I'll start - Briefs, boxers when I wan't to feel "special". White fruit of the loom like God intended, none of that colored or flowery stuff.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 07, 2000

Answers

No underwear, usually.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 07, 2000.

Haven't owned any in almost 30 years.

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), May 07, 2000.

I wore some underwear a few years ago I think, boxers as I recall. Mostly I go sans.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 07, 2000.

LOL FactFinder.

Briefs exclusively here. "Hanes" brand in a variety of colors.

This of course, now begs the question: (Ya know that ridiculous overlapping flap that eventually turns into an "opening" in the front of briefs?) "Through the labyrinth" (or) "Over the top"?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

"Through the labyrinth" (or) "Over the top"?

HUH???

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 07, 2000.

ROFL Cherri. Um, CD, you better 'splain it, you started it...

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 07, 2000.

Obviously Cherri has never tried to work her way thru the labyrinth or seen one over the top.... LMAO !!!!!!

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), May 07, 2000.

whitie-tighties...I like to keep The Boys close to home...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), May 07, 2000.

ROFL Cherri. Um, CD, you better 'splain it, you started it... - FactFinder

LOL (Thanks a lot FF!) - Uh... Cherri... Could you repeat the question please? [Hoping she has forgotten all about it and moved on to another thread so I can dodge having to answer her.]

So Uncle Bob, "through" or "over"?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000.

CD...

Over the top...never, ever through...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), May 07, 2000.

CD -

"Through the labyrinth" (or) "Over the top"?

You won't get off that easy. Cherri may have left for awhile but I'm here now and would love to hear you splain that one.

Uncle Bob -

Careful. It's not healthy to keep the boys too close to home.

As for me ... it's high rise white cotton all the way! Do tend to go without often as I am not the laundry queen.

-- Debra (whata@conversation.com), May 07, 2000.

WHAT! No leapord print T-backs for you gals?

Nodda,none,ever never: )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 07, 2000.

None for me, thanks. My girlfriend likes it that way...

<:)=3

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

Mine are mostly silk or lace thongs. I hate panty lines! Also, strongly prefer silk boxers on my men...shantung silk has a nice hand to it < g >. Briefs on a man look damn silly to me...very unsexy. They remind me of those ridiculous lycra speedos. Hmmm...have never seen a man attempt to go through the labyrinth. The men I have known well enough to know such things about have all been over the top...in many ways. The women asking questions about that need to get out more.

-- (Boxer@wars.com), May 08, 2000.

CD -

Is this kind of like over the top, only on the opposite side?

(Sound on is necessary for full effect)

-- Debra (??@??.com), May 08, 2000.

Briefs, dress to the left.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 08, 2000.

Lol - You got it Debra.

Nemesis- You know of course, now Cherri and Debra will be asking you to 'splain "dress right or left".

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

This question reminds me of a joke that Letterman (I think) used during the 96 Presidential election:

Bill Clinton was asked at a press conference if he wore boxers or briefs. He replied that he wore boxers (this was pre-Lewinski!). Later the same day, Bob Dole was asked the same question. He thought a moment and then said, "depends".

Toodle-pip!

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

What is this, a survey?! =oP

Actually...depends upon my mood AND my clothes. Cacique makes good unders.

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), May 08, 2000.

The "labyrinth effect" usually kicks in when said dudeman is too intoxitated to stand up steadily or if at all or when experiencing abnormally negative climatic temperatures.

The "L" effect while intoxitated is responsible for ankle sprains,bouts of inertia displacement (falling down) and and inordinate amounts of "attack zipper" abrasions.

The "L" effect is also prevailent among those geneticaly challenged.

This message is brought to you courtesy of the Labyrinth Commission : )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 08, 2000.

Ladies: Underwire? Front or back closure? Pantyhose or thigh-highs? Sandal foot or sheer toe? Is this more than we really want to know?

-- (Victoria's got@secret.xxx), May 08, 2000.

The literary magazine at my high school had a motto, "Semper ubi sub ubi" -- which, they told me, was Latin for "Always where under where".

-- Chicken Little (panic@forthebirds.net), May 08, 2000.

Briefs, dress left, labrynith if in formal dress otherwise over the top. God I hate new underwear. Though I may have to consider hanging loose given the trend of the survey responses. Gotta watch those zippers though. Ouch! Given my handle though maybe I had better stay coralled.

How come most of the ladies haven't responded to this most scientific survey. Keep after those essential facts, factfinder

-- Monkey Spanker (spanking@way.com), May 08, 2000.

Cotton if I will be taking them off, lace if someone else will...

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Personally, ah'm thinkin of freeballin' a bit this summer. Am not the laundry-king, either.

-- moikal (n'ermind@free.bee), May 08, 2000.

Cherri:

It's much faster to simply pull the elastic of the brief under the penis and urinate over the top than it is to poke around trying to deliver the penis through the silly flap in the front. My bet is that the flap is a throw-back to the long underwear days when the entire garment was one piece.

I would think that "dress to the left" refers to a common practice of delivering the penis through the left leg hole rather than pulling the elastic down and under. This practice facilitates "shaking" without concern about a few drops being inadvertently wiped onto the shorts in the "return to position" movement.

Underwear preference for me is a function of place and time. Hose fits into the same category. Cotton bikinis are my preference for an active life. Mostly cotton bras that close in the front are preferred for an active life as well. Lace tends to be scratchy [especially when newly purchased.] Regarding thongs, I'm reminded of the words of a Miami grandmother who observed young women in thong bikinis on the back of motorcycles. She said, "I spent half my life trying to keep my underwear out of the crack of my ass, and now women BUY it that way." One must get accustomed to a thong in underwear much like one must get accustomed to a thong sandal. My daughters wear them with no discomfort.

When does one exchange comfort for sex appeal? When does one wear no underwear at all? These are questions of motive in addition to freedom, are they not? In an office environment, where one sits most of the day, it makes sense to wear comfortable underwear that doesn't draw attention to gender. We're there to do a job, not attract a mate. If we're going to a nightclub, we make a different choice either to attract a mate or titillate our mate.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

"Personally, ah'm thinkin of freeballin' a bit this summer. Am not the laundry-king, either."

What I wonder is, those who don't wear underwear, how clean are your pants? Do you lunder your pants daily? Logic would dictate that lundering underwear in the sink is faster and easier than lundering pants...with break tracks.

I wear cotton Victoria's Secret, of all colors and ...stripes. Leopard ones I keep for special occasions. (Cotton is most comfortable and healthy for ladies.)

Semper ubi sub ubi. (Made it my motto, great one.)

-- (y@x.x), May 08, 2000.

Good guess, 'Nita, but you blew it (oops, Freudian slip?) on the dress left or right issue. Ask a men's taylor.

I wear boxers now. Satin ones if I can afford them. Lordy, if I had only know about them sooner, I never would've gotten married.

When I was a kid, my momma made me wear brief. She said that unrestrained, it would grow to hang down around my knees. I thought, "Yeah, and there's a down side to this?"

--------------------

-- someone (you@all.know), May 08, 2000.

Someone:

Here's my second guess. If one were to assume that discomfort would ensue from having the penis poke onto the crotch of boxer shorts, could "dress left or right" mean that the penis is "directed" to the left or right leg of the boxer shorts?

Y:

I agree. Cotton absorbs moisture, yet "breathes." Nylon has no "breathing" qualities and absorbs NOTHING. I believe it's for this reason that pantyhose come with a cotton crotch in most instances. I also agree with the cleaning question. Much like the pores expel impurities through perspiration, the vagina and penis expel impurities through discharge associated with a fluid. Depending on the severity of the impurity, the discharge expelled may/may not have an odor. Although the presence of an objectionable odor automatically indicates a problem worthy of treatment, a discharge minus objectionable odor is STILL a discharge, which would sit [waiting for external bacterial growth to manifest] in an article of clothing. If the clothing is not washed prior to the next wearing, the external bacteria may now be exposed to the areas of original discharge, introducing new bacteria. Is this discussion becoming as comical to y'all as it is to me?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

I just couldn't pass this one up.

First, thanks for the "labyrinth" take. Because I'm in a thread now over at EZ where there's a debate over some laws. And now I can say something like,

"... those laws are nothing but a labyrinth. Like...well...like you know when a guy...um..." (well, I'll work on it.)

And then my opponent (especially if a male) would go,

"Ah yes, eve! Now it's all clear to me -- I finally know exactly what you mean! Thank you, thank you, thank you! You win."

Anyway, I've always felt most comfortable, as well as sexiest (go figure!), in plain cotton...

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

Bingo, 'Nita. Not so much in boxers, but in pants and jeans with tight crotch-seams.

"How's it hangin'" aint just a greeting, ya know!

---------

-- someone (you@all.know), May 08, 2000.

(I posted this over on the Fruitcake Forum, but it looks like it fits better here, regarding the inherent dangers of wearing "dainties")

---------

Well, I'm back from my trip to town to get a present for the missus. Unfortunately, the security guard was hangin' around the Victoria's Secret store, and since I thought he might remember me from that little incident when I jumped up on a table full of ladies undies and did a "snow Angel", I figgered I better go on down to ole Fred's of Hollywood.

Anyhow, I got a nice pair of frilly drawers for the ole gal. They were candy-stripe red and reached plum down to the knees. I couldn't see any reason they was put on sale. And the missus did like 'em, at first, anyhow.

But then, just yesterday, it was real windy, and well, you probably can guess what happened. I imagine it happens all the time in windy places, but it was a first for us on the bayou. The missus went out to gather eggs, and didn't have them things cinched up real tight, and the wind caught 'em and jerked 'em down right around her ankles. That in inself scared the chickens so bad they probably won't lay for weeks, but it got worse, quick. Bein's that them bloomers was designed to be somewhat sexy and tight, but still stretchy enough for the "derriere with a future", so to speak, they caught on her ankle bones, and filled with wind 'til they looked like one of them big sails on rich folks' boats. Then they started to drag her feet first across the pasture and into the bayou. (Luckily she was face down, so the scars won't show much.)

Well, you can just picture it. There she was, sailing down the bayou with them great big drawers puffed out, dog-paddlin' backwards like crazy, and all the time, bein' what you might call "sunny-side-up". As luck would have it, she sailed right by the Jiggle Juice factory, where she got a standing ovation from the assorted derelicts who were on quality control duty.

But, all's well that end's well, they say. She finally drug up in the mud flats down by Ledue's Bait and Gumbo Shack, where she was rescued by Lester's duck dog. And it turns out that she impressed the whole community so much, that Iggie and me are already plannin' the first annual Jiggle Juice Bare Bottomed Bloomer Regatta. We figger it'll be right up there with that America Cup thing where they race around Australia or something ever so often.

(I bet it makes us all rich as skunks, too!)

Commodore Ole Lo

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), May 08, 2000.

Geez FF, you are getting as bad as FS....

To be brief, my 2cents worth, No undies for me., hate underwire bras, wash pants DAILY.

A must if you are a no panty kinda gal..

LOVES thigh highs, thinks theyre the bomb, so does hubby.

Black lace, red lace, white lace, and Ambviance is my Favorite honey do list.

Likes my man w/silk pj's and loves to sleep naked.

Damn, is this beginning porn 101?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 08, 2000.

Briefs. Black. Always.

Well, I am the Laundry King. I used to live with this woman who didn't seem to know how to run the washer. Or maybe she just had a brief fetish, but she was always borrowing (and wearing!) my clean undies (we had the same waist size).

At first, I'll admit that I thought this was really weird, but then I decided it was sexy in a kinky sort of way.

Haven't met any women like that since...

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

kb8,

What would have even been more kinky, would have been if you had worn her undies. Did ya? Come on, you can tell us....

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), May 08, 2000.

Donna:

Before you get too excited, I'll tell ya that there's virtually no difference between cotton "Jockey for her" and "Jockey for him." We both wear the bikini variety here, and I've confused the two on SEVERAL occasions. Of course bikini's don't take a waist-size into account. We do our laundry separately now. I never ask "Do you have any underwear to fill a load?" anymore.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Anita, I was thinking more along the lines of the tiny silk ones, or maybe lace, or how about the thongs. But agreed, with the other, there really isn't that much difference.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), May 08, 2000.

*would have been if you had worn her undies. Did ya?

Nope. I only wear black briefs. I will confess: once, when I was about five or six, we didn't have water for some reason for a week, and I had the choice of wearing my sister's panties (clean) or doing without. I did without. Talk about rough material...

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

wool longhandles with the flap in the back..wool keeps one cool year round

-- yosemite sam (prospecting@desert.com), May 08, 2000.

kb8,

but did you ever think about it?

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), May 08, 2000.

*but did you ever think about it?

Maybe I did, but just long enough to think ... GAD! WHAT AM I THINKING? GIRL COOTIES! 8-)

Okay, Sheeple, if you're going to get into intimate stuff, explain this business about "winged panty liners." I do understand why some women might want to wear a panty liner sometimes, but what's so special about "wings"? This is a serious question that I don't dare ask in the real world.

Must be the weather... I can't believe what I just typed.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

kb8,

Winged panty liners.... Tough one. Honestly, I think that they are to protect those (silk or cotton or whatever) undies from getting a permanent stain. Sometimes accidents occur, and well... a little protection goes a long way. I mean I wouldn't want to wear a pair of undies that have a dark stain on them.... would you?

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), May 08, 2000.

K8 for shame (snickering MAO)

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT LIKE GRAPHICS, SCROLL DOWN!!!!!!

Winged = more protection, some women flow real heavy, and FWIW, I call them 2x4's. This pertaining to 'winged pads', as for winged panty liners, I didnt know they had those, do they? :-}

And if so, how do you know? ;<0 oh my......

weird you all are weird today.......

and to 'think' you all question me?

Pleaseeeeeee.....FS, come on, does your wife wannna mud wrestle? :)

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 08, 2000.

I'm only here for a few minutes, while way-laid from writing an internet friend regarding the "care package" I'm sending her. In this "care package" is a package of Kroger regular Maxi plus Trim Wings that I bought for Y2k in case SO's daughter needed them. The instructions state "Trim Wings keep pad securely in place for extra panty protection." This is listed for No. 2 on the diagram [which points to ONE of the wings.] No. 3 points to the other wing, and says "Channels direct moisture into the pad." Both "wings" appear to be at the very center of the pad. No. 4 relates to adhesive, which "keeps pad from shifting." The number looks like it covers the entire bottom of the pad [including wings?]

Kb8: I must admit I have the same question as you. I had to wear panty liners once when I had a vaginal infection, and the width of the liner meant that the adhesive stuck to my legs on each side [NOT a comfortable feeling.] I can only ASSUME that these wings fold over one's panties [to keep pad from shifting], but the instructions don't say what to do, and how would this channel direct moisture into the pad?

If you get an answer to THIS one, ask what women put in those big purses.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

*blush*Geeze Anita, you could have written me privatly....

I always thought that was just a decoration, the opening is too small and you'd think it would squish..it, bend it around one way then the other which would be impossible in the morning for most men.

My foster son didn't aim too well but after cleaning the tilet and walls a few times he lurned how to do it right, I've heard a lot of stories about the games men p[lay-one of the advantages of working in a mans world *grin*

I know about dressing to the side though, from SO, when dancing slow I always like to um...get him ...anyway it become obvious which side he dresses on. It is the side the penis is layed up against the body on-taylors make more room on that side for it. Since SO does the laundry, or most of it, (cooking and dishes-makes the kids do the rest) I'm the greasmonkey, lawn mower, shelf builder. It works good for us.

Anyway, silky bikini when I was younger, and stationed in warm places like Texas and Fla. Here in rainy Seattle full cotton for warmth, except in summer I don't wear any under long dresses when it is warm. The wings thing is because the menstral fluid (blood which has been coagulated and redesolved-not actuall bleeding-as I had to explain to a pilot in an Airforce who said women shouldn't fly Fighters because they would "bleed to death" at high G's) it is natorious for spreading and without wings, walking and sitting can cause it to run over the sides on to the panties. Glad I got rid of the cause of that and don't have to think about it any more. Anyone else use the rythem method of birth control?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 08, 2000.

(Blushing madly)Thanks for the replies. I guess the "wings" would help as an anchor. I was thinking that they would cause the panty material to pucker, which would decrease the surface area, thus increasing the "accident" factor? Forgive me, but I do remember when one of the young secretaries had an especially heavy flow and left a spot on one of the fabric chairs in the meeting room. I worked as a janitor for a time and understood the importance of getting to that spot right then before it set, embarrassment or no.

Whoever said that we are weird today is right. I left my tinfoil hat off today. Maybe I shouldn't have.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

Anita -- re: BIG purses. I KNOW better than to ask a woman what's in there. I've seen my mother and sister and a few girlfriends clean them out. VERY SCARY. One of my dates from Hell involved a strange lady from Ypsi (MI). We were waiting for a movie to start, and she started cleaning out her purse. The weirdest thing was a plastic compact full of dead moths. This young lady was saving them for her brother's junior science project. If that had been all, I probably would've gone out with her again, but she also had some drugs in that purse, drugs that I had no use for.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

I always thought that was just a decoration, the opening is too small and you'd think it would squish..it, bend it around one way then the other which would be impossible in the morning for most men.

Cherri,

Watch your SO sometime when he's running around wearing only underwear. See how the material moves and gives? I think that's the real reason for the design: comfort. Obviously, some designs are better for some body types than others. I happen to like Hanes (as someone else mentioned) -- I like the cut. When I was a poor college student, I bought some K-Mart brand briefs. Eeeeeeeeeee. Talk about tight...

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

bvds are best, tho hard to find around here. hanes is second choice, fruit of the loom are terrible. as for me, its always over the top.

-- ed (edrider007@aol.com), May 08, 2000.

Things have improved from the time I started, we used to have swings. actual belts with clips to hold pads on, no plastic on the bottom of them either so accdents (real or not) were used as a good excuse to go home for the day from school. It was not until advertizements became popular that things improved. It was like walking with a banana between your legs, (poor men).Life is getting better though, there is a pill out that allows women to only menstruate 4 times a year, which is good for them and in some cases the people around them.

One of the things I learned from working with mostly or only men is that no one tells them much of anything about how womens bodies work.It was bad enough that some woen were never told what would happen to them, my Aunt thought she was dying when she started.

It was kinda cool that they felt comfortable enough to ask questions.

From the early days when I was the first there was that "male locker room" attitude that existed, I pretty much ignored it, I understood what was going on and I would play dumb and pretend I didn't understand what they were saying or as if I had not heard it.

I would get back at them though, eating a banana slowly, or a big pickle which I would bite the end off of and innocently suck the juice out of while soldering or repairing something. *evil grin*

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 08, 2000.

So is there adhesive on the wings? I'd have to agree with the "banana" opinion, Cherri. Fortunately, I learned about tampons after only one month of using those things. Both have been out of my life for a while now, as I began menopause at 39. Once the whore moans were completely gone, the doctor suggested hormone replacement therapy. I complied. I like my bones, and intend to keep them. However, there's a down-side to everything, and I gained 25 pounds from the HRT. I thought I'd never stop "developing." My cousin told me about a co-worker who went up to a 64" bust after HRT. I couldn't imagine that. How did she walk? Of course he never mentioned her STARTING weight, and I was so thin that 10 or 15 pounds were a welcome addition. Hopefully I'll be able to shed the 10 extra once the pool water gets warm enough to do laps. If not, I'll grow old with a "matronly" figure like everyone else.

I never had a problem discussing ANYTHING with the guys at work, and I was also the only female in a man's world for a VERY long time. I began University thinking I'd major in math, but got so interested in Biology that I switched majors. After 3 years of Biology, I got physically sick from the fumes in the organic chemistry lab. Chemistry was the required minor for Biology majors. I switched majors again, then, to Computer Science. My family thought I was going to be a professional student. Sex and reproduction of the various earth species STILL fascinates me. Actually, ANYTHING associated with Biology fascinates me. I'm the one who captured E. Vermicularis and threw it under the microscope when the kids were young and got pin worms. I'm the one who captured a louse, threw it under the mic and showed the kids how the blood pulsed through the body. Life itself is so damned interesting. How can ANYONE be embarrassed?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

Anita:

Yes there is adhesive on them there wings, and they oft times then not stick to private hairs...oooowwwweeee..

Tampons cramp so bad I cant wear them.

As for the winged 2x4's I prefer calling it "riding the cotton pony"

Anita, I am just now experiencing the perimenapausal garbage....Had a DNC a few weeks ago, hormones are ALL outa whack...

Doctor is considering hormone therapy...said there is also a drug in (are you ready for this?) Prozac which helps elevate the hormone level.

My reply "yeah and everything else" 4 get the prozac....NEVER.

I'll die or eliminate the family 1st....LOL...

BTW, did you experience the hate/love episodes I've been having?

Hubby took me to lunch today and I busted out crying, came home and was ready to hurt somebody, moody....it is AWFUL.

For those uninterested, sorry, I am really concerned over this.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 08, 2000.

At the Las Vegas post-Y2K symposium, I can definitely envision an underwear fashion show. Yikes!

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 08, 2000.

Consumer,

Don't rule out the Prozac hon,it's not as bad as you think.I'm not a pill popper myself,especially those kind but quite a few people very close to me are shining examples of its merit.Look at it this way,if you don't like it quit takin' it,do shots of tequilla or something (1st wifes mother insisted on Old Grandad 100 proof and took up smokin'reeefer for that).

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 09, 2000.

Capn:

I'd consider the marihooch for 'medicinal' purposes only...

-----still remembering the head knock from the weekend so the booze is outtda question....

I have tried the liquour to ease the symptoms, but cant hang w/the hangovers.

Marijuana for medicinal purposes.....hmmmmm...wonder what doc would say?

She told me to take benedryl for the 'calming' effect...?????

Liqour was quicker, but as you can see,,,,consumer get drunk, get stupid...so nahhhh....

----still pondering the marihooch though...LOL.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 09, 2000.

Consumer:

I got through it all without killing anyone. Like every OTHER biological phase of life, I was VERY curious about it, and read everything I could get my hands on. You can expect very strange physical manifestations, including [but not limited to], tingling in the limbs, headaches, unprovoked anxiety [accompanied by the flight or fight response], hot-flashes, etc. In general, you'll be as unbalanced as your teens were when THEIR hormones were changing. I can't say it was fun, but I can't say it was hell either.

Like most things, it affects everyone differently and the duration is different for everyone. We've all heard about the hot-flashes and the moodiness, but who ever told us about symptoms that simulated serious diseases? Who ever said we'd get constant headaches for years? SO and I look back on those few years and laugh. HE says I was moody. *I* say he just pissed me off. Think about the future, Consumer. You'll never menstruate again. You'll never have to worry about birth control again. Your mind will be perhaps clearer than it's ever been before.

I never heard that prozac did ANYTHING to balance hormones. When I went to the doctor at 39, they told me they didn't test anyone under 40. They gave me a pregnancy test and sent me home. You may want to try some of the herbal stuff that's advertised. *I* didn't, but I've always had this attitude of "This is my life. I want to experience this." I did the same with childbirth. I didn't want the "help" of drugs. I wanted the experience. [I DID take analgesics for the headaches, however.]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

Ken,

LOL!! But, you didn't answer the question!?

-- inquiring minds (want@to.know), May 09, 2000.

Anita:

How can I say 'thanks' you are so kind...

I have been experiencing the migraines now for 1 1/2 yrs., first narcotics, then latest is ZOMIG, non-narcotic, it is heaven, 20 min and poof no more migraine.

Thnks for helping me to see the bright side, have had hot flashes, fight/flight, hubby thinking i'm losing mind.

Children they RUN from me....lol. is this the bright side too? (EG)

Herbal products, yeah, i just started taking ginko bilboa and i also take b-12 and potassium for leg cramping.

Any other herbals you recommend? Dont really like marijuana...been there in teens done that, got high, got stupid, got hungry, sleepy.

Yuck.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 09, 2000.

Consumer,

If it works don't worry about the doc,it's not his/her ass feelin' like that little bell whose hit by the sledge-hammer thingee at the fair,and besides you might like it,there are worse hobbies to indulge in.It works for a number of women I know at present and they are not exactly what you would describe as party animals.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), May 09, 2000.

Marijuana IS illegal, people!!!

-- (L@wman .with a search warrant), May 09, 2000.

We haven't moved TOO off-topic from underwear, eh?

Consumer:

There's a vitamin/mineral supplement called Menopause I. [I know because I have a half-empty jar in my kitchen cabinet.]

A friend suggested Wild Yam Root in addition to Dong Quai [female ginseng]. Fo-Ti and Valerian Root are known for their relaxation qualities.

Now that I think about it, I was downing vitamins and herbs like there was no tomorrow during this period. I can't say any of them helped, but how would I know? I suppose it could have been far WORSE.

If you're getting MIGRAINE headaches, you've got a serotonin imbalance, but you shouldn't be getting migraines at the same time you're experiencing anxiety. Anxiety typically indicates a LOW level of serotonin, and migraines indicate too much. Prozac WOULD help with the anxiety, but it might exacerbate the migraines.

I wouldn't recommend Marijuana, as it tends to amplify each experience. Alcohol tends to "deaden" experiences, so I'd go that route if I had a choice between the two and I were in YOUR shoes.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

God am I sorry I asked where all the responses from the women were. Thanks for some interesting insight.

-- Monkey Spanker (spanking@way.com), May 09, 2000.

As worn by females?

Three words.

Strawberry.

Quickly edible.

-- Chicken Little (panic@forthebirds.net), May 09, 2000.

consumer -

Four of the most simple, basic, natural things to help with the anxiety (and other symptoms) include:

1. Diet - there are many things you can do here to help but the biggest, IMHO, include giving up coffee, alcohol and sugar. Eat lightly six to eight times a day. It is important to keep the blood sugar level even.

2. Exercise - especially stretching is very helpful in dealing with stress. I would put on some music and "dance". The "dancing" would be in the form of a stretching movement. I guess you would call it exotic dancing. The choice of music (beat and words) would start with something matching my mood and "evolve" during the session into something else. I always learned much about my feelings by paying attention to my choice of music, which was based upon the type of movement my body needed.

An example would be:

I might start with something on the "deeper and darker" side like "Papa don't Preach" by Madonna or "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves" by Cher. My next choice might explore that movement and thought further or may "bring" me to another level. In other words I may discover there is not too much behind that "dark" feeling on a particular day and by discovering that I will naturally choose something more upbeat. Maybe "Borderline" by Madonna. From there it may evolve into "Uptown Girl" by Billy Joel and then to "Girls Just Want to Have Fun".

It could take you anywhere. The point is the movement relieves the stress. The thought relieves the stress. Together the movement and thought bring you to something "new". I find I can "explore" a feeling very deeply (right down to my muscles), I can "dream" of experiences I'd like to have or I can just have some good old- fashioned fun!

It's during the times that I least feel like doing this that the biggest break-through comes. Once that energy starts moving all things are possible! If I do nothing else this is the ONE I keep.

3. Time by Yourself - very important and self-explanatory.

4. Read, read and read - So many good books on the subject. Two I recommend are: The Silent Passage by Gail Sheehy and The Wise Woman Way by Susun Weed.

Above all it's important to remember that this is an important part of a women's journey. IMHO we need to manage the difficult aspects of this journey and we must CONSCIOUSLY explore the positive aspects.

Anita -

You said you began menopause at 39. Did you mean that you stopped menstruating at 39? If so, that is very young for that to occur.

I'm asking because I did and I have yet to find another woman who has so early. There were things going on in my life at that time and I was also "experimenting" with other things at that time. Not substances but mind-body/body-mind connections. It is truly humbling to be able to experience so deeply how our thoughts create our reality, whether we mean them to or not.

-- Debra (womenandtheir@ways.com), May 09, 2000.

consumer -

To clarify further on the "movement". Sometimes when you're moving you'll find the body wants to naturally move through the hips, other times it may be through the upper back and neck. Sometimes the arms "want their say" and sometimes the thighs.

Stay conscious of where the movement is and what thoughts go with it. You'll find upper body movements deal more with mental stress while lower body movements deal more with physical stress. Emotional stress may present itself as a bending forward or backward through the torso.

If the movement is smooth and flowing you'll tend to want to stay with it as it is comfortable. It's where you feel more "jerky" that needs the attention. The energy here is not "flowing". That's where the work is as well as the "issues".

If you reach a point where your body/muscles begin to shake stay with it. Your body is relieving the stress and a break-through is near. (just be careful the shaking is not due to injury, you'll know the difference)

I find that the flexibility of my body is in direct proportion to the flexibility of my mind and vice versa.

-- Debra (womenandtheir@ways.com), May 09, 2000.

Debra:

"You said you began menopause at 39. Did you mean that you stopped menstruating at 39? If so, that is very young for that to occur."

Yes. That IS what I meant. Actually, I still menstruated whenever I went to a third-world country. No joke! I kept my tampons in my backpack. I remember my son asking me in Costa Rica: "BTW, mom, are you still only menstruating in third-world countries?" I said, "Yep." Regarding a young age, my research into the subject indicated that women of Northern European descent tend to start menstruation later and end earlier. One of my two daughters was 15 before she menstruated. In contrast, women of Mediterranean descent may menstruate as early as 9 or 10 and continue until their late 50's.

"New Passages" is definitely a great book. I recommend it as well, Consumer.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

>Actually, I still menstruated whenever I went to a third-world country.

I had planned on lurking throughout the rest of this thread -- I've said enough! -- but I have to ask ... how is this possible? My understanding of the female cycle is somewhat sketchy, but don't a lot of women ovulate about 15 (or so) days before their periods? Are you saying that something in a third world country caused you to ovulate? If so, I'm sure there are many women with marginal fertility who would like to know more. If not, what did you eat or do that would have some an effect on your hormones (LH, FSH, etc.?)

This is very interesting.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 09, 2000.

Consumer:

Kava Kava is excellant for stress. The valerian is good, too, but may make you sleepy-that is the problem with the benadryl-drowsiness. My wife just bought a book on homeopathic treatment of menopause symptoms-she has decided against hormone therapy when the time comes.

I will get the name of the book and post it here.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 09, 2000.

Heartfelt thanks to 'all' for the many suggestions, re: books and herbs....legal and illegal (lol)

Kava Kava, hmmmm, I went home last nite and drand ginseng tea from a korean store and got me jump started for energy enough to make dinner.

Just got off phone w/doctor, told a no-go with the prozac deal.

Informed me I have fibroid tumors too.... ****sigh****

man its a bitch getting old.....

FS, I'll await your response.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 09, 2000.

consumer, do you mean vaginal fibroid tumors? Does anything medically have to be done about that, or can you just live with them?

-- (Would re@lly like .to know), May 09, 2000.

KB8:

We're not talking about "normal" cycles when we discuss menopause. SOME women bleed continuously for 60-90 days. Some women abruptly cease menstruating. Other women menstruate "randomly." MY "randomly" coincided with trips to third-world countries. Could it be psychological? I would think so. My choice of protection either wasn't readily available in these countries, or I didn't THINK it was.

FS:

Your wife will ultimately make the decision that she feels best for her, but I was pretty hard-headed about the HRT myself. My preference has always been to allow nature to take it's course. After 3 doctors told me I should be on HRT for my bones alone, I visited my mom at her type-B facility and observed old women bent over from osteosporosis. Estrogen prevents bone loss. It's that simple. If one still has a uterus [which I do], progesterone is added to thwart the ill side-effects of estrogen alone. Too much progesterone causes massive weight gain. Not enough progesterone encourages break-through bleeding. We're still in the "balancing" stage on this one. I don't want to be fat, but I don't want stained underwear either.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

Regarding that kava-kava, is there something there that doesn't simply equate to St. John's Wort? I didn't include St. John's Wart when I discussed herbs with consumer on this thread because I'm still not convinced that she has a SHORTAGE of serotonin if she's experiencing MIGRAINE headaches. Perhaps she doesn't even know the difference between a MIGRAINE headache and a "normal" bad headache.

I'll take a few minutes to describe the differences between a migraine headache and a normal bad headache. In a migraine headache, one experiences flashing lights, or vision that is obstructed by a field of [for lack of a better description] vertical Z's. It's kindof like a bent prism to the eye, including colors. Focusing during this period is impossible. No matter where you look, you find this vertical chain of Z's obstructing your vision. This visual sensation may/may not be followed by a bad headache. Personally, I STILL get the migraine visual experience but no longer get the headaches that once followed.

What do migraines have to do with serotonin? Serotonin is the enzyme that transfers signals CORRECTLY from the body to the brain. The body releases serotonin into a POOL. When serotonin is required, the body looks to the pool for available resources. It's more like a secretarial pool than a swimming pool. If no serotonin is required, the body gathers the serotonin, exhausting the pool. The term for this is "reuptake." Unless one takes drugs that have for quite a while been removed from the marketplace, there's no way to force the body to produce more serotonin. [It's no coincidence that the drugs that actually reproduced serotonin in the body were removed from the market prior to the introduction of Prozac, but that's a topic for another thread.] As it stands today, we're left with various reuptake inhibitors. These reuptake inhibitors essentially tell the body "I don't care WHAT you say. You're going to leave the serotonin in the pool."

There are a number of reuptake inhibitors, ranging from natural to chemical. St. John's wort is a reuptake inhibitor, as is Kava-Kava [in the natural arena.] Xanax and prozac are simply chemical versions of alprazolam [which do the same thing as the natural reuptake inhibitors, only better.] They're both habit-forming to some degree. Buspar is the replacement drug for alprazolam with no addictive side-effects. Of course natural or not, these drugs are expensive. St. John's wort runs about $10.00 for 100 capsules. The folks I know who use it as a replacement for prozac pop 3 or 4 at a time. A generic alprazolam costs about $9.00 for 30. Buspar [in contrast] costs over $100 for a 30-day supply.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

Most of the literature on St. John's Wort states that it is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, and that its m ode of action is similar to the very first class of anti-depressants that came on the market in the 40's. If indeed it does work this way, people starting on it should be warned to watch intake of cheeses and wine-there is an ingrediant in both that interacts negatively with MOA inhibitors.

Just a word to the wise.

Anita-thanks for the info. I myself am going to do more research on it, to help myself and be supportive of my wife.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 09, 2000.

If you are thinking of taking St. John's Wort, there have been studies that have linked it to higher risks of glaucoma. If you take St. John's Wort, it is advised that you wear sunglasses when outside on sunny days as it will help prevent the eye damage. They ran a story on St. John's Wort one night on the news, and I did some light reading on the subject. If anyone wants a link to what I just mentioned, I'll try to find it although it may take me a while.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), May 09, 2000.

Ditto for me, too: Thanks, Anita. I need to educate myself further, I see.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), May 09, 2000.

Sheeple:

You are correct. Someone I know took st john's wort and got a skin rash the first day-she sat in a window full of sun.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 09, 2000.

Zolof is a distant cousin of prozac, it does not have all the side effects some people can get from prozac. My mother had been chronically depressed for 15 years, the Dr.'s had given her all the usual antidepressants.. Some which almost killed her. My Dr. Gave me Zolof after the death of my last son and it helped me be normal rather than living in a dark, private hell emotionally.When I finally talked my Mothers doctor into giving it to her she was amazed! It takes a few weeks to start working, and my Mother was back to her old self of years ago, no longer sleeping all day and sitting with her head down with the blues. It does not make you "High" or anything, you don't even feel it at all, you just feel normal, not all depressed and gloomy. The difference in her was incredible! We had her back after having lived with someone else after all of those years. She cried one night, asking why they had not given it to her years ago so she would not have wasted so many years in hell.

Not all medications are "bad" for you, a lot are made out of natural things that have been used for centuries in many cultures. Seritonin also helps teenagers relieve some of the worse emotional fluctuations. I say zolof (Seritonin) puts you back in to your normal state.

As for all the fun things that come with menopause, I started mine early, mid-late 30's. Developed my first killer migraine when I was pregnant at 35 with my last son. They have continued for years, when he died at 5 months I was given this and that odd antidepressant, dropped them, they made things not normal. I got foster children 7 months after his death and that did the job of bringing me out of my depression. I was getting ready for HRT when using rhythm failed me for the first time in my life, a sure sign of menopause. After having my last daughter at 38 I went on HRT. I see no reason to suffer those hot flushes and mood swings and bone loss. The HRT works like a charm and reduced my migraines to one a month, which I can look at the moon and know will hit me. I got a hysterectomy in the summer of 1998 (surprised they let e stay over night) and am buzzing along the same as I did in my 20's. It was necessary and it was done through a cut in my belly button and two on the side-real easy when they use a little camera so they don't have to cut you open like before. If you have a lot of problems with the fibroid tumors then your uterus is developing them and breaking down in its previous function. Removing the uterus(while leaving the overies) is not as invasive and tramatic as itt once was. Make sure they leave your overies so your own hormones do not stop complely.

I only wish I had had it done a few years earlier, I was not able to function because of problems. And I don't have to worry about having another menopause baby.

Without worrying about Aunt Edna ever returning. I still have my ovaries and the moon brings on my migraines just as regularly as before, but after years of caffergot and other non helpful meds I started taking immitrix summertription. By injection. I did it my self and I have always been afraid of shots but there are these pen like devices that do all the work as long as you do not jerk your hand back at the poke. The speed the migrain leave is increadably fast and you can actually feel the pain fade away. A lot better than just covering it up with narcotics for days at a time.

Anita I believe in doing things naturally also...to a point, when the contractions with my first daughter got bad I chose an epidural, it allowed me to follow instructions better, especially when told to stop pushing when her head came out with the cord wrapped around her neck. My last daughter was by C-section and it only worked on one side so I got to feel everything they did on my left side.

If Zolof had been available years earlier then my mother would have had almost 2 extra decades of normal life. Not all meds are crutches, they are made to improve quality of life and to lengthen it.

I and my family appreciate the lack of evil mood swings and hostile feelings I was getting since I went on the Hormone replacement Therapy. It is also supposed to help with PMS, I did not experience that since going on the pill at 18, and it never came back when I stopped the pill to use rhythm at 25. I do not believe that we need to suffer just because we are women.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), May 09, 2000.

I've carried the following around in my wallet since I was 17 years old. When I took it out to type here, being so worn at the folds, it fell apart.

I wonder what it was at 17 that made me write it down.

"Moods should require no justification whatsoever. As with little children who feel the way they feel simply because, we too must be permitted to feel because we feel. This especially pertains to very painful and chronically sustained moods involving loss of reality and inability to function. These moods must be accepted with deep respect and sensitivity for the complex and powerful psychodynamics they spring from." ---Signed simply as Zen

I don't disagree with using medication to live a better life. I just wonder if were not cheating ourselves out of the opportunity to learn who we really are.

-- Debra (womenandtheir@ways.com), May 09, 2000.

Cherri, Debra:

Oddly enough, I agree with you BOTH. I've just been researching herbal substitutes for pharmaceutical drugs, etc., in particular the relationship between hypericum [monoamine oxidase inhibitors] and SSRI's [selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.] I ran across Zolof in this research, Cherri. There are so many SSRI's that I can't keep track of them all. I might add for Future's benefit that St. John's Wort is deemed mild as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor and stronger in it's quality as a SSRI. I'm STILL confused about the base of Kava- Kava. The Kava family seems to exist as a family all it's own. I'll get back to you when I find something that gives more information on function than the infomercials.

Cherri: I think you've gone through more burdens than any one woman SHOULD in a lifetime. Serotonin reuptake disorders are definitely hereditary, and NO ONE should suffer. Disorders associated with this malfunction run the gamut from panic to depression to alcoholism to bipolar disorder. Countries like Germany are quite successful in treating these disorders through controlled herbal remedies like St. John's Wort. HOWEVER, the US doesn't control herbal remedies. Independent lab studies have shown that while the most expensive herbal remedy may contain 90-100% of what's listed on the label, the second most expensive herbal remedy may not even contain 50% of what's listed on the label. There's no quality control for the folks who choose a more natural route, and the natural remedies are less selective in their function. It's not like these plants were DESIGNED to cure psychotropic malfunctions. The poisons produced by the plants were designed to kill predators.

Debra:

I wasn't kidding when I told Consumer above that, where my SO thought I was moody, *I* thought he just pissed me off. It's so EASY for significant others to simply brush off a statement or even a thought as being hormonally induced. Is it REALLY, or is one FINALLY sharing a thought that one thought previously unacceptable [even to yourself]?

I have a friend in Chicago [I know...lots of friends there] who had a hysterectomy a few years back. She became unbearable [so they tell me.] The doctor prescribed prozac after a while, and everything was cool again. She was back to her "normal" self. SHE was happy, her husband was happy, and her kids were certainly happy. HOWEVER, I talked to her at length during one visit after that, and I don't think she was REALLY happy. She certainly fell back in lockstep with the person she'd been all her life, but I think it's very questionable whether or not this is the same person she wants to be for the REST OF HER LIFE. They don't call menopause CHANGE OF LIFE for no reason, ya know. I wasn't speaking idly when I told Consumer that she'd think more clearly than she'd ever thought before. There's a realization that hits one which says, "You're on the downhill slide of your life now. If you had your dithers, what would you change?"

Debra:

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 10, 2000.

That last thought of mine must have been REALLY deep, Debra. [From WHERE did that last Debra: come?]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 10, 2000.

you can shake, you can dance, you can bang it on the wall, but it must go back inside your pants before that last damn drop will fall!

-- ed (edrider007@aol.com), May 10, 2000.

yeah ed, you guys have it tough. LOL :)

-- Debra (...@....), May 10, 2000.

St. Johns Wort had no effect on me (good or bad). Same with "SAM-e" (S-adenosylmethionine). But the HRT my doctor put me on last fall has been a miracle. Greatly curtailed the bleeding (my y2k stockpile of tampax will last me way past menopause at this rate). More importantly, it made my monthly flareups (which were getting nearly violent) practically disappear. And so much nicer to be on a schedule. None of the side effects like nausea and vomiting when I was first on the pill 25 years ago.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), May 10, 2000.

Anita -

That last Debra made me search for something "deep". (chuckle)

How's this?:

"With the help of home remedies, herbal allies, and Grandmother Growth's wise words, your post-menopausal years can be vital and beautiful. Remember, the ugly old woman/witch is the invention of male-dominant cultures, and our own fear of death. In peaceful matrifocal cultures, the beauty of crones is legendary: old women are satin-skinned, softly wrinkled, silver-haired, and awe-inspiring in their truth and dignity." --From The Wise Woman Way

Is this a powerful enough thought for women to want to change the world's attitude about us for the sake of our daughters?

I say we should feel our anger, get to know our anger, understand our anger and use our anger with truth and with dignity. There is a knowledge that women have and it's about time it is respected. It has to begin with us.

-- Debra (womenandtheir@ways.com), May 10, 2000.

From small questions do mighty threads grow. I have thoroughly enjoyed following this one. Oh yes, underwear? How do I explain buckskin?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), May 10, 2000.

Hi. Fibroid tumors are 'on the uterus/in the uterus to whoever asked geez this thread is now so long i 4get...good thing i'm taking ginko bilboa. (yeah right, looks like its working?)

Anita:

My migraines Do fit your description....pain begins on left side of head, followed by spots in vision, inability to focus, then bam, full blown headache.

Narcotics 'dulled' the pain, so then I was high and hurting...what fun. FS, tis no fun doing the narcotics when ya need them, is it?lol.

Zoloft, does IT cause weight gain?

Am beginning to wonder if I'm hypochondriac?????

Really fighting w/dr on the prozac issue and WILL NOT budge.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), May 10, 2000.

I detect a severe case of penis envy in Anita's posts...

-- John Henery (@ .), May 10, 2000.

Consumer:

Right no fun when you need them.

But seriously, any SSRI, which is the class of drugs which includes prozaic and zoloft, can lead to weight gain. It can also lead to a decresae in sex drive. I know someone who took another medication while on prozac to stimulate the sexual drive.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), May 10, 2000.

ROFLMAO, What the heck happened here, we started out with a brief (pun intended) discussion of "drawers", and ended up in Gyn 101 and Intro to Mood Altering Substances 101. And gee thanks, ladies, for the gyn lessons, I have learned far more than I ever wanted to know here. I may be scarred for life, lol. (And I've never seen so many people in one group who don't wear underwear!)

And Ed, that was funny!!!

This post was a test of course, to see the responses compared to the responses to the post I made immediately above on computer viruses. I think my virus post right above this one got maybe 6. I lost count of the responses on this thread! Not a scientific test of course, so I do ask that each of you send a sample of your brain tissue to me for a final analysis.

And finally, I must state that I was offended by the "clinical" references to "penis". Outside of the medical field, use of this term is both dimunative and demasculating, and I strongly object to it's usage in this forum. I am of the firm (pun intended) opinion that this most important part of a males anatomy should be referred to in masculine terms only, such as the "Big Johnson" or "Rosco" (short for "Rosco the Pile Driver").

Brooks, good response. Too good, lol.

Now back to computers.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), May 10, 2000.