OT - religious rant here... Old timers must read... rookies, nothing to see here, move along...

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OK, we have been tiptoeing (sorta) around this subject for a while now, so let's see... Here we go:

What do you believe, from a religious stand point??? Really.

Have you ever thought about it? R e a l l y...

We all know what 'Al-d' and 'I believe' and such, believe... They spout it to the virtual winds to anyone who doesn't ask for their opinion. Let's talk about what all us 'heathens' think who have no use for "organized religion" per say.

I have seen signs of Zoobie here lately; he has an interesting take on this subject. : ) Ken, I know you haven't broached this subject, you are too busy with 'I told ya so' and fending off trolls. (I just thank the most high you were right... : )) Flint, you have stepped here a time or to, tiptoed a little bit, and meandered about, but without enough substance to get a gauge... I have figured Gilda's and Anita's stance on this subject and I think Hawk and I see eye to eye on most matters of the soul. There are many others who have spoken up... FutureShock, Capnfun, I know I am leaving a bunch out... If I miss you, and I know I will, I am sincerely sorry... Consumer, even Laura. Let's not forget Manny... (Oh God...)

Anyone who has been around here a long time knows my belief system... "Let your conscience be your guide", IF YOU HAVE A CONSCIENCE. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... Where did that come from??? Maybe all the words in that book aren't tainted... : ) Do at least one thing out of your way, or thoughtful for someone every day. Smile, you are on your way. Solitude... You must have solitude for 'decision making'. Turn off the damn 'brain drain' television set and step out into your yard at dusk. (Living in NM, this is an absolutely spectacular view) Clear all that incessant crap from modern life from your head. (This is the hardest part of my belief system) Amazing things will come to mind if you only let them... If your conscience is working properly, you will know what I am talking about.

Your heavenly Father is just that... Your father. A loving father IMO; we are his creation. He is not going to hold your hand over an open flame, nor is he going to chain you to a cart either, and we are talking mental as well as physical duress... He knows your mind, he made you. But he learned from past experiences that there should be no "fiddling" with the experiment. We are proving in a very sad way that most of us have no allegience to our creator. We prove it by our actions. Scratch himself told our man on high that we would fail his experiment... In fact, he basically bet him that he would convert all his creation to his own minions.

I always wondered how anyone who studied the Bible could miss this belief.

I just hope the corruption of that ubiquitous book is not so severe that what actually happens is we all get poured down the proverbial 'holy sink' when the experiment is over.

I have this profound hope we are being tested for goodness and sincerity. The ones who achieve this feat are the people that shall "meet the Lord in the air" (figuratively speaking, of course) I personally hope, if that scripture is correct, is we go sort of non-corporeal, and the universe is our playground... ; )

I am firm in my belief system... You can preach to me all you want... tell me I am going to Hell... have horns and a "wrinkly contenence"... (giggle) Shit man, Hell is TODAY. We have ARRIVED.

Ken, I disagree with you that we are better off today than at any other time in history. The '80's were better than the '90's... IMHO. And the decline is just beginning... Maybe we will meet up in ten years and see who is right...

I see way too many zombie-people anymore... Everywhere I go.

Who really knows about anything? I know one thing... Like my proverbial internet facade illustrates; Look to the dog... The most perfect example in creation of unconditional love... your creators love (I hope).

And these will be considered the "good old days" some day. Oh boy, I can hardly wait... : |

Ok, I am done... NEXT! (tail waggin' FIERCELY)

Punctuation police... bite me.

sniffin' the neighbor...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 17, 2000


My Dear Mr. Dog,

Sir you have posed a complicated; yet simple question. What do I believe in?

Perhaps I could be called a fundimentalist christian? But then. they would not have me; ( or probably I them). Do I believe in God? With fierce reverence I Most Certainly Do! But I do not believe that there is one specfic way into heaven. Save be it by the Son.

The bible can be; and has been read many different ways. I believe that it's wording was placed thusly for that specfic reason. What I read and understand in the bible; and another (s) reads and understands are completey different. Why it was written in this manner? I do not know. But I do know this..

That every person much find their way; their truth. And I have enough trouble keeping my skirts clean, with out "worrying" about how another person is finding their way....

And incidently...Y2K is still paying it's self out. And the score is not all in yet...

"As for me...I shall finish the Game"!


-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), May 18, 2000.

Dog, you're really starting to scare me. You're the first on this forum that I've seen (apoligies to others) who thinks of God/creator as do I. The gift of awareness is given and what you do with it is up to you. No recriminations if you fuck up and no award ceremony for outstanding achievment. *Here's the game. Go have fun and try not to embarass yourself, or Me.*

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 18, 2000.


In fact, he basically bet him that he would convert all his creation to his own minions.

I always wondered how anyone who studied the Bible could miss this belief.

We haven't missed it. In Matthew 7:13-14 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 18, 2000.

I will weigh in on this thread, I promise. It is after all the subject most near & dear to my heart. But work comes before play, and duty calls.

I'll be interested to read what's in each of your hearts, what each has experienced. To what degrees do experience & faith play a role in your over all philosophy?

Gotta go.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 18, 2000.

I Believe in Him,

IMHO, the narrow gate is not the door of a man-made church. God's cathedral is earth. Before I wax philosophical/religious again, I want to hear from the "unwashed masses"...

(rant off)

Uncle Deedah... good lookin' man. Not what I expected. ; ) Please chime in any time. (Of course I am not what I expected either...;| )

scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

does being a''good person save you'' or does CHRIST, & FAITH IN HIM.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 18, 2000.

Faith in Jesus Christ? OK I will bite. Jesus Christ was an example, nothing more. He was the pentitent man, a bench mark. Should I worship him instead of HIS creator? Ponderings...


The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

Shakey Sir, glad to see your handle. Did you catch the other nights news about some "cracker" going down, unexpectedly? Gas prices have gone down, only to start a silent rise. I still have my air conditioned stock of staples. Maybe I am saving them for my grown kids whose livelihood factors in, gas prices. I hope for the day when and if, I can load my staples and give them to the local food kitchen. What a happy day, that will be. Mr. Dog, not to ignore your post, I am not a regular Church Going persona. My God does not necessarily live in that building. And I am not a Heathen because I do not attend Church. My God, is an awesome God, He reigns on Heaven and Earth. Now, if my skin experience could only find the strength to deal with my "skin life" problems.

-- Instant (bre@kfast.com), May 18, 2000.


I know that I have jousted with the fundies here and spoken much about what I do not believe, yours is a much harder question.

These thoughts may come out disjointed, forgive me, I'm tired.

I don't know about heaven or hell, I don't know if Jesus was the son of God, and I don't believe all of the fairy tales in the Bible, hell I don't believe any of what I consider the fairy tales in the Bible. The sun stayed out for 24 hrs while God's side kicked the crap out of the other guys? Please. Noah and the Ark? Oh my. Where did all of that water go? And why didn't Jesus rise up to heaven while he was on the cross, with everybody watching? I figure if ya want converts that would be the way to go, something big in front of everybody.


I believe that I will be repaid in kind. If I am a prick I will get prickly rewards. If I am good I may not be rewarded, except for the inner peace that being good, or doing good, brings when nobody else is watching. Hell, even if I am good all of the time I might get shit on, but I know that in my heart I did the right thing. As to where that may lead me after I die I do not know. Some of the richest guys are real pricks, how is that fair in the sense of Karma? I do not know how that fits in. But I do know that if I go to hell I will be surrounded by folks like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Scary huh? I follow my heart as best I can, and if God cannot forgive me for being human it is HIS fault, not mine.

But I ain't going to hell, and all of the fundies who will quote chapter and verse to prove me wrong can bite me.

Ooops, I take that back. Sorry. You folks have your ideas, I have mine.

Actually Dog, I think that humans will never be able to encompass it all, the spirital world is too unknowable. But the spark inside of what is right and wrong is a decent guide in the meantime.

Ah, well, I think Jimminy Cricket said it best, don't you think?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 18, 2000.

Naw, you said it better than Jimminy.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 19, 2000.

An aside Unk,

When the Mediterranean sea broke through the Bosporus strait it created one hell of an at least year long flood for the native folk in the region and resulted in the formation of the Black Sea. Figure arround the end of the last Ice age, 12,000 years ago or so. If true, ya gotta give credit to the handers down of legend cuz there was one hell of a lot of water coming through and somebody told their grandkid about it, and so on.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 19, 2000.


I don't think I have ever really weighed in,except for making a prayer request,anything taken from that was purely by inference.But here goes; as simply as a complex question can be answered.

I believe in God.

I believe Jesus is Gods' son.

I believe Jesus died for and covered my sins.

I know I'm a sinner,I know God knows I'm a sinner.(and allways will be)

God knew I would sin,but Jesus saved me from the ultimate punishment and gave me eternal life,unless I totally reject the GOD code ie. be cool,be most excellent to your fellow man,living in a loving state of mind.

I believe the Bible has been tinkered with by the Evil Ones.

I DO NOT believe in organized religion.

A CHURCH is not a building,THE CHURCH is everywhere,those who would confine GOD into such a small box cannot comprehend GOD.Tbe best church I ever attended was on an ol' wooden bridge,fishin',it was there that God helped me through the darkness.It was simply unmistakable,as was a dream that soon followed,but it never happened in a church.

I believe I am attempting to make it to heaven,everyday I'm alive I'm pursuing a road to heaven and with alot of help and from my beliefs/ actions that is where I will park my ass.

This is the way I believe,I will probably not *debate* this with anyone but *discussion* is possible,maybe.I actually try and stay away from these threads but felt inclined.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 19, 2000.


Very glad to hear your view. Thanks.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 19, 2000.


IMHO, the narrow gate is not the door of a man-made church.

I agree. The true gate is Jesus Christ, NOT a church

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 19, 2000.

Hi Dog,

I'm Jewish, but not in the Biblical sense. I was raised (by Jewish parents) with some of the Jewish traditions, but God was never mentioned in our home (except as part of a tradition, e.g., a prayer), mostly because of the Holocaust.

With respect to God -- I've been very close to agnosticism, but now I'm rather deistic. Deism is believe in God based on reason and nature alone, with no supernatural revelation. My morality also comes from nature (God-given nature, so in that sense indirectly from God), where my standard -- an objective standard -- is human life. It's good if it favors human life; bad if it's against it. And individual rights flow right from this: the rights to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness -- because all those rights are necessary aspects of the right to life.

From this, I think you could say that I'm pretty much a Jewish Deist.

I know this is so condensed that it may not be clear to many, but hopefully you have a hint of where I'm comin' from.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 19, 2000.

I love this... please carry on.

I Believe in Him, Faith is the narrow gate... IMHO, faith IN a higher power.

waggin' tail patiently...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

IN THE Beginning man created God in his own image, and saw that it was good. For God commanded man to go out and prosper. Subdue his enemies, enslave his neighbors, annihilate those who were different. Man obeyed and did prosper, for he killed the enemy, captured the slave, took the property, gave the glory to God. And he created Heaven for himself, and Hell for his enemy.

And it was that man could know God, and man could have communion with Him, could aspire to Paradise. Even the unworthy, even the unclean. So man sought the mind of God, and set forth His Law. Carnate man could become righteous by the Law. Blood-stained hands could become clean by the Law. Hatred could become justified. Man could become himself, Holy. And God took note of the worthy and of the unworthy. And greed excelled become the sign of His favor.

But it came to pass that man changed. The Law had become too burdensome, the elite too few, the rich, too rich. So God was created anew. One came who broke the Law, who loved the tax-gatherer, who touched the leper, who embraced the whore. And man loved Him and his words, and it was good.

But man could not live by love alone. He must have Law, he must have doctrine, he must have, Religion. So man created Religion, and worshiped as well, Dogma, and Prejudice, and Righteousness.

Then Religion, the creature of man, recreated God yet again, in It's image. And It was Good. Man loved Religion, and carried God with him, to war, to industry, to halls of government. And man prospered with God. He subdued the earth with His command, exploited the animals with His wisdom. He slaughtered the infidel, burned the witch, enslaved the weak, and poisoned the poor, with His blessing.

And Greed and God were One, and it was Good. And Religion prospered.


-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), May 19, 2000.

Oh boy. Ouch!

Must we dredge up old news, Lon. This is the Age of Aquarius, man. Or is it Kali Yuga? The end times? The Anti-Christ?

You do have a point though.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 19, 2000.

I regard formal religion as irrelevant. It's possible (and much easier, IMO) to live a full and meaningful life *without* the meddlesome encrustations of formal religious dogma.

I regard most religious texts (like the Bible) as mostly fiction and sermonizing, with some historical value. But on the whole, less dense than Shakespeare for insightful observations.

I feel a bit sorry for those whose view of a complex reality has been fatally stunted by cookbook dogmatic irrelevance. There are none so blind as the religious blind, because nothing closes the eyes so tightly as "seeing the light". By now, we all know what it means to "get it", in terms of being either accurate or persuadable.

So Dog reflects my attitude toward the religious folks perfectly when he writes "nothing to see here, move along". Amen, brother.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 19, 2000.

Flint, you said,

I feel a bit sorry for those whose view of a complex reality has been fatally stunted by cookbook dogmatic irrelevance.

I know exactly what you mean. I too feel sorry for people who can't see the big picture, but only see the physical reality in front of their noses. They are truly, "blocks, stones, worse than senseless things."


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 19, 2000.

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