How can EVERYONE be save?

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It was reported the other day that India now has a population of 1 billion people. There are an estimated 6 billion people in the world. According to most christians, If you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior you will be sent to hell. One of the main issues I have with this theology is: what about those who never hear the good word? Will there EVER be enough missionaries to reach EVERYONE, so that EVERYONE has a choice?

I would like to see a direct quote from the people which specifically deals with the issue of people who may never hear this "good word"-I do not think there are any-the people of the time could not have had a notion that at some time in the future there would be 6 billion people on the planet.

Anything other than a direct quote is not acceptable. One of the more logically corrupt things that the christian posters I have seen and other christians I have met do, is answer most questions with direct quotes, but then when faced with an unanswerable question, they take to stating or inferring what they THINK the bible says.

If the bible is the only truth, and if it is the only reference book in spiritual matters, waht can we say for those who will never read it?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 17, 2000

Answers

FS:

Dunno about other religions but the Roman Catholic doctrine is pretty clear - if you've never had the teachings of Christianity but lived a moral life according to whatever religion you were practicing you still get to heaven. Always seemed like one of the few Catholic teachings that the nuns imparted to me that made sense.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), May 17, 2000.


For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- His eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans, 1:20 NIV

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), May 17, 2000.

FS, you said,

According to most christians, If you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior you will be sent to hell.

Our definition of "Christians" is different it seems. To me a "Christian" lets GOD be the judge of who goes to Heaven and Hell.

You also said,

If the bible is the only truth

I believe that you are referring to *spiritual matters*, and will answer as such. While a fundamentalist protestant may agree with your statement, Catholics for example believe that *Sacred Tradition* is also important as a guide to the truth. For a quote try 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6. Personally, I think that the continuity of the church is important, as if each person is interpretting the Bible in their own way, everyone can come up with different answers, even nutty ones like Jim Jones did.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 17, 2000.


FS, oops, forgot to answer your question :-(,

Anyway, assuming you'll buy in to the *sacred tradition* argument above, here's a quote from the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding your question (long, but probably worth it):

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[338]

Also, here's a Link to the catechism if you want to look up anything else.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 17, 2000.


Big sigh,

Time for me to get to sleep, try this Link it gets you to the beginning, then use the search engine, as it's a *long* book.

Good Night,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 17, 2000.



The answer should be obvious. The Bible is not the word of God, it is a book of lies. God's children do not need to follow the advice of a book in order to experience Heaven, we need only to trust the guidance of our divine souls. Hell exists only within our minds, it is what we experience when we allow our minds to contradict our soul, hopelessly seeking happiness in external material things, when it has been within us all along.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 17, 2000.

Hawk: I dont believe you can prove that no more than I can disprove it. I only 'wished' you were right. And pray you are...

No, I cant disprove it either, BTW. I was taught to believe the bible was THE WORD of God. Hell/fear, go hand in hand.

Sorry FS, I just dont have the answers for you. Perhaps al-d can help?

Wanna sandwrestle?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 17, 2000.


FutureShock According to most christians, If you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior you will be sent to hell.

Someone Our definition of "Christians" is different it seems. To me a "Christian" lets GOD be the judge of who goes to Heaven and Hell.

He already has judged...:Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."Acts 4:12...and here:For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23...and here: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9...and here: for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13

And finally: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

-- Gods Judgement is Written (In the Bible@Read it.com), May 17, 2000.


Futureshock God loves you and wants you to experience peace and life- abundant and eternal.

"I have come that they may have life, and they may have it more abundanyly." John 10:10

God created us in his own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us as robots to automatically love and obey Him. God gave us a will and freedom of choice.

We chose to disobey God and go our own willful way. We still make this choice today. This results in seperation from God.

" for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

People have tried in many ways to bridge this gap between themselves and God...

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12

" But your iniquities have seperated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear." Isiah 59:2

People (sinful) God (holy)

only one bridge reaches God

Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people.

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1Timothy 2:5

"For Christ died for sins once and for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God." 1 Peter 3:18

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

God has provided the only way,each person must make a choice.

People (sinful____________CHRIST____________________God (holy)

We must trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and recieve Him by personal invitation.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

"Yet to all who recieved him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become th children of God." John 1:12

"That if you confess with your mouth,'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that god raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

Where are you?

Here? or Here?

People________________Christ________________God

sin Peace

Rebellion Forgiveness

seperation abundant life

Eternal Life

-- (in@the.bible), May 17, 2000.


Thank you for linking me to "Conversations with God", Hawk. I am going to go to my local Barnes and Noble today and buy it. (You make much more sense than the hardliners.)

-- (I @m all .smiles), May 17, 2000.


Hawk/all smiles,

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), May 17, 2000.

"but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

What are you being "saved" from?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 17, 2000.


What are you being "saved" from? An eternal life in the lake of fire with non believers.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 17, 2000.

Hey I Believe,

Long time no see, how ya doin'?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocnets.cam), May 17, 2000.


Here we go again...

In the ancient Hebrew texts, Jesus was strung up on a "stauros" (stake). The word "cross" replaced "stauros" at a later date along with the triad (father, son, holy ghost) references. I remember two of the names of the THREE Babylonian gods of the time. I know one was Nimrod, I think another was Bacchus (Ken you old dog). The name of the last one escapes me. It was a she, or the mother.

It is amazing that none of you question the good book, especially all the revisions made to it. KJ was the worst...

I personally think God (Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, Yeshua, you favorite here) has nothing to do with the Bible. I think the book is an accounting of events with tidbits here and there, nothing more. Who knows, Satan could have had the books written. Remember he was God's right hand man until he was caught in his subversiveness. Second in command. One bright angel before he was overthrown and tossed down to the earth along with his minions. He was a demi-god. Do you think he couldn't deceive you? He could do so easily, and does. He is the god of the world, even the "bible" says so...

You can keep your religion... I have one of my own thank you...

growlin' at the JW...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 17, 2000.



We are so speciocentric. What if there proves to be intelligent life on other worlds? How does Christianity relate? By definition, these aliens would have the same Creator as we do. Would they have the same Savior? Did Jesus die for their sins too? Maybe God sent a different Savior to each world. If they look very different from us, then in whose image were they created?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 17, 2000.

Hiya Frank! I've been well, doing my part to spread the good news, dontcha know?

Nice to hear from you again, blessings....

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 17, 2000.


"What are you being "saved" from? An eternal life in the lake of fire with non believers."

Why am I not suprised! That sounds like a typical Bible-thumper response. The question is, what are you talking about? Can you be more specific? (Keep in mind, I AM a believer in God, but I don't believe in man-made lies.)

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 17, 2000.


What if there proves...Well, I don't see any problem as far as my having/placing my faith in Jesus and there being the possibility of life elsewhere.

If they look very different from us, then in whose image were they created? I think you'll need to ask God as you say if you get the chance.

There are things we don't need to say if about and that is the Bible says God sent His only son to die for our sin so we could have eternal life with Him. There is a charge however, and that is accepting what Jesus did for us on the cross and asking His forgiveness for making things such a mess in our own lives.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 17, 2000.


Can you be more specific? (Keep in mind, I AM a believer in God, but I don't believe in man-made lies

Hawk, your god, and my God have very little in common. Not unlike the god you believe in, one needs faith to believe in the God of Moses. You have none, so you don't believe. I happen to believe it takes more faith on your part to believe in the god you do, when you have all of creation staring you in the face. The level of faith you have I will never have, I admire your commitment however misguided I may feel it to be.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 17, 2000.


Hello everyone:

I have been in meetings all day and I have a meeting tonight. For those of you who have been waiting for my responses, they will not come until 11:00 tonight. Until then, thanks to Hawk for presenting part of my views.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 17, 2000.


"Hawk, your god, and my God have very little in common. Not unlike the god you believe in, one needs faith to believe in the God of Moses. You have none, so you don't believe. I happen to believe it takes more faith on your part to believe in the god you do, when you have all of creation staring you in the face. The level of faith you have I will never have, I admire your commitment however misguided I may feel it to be."

How dare you! I believe in THE God, the only God there is, the All, the Everything, the Is, the Now, and the Never Was. I have all of creation staring me in the face, and I know that We Are Part of God in His creation. I believe that God's creation tells us a lot more about who God is than the mere words written BY PHYSICAL MEN in a PHYSICAL BOOK. You can go around telling everyone else that we were "born sinners" and that we have no faith, but that is a LIE. God has given us the power to create Heaven on Earth, NOW, yet you choose to live in fear, thinking that you are not worthy of Heaven until AFTER you die. The lesson that Jesus tried to teach us was that We Are Gods, and that we have the power of divine beings, IN THIS LIFE, he said nothing about waiting until we die! You create your own hell because you choose THOUGHTS of FEAR, rather than ACTIONS of LOVE. Wake up! Heaven is "nowhere"... or in other words, "now" and "here".

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 17, 2000.


An eternal life in the everlasting, molten lake of hell fire, or variations thereof, was a phase I heard all the time I was growing up and attending the Southern Baptist Church. I decided early on that the idea of a god who would do that wasn't for me. I decided that no matter what I was taught--that the bible WAS the TRUTH-- I wasn't buying it. I've always been the pest who constantly asked WHY. How DO YOU KNOW THAT, or WHY WOULD GOD DO THAT?

My dad said I should doubt everything I heard that didn't feel right. When I told him joining the church, meaning in this instance being saved, didn't feel right, and I didn't want to do it, he said I should do what felt right to me. I didn't join. I was not saved. I did not accept Jesus Christ as my savior, or to my way of thinking, my ticket to eternal life in heaven. My mother was in a tizzy, and I lived with her blasted, nagging, tizzy until I left home.

Gawwd, how I hate that phrase "eternal hell fire." What a bunch of blackmailing bullshit. I don't give a hoot about the Catechism, The Book of Mormon, Power for Living, The KJ Version of the Bible, Watchtower, The Dead Sea Scrolls, Awake, Good News for Modern Man or any of the rest of that dogmatic crap.

As someone said, "Those who believe in hell are already the devil's own."

And if I'm wrong--well, frankly I don't give a shit.

I've only found one belief that appeals to me, and that's because I felt that way anyway, long before I ever heard of Pantheism. You do not have to join. You do not have to accept a savior. You do not have to fear hell. You do not have to tithe, pray, repent, be on a church committee, go to meetings or worship a higher power. You do not have to be saved from the eternal lake of hellfire.

All you do is to appreciate and love this wonderful planet and universe of ours, which I've always done and always will do. And I don't worry about the saving and redemption of my poor little soul, or I whether I will go to heaven.

I am not bashing religion of which I've so often been accused. This is my personal beliefs. If your personal beliefs comfort you, then I think that fine. But being raised in the Christian religion did nothing but fill me with FUD (fear, uncertainty and doom) and make me feel that I was being blackmailed into believing something I did not and could not believe in.

So please don't start a harangue with me about religion. This is my personal opinion; I live with it quite well, and I have every right to believe as I choose without having a lot of bible passages or testimonies thrown at me. I've heard them all a thousand times before.

"If the bible is the only truth, and if it is the only reference book in spiritual matters, what can we say for those who will never read it?" Well I can say that they are damned lucky they never had to listen to all the sin, and propaganda that old men wrote in a primitive time."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 17, 2000.


Well said Gilda, I totally agree. I have total faith in God when I believe what my soul tells me, not what others say. I do not wish to bash religions either, but merely make them aware that they are lost souls, being mislead by manipulative lies, and that they will be far happier to trust their God-given soul. One thing that really annoys me is this notion that as soon as an infant is born into this world, it is a "sinner", and must spend the rest of life in penance for doing nothing wrong. Children are innocent until religions start telling them what they can and cannot do, and judging them according to their rules, lies which they claim to be the word of God. Many children instinctively rebel against this, because they know it is wrong to be limited in such a way, and told that we are powerless.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 17, 2000.

Amen Gilda, Hawk...

I find it interesting that a "heavenly father" would burn you eternally. A loving father, corporeal or not would not "torture" (burning in fire) any of his children, no matter how misbehaved they were. I know I wouldn't with my kids...

Sounds like these people who believe in in "fire and brimstone" and "eternal damnation" are worshipping the wrong (demi) god... The king of the earth (read Satan) would do things like that to his followers just because he can... Yeah, the ol' former "second in command" (read Scratch) would do that... He would also slam you with guilt, deceive you in every possible way and try to get you to convert new followers.

Is any of this sinking in people? Am I making myself clear?

To take a quote from the Bible, not that I do that a lot...

"For he knows he only has a short time..."

growlin' at the JW...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), May 17, 2000.


Hawk---

Altho I agree with you on many things, I have heap big trouble with a couple.

You said: "God has given us the power to create Heaven on Earth." I couldn't disagree more. That idea has led to some of the great totalitarian social experiments of the 20th century. I hope such thinking died with Lenin, Hitler and Mao but probably not. There will always be those who are gonna make things perfect for us even if they have to kill us to do it.

Later you said: "Children are innocent until religions start telling them......" The way I see it, children as born helpless but not innocent. I even think that some are born evil and that most are born amoral and must be taught to live morally, not by appetites alone. Whaddya know, sometimes religion even helps us to learn how to do this.

-- (lars@indy.net), May 17, 2000.


>Two bees ran into each other. One asked the other how things were going. > >"Really bad," said the second bee, "the weather has been really wet and damp >and there aren't any flowers or pollen, so I can't make any honey." > >"No problem," said the first bee, "Just fly down five blocks and turn left >and keep going until you see all the cars. There's a Bar Mitzvah going on >and there are all kinds of fresh flowers and fresh fruit." > >"Thanks for the tip" said the second bee and flew away. > >A few hours later the two bees ran into each other again and the first bee >asked, "How'd it go?" > >"Fine," said the second bee, "It was everything you said it would be." > >"Uh, what's that thing on your head?" asked the first bee. > >"That's my yarmulke," said the second bee, "I didn't want them to think I >was a wasp."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 17, 2000.

"The way I see it, children as born helpless but not innocent."

That is amazing. It appears that religion has done a very thorough job of brainwashing you.

Could you tell us what a newborn child is "guilty" of, if it isn't innocent?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 17, 2000.


Hey Lars ---

As the Oracle said, "this will really bake your noodle"! I agree that Hitler, Stalin and the like were intrinsically evil from my point of view. But they weren't trying to be Gods -- they were trying to be the Creator. In my mind, there is a difference....

Hey, let me say that I am appreciating this forum more and more now...on the 'other' board (you know the one), you talk against 'the group' and you get ridiculed, put down, talked about, and if you continue to persist with your views -- they yell to Yourdon to throw you out...Ask Hawk about that!!!

Hawk, I read your post all the time -- you got guts!

-- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom.com), May 17, 2000.


Hawk, this is one of the things I hated when people were trying to talk us young kids into being "saved." I heard too often that I was a sinner--born in sin--and "HE" died for my sins, so that I might enter the Kingdom of God. ." This really upset me, for I didn't think I was a sinner, and I hadn't asked anyone to die for me, or my supposed sins. It still makes me mad to hear this guilt trip laid on kids. Scare the shit out of little kids with hellfire and damnation, then make them feel guilty for being born. What an obscenity! And why are they born in sin??? Oh my Gawwwwwd!! Their parents had sex and that makes the babies sinners. That is just plain horrible. Little babies don't ask to be here, and adults are just doing what comes naturally, and in my opinion it is not a sin, never has been a sin and never will be a sin.

And as far as what Lars said, "some are born evil and most are born amoral and must be taught to live morally..." Bull Feathers! As the song from South Pacific by Rogers and Hammerstein goes, "You've got to be taught to hate and fear, You've got to be taught from year to year, It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear, You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid, of people Whose eyes are oddly made, and people whose skin is a diff'rent shade. You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate. You've got to be carefully taught.

I remember when I was about 8 or 9 riding from Sunday School with a nice old couple one Sunday when my folks couldn't go. We'd had a lesson in Sunday School about God making us and all the creatures and how he loved them too. I thought that was nice, for I loved all critters. On the way home, an o'possum was crossing the road with lots of babies hanging onto her tail, on her back. That old devil swerved across the road and tried to kill her. When his wife asked what made him do that, he said he's always hated 'possums and never missed a chance to kiill one. Luckily he missed her. But I hated him that day, and from then on. And in my child's mind, I knew he had done a bad thing. This was one of my early lessons in what hypocrites Christians were. And there was the the old lady who went around singing "Precious Memories" and drowned cats in a bucket of water, and told me very confidentially that God hated black people. I thought it was awful then, and I've seen nothing to change my mind. But I keep forgetting that it's accepting Jesus as your savior that counts, not deeds.

Lars, I'm sure glad I didn't take religion and the actions of good churchgoes and the pastor who hugged all the girls too tight and too long, for my model of learning how to lead a moral life.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 17, 2000.


gilda,

Have you sinned yet?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), May 17, 2000.

Hawk, if I am brainwashed it's not by religion. Tell me this, if everyone is born pure as the driven snow, then when and how did the evil ones become evil? Maybe at potty training? Did their environment (parents, friends, society) make them evil? Well then, what made the environment evil? It all had to start somewhere, somehow.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 17, 2000.

Gilda -- Dittos to that! I think every individual has the right and responsibility to find their own truth. Some are comforted by their religious beliefs and affiliations, others are comforted by the other kinds of beliefs. I believe that you do what is right for you and that you will know its right, because you will feel that it is. Folks that do things that I find are bad, wrong or evil are really bad, wrong and evil things TO ME. I would bet that those same folk that do those things really feel fine, because they are comfortable with that. I don't like that, but as long as they stay away from me, that's fine.

What always gets me are those that make it their mission in life to convince others who do not think like them that it's wrong and that they are right. What's worse to me are those that say that believe in the teachings of the word that they read, yet they fail to practice it everyday. They become subjective when applying their rules to themselves and other people....

When I was in college, one day, I was minding my own business in the dorm, and these two young women came up to me. They started talking about God, and Jesus and the like. It was fine to me, because I was raised as a Southern Baptist -- in church and Sunday school every week, and I was very involved with my church. These women wanted me to attend a christian lecture, so I said okay, and I went.

What got me is that they wanted to 'stand' with the other 'new comers' and state that I had been 'born again'. In my mind, I was saying What for? I'm already a Christian and was baptized and the whole nine yards! I didn't need to be 'born again'! After that, they didn't have much to do with me. That was the beginning of the end of my religious experiences and affiliations. It wasn't good enough for me to just be a Christian already, I had to be born again to prove it!

The truth is what I decide the truth to be....and I stand by that.

-- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom.com), May 17, 2000.


Gilda, I know that song and I think it's got things backward. People don't have to be taught to hate so much as they have to be taught to love.

Likewise, churches are full of hypocrites but that doesn't make religious teachings wrong.

Yes, some pastors and priests play grabasski and worse. The flesh is weak. And many women hit on their pastors. It's an occupational hazard for male pastors.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 17, 2000.


J, Hell yes I've sinned--often and happily. But nothing worth burning in an ever lasting lake of hell fire. You know, just the old everyday sins, gluttony, swearing, lying about why I can't help with a worthy cause, etc., I haven't lost any sleep over my sins, nor seen myself on America's Most Wanted so I guess I'll not worry yet.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 17, 2000.

Mello 1--

Gee, I'm a minority of one tonight. Oh well, fools rush in.

You said: "every individual hes the right and responsibility to find their own truth". Do you really believe that? Situation ethics, yeah baby! Charles Manson was just doin' his thang. Who are we to impose our values on someone else?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 17, 2000.


This is getting into serious discussion.

Gilda: I noticed the same sortof thing in the youth group I mentioned a while back. The folks who claimed to be Christians would sit and criticize others because they didn't have a purse that matched their shoes. [No kidding!] My daughter's friend stopped attending the Mormon church when her pastor molested her. As Mello stated, check out the other fora sometime. I don't want to mention any names, but SOME Christians are bashing OTHER Christians as much as they're bashing non-Christians. It's a fight over whose faith is the RIGHT faith. It goes WAY beyond being Christian to being the RIGHT KIND of Christian.

Lars:

I brought three kids into this world, and I didn't see inherent evil. I saw curiosity and imagination that oftentimes resulted in lying. Sometimes the lying was DUE to imagination, as in "How'd ya get that hole in your pants?" "A baby elephant poked me in the knee." Sometimes the lying was due to CMA [fear of consequences]. It's not like we couldn't follow the candy-wrappers to my son's room where he sat with chocolate all over his mouth to discern that he was the one who ate his sister's halloween candy, right? Once confronted, he said, "I didn't take it." It's not like we couldn't tell the toddler was lying when we sent her out to pick raspberries for dinner and she returned with her mouth all red carrying an empty bowl just to say, "There weren't any." I think they recognize love when they see it, and I've never seen my kids do or say anything that indicated that they didn't start out innocent, have imaginations that we'd all envy, and learn quickly that consequences were something to avoid. [I DID talk to them about that lying thing, but not until a few years later.] Once you tell them that the consequences for lying are greater than admitting what they've done, they'll tell you FAR more than you ever wanted to know.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 17, 2000.


Lars -- Yeah, I really do. I hate what CM is and what he's done, but I believe that in his mind, he thinks that it was okay. I also believe in personal responsibility and accountability and I think that in a society that has rules and laws -- if you break them, you suffer the consequences -- in this earth plane, at the very least. Beyond that, he goes where he goes. For you, it would probably be hell to burn.

-- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom.com), May 17, 2000.

LOL Anita! Great story. You're absolutely right, it is the fear that we breed in our society which causes people to make bad choices (lying, stealing, etc.). We're ALL responsible for the type of consciousness which we allow to dominate our society, and this is what breeds criminals. By focusing on making choices which are based on love instead of fear, we each become an important part of the much bigger picture. Our consciousness of our spiritual relationship with God is contagious, when we do good things for ourselves, we do good things for everyone.

Mello1, good to see you back here again! Yes, ever since the Elain thing I haven't seen much of anything except hatred and negativity over on EZ, it's sad. I think you're right about people like Charles Manson and Hitler. They are not "evil" or being driven by "Satan", they think that what they are doing is the right thing. As I said above, all of us are also partly responsible for allowing this type of mindset to become dominant in our world, and do very little to prevent these things from happening.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 17, 2000.


It would not be prudent to respond to everyone post by post; Instead, I will bring this back around at this point to my challenge-my challenge was to find a passage in the bible which directly addresses those people who will never hear the gospel. So far, I am correct-no one has presented clear and convincing evidence that the bible accounts for all people of the earth-the closest was Frank, who gave reference to the catholic explanation in their canons; but again, this does not constitute a biblical quote or quotes that speak directly to the dilemma of reaching everyone.

What we have had instead is exactly what I said would happen; qoutes from which some INFER what the ible must have meant, qoutes which state that there is no excuse for not accepting Jesus, etc etc.

The point I have been trying to make is that NO spiritual book and ANY spiritual book can contain the truth. No one book can contain everything; people who wrote 2000 years ago could not account for the population explosion, hence there IS no passage in the bible that specifically deals with this issue. ANY book, because spiritual law is spiritual law-it does not change because you put a certain label on it-as with physical laws, metaphysical laws are constant-any action you take has a consequence, a result, in both the physical and metaphysical world.

I had a vietnamese friend who I used as a spiritual advisor some years ago-he was a taoist for the most part, and he said to me, after I told him how many great books I had read: "No. No, No, No. Only read one." And I asked him which one? and he said to me ANY one. I was flabbergasted, but told him I would ponder this. Years later it dawned on me that the truth is all that there is and can be found in any spiritual path-truth contains everything-Evil/Good/Fear/Love everything that is is the truth-even a lie, because it tells the truth about the person who is telling it; that he/she is a lier and that is the truth. Got it?

Anyway, I am rambling, but God bless us all that we have so many views and are passionate about them; And finally, Everything all of us have said is the truth.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 18, 2000.


FS,

Thanks for reading the post, I know it was long. Remember though that from a Catholic perspective the truth consists of both the Bible AND church traditions (based on the bible ((see earlier quotes)) and the authority to bind and loose).

So that for me, while the quote I presented was not from *the Bible*, it is *valid* as being an "official" statement.

Feel free to disagree, as I'm sure some of the Protestants will... :-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 18, 2000.


Hawk

How dare you! I believe in THE God,

I find it some what ironic for you to claim to have faith in the 'only God there is, the All, the Everything, the Is, the Now, and the Never Was but place limitations on Him. I mean if the god you believe in is all that you believe Him to be, as you stated above, why is he not capable of directing His people to write down His rules of how things need to be done and who He is in His own best selling book, in your mind?

Does your god have limitations and/or subject to ineptness on occassion? How can He be creator, while at the same time be incapable of getting His creation (us) to write down on paper some things he wants us to know about Him and pass along His expectations of us to us?

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 18, 2000.


Of course not! There are thousands of books where people have written TRUTHS about God, but the Bible is mostly propaganda. God is not the asshole that the Bible portrays him as, he does not have to use fear to show us the way to Heaven.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 18, 2000.

thousands of books where people have written TRUTHS

True enough, but I believe there is only one book where God has written all his truths and that book is the Bible.

-- I believe in Him (Jesus is King@Kingdom.come), May 18, 2000.


>Lars -- Yeah, I really do. I hate what CM is and what he's done, but >I believe that in his mind, he thinks that it was okay. I also >believe in personal responsibility and accountability and I think >that in a society that has rules and laws -- if you break them, you >suffer the consequences -- in this earth plane, at the very least. >Beyond that, he goes where he goes. For you, it would probably be >hell to burn.

> -- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom.com), May 17, 2000.

Mello 1---

You make my point, I think. You say that what Charley did was okay in his own mind. But we agree (don't we?) that it was NOT okay. Yet if everyone must decide for themselves what is okay, then who are we to tell Charley that what he did was not okay? It's just our value system vs his. We value a pregnant woman's right not to get stuck in the stomach with a carving knife but Charley thought it's groovy (a little 60s lingo there). In fact, he thought that Sharon Tate was a pig and deserved to die.

At some point we are obliged to invoke a higher standard than personal preference; an absolute standard. Just because we can't see Natural Law doesn't mean it's not there. We can't see gravity either. The trick of course is to identify what the higher, absolute standards are. Interesting that the world's major religions agree on essential values like "murder is a no-no".

Sorry to disillusion you but I don't have a visual picture of Hell, or Heaven for that matter. They may not even exist. However, I CHOOSE to believe that they do.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 18, 2000.


MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT GOD,KNOWS HIS OWN. AND TURNS THEM TO CHRIST.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 18, 2000.

Lars-- I agree that it was not okay what Manson has done and what he stands for based on my the rule of law that I accept. I suspect that you do not think it was right based on your own values, some of which maybe the same as mine.

What I meant was that what one may view as evil, or immoral, or ungodly -- another person may think that it is great. I think that it all depends on what one adopts as one's truth. That determines their values, their morals, and the limits (or lack thereof) they place on themselves.

-- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom .com), May 18, 2000.


F.S., I appreciate your reply. I'm not in total disagreement with the opinion "what matters is the words, not the writer" kind of philosophy, but I do think it never hurts to take a peek, lol. It sure helped me with knowing the background of some of those "voices" expressing doom about y2k.

But if you do take this approach, it sure must be some powerful writing if merely reading Walsch's book is convincing enough that he did indeed have a conversation with God. (Or perhaps you are just impressed with how he merged bunches of philosophies? Unified God Theory?;)

Bascially, I find these threads interesting, but can't add much since as I said I haven't read the book(s....did he get a return call?;). So have fun, I even get a little more insight into this writer.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 19, 2000.


Hi Mello, what you say makes perfect sense to me.

Concerning your "born again" people, don't you think that insisting that people go through these performances, does more to turn people away, than bring people into the fold. It's kind of like salesmen that turn you off so bad with their sales pitch that you wouldn't buy the product even if you liked it.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 19, 2000.


Gilda -- Yeah, it did turn me off. Far worse, my college roommate and other friends that I had joined the organization that tried to recruit me, and we soon were not as good friends as we once were before they joined. They were still nice to me and all, but, it was different. It was like they had their own club going and I wasn't in on the secret. I thought that rather strange, since I still considered myself a Christian at the time -- just not 'born again'. It was weird to me.

-- Mello1 (Mello1@ix.netcom.com), May 19, 2000.

Mello, that's the problem with most religious organizations... they discriminate. God does not.

-- Hawk (flyin@hi.again), May 19, 2000.

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