God must by definition be perfect. Therefore, his creations are perfect. Therefore, the world is perfect.

What is imperfect is human perception of God's world.

-- perfect@god.com (@ .), May 11, 2000

Answers

But I am not perfect and you are not perfect. Take it up with God.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 11, 2000.

perfect sounds like the same mental giant new agerMy 2 cents that posted There is no such thing as evil. in an earlier thread.

-- On Patrol (for_dumb@comments.com), May 11, 2000.

Right again!

Nemesis, believe it or not you ARE perfect, as is everyone and everything. How could God create something that is not perfect? The only thing preventing you from being in nirvana is your illusion that you are not perfect. Forget the illusion, see what is REAL.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 11, 2000.

>> God must by definition be perfect. [...] Therefore, the world is perfect. <<

The problem with this sort of simplistic reasoning is that it is merely definitional. It is playing with words. Sure, you can define the world as perfect. But that cannot serve as evidence the world is perfect.

You might even be right. My point is, don't rely on this sort of wordplay to decide what is true and what is not. You might stumble onto a lucky conclusion that way, but it would only be a coincidence. It is good to master words. But words are gestures and shadows. Don't take them for truth.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), May 11, 2000.

Hawk,

I was being modest. You are right---I AM perfect. It's the rest of you guys...........

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 11, 2000.

We have a winner. Brian takes it, check & mate.

Words are but symbols, folks. Truly inadequate for all but the basest communication. Experience is the best indicator of truth & then only pertaining to the individual experiencer.

I can describe a juicy watermelon to you, but the word picture would only pale in comparison to one taste of said fruit.

Ever have a doctor ask you to rate your pain on a scale of 1-10? A '5' to me might be a '3' to the doctor.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 11, 2000.

Sure, experience is the only way to actually come to terms with reality, but words can help others open doors to awareness that they may have closed due to lack of experience in those areas. That's really what this forum is all about isn't it? Show me your "evidence" that the world is not perfect, and I will give you words that may eventually help you reach the state of awareness when you will know that it is. Otherwise, your mind might remain closed to such awareness.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 11, 2000.

You're lookin' more & more like an al-d clone, Hawk. Different lingo, same mindset. Sorry, I know that's more than a shot across the bow.

It's not normally my way to be so blunt. I just can't fathom how anyone could honestly believe mere words could do what you, and al-d, seem to believe they can.

Then again, I don't know all that is possible. And yes, that's what forums such as this are all about.

Go figure.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 11, 2000.

"I just can't fathom how anyone could honestly believe mere words could do what you, and al-d, seem to believe they can."

When did I say that???

I have repeatedly said that experience is necessary, but words are often part of the process. Sounds like you are being defensive because you made a categorical statement that words are "inadequate". They are not as adequate as the actual experience, but they are often an integral part of getting there. Experiences don't just happen, we create them.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 11, 2000.

My point was not so much that words are incapable of expressing important matters. You can get words to convey reasonably accurate approximations, making them a good and valuable tool. When you know something, or grasp an idea, then you can apply words to what you know and convey your idea to another person.

What I wanted to point out was that what perfect@god.com appeared to be doing in that neat little syllogism was going bass-ackwards, reasoning from words to reality. Using words as the basis or foundation for a conclusion about reality. And that is a dangerous methodology for reaching an understanding of the world's nature. It is a house built on sand.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), May 11, 2000.

Hawk, I have observed your statements for a long time (not counting the imposter who used your name). My faith is not an issue, but the things I am dealing with in the physical world have amazed me to the point of being unable to be amazed at anything further. To begin with" auto repairs, one after another to physical money flying from shallow pockets. Then well is running dry (sole source of water), then tonight, I turn on the a/c (hot as blazes), and the compressor doesn't work. (First time cut on since last summer). We are talking "If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all". Hawk, these mechanical devices apparently are in the state of "imperfect". Just as I am, a human. Are you saying my current status originates and lives only in my mind?

-- Seeking to (dwellin@nothermind.com), May 11, 2000.

Seeking, it is your choice to see these experiences as imperfect, and that is part of the free will that comes with the perfection that God has created. In reality, the "imperfect" condition of things with which you surround yourself is a way for you to come to an understanding of your own existence. You are learning. In other words, without darkness, there is no light. The real perfection comes into play when you understand that YOU have total power to fix those things that are "broken", and even in fact, change the entire reality which you choose to experience. Rather than seeing yourself as a servant to your physical circumstances, empower yourself, and you will see just how perfect things really are.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 11, 2000.

Jonathon Livingston Seagull-Hawk

-- (ommmm@ommmm.ommmm), May 12, 2000.

I don't meditate if that is what you are inplying. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), May 12, 2000.

Please smack me with a golf shoe in the forehead. Anyone. Call me the anti-Flint. I've earned it. I was terse when I should have taken the time to e-lu-ci-date. Apologies.

Hawk, send me an e-mail if you don't mind.

With tail between the legs,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), May 12, 2000.

I'm perfect or as perfect as I can be, depends on your criteria

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.co), May 12, 2000.

Hang on now, Brian. If he is trying to win this argument in court I think he's on the right track by manipulating definitions. (It worked for Billy Bob.)

-- aqua (aqu@fin.a), May 13, 2000.

Hawk, this mind changing perception, of which you speak, how have you used it to change your physical monetary world? Or have you? Or does monetary gain even enter the picture, maybe it is only mental "tood". Mental "tood" is good, far out weighs monetary, if one had to make a choice. Please just don't tell me to give away all my earthly possessions, don a flowing white sheet and sell flowers at the airport, ummmmmmm.

-- Seeking to (dwellin@nothermind.com), May 13, 2000.