I am starting a new thread on the subject here. For reference, you can find the links to the previous threads below.

OT-Sex-Ed Question For Pro-Choicers

OT-Abortion the debate continues

FINALLY! A solution to the abortion problem

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000

Answers

gilda

"...discussing drapery fabric over tea and crumpets." Can't say I've ever pictured you in this setting (Grin).

"...meant to induce guilt, sorrow and shame,..." Only for those with a conscience.

"You've chosen to call abortions murder. Some of us choose to call it choice." Yea I know, otherwise you'd have to look at the the reality of what it really is which is killing your child.

"If a woman doesn't have the choice to control her own body," Spare me please, ALL women have a 'choice' to control their bodies. That is unless you are now claiming that 'all' women that have sex have been raped.

"Your God did not write A Word of it." It's takes what YOU don't have any of, faith. But hey, that's a whole other discussion altogether now isn't it?

"If you enjoy it fine, but you needn't preach to the adults here." Hey gilda, don't like it, don't follow the thread. It's easier than changing channels on your TV. Here's how to avoid 'subjecting' yourself to some upsetting things: Before 'clicking' on a thread 1) check who the poster is 2) the subject being discussed 3) choose whether you want to join in. If that doesn't work, click on the 'back button' or 4)STOP WHINING and Deal with it!

Oh and one more thing, DON'T SHOVE *YOUR* ANTI RELIGIOUS BELIEFS DOWN *MY* THROAT!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

gilda

"...and by the way, your article by the writer for World Net Daily is pure bias. WND is a rag!" Is that the best you can come up with to defend what they reported on?

C'mon gilda, you can do better than that.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Patricia

"You said on a previous thread that you had experienced an abortion and this (your actions here on this board) was your way of relieving yourself of the guilt associated with said abortion."

I said:

I speak on this matter from personal experience. I was responsible for the death of my child through an abortion as well. It wasn't until years later when I started to have children that the pain and guilt set in. I also had no "right" to kill my child but I did it anyway.

I have since found peace through forgiveness from God over my 'Choice'.

"How do you think your wife..." She is active as well, trying to spread the untold truth's about abortion.

"...fair to her that you perpetuate the guilt?" There is only guilt for those that realize abortion for what it is, murder. Once they understand it for what it is, they need to seek forgiveness from God for their actions. This is all part of the 'healing' process. Some don't want this message 'preached' because that would mean questioning their own personal values.

"You state "abortion is immoral", but who are you to decide what is moral..." *I* don't. I think most everyone knows by now (or should) that I speak from a Christian point of view first and foremost. Once again, God said in Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

"...yet, 100% of them will never get pregnant." Without them, 100% of the women would never have children. God set it up for man & woman to be part of 'the process' of creating/raising children. Unfortunately, sometimes men don't live up to their responsibilities of raising children as they should.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

jumpoff joe

"I think those moms who have late term abortions are either afraid for their own lives, or they have found out, late in the game, tha their precious "baby" has such severe retardation that they have to give it up for their own, as well as for the fetus's, own good."

Not according to the facts. Many/most late term abortions are done to normal babies.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Fresh eyes this morning? Perhaps you'll have time to read a short subset of the link I provided last week which strictly relates to claims that the Bible is against abortion:

Abortion and Scriptures

As I said last week, I'd be interested in your opinions on this.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita

"Fresh eyes this morning?" You are persistant (Grin).

Yes, I took 'a read' through the article. Boy, do I see hours of discussion time in that one. Over all, my take is T.F. Barans is splitting 'hairs' over specific meanings. I can also argue by asking where does the Bible say specifically abortion on demand is allowed?

Fascinating article, thanks!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Mornin' Stop,

Hope you're well rested.

You wrote:

"I think most everyone knows by now (or should) that I speak from a Christian point of view first and foremost. Once again, God said in Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill."

I spoke about war a bit on the other thread, and made an asumption about what your position would be. Would you frame your position on the morality of sending folks off to war? { Aren't you painting yourself into a box by using both 'murder' & 'kill' in your handle?}

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

"Stop",

You wrote re 'guilt': "There is only guilt for those that realize abortion for what it is, murder. ..... Some don't want this message 'preached' because that would mean questioning their own personal values.".

The phrase (emphasis mine) "...those that realize..." is completely subjective; that is your opinion, not everyone's. All you are really attempting to do here is force your versions of morality and religion upon others. This is evident in your explanation of 'morality': "..... I think most everyone knows by now (or should) that I speak from a Christian point of view first and foremost." Not all on this board align themselves with the christian viewpoint. You are using the bible as your basis in "fact", but not everyone believes the bible to BE "fact". It doesn't mean they're wrong, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean they are bad people.

"Some don't want this ... 'preached'..." not "because that would mean questioning their own personal values", but because they are adults and as such can make their own adult decisions. But you don't see those who disagree with you trying to force their beliefs on you. All these people are doing are showing you where their beliefs come from; what forms the basis for their beliefs. You, OTOH, are flat-out stating that those who disagree with you are immoral; you are sitting there judging these people. If you are truly a christian, I'm pretty sure you can see what's wrong with that picture.

You also said: "I have since found peace through forgiveness from God over my 'Choice'." I don't think you've found "peace" at all; if you had truly found "peace" through "God", you wouldn't have this need to convert others to your way of thinking. This "need" is a clear indication that you have not forgiven yourself and you have not found true peace. As I said before, your release from guilt has to come from yourself; if you don't forgive yourself (and you haven't) you will never find peace. You can deny all you want, but you are the only one who suffers.

Re: "...the untold truth's about abortion": What "untold truths"? The only "untold truths" that I see are those on the "pro-life" side of this issue. It is you who keep facts from those who would want to learn all aspects; it is you who use the same pictures over and over and over to "prove your point". It is you who presents only one side of the issue. The pro-choice people present ALL viable options, including ADOPTION. I don't see any of that coming from you; with you, it's "my way or the highway".

You then state: "Without [men], 100% of the women would never have children. ..... Unfortunately, sometimes men don't live up to their responsibilities of raising children as they should."

At the risk of this sounding like "male-bashing" (it isn't), I have to address this. Seems to me if it were only "sometimes" we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Seems to me if "sometimes men" would realize the world does not belong to them exclusively, this wouldn't even be an issue. Seems to me if "sometimes men" would stop looking at women as second-class citizens, and realize that women are PEOPLE, none of this would be up for "debate". (Before I get jumped on, not all men, and women do have half the responsibility here, and we're not talking about the inherent differences between men and women, blah, blah, blah.)

I find it rather interesting that you did not address my point of "emotional" versus "logical". Interesting, but not really surprising, as your entire stance is based not on logic, but on emotion. And "guilt" is one of the most powerful emotions.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 01, 2000.

Arggggh. Off (I hope). Sorry.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 01, 2000.

Good morning

"Would you frame your position on the morality of sending folks off to war?" I guess we need to look at the reasons we as humans go to war a little closer.

Some Examples:

WWI & II were 'righteous' wars in my opinion and thus justifiable. While the War in Kosovo (sp?) is/was highly questionable.

"{ Aren't you painting yourself into a box by using both 'murder' & 'kill' in your handle?}" How so?

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

I just joined in so forgive me if someone has given this point of view, but... If abortion kills babies, then every other form of birth control kills babies, including abstaining from sex. Do you have sex with your husband every time he wants it? The pope's point of view, you're destroying a possible conception and therefore a possible birth.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 01, 2000.

I'll get to that {if I can, maybe...}

I'd really appreciate it if you'd answer Malcolm's questions about specifically where you see the beginning of a new life. {'Viewer', you're 'twinkle' still brings a smile to my face!}.

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

>> Oh and one more thing, DON'T SHOVE *YOUR* ANTI RELIGIOUS BELIEFS DOWN *MY* THROAT! <<

This is a bit hard to understand, Stop The Murder. You start a thread for discussing abortion. You insist on framing the debate within your religious point of view. And then you are offended when someone expresses a contrary view, not because it is contrary, not because it is rudely phrased, but because they are shoving it down your throat?

Stop, just look and and listen. You opened your mouth. You tilted your head back. You started peeping. This, in my view, comes fairly under the heading of "asking for it".

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), May 01, 2000.

"...force your versions of morality and religion upon others."

'Force' is a little strong. I put forth my Christian faith/beliefs forward as an opposing view.

"Not all on this board align themselves with the christian viewpoint." I'm aware of that. Point?

"You are using the bible as your basis in "fact", but not everyone believes the bible to BE "fact"." This is true.

"It doesn't mean they're wrong,..." From my point of view and according to the Bible's teachings, everyone was given 'free will' as to whether to accept the teachings of the Bible as true 'factual'. My Christian beliefs are the Bible is the undeniable word of God.

"...and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean they are bad people." Nope. Not at all. Just not people going to heaven according to Christian belief.

"You, OTOH, are flat-out stating that those who disagree with you are immoral;..." First, let me say the Bible like a good doctor is clear on a course of action. The Bible doesn't say anywhere anything like "if it feels good, do it". It describes what right and wrong is and the consequences of doing both. This is part of what the Christian faith is.

"...if you had truly found "peace" through "God", you wouldn't have this need to convert others to your way of thinking." I am speaking from my point of view. Once again, from my Christian perspective: Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"Re: "...the untold truth's about abortion": What "untold truths"? The only "untold truths" that I see are those on the "pro-life" side of this issue." One of the untold truths is having an abortion can jepodize your ability to have ANY other children in the future.

"At the risk of this sounding like "male-bashing" (it isn't),..." Nothing to argue with here. One point though. Don't ya think that maybe women need to be more selective as to which men they date/marry?

"I find it rather interesting that you did not address my point of "emotional" versus "logical". " You mean this one? "Do you ever approach this issue logically instead of emotionally?" I'm sorry, I took it as a rhetorical comment. Could you please further elaborate for me?

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

flora

"I'd really appreciate it if you'd answer Malcolm's questions..."

I thought I did that on the Saturday thread.

[snip]

These fertilized embryos according to Judeo-Christian belief, are the start of life.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Brian

"And then you are offended when someone expresses a contrary view,..." Gilda didn't just disagree with my with religious views, she wants me to stop talking about them here. That is the difference.

Here is her specific comment - "If you enjoy it fine, but you needn't preach to the adults here."

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Stop:

"Over all, my take is T.F. Barans is splitting 'hairs' over specific meanings. I can also argue by asking where does the Bible say specifically abortion on demand is allowed?"

Forgive me if I seem too persistent, but you've used one line from the Bible, specifically, "Thou shalt not kill", and used it to backup your claim that abortion is murder. Barans presents MANY scriptures wherein both murder and abortion were mentioned, but found absolutely NOTHING in the Bible to equate the two, nor even equate killing to murder.

Regarding where does it mention that it's ALLOWED, where does it mention that driving a car is allowed? People are killed every day in automobile accidents. Barans presented ample samples from scripture to indicate that a first breath was required before a being could be considered alive.

Thou shalt not kill. Do you eat meat? Do you eat fish? Do you eat poultry? Did you ever kill a living thing? Without looking beyond "Thou shalt not kill" for definitions of living things [one certainly can't be held accountable for killing something that isn't considered alive] and looking further for qualifiers on what living things presumably CAN be killed, you're interpreting ONE line from a big book and stating with absolute certainty that your view is the only one acceptable to Christians.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

Maria

"If abortion kills babies, then every other form of birth control kills babies, including abstaining from sex." I musta missed something here.

"Do you have sex with your husband every time he wants it?"

Sigh...

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

"These fertilized embryos according to Judeo-Christian belief, are the start of life."

Could you point to the scripture that states this, Stop? If you can, I'll leave this discussion to Christians only.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

If I didn't know better (and I'm not sure I do), I'd say you are being deliberately disingenuous and obtuse. I very clearly laid out the "logical versus emotional" points, which were very clearly NOT "rhetorical". Choose to answer them or not; that is your decision.

You said: "One of the untold truths is having an abortion can jepodize your ability to have ANY other children in the future." This is most definitely NOT an "untold truth", at least as far as Planned Parenthood is concerned. This is presented as a REMOTE POSSIBILITY (because that's what it is in this day and age -- A REMOTE POSSIBILITY) to everyone who asks for an explanation of their choices. Oh and just so you have all the "facts": FACT is that a proportionate number of women WHO GO THROUGH WITH A PREGNANCY will experience the same after-effect. But I'll bet I won't find that little tidbit in any of your literature.

And you can't possibly have meant this one: "Don't ya think that maybe women need to be more selective as to which men they date/marry?" You say it takes two, but you are basically putting the responsibility on WOMEN. You can't have it both ways. You simply proved the point I was trying to make, though I doubt you even realize it.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita

STM "I can also argue by asking where does the Bible say specifically abortion on demand is allowed?"

Anita "Regarding where does it mention that it's ALLOWED, where does it mention that driving a car is allowed?"

Agreed.

However, I fail to see how Exodus 20:13: "Thou shalt not kill." or any other verses quoted have been rebutted by T.F. Barans at any point.

" Thou shalt not kill. Do you eat meat? Do you eat fish? Do you eat poultry? Did you ever kill a living thing? Without looking beyond "Thou shalt not kill" for definitions of living things [one certainly can't be held accountable for killing something that isn't considered alive] and looking further for qualifiers on what living things presumably CAN be killed, you're interpreting ONE line from a big book and stating with absolute certainty that your view is the only one acceptable to Christians."

1 Timothy 4:3-5 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

"...though I doubt you even realize it."

No excuse for a man to leave a woman 'high and dry'. I detest any that have done this. I am sorry if I did a poor job of presenting that POV.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita

"Could you point to the scripture that states this, Stop?"

Gee, I think Jeremiah 1:5 does a pretty good job myself. Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Stop:

"Look at the wording of this scripture, "Before I formed you in the womb...." It is talking about before birth, before viability .... BEFORE CONCEPTION! Is that referring to sperms and eggs? It has no relevance to abortion whatsoever; but if it shows reverence to POTENTIAL life, it actually applies as much to sperms and eggs as to embryos, since it is before conception. And even if it were a reference to embryonic life (it isn't), no one denies the existence of embryonic life with the potential to become a human being -- and, once again, it would have been a perfect opportunity to condemn abortion, but.... In context, Jeremiah writes in chapter one specifically about his own calling as a prophet -- that it was known by god before he was born or even conceived. He was appointed, chosen, selected, ordained - whatever. He is talking about the fact that God knew of his calling long before he existed as a real or potential human. Prior to Roe v. Wade, most Bible scholars interpreted this as a reference to God's foreknowledge of the future, and not until recently did the scripture ever enter into the abortion debates. And this reference to God's foreknowledge of the future also suggest that He should have been able to foresee the modern controversy about abortion."

Do you have any that were not already addressed in detail in the link I provided?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;..." When could the baby be formed if not at fertilization?

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

>> Here is her specific comment - "If you enjoy it fine, but you needn't preach to the adults here." <<

If this fairly mild and innocuous statement gets your goat, sell the goat.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), May 01, 2000.

"If this fairly mild and innocuous statement gets your goat, sell the goat."

gilda has stated on many occasions her displeasure with Christians and their, shall we say posting ability to this board. She has stated the Christians should go to something like alt.christian to state our views there and NOT here.

The quote you mention is just the latest incident.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Stop, sigh, you missed the point alright. If you prevent God from forming life, then it's equivalent to murder. Birth control is a form of murder. I asked a simple question, is that what you believe?

Also, "Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;..." When could the baby be formed if not at fertilization?" Yes, and "BEFORE" means before conception.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 01, 2000.

Maria

"Stop, sigh, you missed the point alright. If you prevent God from forming life, then it's equivalent to murder."

I'd rather deal with one debate at a time here. The topic is abortion.

"Yes, and "BEFORE" means before conception." The statement refers to knowing before not conceived before.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Stop:

The keyword is BEFORE . BEFORE anything gets formed in the womb, there is a live sperm and a live egg who haven't "met" yet. This line from scripture gives more credence to Maria's argument than your own. From what I've seen, the Bible pretty specifically refers to life starting after the first breath.

Regarding your responses to Gilda, Stop, you realize [I hope] that most folks on this forum now know your OTHER handle. There just aren't so many male Christian Fundamentalists on this forum who ALSO tangled with Gilda on the old forum and continue to express their displeasure with her conflicting views today.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

"The keyword is BEFORE." Exactly

"...Gilda on the old forum..."

Never posted to Gilda on the old forum. I have posted to the old forum though. Nothing religious in nature though.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Hey, mr. mrs. ms. miss, stop, I have as much right to participate on this thread as you do. Just because you want to keep the tirade going, don't tell me to leave. I am interested in this subject and have been for years, and I've supported Planned Parenthood for years, and I also support and aid The Baby Think It Over programs in local High School. So what are you doing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies besides run your mouth.

And I will remind you that you're the one who doesn't like what I say, or how I say it. I'm quite familiar with your type that talks gospel and murder in the same sentence. So if you don't like my conversation, just click on past. If you don't like that--BITE ME!!

If you don't believe in abortions--don't have one.

You are an absolute walking encyclopeia of misinformation. But when you use the Bible as your reference, you've lost me as far as logic is concerned. And WND is such as rag, and so filled with bias, that it is considered a joke by journalists.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 01, 2000.

"Hey, mr. mrs. ms. miss, stop, I have as much right to participate on this thread as you do."

Now you're gettin' the idea.

"If you don't like that--BITE ME!!"

Sticks and stones...

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

So Miss Stop, what's the difference of me posting anit-Christian stuff and you posting Christian stuff. You just recently told me to stay off the abortion thread--remember?? You've posted a lot more Bible thumping conversations on here than I have anti-Bible discussions. I don't run my life according to some ancient document that has little relevance in my life.

There is a passage in the Bible about dashing out the brains of a baby or kid or something. I can't find it right now, but I'm sure some of you can.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 01, 2000.

"The statement refers to knowing before not conceived before."

You're getting mixed up here, Stop. Conception [in the pregnancy sense] doesn't occur BEFORE the womb gets involved. I would certainly agree that the statement refers to KNOWING before conception, which throws this one out as an anti-abortion argument from scripture.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

gilda

"You just recently told me to stay off the abortion thread--remember??"

My exact quote, since you are still having trouble reading the threads and/or remembering what people say.

Before 'clicking' on a thread 1) check who the poster is 2) the subject being discussed 3) choose whether you want to join in. If that doesn't work, click on the 'back button' or 4)STOP WHINING and Deal with it!

Let me know if you get disoriented and confussed again. I'll be more than happy to help.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita

"Conception [in the pregnancy sense] doesn't occur BEFORE the womb gets involved."

Yes, I agree.

"I would certainly agree that the statement refers to KNOWING before conception, which throws this one out as an anti-abortion argument from scripture."

You've lost me completely.

The passage once more Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I won't be able to respond any more today. Maybe I'll see the point you're trying to make better tomorrow. If ya wanna try again from a little different angle, that may help me understand what you're trying to say better.

Thanks!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 01, 2000.

"You've lost me completely."

Actually, Stop, I never knew WHERE you were. Maria and I have both tried to explain that THIS segment of scripture describes more the living cells BEFORE conception than the living cells AFTER conception....ergo the sperm and the egg BEFORE they unite.

If this is used as your reference from the Bible which states where life begins, it clearly begins as an isolated egg and sperm, in which case there is no need for the two to combine to form a NEW life, in which case, we are guilty of murder each time we fail to unite an egg and sperm, in which case we should have been engaging in sex at least once/month [for a female] since time of menstruation, and at least once/minute [for a male], since our bodies are capable of producing life before conception at these rates. Maria explained this.

Personally, I don't think you want to use this scripture to defend your stance, but it's up to you.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

"ALL women have a 'choice' to control their bodies. That is unless you are now claiming that 'all' women that have sex have been raped."

This vindictive, self-righteous attitude stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished. Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in child abuse. Anti-abortionists trivialize motherhood and childbirth by dismissing pregnancy as a mere inconvenience. They ignore or belittle the needs of the woman and the conflict she endures in making her decision. Guilt is inflicted when compassion is needed.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 01, 2000.

Stop, don't worry about me being disoriented and "confussed," you're the one with the problem.

1) I know who the poster is, even though the handle/alias is new. 2) I know the subject, and how you're trying to assuage your own conscience, about your own situation by badgering everyone on this forum. You, in your arrogant righteousness, have also decided how everyone *should* feel about the topic of abortion. 3) I chose to join in, whether you like it or not. 4) And bud, you're the one moaning and praying and hand-wringing, in dealing with your past problem, so STOP WHINING and Deal with it, or better yet, Get Over it.

Let me know if you can't get over your obsession and guilt, and I'll be more than happy to help.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita

"Maria and I have both tried..." I don't see how this verse can be interpreted the way you are using it. I see it as sperm and egg coming together to form new life.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Stop:

You don't see the interpretation in the same way because you leave the BEFORE out of your bolded quote.

Let's move on, however.

"Historical Religious Views Early Hebrew Views Talmud: The following are exact quotes from p. 238 of the Steinsaltz Edition of the Talmud, translated by Rabbi Israel V. Berman, 1989 edition (published by Random House):

"A fetus is [considered as] the thigh of its mother, i.e., it is like a limb of the mother, and is not a separate entity."

"A human fetus [is] less than a fully undependent human being."

"A fetus cannot inherit property until it is born."

The 12th century Jewish rabbi Maimonides taught that these Talmudic passages in conjunction Exodus 21:22, along with the "first breath" concept (as in Adam) [Genesis 2:7] permitted abortion until the baby's head had emerged. (His work, "The Guide of the Perplexed," completed in 1190, blended Jewish thought with the teachings of Aristotle, and was used by St. Thomas Aquinas as a seminal source.)

Breath of Life (Gen 2:7) applies more broadly than just to Adam: [Gen 1:30.27] And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.

[Gen 2:7] then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Here ensoulment clearly is defined in the Bible as occurring AFTER the taking of "first breath." And please note that the reference equating "ensoulment" and "breath of life" can be found not only in this reference to the special creation of Adam, but throughout both Old and New Testaments, applying to all the rest of us.

Early Non-Biblical Prohibitions against Abortion There are, however, a number on NON-BIBLICAL references to opposing abortion.

Sibylline Oracles 2, pg. 339

Didache, Chapter 2 verse 3

Letter to Barnabus from the Codex Sinaiticus from unknown author

Letter to Diognetus [Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus dates to around 130 A.D. -- citation Chapter 5:6]

While this clearly shows that some early Christians did oppose abortion, TWO key points are very clear here:

1) Those in Biblical times DID KNOW about abortion, so the Bible's silence on abortion cannot be excused on the basis that they didn't know about it (although since God supposedly breathed the inspiration for the Bible and He DID know everything, even that should have been no excuse)

2) The passages that opposed abortion were NOT INCLUDED in the Bible. While several of them were considered for inclusion in the Canon, not one of these opportunities to include a clear statement of Biblical opposition to abortion was accepted. Any effort to have the Bible unambiguously oppose abortion WAS REJECTED!

3) Nothing that actually made it into the Bible opposes abortion.

The simple fact is that the Bible is completely silent about abortion. It neither encourages/promotes nor discourages/opposes abortion in any way. It is completely neutral, therefore leaving that up to each individual person to make their own personal CHOICE.

But believe it or not, I have had people respond by asking, "Well, then, where in the Bible does it say that abortion is PERMITTED?"

Such a comment somehow suggests that EVERYTHING is FORBIDDEN unless God specifically OK's it. Where in the Bible does it say it's OK to use a computer, drive a motorized vehicle, fly in the air, inoculate against disease (and thus kill billions of God's creations - the viruses and bacteria)? [I am not comparing zygotes to viruses, merely showing how silly it is to make such a ridiculous assertion.] Oh, these things weren't invented yet? You don't think that God (who knew Jeremiah before the foundation of the world) could foresee the future day? They still aren't authorized. What about things that WERE known? Where in the Bible does it say it's OK to climb a tree? Kill a shrimp/pig/rabbit for dinner (I can show you where it is FORBIDDEN)?

Abortion WAS known and practiced in Bible times. And there are lots of other things that WERE within the scope of technology for Bible times, but not authorized by the Bible: is surfing allowed by the Bible? Are competitive team sports authorized in scripture? Picnics? Climbing a tree? Going to the zoo?

The Bible is SILENT about abortion. Neutral. The Bible neither supports, encourages, condemns nor discourages the practice. It is left to individual discretion ... or CHOICE. As to whether abortion should be LEGAL (the topic of this folder) I take a purely neutral, middle-of-the-road view: the far left (Chinese Communists) want forced abortion mandated by law; the far right (Christian Conservatives) want forced pregnancy mandated by law; the middle ground (Moderate Middle) leaves it up to each individual ... JUST LIKE THE BIBLE."

How does one claim that life began in the womb when we have these references to "breath of life" in the Bible and references to state in the womb in the Talmud?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 02, 2000.

Stop, you can't see very much. For one who knows what the book says, you can't understand. You said that you only deal with one debate here. Abortion is the topic. Yet the question remains, when does life begin? As I stated the pope believes that it goes back to the egg and sperm. So any form of birth control is murder. It's all the same topic sweetheart and you can't see beyond your little world. Sigh.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 02, 2000.

Ape

STM: "ALL women have a 'choice' to control their bodies. That is unless you are now claiming that 'all' women that have sex have been raped."

APE: "...stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished."

Not at all. It means fulfilling the responsibility you took on as a participant in the sex act. God created sex for our enjoyment.

"Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex." Motherhood is a gift from God. Now if you would rather not receive this gift, refrain from the activity that makes this gift possible.

"Anti-abortionists trivialize motherhood and childbirth by dismissing pregnancy as a mere inconvenience."

Funny, Pro-Life people think the same way about the Pro-Death crowd. You can't trivialize life anymore than treating it as if it were some foreign object within you, like a splinter, in need of removal so it can be discarded.

"They ignore or belittle the needs of the woman and the conflict she endures in making her decision." No, no not at all. Taking the life of your baby is not an easy 'choice' to make.

"Guilt is inflicted when compassion is needed." Why do you think the decision can be so hard? Why do you think guilt is possible? The reasons should be obvious. Deep within our beings are our 'moral compasses'. Some of us have manually turned them off long ago, but most still have them intact. Those 'moral compasses' are telling us when 'things' are not quite right. When we ignore our 'moral compasses' and continue onward we experience guilt. Guilt can not be transmitted like a viral infection from person to person. It is something we all are/were capable of experiencing if we obey our inner moral values that are/were within us. Continuing to ignore these 'moral compasses' creates a hardening of our 'souls' if you will. Nothing much from that point on, allows us to feel guilty about most anything.

Compassion is reserved for those who are repentant.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

gilda

"...decided how everyone *should* feel about the topic of abortion."

And so have you. Your point?

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

maria

"Yet the question remains, when does life begin?" When the sperm and egg join. The ova by itself cannot make human life. The sperm by itself cannot make human life.

"As I stated the pope believes..."

I have opinions as well. What God says is all that matters.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Anita

"You don't see the interpretation in the same way because you leave the BEFORE out of your bolded quote."

The before you refer to means we have an all knowing, all seeing God. He knows everything past present and future. That BEFORE means he knew everything about YOU before you were created. He knows everything that has and will happen to you in your lifetime.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

I will be back latter today (I hope). ....gotta pay the bills.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Stop, so the pope doesn't have a clue what God has said, only you do, OK.

You wrote: That BEFORE means he knew everything about YOU before you were created.

Exactly the point. And what if we prevented your birth through birth control? Are we guilty of murder?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 02, 2000.

Stop:

I have some things to do today as well. However, I must say you've made some progress, as exhibited here: "Funny, Pro-Life people think the same way about the Pro-Death crowd." This is the first time I've seen you separate Pro-Choice from Pro-Death.

I'll be anxious to see your responses to the scriptures and Talmud writings.

Maria: AFAIK, Christian Fundamentalists don't even honor Roman Catholics as Christians, let alone honor the pope's words as being from God. Of course, since Stop stated that life begins at conception [per Judaic-Christian beliefs], I would think he'd be familiar with the Talmud AND the Canon.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 02, 2000.

Maria:

It gets worse. If life is defined by POTENTIAL FOR LIFE , I could be guilty of murder by simply getting my hair cut. Each hair is capable of being cloned into a breathing human being.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 02, 2000.

I think most of us would be against killing a baby a few minutes after birth.

Most of us would be against killing the infant when it is out of the womb, but still attached to the umbilical cord and not yet breathing-- seconds after birth.

A majority would probably be opposed to killing a nine-month-old fetus in the womb, unless doing so would be necessary to save the life of the mother.

Not many people think sperm cells, alone, or egg cells, alone, are separate living beings. They have the potential to be living, though.

Somewhere in between birth and ovulation, everyone disagrees on what comprises a human life. That is the debate. If a human life is killed, then it is tantamout to murder or at least defensive manslaughter.

Before the abortion debate raged, there existed such a defining boundary between living and unliving. That was known as "quickening," which happened a few weeks into the second trimester. This is when the fetus begins to move and kick around on his own accord. The correlates with the formation of neural connections between the cerebral cortex and the midbrain. This is when the catholic church originally defined the start of human life prior to its recent contention that life begins at conception.

I personally think it's barbaric to perform abortions after this point.

I think that we need to us the same criteria for life beginning as life ending. We say that life ENDS when the heart and brain stop funtioning. When does it start? A heartbeat hegins by two months. Primitive brain funtion is going on by the end of the first trimester. This activity culminates in consciousness at quickening, as I said earlier.

I think lots of "abortion on demand" happens well after the beginning of heart and brain function. This must stop. One does not need to invoke religious arguments to say that.

From my own religious perspective, I personally think that a human life begins at implantation. Conception rarely makes it to the end of the first trimester, perhaps only in about 20% of the time. After implantation, conception is said to be a successs. Prior to that, we only have a spehere of a few dozen cells--most of which do not even comrpise the lineage from which human tissues arise (most go to making an amniotic sack). A pre-implantation embryo is no more a human being than a freckle.

If suddenly awoke and found yourself hooked up to a patient who depended on you for breathing and circulation for nine months, you may be pretty shocked. If you were told that he had a 20% chance of surviving after nine months, i'd say that you were a noble person for tending him during that time. But I could not in good conscience FORCE you to remain hooked up to him.

If chances were much higher, say, in a post-implantation situation (~80-90%), I'd argue that you owe that person a chance to live.

Anyway, that's what I think. So sue me. I realize that this is a terribly emotional issue, so I'm certain I offended people on both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, most debates of this nature are extremely polarized between two intractable camps. In thirty years, they haven't budged a bit. Ins't compromise better than nothing?

-- coprolith (jacothecat@yahoo.com), May 02, 2000.

Coprolith, thanks for your point of view. I think we agree on most of your statements. And this debate hasn't moved forward in the last thirty years and it probably never will. However, give me the right to my own beliefs and stop killing doctors who are providing legal services to women. (last comment directed toward Stop)

Anita, thanks for the explanation on Roman Catholics. I never really paid that much attention to the different religions. However I find it interesting that almost all wars were fought in the name of religion, a true oxymoron. Well, you could take the definition of life much further. We were all created out of the universe, so we are a part of the "oneness", as in the Aspen trees "born" from the same root system. So if we kill any part of that oneness, we are guilty of murder. So, I guess I won't be cutting anything anymore, unless it's cut for consumption. But that's another story :)

I need to get to work!

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 02, 2000.

Why do you think the decision can be so hard? Why do you think guilt is possible? The reasons should be obvious. Deep within our beings are our 'moral compasses'. Some of us have manually turned them off long ago, but most still have them intact. Those 'moral compasses' are telling us when 'things' are not quite right. When we ignore our 'moral compasses' and continue onward we experience guilt. Guilt can not be transmitted like a viral infection from person to person. It is something we all are/were capable of experiencing if we obey our inner moral values that are/were within us. Continuing to ignore these 'moral compasses' creates a hardening of our 'souls' if you will. Nothing much from that point on, allows us to feel guilty about most anything.
Compassion is reserved for those who are repentant

I wish my moral compass would point in the direction of the nearest bathroom, cause I think I'm gonna puke!

-- Stop Stop Stop Stop Stop (already@youselfrightous.jerk), May 02, 2000.

Maria

"Stop, so the pope doesn't have a clue what God has said, only you do, OK."

Not at all what I said.

Maria: "As I stated the pope believes..."

STM: I have opinions as well. What God says is all that matters.

"And what if we prevented your birth through birth control?" Are we guilty of murder?" What method do you refer to. Keep Abortion Legal (not@all.sorry)'s method of birth control is abortion. That would be murder according to God's law.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Maria

"However, give me the right to my own beliefs and stop killing doctors who are providing legal services to women. (last comment directed toward Stop)."

flora

"Wasn't there an 'abortion doctor' who was killed by a 'pro life-er' awhile back?

I'd sincerely be thankful if you'd jot down your judgement on that incident."

No excuse what so ever for taking any doctors life. I in no way promote that kind of behavior.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Stop, my point is this, I have NOT decided how anyyone should feel about the topic of abortion.

Every woman *SHOULD* have the right to decide for herself what she wants to do about an unwanted pregnancy. Abortion should not be the business of the State, the Chruch nor any other institution that feels they should meddle in this very private matter.

If the woman is unwed and wants to keep the child, that is her decision. She should do what feels right to her, and to her alone. However, the father should share the responsibility for the child, even if they choose not to marry.

If the woman, wed or unwed, wants an abortion, for whatever reason, that too is her decision. Women do not make frivolous decisions concerning this very important issue. Whatever her reason, it is important and valid to her. Who are you, or I, to say she should, or should not have this baby. IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. Calling abortion "murder" is simply a subjective opinion on your part and the part of the anti-abortion faction. As long as it is a part of her body, and dependent on her body, then she should be allowed to call the shots.

For those who are so fond of bashing Planned Parenthood, this is what they do. They uphold a woman, or girl's choice. They NEVER say, "You *should* have an abortion." Nor do they say, "You *should* not have an abortion." They help her through the process of making a decision that she can live with comfortably. I repeat. I would never try to influence anyone about this most personal choice, and you shouldn't either.

I think late term abortions should only be done to save the mother's life, or her health, or if the child is so physically or mentally flawed, that it's life would be practically NO life at all.

I'm not writing any more on this topic. You are only interested in portraying abortion as a criminal act, proselytizing your message, with plenty of Bible verses thrown in, and laying guilt on others.

And for fanatical anti-abortion people to kill Doctors in order to save an unwanted fetus, seems to me to be the height of the absurd, and a heinous criminal act.

Stop, I do not care for your type of self-righteousness, that leads you to believe you have a right to sit in judgement on others. Maybe you should walk in their shoes, before you make their decisions for them.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 02, 2000.

Anita

"A fetus is [considered as] the thigh of its mother, i.e., it is like a limb of the mother, and is not a separate entity."

"A human fetus [is] less than a fully undependent human being."

"A fetus cannot inherit property until it is born."

I have no problem with any of this.

The 12th century Jewish rabbi Maimonides taught that these Talmudic passages in conjunction Exodus 21:22, along with the "first breath" concept (as in Adam) [Genesis 2:7] permitted abortion until the baby's head had emerged.

Lets say I conduct research on a topic. Now I could collect data on, lets say for the sake of arguement: contributing causes to premature death in humans using proven acceptable methods. After all the data is collected I find one common element amonst all study cases. I find all study cases have eaten carrots. I could write a book related to my study with conclusions claiming that the cause of premature death in humans is eating carrots. As you can tell the methods for collecting the data were 'sound' but a wrong conclusion drawn from it. No different than your 12th century Jewish rabbi I'm afraid.

"...person to make their own personal CHOICE. We are starting to re-cover the same arguements that have already been addressed. I argue with Jeremiah 1:5 & Exodus 20:13.

The simple fact is that the Bible is completely silent about abortion. I continue to argue with Jeremiah 1:5 & Exodus 20:13.

The Bible is SILENT about abortion. Neutral. Exodus 20:1313 'Thou shalt not kill' covers that very well for me.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

gilda "I have NOT decided how anyyone should feel about the topic of abortion." Sure you have. You've decided everyone has a right to an abortion.

"...you have a right to sit in judgement on others." I said it before, I'll say it again. I speak first and foremost from a Christian P.O.V.. The Bible describes a clear path. I only quote what the path is. *I*, am not the judge. God is and will be.

"...leads you to believe you have a right to sit in judgement on others." Once again, I believe the Bible and what it teaches. I am not judgeing that which God has already stated is wrong.

Thank you very much for treating me so civil in your most recent post. I do think we can agree to disagree without name calling or other antagonisms.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 02, 2000.

Anita, gilda,

As much as I'd be honored to take credit for STM's position, he is not me. I post only with my real name, and I've just now read this thread for the first time. But, STM, we'd make a good team.

Elbow

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), May 02, 2000.

LBO Grise

But, STM, we'd make a good team. I'm certain there will be other battles to be fought.

Maybe then?

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 03, 2000.

Stop:

This is my last contribution on this topic. You've made choices even about WHICH scriptures you choose to use to defend your position, and choices about those you wish to ignore.

Regarding abortion being a difficult choice, I'll go back down memory lane to when my first child was conceived. I'd been actively "trying" to get pregnant for 3 years. I had friends in the same situation and heard stories that I should stand on my head after intercourse, or "do it" in front of an air-conditioner. My doctor decided to "blow my tubes". I really don't remember much about that procedure, but I think something was forced through the fallopian tubes. When the procedure was complete, I said, "Was there an obstruction?" The doctor said, "Well, if there was before, there isn't now." I think he also prescribed folic acid as a supplement.

Several months later I was pregnant. I was THRILLED. I went for the pre-natal care, which included a test for rubella sometime in perhaps the third month. The rubella titre revealed that not only was I exposed to rubella, but I had been nastily infected by it. The antibodies reflected that the fetus within WOULD suffer from horrible birth defects. I was despondent. The lab said that it COULD be a fluke, but that they'd run out of titre testing kits and I'd have to wait several weeks for a repeat of the test. WAIT? I was moving into the second trimester. I couldn't wait! I had my company doctor perform a second test. The results were fine, but my doctor said they couldn't be compared to the first titre because the testing methods were different. I HAD to wait.

You said that folks would know which path to choose based on a moral compass. Which way does that moral compass point? Would it be more moral to bear a severely deformed child or abort it and bear a normal child? This was my first, so I had to decide in those 3 weeks of waiting what I wanted to do. If my first was severely deformed, it would certainly be my LAST. Had it NOT been my first, what would this birth do to the rest of my family? Is it fair to ask other children to wait while we attend to the needs of the deformed child for the short time they'll be on earth?

It turned out that the test WAS a fluke, and I went on to birth THAT child as well as two other healthy children. I will never forget the anguish of that time. YOU want to legislate decisions that can only be made by the family involved. I think that [even for Christians] there's enough evidence in the bible to suggest that God left this decision to the family.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 03, 2000.

Anita

Thanks for your 'testimony'.

It turned out that the test WAS a fluke, and I went on to birth THAT child as well as two other healthy children.

Would you care to state how you learned the test was a fluke? I'd be interested in hearing about it.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 03, 2000.

Stop:

I waited the 3 weeks and had the test repeated. The repeat test showed NO rubella at all. This, combined with the test performed by my company doctor was enough to satisfy everyone.... FINALLY .

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 03, 2000.

Anita

Thank you for sharing your story with me.

To answer a rhethorical question you asked earlier, which was:

You said that folks would know which path to choose based on a moral compass. Which way does that moral compass point? Would it be more moral to bear a severely deformed child or abort it and bear a normal child?

Happily your 'moral compass' did 'kick in' and you waited for the test results. I know you are glad with your decision to wait. Thankfully, you were not forced to make a hard decision in regards to having a child with severe birth defects.

I think that [even for Christians] there's enough evidence in the bible to suggest that God left this decision to the family.

Well, I think you know where I stand on that. (Grin)

I appreciated the chance for a debate with you on a subject near and dear to my heart. Thank you again for 'sharing' your story. All the best to you and your family.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), May 03, 2000.

One last note, Stop:

My husband and I had decided that if the second test showed the same results, we WOULD abort. It's GREAT that we didn't have to, but we were grateful the option was available.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 03, 2000.