Gonna drive to Hardliner's place tomorrow. No Alice he aint in OZ, just Texas.

Any greets ya got that I might WANT to pass along?

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 19, 2000

Answers

Sure-tell him FutureShock says hello from New Jersey. Have a good trip.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.

You can certainly tell him "Mr." Decker said "Hello." Oh, and do ask why he never visits. (chuckle)

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 19, 2000.

Yep...tell him that Greybear still hasn't sent me instructions on how to get to his house for the picnic. I know he still has a month left, but I'm not sure he even got my E-mail and now I lost his E- address.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

I miss Ol' Hardliner.

Please tell him his favorite troglodyte said howdy.

You could also mention the fact that he was dead wrong about Y2K. You'd think a brave soldier would have the guts to come back and take a little grief considering his attitude towards us pollies and our views last year. Guess not. I reckon the fact that you are a jarhead does not make you a real man.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 19, 2000.

Who is Hardliner?

-- (Dummy@know .nothing), May 19, 2000.

give him my regards

hope his limericking is as sharp as ever

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 19, 2000.

Hardliner's posts were always a good read - until he went off the deep end with the TB2000 PTB. I never could understand his joining of the bandwagoneers as they drifted into extremism, paranoia, etc.

And tell him his use of colored text made reading some of his posts nigh impossible.

Anyway, enjoy the visit Carlos.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

Good observation, Bingo. Hardliner was one of those arch- conservatives who never had a moment's doubt about the "rightness" of his position. (Pun intended). After all his prattling on about "honor" and "integrity," he pretty much vaporized after Y2K. One might think a man of his deep morality might feel obliged to apologize... not for being wrong about Y2K, but about being so disrespectful to those who were right.

Maybe not.

Carlos, you may want to let Hardliner know that we are planning a fall gathering in Las Vegas. Love to see him there. Maybe Invar as well.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 19, 2000.

For sure, a BIG HELLO from Sysman!!!!!

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 19, 2000.

he never really took y2k seriously, it was all a big joke for most of us, trouble is the pollies fell right for it

hardliner has integrity and character

we all had a good time on the forum during 98 until the trolls arrived the majority of discussions did not even involve y2k

hope the chaos in his life has subsided somewhat

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 19, 2000.

Ken:

I've chatted with Hardliner on a one-to-one every day for a series of weeks, and he never struck me as a guy who didn't admit when he was wrong. He certainly had a different philosophy regarding the outcome of Y2k than *I* did, but he never let that philosophy get in the way of normal conversation with me, and he DID feel foolish when Y2k turned out to be different in impact than he'd imagined. The way I see it, Y2k for him is just another page in his "Color me Stupid" coloring book, and I think we ALL have one of THOSE, right?

I think for everyone involved in the great Y2k debates, including those who called it wrong, it's more important to concentrate on TODAY than make a list of the folks we insulted, or a list of the folks who insulted US and demand of ourselves or others some sort of apology.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

'never took Y2K seriously'???

'integrity and character'???

Hardliner?????

Hope the fall from the turnip truck didn't hurt toooo bad there Richard.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 19, 2000.

Anita, you are too cool! :-)

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), May 19, 2000.

Carlos, Hardliner ever post under another handle? Is he/she the "shirt tale?" If so, I would like to send a msg. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree. Jesus! it is so hard to find people when they change their physical address! and handles.

-- Trying to (tr@cehumans.com), May 19, 2000.

Sorry, Anita, but I don't have the benefit of long, cozy chats over coffee with Hardliner. All I have is his rather overheated rhetoric. The mistake Hardliner made was not simply Y2K... it was how he confused debating Y2K with ad hominem attacks on "pollies." Hardliner played fast and loose with the characterizations of other people's "honor," a dangerous game in my neighborhood.

I really don't care about Hardliner getting Y2K wrong. I knew he was wrong about Y2K last year... I just don't like HOW he was wrong about it.

You remind me, Anita, of the father in Monty Python's Holy Grail who walk down among the slaughtered wedding guests and tells everyone, "Let's not worry about 'o killed 'o." Noblesse oblige is rather easy when you don't have any blood on you.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 19, 2000.

Funny, Ken. You're right, however. By the time I got to TB2000 in June of 1999, I had to wonder why folks took the subject so seriously. I'm sure that folks who took the subject seriously and took the responses of others seriously have strong emotions regarding the exchanges that took place. I don't.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 20, 2000.

I believe a careful reading of the old TB2000 archives will show that Hardliner all but vanished well before the rollover non-event.

-- (anon@with 02.cents), May 20, 2000.

anita,you don't even understand that you were dissed.

-- (Cr@zy .bones), May 20, 2000.

Responded to me.

Lurker!

Aug 99. Thanks Hardliner.

-- listen (hardliner@..com), May 20, 2000.

bones:

I noticed the chide, but I'm a pollyanna. Haven't you seen my picture?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 20, 2000.

Anita,

People took Y2K seriously because some thought it was the Apocalypse, including your friend, "Hardliner." If I thought a given date would be the "end of the world," I'd probably be a trifle testy myself. Even so, "Hardliner" went beyond "emotion" and engaged in some nasty personal attacks

Let me correct one misconception, though... I do not have any strong emotions about "Hardliner," no more than I have strong emotions about the taste of okra. I tried okra a few times and didn't like it. I really don't think about okra on a daily basis nor do I have a strong reaction when I see it on a menu. I simply know that I do not like it.

Our difference opinion about "Hardliner" is not about emotional maturity or "letting go of the past." It is simply that we have different tastes... and I am quite willing to leave it at that.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 2000.

I must have selective memory.

I remember Hardliner engaging in heated debate, I remember some name calling, but nothing that struck me as excessive considering the wild wild west re-enactment that was TB2K. Some people's style was direct insult, some people were better at sugar coating it, but there were VERY few, if any who never got angry enough to jab hard at another.

Hardliner and I get along quite well, and he has been very helpful to me with some computer stuff. I think he is an OK Joe, but that might not mean much, since I like just about everybody.

It's humans in general that I cannot stand.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 2000.

Ken:

"People took Y2K seriously because some thought it was the Apocalypse, including your friend, "Hardliner."

I'm quite aware of Hardliner's opinions on Y2k. I'm also quite aware of the effects of pain/fear. My mom went into a deep depression when she saw my dad withering away from cancer before her eyes. She tried to kill herself, and I spent many months visiting her in the psychiatric ward after that attempt. She lashed out at me with a vengeance that I'd never seen before. She wanted me to feel the same pain/fear that SHE felt, but she didn't stop there. She went back to everything she'd ever done for me and accused me of being ungrateful, and basically a no-good shmuck who she wished she'd never bore.

I had some choices in how I reacted to my mom during this period, and I chose not to react at all. With the help of anti-depressants and psychiatric counseling, my mom got over this period in her life. My dad died about 5 months later, but my mom's depression lifted even before her fears were realized. I've never felt it necessary to extract an apology from my mom for all the hateful things she said during this period of her life, and she never felt it necessary to give one.

Y2k fear turned out to be similar in context to my mom's fear if my dad had lived. Had my dad lived, my mom and I MAY have revisited her fears and had a good laugh, which is basically what Hardliner and I did. She might have said, "Boy, was I stupid. I just KNEW the worst would happen." I might have said, "Well, that's behind you now. No sense wasting energy on past stupidity when we can forge ahead to tomorrow's stupidity." Actually, this dialogue resembles closely the dialogue I shared with Hardliner after the CDC came and went.

I'm not suggesting at all that emotional immaturity is at play, Ken, nor am I suggesting that you're stuck in the past. I'm simply suggesting that SOME lions appear vicious because there's a thorn in their paw and that once the thorn is removed the lion is no longer vicious.

I agree, BTW, on okra.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 20, 2000.

Anita, what kind words. If only others, could now visualize that same potential Lion, which stood with jaws gaped, saliva drooling (economy), to pounce upon every economic factor in their world, Gas/cigarette prices. Shall we touch on the cost of a lowly watermelon, whose cost is currently advertised at $5.50. When ever, in Gods' creation, has a watermelon been so humanly expensive? Potential danger was warned, it has arrived. Maybe the recognition has not yet been acknowledged by the Majority, but the Minority has open wounds. When the Minority begins to bleed, the Majority shall soon follow.

-- My Story (andI'm@stickingtoit.com), May 20, 2000.

If a lion starts chewing on you... do you really care about the thorn in its paw?

*****

I am sorry about your mother's depression and her behavior. I am relatively sure you were more tolerant of your mother because of the personal relationship you shared with her. I imagine you'd be less indulgent with a stranger on the street.

To me, "Hardliner" is a complete stranger... an anonymous Internet poster. There is no "emotional context" or even the pretext of a relationship. This makes me less "understanding" of his antics. Again, there were some people who missed the boat on Y2K, and still earned my respect. "Hardliner" got confused by thinking anyone who disagreed with him was a "fuzzy thinking, Clinton-hugging liberal."

If I knew "Hardliner," I'd probably just roll my eyes and wave at the bartender to bring me another beer. Because I don't know him, he's like the stranger at the bar who's had one too many and has decided to bark up my tree. Well... the good part of cyberspace is the distance between barstools....

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 2000.

LOL Ken!, we are not distanced by the bar stools on this forum! We, for some reason are stuck here together! Shit! I once had a materialistic life, which seemed to work fine, for all credit card addiction purposes. Until I paid all the cards off. Ya would think I have been home free since the pay offs. No siree, moved to BFE, simplistic life, trials continue to hound me. For informational purposes only, Spouse and me make 100K per annum, we do not have the dollars to lay in a lousy concrete driveway. we live in a DoubleWide, something is wrong with this picture. Pray for Us and For All.

-- My God, Your God (somebodys@God.com), May 21, 2000.

I'm going to wrap this up on my end, Ken by suggesting that we agree to disagree. Personally, I think we're LESS understanding with folks we know and love than we are with casual acquaintances. When folks we love say hurtful things, we feel hurt. When folks we don't know say hurtful things, I think we tend to consider it THEIR problem....at least *I* do.

Carlos: I expect a report on your return.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Ken:

I forgot something for which I wanted to respond. You mentioned something about Clinton, and I can't see how anyone didn't notice that the Y2k pessimists were [in general] very anti-Clinton, anti- government, etc. I noticed this more in Robert Cook's posts than I did in Hardliner's. Robert only on rare occasions missed an opportunity to throw his political opinions into a discussion of nuclear plants.

I also couldn't help but notice that religion was brought into the Y2k discussions. The thought seemed to be that conservative Christians were pessimistic about Y2k and that folks who disagreed were liberal atheists. Of course we know this wasn't true, as many/most of the debunkers originally got together due to sharing right-wing Christian dogma.

I never understood this mixture of the issues, and restrained from engaging in any Y2k debates that went off into these other areas. It was my feeling that Y2k was an emotional enough issue without including other topics of emotion.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Anita,

You probably take what your mother says more seriously than comments from a total stranger. Your mother probably has higher expectations of you than of some casual acquaintance.

I also think you are probably more likely to forgive your mother her inevitable human weaknesses because of your emotional bond with her. And I think most people are more likely to lash out at family and friends than at total strangers. Why? Because we generally know what to expect. For all we know, the total stranger at the end of the bar may have far less patience than dear old mum.

You like "Hardliner" because you developed a personal relationship with him. His interactions with you were far different than his interactions with me. Ever notice how many criminals have devoted family members? There always some weeping mother on television talking about how her son is really a good boy. The rest of us just see the criminal behavior.

My opinion of "Hardliner" is based on his behavior... not only towards me, but towards the other "pollies" on the forum. You can find all kind of extenuating circumstances. Hey, there's probably a defense lawyer right now working on a summation with the "thorn in the lion's paw" analogy.

In summary, I have no desire to interfere with your liking "Hardliner" and simply ask that you extend the same respect to me not liking him. Fair enough?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 21, 2000.

Ken:

"Fair enough?" You betcha. In fact, if I attend the picnic at his place in June and end up driving home before I've finished the beer I brought and waited an appropriate interval to allow for a sober drive, I'll E-mail you [from home or a ditch] to say you were right.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Hardliner posted quite a few messages on this old TB2000 thread from Feb. 1999....

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000ToL

-- A stroll (down@memory.lane), May 21, 2000.

Thanks for that stroll down memory lane. These posts were pretty indicative of what I'd seen from Hardliner after I entered the forum in June of 1999.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Thanks for the stroll. Brings back bittersweet memories of some interesting personalities, intense interchange. I wouldn't have missed it for anything...

Except maybe a jackpot winning Powerball ticket. Or a new pickup truck. Maybe a timeshare in Myrtle Beach. $100 a week in groceries for one year. A one Gigahertz Athlon with a 19" flat panel monitor. A set of books written by Neal Donald Walsch.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 21, 2000.

Anita,

I imagine you'll have a grand time. You already seem quite fond of him, and I doubt a picnic will change your mind. My comments have nothing to do with "right" or "wrong." My dislike of okra doesn't make it a "bad" vegetable. Your admiration of "Hardliner" does not make him a "good" person. With all due respect, Anita, your experience at the picnic will have absolutely no bearing on my opinion of "Hardliner."

Have a great time.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 22, 2000.

Hope the fall from the turnip truck didn't hurt toooo bad there Richard.

Deano

you never knew the real hardliner persona so how can you tell, you people are more naive than I could possibly imagine

this sort of corn humour doesn't wash, or is it humour or insult

when someone insults they've lost the argument

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 22, 2000.

I remember Hardliner engaging in heated debate, I remember some name calling, but nothing that struck me as excessive considering the wild wild west re-enactment that was TB2K. Some people's style was direct insult, some people were better at sugar coating it, but there were VERY few, if any who never got angry enough to jab hard at another.

bravo unk

The forum was fine, bit of heated debate, much humour, bonhomie, harmless slander, give and take, limericks, songs, exchange of views, cyber friendmaking, cyber rivalmaking, cyberbashing, 90% was not about y2k, I've been "insulted" (too strong a word) a few times by unk taken the mick out of Diane something rotten, nobody died

PS I also flummoxed LL who is probably not a bad stick underneath it all I see the pollies are still on the "I told you so" kick, Ok the doomers were wrong and I'm glad, I expect they are too

people were hoping that y2k might bring about the end of this disastrous regime, (if I were a democrat I wouldn't support Clinton who is quite plainly a murderer)

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), May 22, 2000.

LOL Richard. As Bullwinkle moose stated so eloquently, "Short trip!".

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 22, 2000.

Here's one of my favorite thread down memory lane. Both Hardliner and Decker are at their best. Hardliner turned out to be wrong, but in my mind he is still a brilliant man.

There's even a cameo appearance from KoS on this thread, and a short play at the end. Decker, fittingly, gets the last word.

Enjoy

Decker: "Hoist with his own petar. . ."

-- A Fan of (Decker@nd.Hardliner), May 22, 2000.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

See this thread for Classic Hardliner [titled "Back to Basics (or, Keep Your Eye on the Ball)"]

I kinda like this quote " No, illusion simply won't cut it here. All the marbles are real and there are only a finite number of them although that number is exceedingly large and the number of them still in the canyon is certainly far larger than the pile on the side.

It also merits mention that North, Yourdon, et al are not attempting to convince anyone of the number of marbles left in the canyon, but that the barkers (who bear an astonishing resemblence to PR shills) are attempting to convince everyone that the pile that has been polished is "sufficient" and that the rest will all be polished "in time". "

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

-- ROTFLMAO (pantyliner@redtext.too.much!), May 22, 2000.

To which Russ Lipton says:

"Hardliner, this is a penetrating discernment and a good reason why the secular equivalent of the Nuremberg trials may still be held for my IT peers post-Y2K. Anyone who thinks an industry that is so lame, however clever (and we are the "smartest", believe me) is now handling the marble removal with integrity has lost their marbles.

As witness the smartest of them all, Mr. Bill. "Y2K? What, me worry?"

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 04, 1999."

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!

-- ROTFLMAO (pantyliner@redtext.too.much!), May 22, 2000.

Just more proof that the old TB crowd did believe that y2k was going to be bad, contrary to what the revisionist historians would like the world to think!

Thanks for the links; Damn Funny!

"Its Friday night and we started to late...." LOL!

-- Just me (hanging@round.lurking), May 22, 2000.

What the old TB crowd thought about Y2K wasn't as nearly as important as what those in policy making positions thought.

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000ToL

Link

-- (1@9.99), May 22, 2000.

Thanks for that, Kevin. The debunky morons just won't give up, will they? :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 22, 2000.