of Anita's points) interesting.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), May 25, 2000.

there is no salvation--without A SAVIOUR.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 22, 2000.

there is no thought--without A BRAIN --JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), May 25, 2000.

Bingo I think you answered Anita's points very well. Let me add some of my own points of view. Meditation allows us to clear our minds to not only find the peace and love (as you've stated) but also to find our purpose. Through meditation we can answer the questions of which path to follow. We try to find out how we can correct our wrongs so that we don't repeat our past (past lives also) mistakes.

Did you ever have a strange dream? Dreams are a way of our minds telling us about our past lives. They come from our imagination but our imagination is nothing more than our experiences. Sure some dreams just repeating movies or scenes from the present but sometimes they are so removed we just wonder, "where'd that come from".

I don't believe in hell. Hell is a fairy tale made up for children, just like the big bad wolf. I believe that we are all striving to reach nirvana because then we won't have to reincarnate back to this material world. If we don't balance the karma, then we can't advance, sort of, hell is this earth. The way to enjoy this life is to fulfill our fate (the agreement made with other souls before we entered this plane). If we can't (or don't) fulfill our fate, we come back to do it again.

I have this feeling that I've lived before. I helped a person who was shunned by the villagers for some disformity. That earned me the right to have a better life this time around. In Cayce's book, he talks a lot about karma. If in a past life you wronged someone, the this life you will suffer those wrongs. If you've ever asked why me, why should I have this disease? Your past life may hold the answer. If you harmed someone in a past life, you will feel the pain you inflicted in this life. Reaching nirvana is not a bad thing, we all need to improve our relationships to get there.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 26, 2000.

Maria,

Good to see your name at the bottom of a post once again. :^)

Yes, intuition. How could I possibly forget this most delicate, sweetest of fruits! The ability to hear the silent voice of intuition is sadly, slowly lost to many children as they become socialized. When unsupported by parents & other relatives as to the true nature of the experience, this loss is a grave one, for there is no purer wisdom than that garnered intuitively.

I could write volumes on the little whispers I receive each day. For boring though they might be when related to others, these gems provide yet another proof of contact with the Source - joyous proof that I am not alone in the vastness.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 26, 2000.

what if the creation story inbible is true.ADAM & EVE,blow it,become spiritually-dead in a sense,no more close fellowship with GOD. BUTTTT, GOD has the problem solved.HE provides a sacrificial-lamb. cain[adam,s son] obey,s offers the lamb to GOD[type of christ] his brother get,s pissed[jealous] because GOD doesn,t ACCEPT his offering[own work,s]=religion.GOD is trying to tell cain=hey don,t mess with my program. i,ll solve the sin problem MYSELF'thank-you. I DON,T NEED YOUR HELP.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 26, 2000.

Bingo:

I just checked my E-mail on the Hotmail account. Please don't throw me a guilt-rap on how I should do that more often.

I'd seen your response, but I couldn't expound on it. There was once a time in my life when I was in your place. The experience of that time is replaced with the reality of today, yet.......there again, the MEMORY of that experience seems to be enough. It's like ANY goal for which we must work. At some point the work culminates, the goal is perfected [never perfected ENOUGH], but perfected enough to satisfy, and we move on. One lifetime is NEVER enough to perfect the goal, and I think we miss out on a lot in each lifetime if our concentration is to perfect the goal in that lifetime. For that reason, it's my preference to engage in the process in each lifetime until I'm at a point where I believe further processing is best left to memory and application.

I don't want to be repetitive, but here again is my problem with the Yogi's. Desire for perfection is admirable, but when will this perfection ever be APPLIED if one devotes each life to the perfection?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 27, 2000.

One can be a yogi without long hours of meditation each day. One need not renunciate all worldly responsibilities.

I suspect you are living as a yogini in a matter of speaking, Miss Anita. We are on the same page.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 27, 2000.

Since it's Memorial weekend, I thought I'd toss out the fact that General Patton was convinced of reincarnation & had ties to the battlefields which could be thought of as somewhat prophetic.

-- flora (***@__._), May 28, 2000.

The profane generally imagine that Buddhists believe in the reincarnation of the soul and even in metempsychosis. This is erroneous. Buddhism teaches that the energy produced by the mental and physical activities of a being brings about the apparition of new mental and physical phenomena, when once this being has been dissolved by death.

There exist a number of subtle theories upon this subject and the Tibetan mystics seem to have attained a deeper insight into the question than most other Buddhists.

However, in Tibet as elsewhere, the views of the philosophers are only understood by the elite. The masses, although they profess the orthodox creed: "all aggregates are impermanent; no 'ego' exists in the person, nor in anything," remain attached to the more simple belief in an undefined entity traveling from world to world, assuming various forms.  Alexandra David-Neel, Magic and Mystery in Tibet

Though the notion of an eternal soul free from the laws of transience and absence of own-being is rejected, it is recognized that the bundle of characteristics which constitutes a man's personality does persistthough of course in changing formfrom life to life and aeon to aeon. Just as the middle-aged man has gradually developed out of the boy he has ceased to be, so has each of us developed from the being we used to be in our previous existence, bringing with us into this life many of the relatively long-term characteristics which determine our present circumstances and personality. Thus the Buddhist equivalent of the Christian concept of the soul is a continuum that changes from moment to moment, life to life, until the ego is negated and Nirvana won.  John Blofeld, The Tantric Mysticism of Tibet

It is a mistake to attempt a final estimate of the views of either Buddha, Plato, Jesus, or any other teacher of religious philosophy, by means of a literal analysis of the printed record of what they taught. In the case of Buddha, there is reason to think that, like Jesus, he taught an inner, higher doctrine to his immediate disciples. What may be called "popular" Buddhism has generally been conceded to be preserved by the Southern or Ceylonese School, and it is from the scriptures of Southern Buddhism that Western scholars have gained the impression that Buddha denied the possibility of immortality. Rhys Davids, the Orientalist whose interpretations are best known to the West, has written: "There is no passage of a soul or I in any sense from the one life to the other." . . . Davids also concludes that "death, utter death," is the sequel to Nirvana.

Edmund Holmes is convinced that this is a mutilation, a complete misreading, of Buddhist philosophy, and his chapter in The Creed of Buddha to correct the mistake seems a well-reasoned discussion of the central implication of Buddhist teachings. The Southern version, briefly, is that at death a man's tendencies and traits of character are resolved into psychic residues termed by the Buddhists Skandas, and that these are all that remain of the man who has died. The Skandhas (carriers of Karma) are then reborn in some other person or individual, but without any connecting link of continuing egoity.

Northern Buddhism [the Buddhism of Tibet, China, and Japan], on the other hand, while exuberantly metaphysical in form, is said to have preserved the teaching given by Buddha to his arhats, or initiated disciples, and here one finds unmistakably taught the doctrine of a permanent identity which unites all the incarnations of a single individual. This latter is the view adopted by Holmes: "The question we have to ask ourselves with regard to the Buddhist conception is a simple one: Is the identity between me and the inheritor of my Karma . . . as real as the identity between the me of today and the me of 20 years hence . . . ? If it is not as real, the doctrine of reincarnation is pure nonsense."  From an "essay on Buddha's thought contained in a translation of the Dhammapada published by the Cunningham Press," quoted in Reincarnation: An East-West Anthology.

Karma and Causality The impetus which impels a sentient being to pass from round to round of birth and death is provided by karmic force. Acts of body, speech and mind produce internal and external results which, in combination with the fruits of other acts, become the causes of further and yet further results many of which involve the doer. Thus karma (causatory energy) leads to chains of action and reaction extending from life to life and governing the circumstances of each. Belief in the action of karma must not be confused with a kismet-like fatalism. Though we are bound to reap all we sow, we are free to sow new seed that will bear good fruit. Moreover, with the gradual negation of the ego, karma's hold is loosened.

The karmic process is intricate. A criminal, for example, incurs more than legal punishment or terror of discovery; the results of his crime affect his personality either by coarsening it or by afflicting him with remorse; that coarsening or affliction will in turn produce results; and those results, yet others. Thus, whether or not legal punishment follows, the consequences of wrongdoing are severe. Whereas a Christian may hope that his piety and good works will be accepted as atonement, a Buddhist, knowing that his severest judge, gaoler and executioner are himself and that sentence by this judge is mandatory, understands that virtue and evil never cancel out each other, that he will harvest and consume the fruits of each. On the other hand, in the Buddhist view, evil is not sin but ignorance (for no one able to foresee all the karmic consequences of an evil deed could bring himself to err). Hence the remedy is the wisdom which tends to diminution of the ego and to a weakening of karmic force.  John Blofeld, The Tantric Mysticism of Tibet

Merit and Its Transfer The fruits of good thoughts, words and deeds are collectively known as merit. Merit, like the fruits of bad karma, persists for a long time; stocks of it can be built up and expended by an act of will in two ways: (1) to ameliorate our present circumstances and/or to ensure rebirth into a relatively pleasant situation; (2) to loosen Samsara's bonds and advance us towards Liberation.

Since nothing is predestined and, despite karma, there is wide scope for the play of free will, it follows that we have some degree of choice as to whether the merit will be expended frivolously on a pleasant rebirth or wisely on securing a birth conducive to the pursuit of Liberation. (Some Buddhists, thinking of Liberation as something immeasurably far off, prefer agreeable mundane results that will be more immediate.)

The notion that an act of will can affect the fruits of merit is carried further. It is believed that stocks of merit can be transferred to other beings. In Theravadin countries, young men often take temporary monastic vows as a means of building up merit for their parents. Vajrayana followers daily renew an act of will transferring their merit to sentient beings in general. The hoarding of merit for oneself is acceptable conduct among the Theravadins, but Mahayanists consider it ignoble. Whether or not it is really possible to transfer merit, forming an intention to do so is salutary, for all unselfish thoughts naturally lead to a corresponding diminution of the ego. Unfortunately, this reflection makes it difficult to be sincerely generous; for, at the moment of offering merit (or anything else) to others, one may be conscious of doing oneself a good turn!  John Blofeld, The Tantric Mysticism of Tibet

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 28, 2000.

The above mentioned Matthew Alper is scheduled to appear on Mike Siegel's Coast to Coast AM radio show, 6/07/00 - Wednesday night/Thursday morning.

Coast to Coast AM

Alper is the author of The God Part Of The Brain.

The show airs live 1:00am-5:00am EST on some 400 radio stations & is available through live streaming audio. It is archived for future listening (Realplayer) at:

Audio Archives

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), June 02, 2000.

I never listen to nightime radio shows, but I hope you'll help me toss this thread to the top on occasion so that the recording will stir my memory, Bingo.

Thanks for the thumbs-up.

Anita

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 02, 2000.

Friendly bump to the top...

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), June 05, 2000.

Bingo, what do you think of Shirley MacLain's trek across 500 miles?

I'm not sure she's for real. I understand she's trying to get the word out on reincarnation but she doesn't seemed to have evolve to be such a "teacher". I still get a bit of a profit seeking agenda when she talks about it. I agree that we can realize facts about our past lives but so much of her imagination comes from the movies that she hasn't distinguished the difference.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 06, 2000.

I don't know anything about her, except she's been the butt of 'new age' jokes for a few decades.

We're all teachers, of ourselves and others. I question anyone who holds him or herself up as a teacher. Better to say Im a skeptic. If their ego is in evidence as a major role-player in that persons psyche Id say this person is not pure enough to be a spiritual teacher or leader. The ego serves us well if kept in its place. When self-importance sneaks in its time to take a step back.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), June 06, 2000.

You are wise beyond your years :)

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 06, 2000.

I spoke with Shirley one-on-one at length in the past (this lifetime, though) and came away impressed that she was honest in her spiritual expression. Whether or not she has other personal agendas, I cannot say. My "agenda radar" was not activated when talking with her, and she was extremely pure in motivation at the time. She proved it in a way that I cannot share here.

Sometimes the message is right on, no matter the level of development of the individual. It must be tough for her to deal with the ego requirements of a star and the humility requirements of a spiritual teacher, if that is her chosen role. I did think she was sincere, and accurate, during her "Out on a Limb" life phase.

-- Normally (Oxsys@aol.com), June 06, 2000.

Normally, "Out on a limb" brought back feelings that I had long forgotten about my past lives. So I'm thankful that she did "come out". But when she talked about being Cleopatra in a previous life, well... let's just say I laughing at those jokes about her. She may be sincere but I'm just questioning her motives. Why really did she go through that trek with reporters following?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 06, 2000.

Maria, most folks would say Im not even wise beyond my ears! But thank you anyway. :^)

Ox, I know what you mean by your agenda radar". Ive learned to first listen, and then trust, mine. I use it on myself all the time. Lots of practice! So-called New Agers are often times criticized for their seemingly all-accepting approach. I think this is a fallacy. Many spiritual seekers of other than Judeo-Christian faiths bring a good deal of skepticism to the table. As it should be. The agenda radar is but one tool. A very good one all the same.

Sometimes the message is right on, no matter the level of development of the individual.

I love this statement. The possibility of learning from any & all keeps me (somewhat) humble. For the ego blinds the egoist to those he/she judges as lesser ones.

This statement can, and should also be extended beyond humanity and into all the realms of this physical world. What matters is the message, not the messenger, the lesson, not the teacher.

I had bumped this thread to the top as a reminder to those interested that Matt Alper will be interviewed on Coast-to-Coast AM this week. Glad to see the thread getting some fresh actvity as well.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), June 06, 2000.

I have not read anything by Shirley MacLaine lately, but ok, so maybe she was Cleopatra. Or not. Who knows? After all, she IS Shirley MacLaine. I mean, if she came back in another incarnation in the future and claimed to have been Shirley MacLaine, who would believe her?

(They would say she's just another "fame wannabe"...)

This message has been brought to you by an alleged, former Raboni in a Biblical temple, a mother among ancient Greeks whose son did not get the job done, and a small girl who was kind to animals, prehistory. So... ya want MY autograph? lol

-- Normally (Oxsys@aol.com), June 06, 2000.

Thanks for this, Bingo. I'll have a listen.

I have yet to hear of anyone convincingly explain-AWAY the self or soul (i.e. sentience - I Yam that I Yam) so it'll be interesting to see what Alper does with it. (Freud brought up to date? I haven't looked at the book.)

I tend to believe in reincarnation. I have a persistent memory of a place and time which feels "out of time". I woke up one afternoon a few years ago from a nap, with a stunning feeling that I had been gone for at least a few months, and possibly years, with accompanying memories. Not "oh what an interesting dream" - but like you would remember something real. I even tried to search my calendar for empty weeks which would prove that I had been away, so persistent was (and still is) my conviction about this, against all "reason." OK, so I know it sounds nuts.

Whatever happens after death, it is probably a good deal beyond our ability to comprehend IMO (if indeed the concept "after" has meaning outside of the concept of "time.") Whenever I listen to cosmologists talk, it's kinda obvious that "we" are bumping up against the boundary of our own built-in measuring/perceiving facility- although we still have the same old dilemma on our hands don't we- it's a "leap" from there to spirituality. Just some thoughts...

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), June 06, 2000.

Al Dee, you need help, and it can quite possibly be found in the yellow pages.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), June 06, 2000.