Janet Reno

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This came across my list and I just had to get everyone's take on it here. Hold on to your hat folks this one blew me out of the water. I know this is off topic, and I tried to add this to the elian gozales thread, but alas I couldn't find it. For Immediate Release April 7, 2000

April 6, 2000


SUBJECT: Designation of the Attorney General as the Lead Official for the Emergency Response Assistance Program Under Sections 1412 and 1415 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1997 (Public Law 104-201) (the "Act").

Under sections 1412(a) and 1415(a) of the Act, the Secretary of Defense is responsible for implementing the Emergency Response Assistance Program, commonly known as the "Domestic Preparedness Program," to provide civilian personnel of Federal, State, and local agencies with training and expert advice regarding emergency responses to a use or threatened use of a weapon of mass destruction or related materials, and for testing and improving the responses of such agencies to emergencies involving chemical or biological weapons and related materials.

Under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, including sections 1412(a)(2) and 1415(d)(1) of the Act, I designate the Attorney General to replace the Secretary of Defense as the lead Federal official with responsibility for carrying out these programs.

These designations are effective October 1, 2000, and constitute designations pursuant to sections 1412(a)(2) and 1415(d)(1) of the Act.

The Attorney General is authorized and directed to publish this memorandum in the Federal Register.


I am making no comments at this time I just wanted to hear everyone's opinion.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 16, 2000


Actually, it makes sense.

Look at the history of the Oklahoma City bombing and the attack on the World Trade Center in New York. Who responded immediately. The police and fire departments. Followed by state police, FBI, ATF etc.etc. No army tanks rolled into town or Marine assault battalions or Navy seals or Air Force fighters. They were domestic "incidents" responded to by domestic agencies. So, it only follows that the Federal domestic bureaucracy should oversee these activities and not the military.

Also, think about the number of hazardous chemical spills that occur regularly in your state. These aren't terrorist activities, but the results can be just as deadly. The local agencies have to be trained and equipped to respond immediately. The Secretary of Defense has absolutely nothing to do with it. And yet hundreds, if not thousands of lives could be affected by one tanker flipping on the interstate or one train derailing in the middle of town.

So fine. Make the change. An Army ranger armed with an M16 is totally worthless against a poly-chloride spill on a state highway. My money is on the local volunter fireman backed by state hazardous material teams, trained and equipped by domestic agencies.

Craig Miller

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 16, 2000.

I'm not quite following this. Unfortunately the world is changing and terrorism is changing with it-remember the Sarin gas release in the Japanese subway tunnel? The World Trade Center? Oklahoma City? Being in the US no longer protects us from terrorists from outside, and we're doing a good job raising up our own.

Hate to disappoint you, but this isn't about training and arming a secret army. It is about (and has already been going on for some years) training people to deal with what terrorists are doing. Just as people had to be trained to deal with meth labs. Living in the country doesn't protect any of us. You don't know what someone upwind or upstream is doing. And many of these bombs and biological weapons are created in secluded places-read out in the countryside. Then transported by some method to their target. Are you sure you'll never be involved in a car accident? Never be in a building that's a target (or next door to one)? Never recieve a letter that's been next to a disease contaminated package?

I wish the training wasn't needed. I wish I didn't have to know to look for funny propane tanks. I wish I didn't have to know how to wear an air pack and hazmat suit. I wish a lot of things. But I do have to know. It keeps me alive, and if I'm alive, I can help you. The more of us who stay alive, the more of us there are to help. The abortion clinic bombings are good examples. Even if you think the bombs are justified, they hurt and can kill innocent passersby. Worse, the people who set them want to kill everybody so they set secondary devices. Those devices are designed solely to maim and kill fire and rescue personnal. I need to know that, I need to know what to look for and how to deal with them. That's what the training is all about. No guns, no rocket launchers, just people trying to contain disaster for everyone's benefit. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 16, 2000.

Good Grief! Calm down Gerbil :)

I can sit on my front porch with a lemonade and survive. No abortion clinic bombing, but a neighbor grabbed the wrong can and doused his bar-b-que with gasoline instead of kerosene. The explosion was heard for miles. No seran gas attack, but a chemical tanker flipped on the highway downwind from us. Mandatory evacuation for many. No stealth bombers, but a nasty tree-top tornado that gave a buzz-cut to several homes in town.

The point is this. The only time the military was involved was when raw manpower was needed to help with evacuation and prevent looting. Otherwise, it was domestic agencies all the way. So, to me, the whole point of Janet Reno being made overseer for domestic disaster training and advise is common sense. The Secretary of Defence has no place in all this.

Are you worried about a terrorist attack? I'm worried about the yahoo in his pickup truck crossing the double yellow line to pass a car at 70 MPH on the blind crest of a hill. Are you worried about "funny looking tanks"? I'm worried about the dip-stick smoking his cigarette filling his junker-clunker at the self-serve gas station. Highway terrorists? You Bet! The a**-hole in his 18 wheeler whose been driving for 15 hours and is nodding off at the wheel.

You're afraid of TERRORISTS! I'm afraid of IDIOTS! And those are in the vast majority, I assure you. So pour yourself a lemonade, sit on the front porch, and watch the mayhem on your local highway. The terrorists don't stand a chance. They'll probably get killed by an SUV whose driver swore it wouldn't flip in a high-speed turn.


-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 16, 2000.

Craig, we answered at the same time originally, so my reply wasn't to you. I wish I could calm down. I can't. Sorry, here in the Heart of America we've got meth labs. I have to recognize funny looking propane tanks. It keeps me alive. Don't know how you think military is involved in any of this. It is just us barely protected, barely equipped, and barely trained emergency personal.

We've never had a train derail. I still know where the emergency cutoff switch is on a train engine. We've never had a propane tanker catch fire, but I spent hours last night at a class on dealing with compressed gas accidents. We've never had a house fire where victims were inside, a few weeks ago I spent a long night training in an empty house on locating and removing victims. More to your liking, I also spend a lot of time cutting into vehicles and practicing extricating victims. I recertify on cpr and de-fib every 3 months. I practice getting my SCBA on as quickly as possible. I usually re-certify hazmat every year. I spend a lot of time each year on training for my work, and on doing my work. I don't even get gas money.

Most of the problems I have to deal with are the result of idiots and natural causes, or some combination of the two. The drunks in the wee hours, the heart attacks, the idiot who didn't disconnect something and got sucked into a manure speader or grain auger. The unwatched baby who is choking on something. The moron who decided to burn on a windy day, got bored and left. But I can't forget that there are other things and other people out there, up to who knows what. That's what the memorandum deals with. I hope no one ever takes over the school, I hope no tornado hits the county park during camping season, I hope no one ever manages to get a pipe bomb connected to someone's car. I hope no train ever derails, whether by accident or design. I hope the grain elevators never explode. I hope I never have to evacuate people in a mile's radius because some sleep-free or hopped up tanker truck driver plowed into a school bus. But dealing with terrorism is a possibility, as are dealing with tornadoes, fires, car accidents and a lot of other things. Unfortunate, but reality.

Do I check under my bed at night for terrorists? Nope, nothing under there but dust elephants. Do I check my closet? Nope, nothing in there but clothes moths. Does my pager come with me when I step out to hang up the laundry? Yup. Do my pager and my scanner get turned up to full blast when I go to bed at night? Yup. Generally, nothing happens. But my pager stays with me, even when I'm sacked out on the porch with my lemonade. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 16, 2000.

This is just a thought and maybe a question, but it does say threatened use of weapons of mass destruction ? how broad is that term going to be used? An anhydres (sp) tank that farmers use to spred ammmonia nitrate on their fields coud be considered under this .Poisnes to the lungs and blinds the eyes. Will they use this law to clamp down on everything they think might be a threat. Just wondering?

-- becky (Joel681@webtv.net), May 16, 2000.

It is interesting everyone's different take on this EO. First of all I never said that I thought someone was training a secret army. I do think Clinton wants someone in this position he can control. The thing that gets me about this is that Janet Reno hasn't done that incredible of a job responding to domestic problems in the first place. In fact of the major ones most of them have been dismal failures. I also want someone in control of mass weapon preparation that is able to keep their head in an emergency. I can think of no better person qualified to do this that the Secratary of Defense. After all his whole purpose in being in office is the defense of the citizenry from people who would hurt them. A constitutional uae of government I might add. Think about it, if China decided to wage a nuclear war against us, something they've threatened more than once, Do you really want Janet Reno in charge of protecting you? I guess my question is what is the point? I don't understand what would promote such a change unless it is the fact that Janet Reno is notoriously in Clinton's corner on everything. I just think it is odd.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 16, 2000.

I'm just a "wanna be homesteader" and "lurker". But this memorandum did not show up in a search of the Federal Register. Did anyone else find it?

-- Allen (allen@sebroach.com), May 16, 2000.

Those of you with children reading cover their eyes and close their ears--get ready--here it comes ! The only terrorist that is named here is Janet Reno ! She is an ungodly,lying, murdering,worthless waste of air and apmostphere. She should have been hung on the white house lawn with her combined family as a lesson to all that we will not tolerate murder and lies in our government. I guess you would have to meet her and look in her eyes to understand that she is just plain mean,nasty and has no human characteristics. Inside her heart, she is dead--a robot of the machine. I personally think that Oklahoma City was a farce. The government used their best soldier to bomb a building that was already slated for teardown to get their "terrorist bill" passed congress. In 8 years they will bury a box and tell you that Timothy was in it, but it will be empty. The bombings of the embassys in africa had all of the trademarks of Timothy's work and he probably did those also. Timothy is the best soldier we know---he Follows Orders to the Letter ! I have told you many times "We are so close to civil war that it would make your head swim" War is close and Inevitable ! You can bury your heads or heed the warning and prepare. Everyday the news brings us hours closer. Are you ready yet ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.et), May 16, 2000.

Hey Joel! I'm usually just a lurker. I have followed quite a few of your responses in other posts, so I sort of have an idea where you stand on some things. You definitely liven things up! I am just wondering with due respect what the basis is for your theories about war at hand and Timothy being in cahoots with the government. Some might regard this viewpoint as radical but if there is a possibility of this having some truth I'd sure like to know. I really feel our government is very dishonest to say the least, but so vial and ruthless as to kill all those people to pass a bill? I guess anything is possible, but I still want to believe that people in general still have a conscience, even the ones in government. I guess I just don't want to believe it. But educate me and others about how you have come to these conclusions. Thanks, Denise.

-- Denise H. (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 16, 2000.

Joel, I agree with some of what you have said.Some of it, i owuld have to see more info first. I think we have far more to be concerned about in the menace that Janet Reno presents than any terrorist attacks! Domestic problems that she handled badly? What problems? Like Waco? Those people were killed ruthlessly, and as far as I can tell, the only reason was to put the fear of big brother into the rest of us.It's a known fact that David Koresh could have been arrested many,many times when he was away from the "compound". They were a cult? So what if they were? Don't we have freedom of religion here? That was just a move to get everybody to condone the deaths of those people.Somehow, most of the people seem to have bought it.Oh, they were a cult-they deserved it! I don't know what is behind putting Janet in charge of disasters, but I have a feeling we are in for some more nastiness-time will tell.

-- Rebekah (danger@USA.com), May 16, 2000.

I am searching, for the references to this memorandum. Please be patient as I get the info on that. I am waiting to hear from the original person who posted this to my list. It is possible that it hasn't been posted to the national register yet.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 16, 2000.

First of all, the lack of anyone questioning a "King's Edict" in the form of an executive order is very worrisome to me. To find the executive orders that King Bill has made go to whitehouse.gov and link to the proper hook....it's on the lower left hand side of the front page.

Craig, you will not find executive orders in a Fed law search because they are not laws by definition, as they are not constituionally allowable. When they began to be used it was purely for Whitehouse functions...a man's home is his castle...fine. But WE the people own it.

A good site to go to and find much information on the things that Joel speaks about is infowars.com; the archive section is a plethora of information. The man that runs the site is somewhat abrasive, but he is passionate about the loss of this country to a totalitarian/socialist agenda, and it is an agenda. DIG and you will be amazed.

Digest this fact...80% of the media in this country is owned by 8 corporations. This includes all of the super small town papers, and radio stations. Do you think that Sam Donaldson is giving you the news, free and uncontrolled? For several million$$$$ per year, he doesn't care what is true. Ever see a blurb about something that is coming up on the news and then it never arises? I have many times. Ever been at an event or occurence and then see it on the news? It bears no resemblance to the reality of the situation. TV is called programming for a reason and that is where the vast majority of people in this country get their "truth". The UN and The US Fed government both are vying for control of the internet, because they want to control all of the info. This and the seriously ill Second Ammendment are the only things (other than God) keeping us out of a complete slave state.

Did you know that executive orders cannot be challenged by Congress for 6 months? Do you recall what it was that the Revolutionary War was fought over? Also of import, only 3% of the total population fought in the Revolutionary War......I would rather that these things weren't the truth, but they are. I would rather have hard painful truth than soft fuzzy lies. How about you?

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 16, 2000.

There's a reference on TB2000 non censored forum maybe about 3 weeks ago, if you want a link and more commentary about this. Folks got pretty revved up.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 16, 2000.

Initially I was going to stay out of this one but what the hell, here's my 2 cents. If it is true and we don't like it what can we do about it? Nothing is my guess.

Doreen: I agree! Tell me the truth, unvarnished, unspun, and not sugar coated.

Implicit in the concept of self determination, freedom of the press, and a democratic republic is the idea that adults of voting age have enuf intelligence to make decisions crucial to their lives, given the opportunity and accurate information---and guess what folks---the politicians don't give us credit for having the brains even of a box of rocks. We're spoon fed pablum from the press and media, having only the sketchiest information to go on unless we want to make it our lifes work to determine what the truth is in any issue. And if we do that, who gonna feed the goats? Don't we have a right to be told the truth at least?

And don't kid yourself. The problem is not the republicans and its not the democrats. Its big money---nothing more or less---that has corrupted the system. In a government by the people and for the people how is it that a corporation is considered a person, regarding their "right" to contribute to campaigns. I know a person when I see one and GM, Amway, and ADM does not qualify. But the supreme court apparently doesn't know the difference.

Its really kinda pathetic when you think about it. The political system has taken over our brains to such an extent that we seem to have abdicated our right (duty) to think for ourselves, to the point to where we really have become a nation divided.

Ronald Reagan is propped up as this conservative ideal, the father of the Reagan revolution. He comes into office decrying big government, deficit spending and welfare. He leaves office 8 yrs later, quadrupling the national debt. And speaking of lies and hypocrisy. At the Iran-Contra hearings Prince George(VP) was "out of the loop" and Ronny "just doesn't recall". Maybe it was early onset of alzheimers or incompetance or just plain old deception. In any case, at least in my eyes, it was a far greater cause for impeachment proceedings and violation of public trust than Clintons indiscretions and stupidity.

His protege, now King George, stays on the same path, putting us even further in debt, while saying he believes in smaller government. Trust me folks when I tell ya if you loan me 4 trillion $$$$ I'll create the illusion of prosperity too. Whew! That felt good!

And don't get me wrong. The democrats are no better. The system is rotten at the core and its all about money. We the people have to figure out a way to disempower money in the system or we can all line up for our ration of soma and let the slimeballs take over.

Read 1984 by George Orwell and Brave New World by Aldous Huxley and when you're done with them read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and you'll have a pretty good description of where we're headed.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 17, 2000.

Having met high school friends of the Clinton's. I can truly say that I can't trust the President nor his Wife,(that's if you can call her that). They are looking out for themselves not the people of America. The gun grabbing, lying, cheating, deaths that can be attributed directly to them, make me beleive that once people see what is going on civil war will break out. Many people that I know are stock piling supplies for such a time. Owning a 50Cal. BMG rifle may be the best investment for a family to make.

I have heard that Janet Reno has been arrested several times for drunk driving in Miami and FL. I truly don't want a drunk in charge during times of emergencies.

Terrorist act, happen all the time around the world. However,very rarely against the USA. But this is changing, under Clinton the military has gottrn so weak that the international terrorist are testing our military force. I beleive that some of the terrprism is being sponsored by China. You know that country that has threated to nuke us half a dozen times in the last 6 months.

Terrorism is cheap, the war of the future. Jack nails ( 1 pound of 6D's bent and welded together) spread out on an intersate highway, like the beltway around DC at rush hour, would cause major problems. A phone call to an airport threating them. An antipersonnel land mine made for 22 cal. round. Fluhing a dried sponge down the toilet in the city, that expands and causes the lines to clog. Putting a coin into and electical device that when it is turned on causes it to short out. Jamming radio signals with a sparkplug. Binary chemical weapons, two common chemicals tht can be purchased at any hardware store that when they are mixed the generate a nerve gas. Dumping an insecticide into a water supply to cause a fishkill, hence polluting the system. A Forest fire along a highway, remember I-95 was shut down last year. No traffic, no business, no money, no... Shootinga transformer with a 22, cause the case to crack slowly leaking coolant, then bursting into flames. Cypercrime, computer viruses, our goverment and several foreign goverments are developing such weapons. The first shot fired during dessert storm was a computer virus that was built into a chip, many years earlier, on one of Iraq's command and control computers, that was actived by the military. Look how well our bombers did that first night, Iraq had not communication system to speak of because of the virus. A shovel cutting across a fiberoptic phone line, they are all marked. Spamming or an emial bomb, easy! Notice that I didn't mention on time that most of you could be if you had a little training. Computer viruses are generally very easy to make. Does this make us all potential terrorist, for Reno to watch?

Well enough about this for now, I gotta take my high blood-pressure medicine.

-- We the People... (!!!!@!!!!.!!!), May 17, 2000.

Terrifying to say the least. Another unconstitutional federal overreach by the First Felon and the Mena Mafia. More disturbing is that this is not the worst or most dangerous of this clowns E/O's. The most disturbing is that people support this nonsense based on the government propaganda they were fed by the media about the Oklahoma City bombing hoax and the World Trade Center bombing pulled off by the FBI. Its all out there folks. The FBI had to admit their part in the WTC in court. The facts dont support OKC, it was a reichstag fire to get Clintons last "antiterrorism" bill pushed through. The only real terrorists likely to show up at your door or commit an act of mass destruction are the federal alphabet soup agencies.

-- William in WI (thetoebes@webtv.net), May 17, 2000.

Where did it all start to go wrong ? Do you own a bolt action rifle with a 3 shot clip ? I dare you to pull off a Kennedy reanactment in less than 20 seconds. I shoot expert marksman and that is my best time to hit all targets. With a semi-automatic, my best time is 11 seconds. No, Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone. My theory ---he didn't act period, but he was set up to look good for it. Now, if you created the OKC bomb--would you use a stolen "getaway" vehicle with no licence plates ? Would you pull over for the Police with a 9mm pistol laying on the front seat in plain view and never attempt to use it. Would you be so badly prepared that you had no one to bond you out of jail on a 5000 dollar bond for just minor offenses while the FBI compiled a case against you overnight ? What di Timothy McVie accomplish ? He single handedly got a terrorist bill passed with amazing quickness, He took out one of the biggest milita members in the country by the name of Nichols( Michigan Militia). He removed a federal building for free that was slated for demolision. Could that bomb (as described) have inflicted that kind of damage ? No That was the firestarter for the real damage bombs already set inside to fuel the ATF's arsonnal in the basement. Would my country kill innocent woman and children and their own employees ? Woman and children and cops inspire the best reaction in the media--it doesn't take a military genius to realize that this would bring about the best press in years. My government is in the murder and lies business with over 200 years experience. And they are the best terrorists in the world ! Now, on to civil war----Montana will secede--IMHO, by the fall of 2000 Montana will secede from the union. Idaho will probably join them. It is my hope that every freedom living family will come to their aid with all dispatch ! If we want the America we grew up in than we are gong to have to take it by force. I support Montana--I support Montana as a free republic--I support Montana as an independant country. When will we be stronger for a true run at this regime ? Will it be after the government uses a "million misguided moms" to further their tyranny and take our guns ? In the blazing words of a true patriot, Patrick Henry " The war is inevitable--AND LET IT COME---Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery ? FORBID IT, ALMIGHTY GOD ! I know not what coarse others will take, but as for me, GIVE ME LIBERTY,OR GIVE ME DEATH "! Your brothers already on the field of battle in Montana await your reply. Will freedom loving people allow them to be cannon fodder or will you stand, like the honerable fathers that bore you and give back to the land your fathers died for ? I choose freedom for Montana and anyone willing to join her, so help me , God.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

It's pretty obvious to me from reading the previous posts that the greatest danger to America is other Americans. No other country can ever hope to compete against us in stupidity and paranoia. No other country is so heavily armed by its own citizenry to protect itself from itself. We have fools in federal government because smart people stay the heck away.

The original post concerned the transfer of certain functions from the Secretary of Defence to the Attorney General. So who do you want? Tweedle-Dee or Tweedle-Dum? I mean, really folks! So what?

Oh, and a P.S. to Joel. Hope you're ready for a l-o-o-o-o-ng wait in Montana for the coming civil war in the Fall. I'd love to join you, but I have tickets to the Ohio State - Michigan game. Sorry. Football first. Then war. Can I bring my seat cushion? I hate to be uncomfortable when I'm fighting the enemies of Liberty.


-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 19, 2000.

Arms and paranoia are why we are still free. Why is it some people can not voice there opinion without insulting others?

-- Allen (allen@sebroach.com), May 19, 2000.

It is ok. Thanks for the insult, Craig. Yes, by all means, bring your cushion to rest the part you sit and think on !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

Joel,I live in Idaho,not far from Ruby Ridge,in fact.There has been talk about Idaho, Oregon,Washington, and Montana all seceding from the union together.My opinion on it? In all honesty,people up here are so upset and paranoid after seeing what happened to the Weavers, that there is no unity among them.There is the Aryan Nations, a much overstated minority for which we are all sterotyped as nuts because there are a few here.In reality,there are many more hippie types that preach love and peace,than racist types.Anyway, the types that would want to secede,tend to be divided in philosophy, and suspicious of one another.Maybe,they could all learn to get along long enough to secede and decide what kind of government to have after seceding.But the other side of it is, that our area is renowned for this kind of stuff,overstated or not,and the government is all too ready to wipe us all out if necessary.Even on a local level, if you have a reputation for being "anti-goverment"(most are not, they just want a decent,fair,constitutional one)things can go VERY badly for you in jail,you can get arrested and thrown into jail and denied a trial for nothing at all. That is right,you don't have to be belligerent or doing anything wrong,you just have to look rebellious(example-hippies with beards and long hair)or to be aquainted with folks who have resisted the present system, or to ask what their probable cause is for stopping you, and they throw you into jail, take all your belongings, and make life hell for you until and unless you find a way to return the favor!The newspapers here(and likely everywhere) will cover the story, and it will be a pack of lies,and all the sheeple just swallow it whole and believe it, and condone whatever mistreatment you may have recieved,because after all, you were asking for it! I have NO doubt, that the gov't would be all to happy to come in, round up all independent,thinking people, and either dispose of them or put them in concentration camps. For those of you who think I've lost my mind,I would have agreed with you-before I saw our childhood friend's mother shot in the head as she held her baby,before a fine young boy was shot in the back, before I read all the lies about people who I knew weren't hateful and evil-they were homesteaders just like you and I.If it happened to them,it can happen to you-believe it.

-- Rebekah (*****@**.com), May 19, 2000.

I know what you mean ! I have no ties with nazis or the Ayrian Nation. I don't like their politics. You have the votes, just like Montana's legislature does, to secede at any moment. Oregon and Washington although once commited to secesson are doing the "wait and see". At any rate --minute by minute the line is being drawn in the sand and differences are being set aside for the sake of Liberty. It can happen to me ? I went to jail there for 3 days --charges dropped. I was treated like a king in Moscow, Idaho. I can never go far without an escort of Black SUV's and my phone tap warning light stays lit 24-7. The only man I totally trust is in the mirror. That doesn't stop me from speaking the truth and it shouldn't stop anyone else. What did Gerry Spence say " I'm glad there are people like Vicki Weaver, who aren't scared of their government" I choose to continue her legacy--Identify the scum who have perverted the system and speak against them day and night !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

I didn't know there were so many people that felt this way. Of course i've heard people complain about the government before but all this shooting and seceding talk is all new to me. Yes, I want the truth, but how do you know what you read at infowar. com and other such sites is the truth either. I suspect that each side probably has its own agenda. I'm not saying I know what the truth is, but how could anyone unless they made it their full time job to constantly investigate. What is truth anyway? I think its very subjective according to ones own experience. I would like to hear some constructive ideas for change. shootin will only get you killed and then what good are you to anyone? Secession wont work either because you will be surrounded and cut off just like the south was in history. I dont like the way things are in government any more than you do. I'd suggest moving to Ohio. The climate seems more peaceful here:)! Denise.

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 19, 2000.

The Truth is---we bought our freedom with guns--we maintained it with guns--we will retrieve it from those who stole it with guns by using ? That's Right--the answer is guns ! If you can sit in the middle of a war and be unaffected by it than I envy you ! Truth is--you must pick a side.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

OK, let's say the answer is guns. I have no objection to guns for a family's protection against crime. But what you are proposing sounds like suicide. How would it succeed? If the states you named seceded, I think you would be out-gunned fairly soon, especially if all the groups involved aren't united in their goal or leadership. Dont get me wrong, I'm often for the underdog. This just doesn't sound like there would be much chance for success. As far as sitting in the middle of a war, I've never perceived such a thing before to be alarmed about untill I started reading this forum. So please forgive me if I'm skeptical. I'm probably like the majotity of people out here except I am willing to consider the possibility of what you are saying and ponder. But back to the war: how would it succeed? If it were to be put down quickly, then this would just be portrayed as just a bunch of wackos like Waco. Your message would not make it to the mainstream. I think there would have to be some other element to this than guns to win. Coming out , guns blazing, wont win the support you would need to keep things going. I just want to know more. Can you blame me? Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 20, 2000.

Your correct, Denise. Guns alone would be suicide and you must work the problem from different angles. The legislatures of The Block 4 at one time had the votes and ask to become a independent republic(like Puerto Rico). Now only Montana and Idaho hold that luxury. They need Washington's and Oregon's seaports to become truly independent. The problem is--the state that voted itself into the United States somehow cannot vote itself out of the tyranny. Than there would be those who would not want to leave their property to go back to the United States proper. Now, we have to get into "the needs of a few out wieghing the needs of the many" delimna. Washington and Oregon would come on board quickly if Montana would show any signs of a successfull seperation. Also, much of the land is owned by Native Americans who just happen to want to leave the United States also(imagine that). Since the United States has answered their request for seperation with threats of war, than what is the alternative ? War would bring out public opinion on human rights and The Constitution ! Which reads--That it is our duty to seperate ourselves from tyrannical governments(by force if necessary). The government would lose this case in their own courts as the evidence is so overwhelmingly stacked against them. If a State. and I mean any State. feels compelled to seperate themselves from the present country by vote, than our form of government not only should allow it, they are obligated by the constitution to support it. That is the theory the Forefathers invisioned. Reality is. the greedy $%#&* have no intention of honoring their own laws. War must come to protect our rights to The Constitution. There is no longer any need for rhetoric--the choice is a simple one--release us, or kill us. I also have worked out some of the land problems. Many Native Americans are willing to trade thier reservation land in other states, for land in the block 4. that is presently owned by persons that still believe in the United States and wish to return there. I read your post on moving to Ohio and I was amused--Cleveland, murder capital of america 1998--Ohio, highest sales tax in america--worst road conditions due to dilapitated highways and Lake Erie--america's septic tank. I think I'll give you a weekend to clean that mess up before I visit again. That is no reflection on you personally--it is the news and opinion from my relatives that live near Cleveland. IMHO, if a state wishes to leave the United States than the response should be---Go, Go with our blessing and Good Luck--and the smart americans would be working out trade deals !!!

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 20, 2000.

Now this makes more sense to me. It seems more logical than before. As far as Ohio is concerned, I agree that Cleveland is dirty. I'm located at the opposite end of the state around good old conservative Cincinnati. Cinti. is pretty clean as far as cities go. I rarely go into the city though. I'm northeast out in the countryside. I'm only about 30-40 mins. from Ky. It's rolling and pretty where I am, but it is building up fast. We are planning to move farther to the east in a county knownfor a little Amish community located there. The land is less expensive and taxes are low. We have run out of space where we live now anyway. I would love to see a free America where we could get back to the basics, barter for what we cant produce on our own, etc. If thats going to happen I understand there would have to be a revolution of sorts. That's the scary part. What about the disunity among the groups that want to secede? There would have to be a united front to make this work. How would people involved avoid being arrested and taken away in the planning phases. I'm sure big brother would know something is going on. What about families if something like this would happen? I know I could shoot to kill to protect the ones I love, but what about the children if fighting would start? How do you protect them? Feed them? You probably wouldn't get to stay on your homestead.Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 20, 2000.

Those are all good questions and I can't answer them all. There are more ways to fight than with guns. There are many ways to feed your family. War is Hell and sacrifices must be made. Yes, my present farm in Virginia would be confiscated by the Federal Government. I would be proud to have that happen--I would join an elite group of Virginians that it happened to also. Generals Lee and Jackson just to name two. I guess we would have both Arlington and Rosen Cemetaries to bury brave men in. The "planning stages" for revolution were done in the 1700's by Madison and Jefferson, they saw this coming 225 years in advance and wrote the prescription for the cure in the original document. Will Men and women be killed ? OMG,Yes My estimates run up to 500,000 or more. The tyrant won't give up easily. There is always disagreement in principle --I don't care how you do the job as long as the work is done and done well. Every journey begins with a step. The first step here is seperation from tyrants. For me that equals war and secession. After that, 25 years of petty bickering to insure we don't repeat the same mistakes as in our forefathers did in their "experiment in government" Maybe the United States was the best country on the planet but we are not even close to a democracy or republic anymore. I call this system a Moneyarchy.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 20, 2000.

I wanted to clarify, that I don't think guns in and of themselves are going to be much good in defending ourselves against our own government.Theoretically, we should be able to vote in government officials that will truly represent us and our interests,but it has become clear to me that they already have the winners picked out,look,for example,at Alan Keyes, who has been completetly ignored.He is actually quite popular among most of the thinking and or christian peple I have met,but the media acts like he doesn't exist.Also, by the time we vote here,it is already determined who will be the president,which makes it very discouraging to even bother to go out and vote. Anyway,I've digressed a little. I don't think we're going to see any productive change until the thinking of the people can be changed.Most of them just swallow whatever uncle Sam and the media feed them via the TV. I don't think they even realize that the TV is an effective tool in reforming their opinions on all kinds of things and getting them to go along with all the other sheeple. Then there is Gandhi, who effected a revolution from the tyrrany of the British givernment without resorting to violence and guns.I tend to think that this is what we would need to do, because the minute guns are brought out,there would be an excuse to bomb us,annhilate any thinking person, or maybe utilize biological warfare,aginst which guns are absolutely worthless. The thing is, that most people don't want any real change.They want security, and at any cost,it seems.They want their social security,welfare checks,and other government goodies,and probably wouldn't accept the change even if it was handed to them free of charge or blood, on a silver platter.What has to change first is their thinking, and that is not going to happen as long as we can be sucessfully portrayed as a bunch of gun crazy lunatics.My personal opinion is that the Weavers and Davidians would have been a lot harder to villianize and get away with therefore killing,if they had not attempted to defend themselves,but had adopted some form of peacable resistance and protest.

-- Rebekah (*****@***.com), May 20, 2000.

Joel I think the question of states being able to vote themselves out of the United States (formerly These United States ) was setteled back around 1860 or so and the people lost............JAY

-- Jay(MO) (jay@townsqr.com), May 20, 2000.

I agree Jay they defeated right once but that is no reason to quit. Let's run it at them again. Especially right now ! The Armed Forces are the weakest they have been since World War II. Most of the planes are old and breakdown daily. The infantry units are a laughing stock with earrings, pierced noses and purple hair.The only "real soldiers" left have been in for 18 years, gained 80 pounds and can't even run to their cars much less to a battlefield. Sure they have a small number of SEAL Teams, HRT's and Special Forces that are deadly but inaffective once found and isolated. IMHO, they can't bomb the mountains of Montana because that is the location of the intercontinental nucluer warhead missles, which also make pretty good barter in a deal. Now Rebeckah, How many Ghandi's have you met lately. It is a beautiful thought and I wish it was a real possibility. I even pray daily for a "deliverer". The closest I have seen is Colin Powell and he is too smart to even bother with "Big Brother". He got out while the getting was good as did most decent human beings in the 1990's. All that is left in government are the criminals. You find me this "Ghandi" and I'll listen. attentively !!

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 20, 2000.

Wow. I was only off for a tic over a day! Denise, it is really difficult to find the "truth" of the matter, but my way is to research from three seperate sources and use as much common sense as possible. I have been wrong about things, Y2K being one of them. But thankfully!

The really disturbing thing to me is that we are always coming up to war. I don't think a traditionally organized war would stand a chance. There is too much surveillance and too large of a populace now. If the Fed Gov goes for the arms of this country any more thaan they already are I do think there will be a war, but it will be more of a guerilla type of altercation than an us against them traditional war. As i said in an earlier post, only 3% of the population fought in the Revolutionary War.

The question is about critical mass and mass hypnosis. Do we really think that when Dachau was abutted to a farm those people didn't know what was happening, or were they like Craig and so unwilling to see the truth that they couldn't even smell it?

The pendulum is moving, and it is picking up speed. Yesterday, my favorite Senator (gag) Dianne Feinstein proposed that all gun owners must be fingerprinted, photographed and register their arms with the Federal goverment and be licensed by them to keep their God given rights....How crazy is this? If we fail to learn from history, we are going to repeat it! Look at what the Nazi Party did in Germany. First, they took the guns, ban then burn books, get people used to giving up their rights (May I have a look in your car, please?) and it is SOOO easy.

I was stopped by a State Trooper yesterday for not wearing my seatbelt and he asked for my SS# and I told him that I didn't give that out.He seemed like he hadnever of heard of such a thing. The BIG deal is that I lost my goofy picture Drivers License and won't go and give the State of Texas my digital fingerprint so I don't have the exact form of id they want to see. The thing is that via another Executive order of Emperor Bill this State has decided to treat it's citizenry like criminals and print them so they can get people used to giving away their rights even more. Because I didn't have my "natinal id card" I have to go to court and ask the judge if it is a Costitutional court or a military court, and boy am I looking forward to it!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 20, 2000.

YIKES! I must admit I have only scanned most of the answers (after all, I only had an hour or so!). Most of what has been said reinforces my decision to be a Libertarian. Joel, I agree with you on some things. This administration scares the hell out of me! To be polite, (and somewhat archaic) they are rascals and scoundrels! I truly hope we can shed the extension of this administration by defeating the Socialist-in-training, and the lying den of Marxists he would bring with him. Bush is not my hero. But I feel I will fear my government much less under his leadership than under Algore!

Anyone need help in joining the NRA? I am not really a radical (well maybe as defined by the Hollywood elite left). I am a Constitutionalist and a Libertarian. The NRA, of which I am indeed a member, is one of the very few organizations that believes in God and the Constitution. I am proud to align myself likewise. GL to all!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), May 20, 2000.

Doreen is right--It will be a guerilla war, a mountain war somewhat like Viet Nam. Hit and run, run and shoot. Their air power reduced to choppers that have critical problems in sub zero weather and we all know how warm it is in Montana. 3% of of 255 million gives us what--765,000 I think the assembled militias would total 30 million. Count only on half of them and you have a 15 million man army. All infantry--tanks and apv's useless. A real war, a foot soldiers war. Thank God for the Ak-47--we can shoot their ammo and they can't shoot ours. It would be so much easier to release Montana !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 20, 2000.

This thread has been very enlightening. All the people I know would be very surprised to hearthis type of info. I gave up on TV a long time ago except for the weather and such. My suspicion about "them" has been confirmed. I still have alot to learn. Therefore I am going to join the NRA, learn more about the Libertarians, Talk to my friends and expose them to this line of thinking( they'll think I'm crazy), and practice my shootin'. My husband will love joining the NRA as he holds Charleton Heston in high regard(he fondly calls him Chuck). You guys are great! I have benefitted from my participation in this thread. Now I'll just keep watching thia forum and see what else I can learn. To the lady who is going to court, please make a post and let us know how that goes. I wonder if the judge gets many people that try to defend their rights rather than just play the game. We dont give fingerprints for driver's license here. I'm finding I'm a bit naive when it comes to whats going on in the world. Thanks. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 21, 2000.

Even Countrysiders who are the MOST Self-sufficient still need truckers, Craig. You would not be able to own,rent, barter, purchase ANYTHING!!! At some time, its been brought to you on a truck. Statiscally, truckers are involved in less accidents. If you can't say something nice, don't say nuttin' at all!

-- Margaret (gjensenii@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

My Goodness!

I never realized how deep the anti-government sentiment ran. My apologies for my inconsiderate responses. This thread has certainly been an education for me, also.

P.S. to Margaret - I'm not talking about the 99.9% of the courteous, respectful truckers. I'm talking about the 0.1% idiot that ran my family off the road because he was so tanked with barbituates he made your local drug store look like a Dairy Queen.

P.S. to Joel - A sense of humor. I like that. If I couldn't take it, I wouldn't sling it. Your posts do show some careful, considerate thinking. Even though I still think you have an elevated level of paranoia, IMHO, you're not nuts. Crazy like a fox, perhaps.

So Joel, you've got some serious logistical and legal problems. If the government has learned anything from the Waco and Ruby Ridge fiascos, it's DON'T FIRE FIRST. That will give them the legal and moral(?) authority to throw the book at you. If you open fire first, YOU'VE LOST! You need an excuse to kill, and the government won't give it to you. If you do kill without provocation, you'll be hunted down like dogs. Without independant recognition, you'll simply be a criminal.

You think the government is going to send in the military. They won't. They'll send in Federal marshalls, FBI and ATF. They'll treat you like punks, not soldiers. To do so means that they would have to give you military and political recognition. Ain't gonna happen. Kill ONE state trooper who's also a family man and watch how quickly your emotional support base disappears. The media will see to that. You don't control the media. THEY do.

Most people in the Block 4 will look for some sort of compromise working WITHIN the system, regardless of how flawed it is. The ballot box is still a very powerfull alternative to the ammo box. And most people will opt for the former, not the latter.

Good luck, Joel. Your posts have been very informative. But I really need to get on with things. My daughter's high school graduation is priority #1. I, too, have an agenda. It just doesn't mesh with yours. I'm going to stick to my ballot box methods. It's painfully slow and doesn't always produce the desired results. But for 200+ years, its been the model for the rest of the world. And to risk it all because responsible adults can't hammer out their differences through thoughtful dialog and negotiations? Doesn't send a very good message.

Respectfully Submitted,

Craig Miller

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 22, 2000.

As tempting as it may be to have a war over seccesion, even a guerilla war, think for a minute about what has happened to other countries that have a war going on. How long do you think the UN would stay out of it? Then we'd have not only our own Army to fight, but also armies from other counties, and some of those other countries would just love an excuse to lob a few bombs our way (or chemical warfare, or biological agents). If only four states were involved, how long do you think it would be before they resembled Afghanistan? Only probably minus most of their original populations. The current government (and most recent past ones) is awful, and definitely does not have the best interests of the United States of America at heart, but I don't know if a shooting war could be won. Well, to be honest, I really don't think it could be won. I don't care more about my comfort than my country, but I hate to see people putting their lives on the line in vain. So what is really going to work to get things back the way they should be? Most of the people in this country haven't got a clue about how things should be, and there aren't anymore new continents where we could build a new country and do it right.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 22, 2000.

OK, first let me say that my computer has been down and I have just now gotten it back up and on line. Infowars.com has information that is linked from other sources, most of which are national or international news sources. Yes, a war will last a very, very long time. So did the original revolutionary war. We already have many foreign troops inside our country. They are supposed to be here on "training" missions. We have Germans in Wichita Falls, TX, and in New Mexico. We have Chinese in Lousiana at Ft. Polk. We have foreign troops scattered all over the place. Some of us are extremely paranoid, but to me, these folks are really suspect, and I suspect they may not be here just to "train". Anyway, if you really want to get a better feel for just how close this whole situation is to popping, try to log on to www.pbn.4mg.com. They have audio available for a variety of shows. Even if you don't like the host of the show, you might try listening anyway. It is the people who call in that really make you think about what in the devil is going on in this country. And remember, like someone said earlier, it is guns and paranoia that has kept us as free as we have been, for as long as we have been free. If, or when, it comes down to it, you will have to decide which side of the fence you want to stand on. No one will be immune, and no one will have the perfect little hiding place. That is why someone once said "War is hell".

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

Kathleen, you said it right when you said "Most people in this country don't have a clue about how things should be,"

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

I thought everyone here would like to know that there are two bills in congress to limit the presidents power to make law by Executive order. To learn more you can got to: http://www.executiveorders.org They give you the ability to e-mail your representative right from the site.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 23, 2000.

Craig, you can come over and watch Joel and his little war on the tube with me. Exactly where Joel was during Ruby Ridge, Waco, and the Montana Freeman incident. There is no large group of folks doing anything, a small group here and there with no basis to mount anything as dramatic as a succession. Marksman? I can hit a running dog in the head from my back porch out to the workshop with my 22 rifle! But take on an army? Na! Seen Janet Reno? Old and frail with parkinsens or something, drunk driving? Can't believe she could drive with her health, and how could she have time to visit Florida with her plotting to destroy everyones liberty? :) Now back to the important things that I can control, making jam today, got a new electic ice cream maker to try a goat milk recipe on another thread, and the doelings need their feet trimmed today! Vicki, in Texas, the only state in the union that has the power to fly its state flag, even with the U.S flag and who is truly a Republic! Vote!

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 23, 2000.

Now we're getting somewhere Vicki!

I'll bring the popcorn to go with the war on the tube. Goat milk ice-cream? Can't wait! So. What can I bring from northeastern Ohio? An Amish quilt perhaps? My next door neighbor is Old Order Amish who does quilting to order. There is one particular quilting pattern called the "Texas Lone Star" that is absolutely stunning.

And you're right, Vicki. Goats and jams and ice cream and lemonade on the front porch on a lazy summer evening is what it's all about. I came to the Countryside web site looking for help with my well pump problems. And I got answers in spades! Nice little community here.

But the gist of this thread is war and the mean old gummint so let us "forage" on. (An army travels on its stomach, don't 'cha know) Most everything has been covered, so for just a little follow up.

Kathleen - The UN sending in troops? Are you kidding? Haven't you been following the developments in Africa? The UN can't even defend itself, let alone anyone else! The British army has to bail them out. And you're worried about them coming here? Many of the UN "regulars" are troops from the poorest nations. They enlist to get food, not to fight. Heck. I know street gangs in Cleveland that can beat them with broken beer bottles.

Green - Yes, you're right about Germans in Texas. You might want to check in with the Bundeswehr web site in Germany to find out what they're up to. Every unit has an information officer or information service. Very friendly. Up-to-date web sites. Email addresses. Their English is excellent. The fraulein was very helpful. She even knew the Hofbrau Haus in Munich where I used to hang out.

Little Bit Farm - I'm with you. I'm really getting annoyed with government by decree. That's best left to banana republic bozos. But that means working WITHIN the system to change the system. Radical idea.

Joel - Where were you when I needed you? The '68 democratic convention and the running street fight with the Chicago police. The Hough-Glenville riots in Cleveland, trying to smuggle my black co- worker and his family out past the National Guard. And Vietnam. You ain't seen NOTHING, baby! But that's simply a function of time and history. I didn't ask for that mess, either. It was thrown in my face. Kinda like a custard pie. After the initial shock, you may actually get something useful out of it. So, keep your powder dry. Just don't burn your fingers on the fuse.

Okay, now I REALLY gotta go.


P.S. Oh, Vicki. One more thing. While we're watching the war, maybe you can help me figure out a strategy for keeping the Ohio state motto "With God, all things are possible". Those meanies in the 6th Circuit Court declared it unconstitutional, because it violated the separation of church and state. The Ohio General Assembly voted overwhelmingly to thumb their noses at the court (so to speak). Ahhh...democracy in action. Stay tuned.

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 24, 2000.

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