Phillips..scored 30 goals in 3,197 minutes of play...= 106 mins / goal WGB....scored 23 goals in 3,238 minutes of play....= 140 mins / goal Porn Star...scored 20 goals in 2,554 minutes of play = 127 mins / goal AC..scored 19 goals in 1,947 minutes of play...=102 mins / goal

Scholes...21 England caps...9 goals OWEN..18 England caps...5 goals Fowler..11 England caps...2 goals Heskey...5 England caps...0 goals Phillips....3 England caps...0 goals AC....7 England caps...0 goals

I suggest that Coles PL record is by far the best...and on the International scene he's no worse than ANY of them.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Answers

You can get statistics to say whatever you want and you KNOW IT...

Tell me with your hand on your heart that you think AC is a better striker than AS.....do you seriously really believe it?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Mmmmm 1st set of stats....AC certainly has a good record..do you have the stats for the last five seasons,which I think may give a better indication.

I assume by your admission of Shearer from the International stats that you admit he is No.1, and AC is competing with the rest?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Gav...my point...or argument isn't whether AC is better than WGB at all. But when Screach says things like " x player could be mistaken for Cole" because he "missed", I like to point out that he doesn't actually "miss" as much as folk around the country would have us believe. Another statistic that I put up here a while ago was one that showed AC's scoring percentage over shots taken was THE HIGHEST in the PL...something like 66% scored from attempts...at the time.

Hand on my heart?....yes I believe Andy Cole is not only a better goal scorer tha WGB but also a better footballer.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

You could be right that he doesn't miss as much as everyone thinks....but when he misses them he misses them big style! it's also possible that they're shown more cos he's got himself a name for it..

If you say that you really believe it then I'll believe you....I really can't see how you can see it though.....I don't suppose we'll ever get anywhere near an agreement on this :))

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

DB..I left WGB out of the 2nd set of stats because I was merely attempting to show that in the limited amount of games the srtikers have had...they are all about the same....yet it's only AC who get's levelled "the shit one". If they all had the number of games under their belts as Shearer did then we could really see who performs and who doesn't.

Ya gotta remember also that my man Cole has started MOST of his 7 game s well over halfway through the 90 mins.

Gav argues that we can get statistics to say owt....true...but it's bloody statistics that you all use to bring a man down....and false ones at that. How many times have I heard that AC misses more than he scores?....shed-loads...but it's just NOT true. How many times have I haerd the accusation that AC only scores because of the service he gets?...shed-loads...but again this is tosh. Most of AC's goals are made by himself and NOT the crossing of Beckham or Giggs.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

not true, LR. All your forwards are made to look exceptionally good by the players around them. I read that Roy Keane had put 1425 passes forward to strikers this season. THAT is service.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

furthermore, OPTA suggests that Nicky Butt is a good player. is he?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Lanky.....your talking bollox again mate!

You post stats saying that A has scored B goals in C number of minutes of play giving a return of D minutes per goal and that as a result, one is a better stiker than another, but then when it pointed out that you can make stats say whatever you want, you counter by saying that Gav didn't read or understand the original posting and that what you meant was XYZ and that you posted this because Screacher had said such and such......what a heap of old cr@p!

Right, so Old King's goal return per number of minutes is better that others, but what you specifically omitted from your arguement was how many attempts on goal they had each made in that same time scale.

3 games = 270 minutes of play. Al and Cole play in all three games and each score three goals in total.....ergo, in you figures 1 goal every 90 minutes. However, in those games Al has three attempts on goal and scores each time but AC has nine attempts per game, 27 in total and scores three of thre of them.....who then is the most prolific and who couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

As has been stated.......YOU CAN MAKE STATISTICS SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Bollox Douggie....in that case ANY kick out by the keeper IS service to the strikers. That's Keano's job....just as swinging in crosses is Bex's job...but it's Yorke that gets on most of them.

If you still want to argue this one...I would then suggest that it's Cole's "new improved all round game" and therefore his positioning and timimg of runs that allows Keane the luxury to play 3 billion forward passes....or whatever it is.

Is Nicky Butt a good player?.....dunno...how many medals does he have? :-)

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Yes, but why has Andy Cole not played as much as Shearer? Injuries? No, not really. It's because of his attitude, and the constant need to make sure he doesn't get too big for his boots. Ferguson manages him well, but an international manager doesn't have the same luxuries afforded to him.

And as for there not being much in it regarding international performances, I would say there's a huge difference between 9 goals in 21, or 5 in 18, and 0 in 7. And when you take into account the ineffectual nature of the 7 caps it adds even more to the argument against him. I'd put Cole on a par with Fowler and Phillips, but behind Owen and Heskey, who although the latter two look uninspired at the moment, they have both turned it on in the England shirt before. I genuinely think Cole is a top class player, but he hasn't taken the limited chances he's had to prove himself - others have. He'll probably get some more chances, and who knows...but no way does he deserve to be included as first choice by right, as he thinks himself, seemingly.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Ahem! That 66% is about the number of shots on target that actually go in.

Cole hits the corner flag, the program-seller, Mr Lang Pi Chin with his bag of crisps in Row Z and these are bafflingly excluded from the workings of the statistic marked "completion rate".

Meanwhile, Alan hits back of the net or goalkeeper on 90% of his strikes and he's the 'worse finisher'. Laughable! It also excludes Shearer's penalties, despite the fact that these are mostly caused by terrified defenders bringing the England Number 9 down because they can't afford to let him loose in the box. Players are encouraged to offer Cole the chance to shoot, just to concentrate on not letting him pass it to Yorke. That's why Yorke's goal-tally is down this season; we all know who the real danderman is :-)

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Windy...go and have a close look at Heskey's recent goal scoring record?....for Leicester, Liverpool and England...you'll find that it is fact quite SHIT. Not like a strikers at all. He did a few good things in one England game..a la Owen.."scared" the defence with one or two powerful runs but that was all really...and we all got hyped up over the guy.

Again you seem to be on the Magical Mythical Tour mate...just what do u mean about the manner in which AC's 7 performances were played out??

I remeber him in ONE game only having a bad day and "missing" and every Engalnd player that day was crap...including WGB...and in one of England's last games..if not the last, AC came on as sub...again...and had the ONLY on-target shot on goal all day from an England player. Get of the bus mate...it's runniny away to fairy-land :-)

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Feck off Softie..total garbage :-)

Haven't you got nappies to buy or summat? :-)

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Seems like I hit your sensitive spot LR, eh? Sorry. Nah, not really. AC is up there to be shot down like the rest. I think he's a good player but not convinced he's England class. I'd like him to prove me wrong, but somehow........

On your gigures, it seems that Scholes is a better striker than any of the other Internationals named - yet Scholes plays in midfield. Doesn't say a lot for them then does it?

On last night's performance, Fowler isn't ready. I doubt if he will be by the Championships, and I'm not sure KK will pick him. Too much of a risk. I also doubt whether Cole will figure in many games if he goes. I think KK might choose KP ahead of him. As for the fourth striker, unless KK wants another in the Shearer mould then I wouldn't take Heskey. Cole, Phillips and Owen would be ahead in my book. It'll probably be Shearer, Owen, Phillips then Cole, in that order.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

I'm not saying that Heskey is a proven goal scorer. But he's done more to impress that Cole in any of his games, and therefore earned himself the chance for another go. Still huge question marks over his ability to score, sure. Owen, too, is not a certainty, never said he was. And their success is limited in comparison to the consistency shown by Shearer over the years. But the little that Owen and to an extent Heskey (very early days) have shown is more than has been shown by Cole, whatever excuses he might have. FAct and not a bandwagon in sight. I'm not actually anti Andy Cole, and still feel he might make the grade, but the competition is fierce and others have taken lead on him. Keegan'll will give him another showing, but if he underperforms again then what can you say? Seems to me that he thinks the team should be built around him, and play to his strengths, hence his lacklustre performances.......sorry mate, but doesn't wash with me.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Alan Shearer's Keegan's No.1, Alan Shearer's England's No.1. The rest are fighting for a number two spot. When the sh*t hits the fan and you need one man to put the ball in the back of the net in an INTERNATIONAL game there is no-one who knows how to do it better than Shearer.

Even his U21 record was outstanding 13 goals in 11 games. Has AC ever scored in U21, U23 matches to suggest he had it in INTERNATIONAL games?

I would agree that AC's record is more impressive than most but for some reason he doesn't instill confidence. He whinges about getting in the team when he should stick to what he does best sticking the ball in the net, he has a point but it isn't helping him by whinging to the press about it.

The rest of the best have hardly been in outstanding form this season but Owen and Fowler have been injured for ages. Heskey's advantage is that he's big and quick, which suits Shearer.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Bottom line:

Andy Cole is a GOOD player.....when he was with us he was a great player, but we saw the best of him and KK knew exactly what he was doing when he disposed of him.

As far as International capacity is concerned he is a no go, complete 100% under achiever, exactly like Tiswis and to a degree the same as Mick 'Horseyboy' Chinchan......should have been and could have been great, but should's and could's cannot be considered when you are looking to win on the higher stage

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Oi, LR

If you're suggesting AC should be in the England team ahead of AS then I'm afraid you're rolling a turd uphill on here - and talking total bollox! However, if you're simply saying Andy is a good PL striker then there's no argument.
AC was a fantastic striker when he was at the Toon. He was lightning fast, and a totally instinctive striker who put a high % of his chances in the net - most of them created by Peter Beardsley. AC didn't contribute a great deal in general play, but to be honest he didn't need to. For whatever reason - and various theories have been put forward (I prefer to believe it was simply the shin splints injuries had suffered) - he "lost it", and at the time you're lot bought him we may as well have been playing with ten men - and I'm not just saying that to provoke you.
Having come through a rough spell at the outset of his career at OT, AC has come back a better all round footballer, and one who makes a much greater contribution to the team, including as you say, making some chances for himself. He is undoubtedly a good PL player, however he is absolutely not the same instinctive striker we knew at SJP, and his strike rate is nowhere near as good.
I truly believe that if AS had joined your lot instead of making the sentimental decision to 'come home', he would scored an absolute hatful with the service and support he would have received. Despite suffering two serious injuries since his homecoming, he has scored something like 85 goals in 150 goals in a Toon team that has struggled in each of the seasons he has been here, with inadequate support and less than fully adequate service. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind he would scored many more than AC has done during the same period, and could well have bagged 120 goals in the same 150 games. Why? Because he's a better finisher than AC has become.
I would actually agree with you that AC hasn't had a real opportunity to show his potential for England - simply because AS has deservedly kept him out. You can't play them both, it's one or the other, and AS has been the correct choice.
IMO, AC is the most likely replacement for AS in the England team, and when AS retires after Euro2000 England should provide him with the chance to show it by giving him an extended run in the team, and thereby a realistic opportunity to make the position his own.
I actually expect KK to do just that - AC will be AS's stand-in during Euro2000, and then replace him. Good luck to him - Englands WC qualification could very well depend on him.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Oi Smiler

I ain't dissin' WGB here. I'm defending with the use of no-argument statistics Andy Coles goal scoring ability. Take away the Urbam Myth and anti-Yewnited sentiment and you have not just a "good" PL striker....but one of the best. Remember that Yewnited play a 4 striker rotational system that woul probably throw a lot of strikers off their game. Had Andy Cole started 38 league games this season then he'd've scored 30+.........IMHO.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

If Andy Cole would have scored 30+ had he played more, then the rotation system is a farce. Alex Ferguson obviously doesn't think Cole would have maintained that consistency, otherwise he would have been a constant in the side.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

LR,

I AM dissin' Alan Shearer here, as well as AC. NUFC have played a one striker rotation system for three seasons since flogging Sir Les that would have left most other strikers utterly knackered, not to mention totally bemused and demoralised. AS has shouldered that burden - MAGNIFICENTLY - while putting up with a damned sight more cr@p than AC.

No one should doubt that AS is a bloody marvel, as well as Englands' undisputed No.1. When he retires soon from the England scene I for one sincerely hope AC - undoubtedly one of the best PL strikers - is able to fully fill his boots. Engerlund expects and all that.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

What about number of chances missed AC must have the worst ratio of goals scored to chances missed

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Syme...you've obviously studdied all of United's games so why don't you tell me how many Andy misses as opposed to how many he scores.

Anyway???...so feckin' what.....if we have a striker who gets in a position that he can afford 150 attempts on goal is that a bad thing?...well...is it?

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

LR I've said it before but AC depends far on his relationship with fellow strikers than others. He needs to have a provider on his left shoulder, but granted when he does get that (Beardo/Yorke) he is the business. Cannot agree about your AC - AS thoughts/theories.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

I thought Keegan had lost his marbles getting shot of Andy Cole, and I'd far rather he'd have stayed and WE'D had to sort out his splint problem - if that was the reason he went. It would have been a lot cheaper and quicker than sorting out DF.

Whether or not we could/would have signed Shearer and how they'd have coped with Dalglish and Gullit is a moot point. It's all in the past anyway so all we can do is speculate.

I think Clarky is right though that Andy Cole will take over from Shearer for Engerland, and I hope he does cos I still think he's a great centre forward.

LR is right saying that it doesn't matter how many chances he misses as long as some keep going in. He's doing his job then. The memory of that season of the 40 odd goals or whatever it was, is still enough for me not to slag him off. Once that memory means nowt, I might climb aboard, although I think at the moment, Shearer shades it.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000