link

And try to keep your dinner down.

-- x (x@x.x), April 29, 2000

Answers

Is there anyone else who thinks Invar is disturbed?

-- (***@***.*), April 29, 2000.

**@**,

Invar's posts, as spittle-coated as they may be, are not half as disturbed as this one from Red Dawn:

The Black culture should be thankful for slavery. Without it, what would they have accomplished on their own? If you look at the deepest reaches of Africa where blacks have no influence from other cultures, what do you see? The most ingenious invention is the mud hut.

With slavery came education, a set of laws, knowledge of right from wrong, and the concept that you can't trade your daughter for a few pigs.

Yes, slavery was wrong in the human sense, but without it, the blacks would never have had the opportunity to come to this country, receive education, and elevate themselves to a higher standard of living then they could have ever imagined had they been left in Africa.

Actually they should be paying us back.

Is this person serious??

-- (holy smokes@batman.abc), April 29, 2000.

off

-- (off@damn.spot), April 29, 2000.

Powder says:

Ok, let's take it a step further. I'll agree to pay reparations IF: for every person murdered by a black person, they agree to pay equal reparations to the family of the deceased.

Patrick Mc says:

.....There is no one due a dime in reparations, none of them were ever any more of a slave than they are right now. How much is that, I wonder...

Vern17 says:

Black men do not pay child support...why? I do!!!

Deb Mc says:

Another issue is the point that many of these (black) people are slackers, ending up as great-grandparents by their early 50's and all of them and their descendents on some sort of public assistance.

INVAR says:

Don't be telling the rest of us to help pay for your "compassion". I lost family members in battles that "paid' for these ingrates in the black community.

INVAR also says:

Their freedom and Liberty have been PAID IN BLOOD by my WHITE ancestors. Bunch of evil, selfish, racist and hateful black leaders running this show.

Troke says:

Well, this sure flushed out the racists, yessir, it surely did. You are going to see more of this. There is racism everywhere and this proposal will really point it out. As pointed out earlier, anybody that opposes this is a racist. It is high time that the American people realize what they have done dragging them blacks over here. If we hadn't that, the men be Zulu chiefs, every one of them. And the women would be Zulu princesses, every one of them. No doubt about it. Just ask them.

Red Dawn says: The Black culture should be thankful for slavery. Without it, what would they have accomplished on their own?

-- x (x@x.x), April 29, 2000.

The original article said,

"Ebony Executive Editor Lerone Bennett ...

"So reparations are due me," she said. "I want 40 acres and a Lexus. Keep the mule.""

Couldn't she have at least picked an American car like a Lincoln or Buick or Cadillac? Why send that many more American dollars overseas? At least by buying American the money would transfer hands *within* the country.

And I think that rather than giving 40 acres of desert or Alaskan ice to each person they should get 40 acres of GOOD real estate like downtown Manhatten or L.A. beachfront. The current owners can be compensated for their losses by the government as well. If you're going to do it, do it right.

I do wonder though what criteria will be used to get in on the free stuff, though, as *everyone* who thinks they have a claim will apply. I suppose even people who went back to Africa and their descendents would be able to qualify, as they were still subject to the same injustices in this country. And if no records were kept, how do you say someone was NOT here? Mandatory DNA testing?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 29, 2000.

x,

Get the story straight, and quit with the propaganda. If you can't copy my entire post, then shut the hell up. I used to be a liberal Democrat, until I realized what quite a few minorities were *really* thinking about "equality". My post was entirely from personal experiences, so there isn't hatred here, just the truth as I experienced it.

Samantha,

I personally worked in an State EEO office, with a black majority workforce. I can personally tell you that many of my former co- workers were just as racist as those they are *fighting* against. I personally heard racist remarks against Orientals, Hispanics, Jews and Whites and even (though I'm not one) homosexuals. I even had the agency's Deputy Director, a woman with a Doctorate degree, make a racist comment to me, personally! Many of these who cry out against racism are nothing more than hypocrites.

Some of my co-workers OPENLY admitted that they wanted nothing more to be paid for doing nothing. They want to continue the lifestife that they see portrayed in Africa, but want the white man's pay...

No, I am not a racist, I have quite a few friends that are black, my two best friends are Jewish, have hispanic in-laws, and have dated people from Saudi Arabia. In fact, the color of one's skin shouldn't be inducive to the amount one's pay: hard work = good pay. Unfortunately, from what I've seen of *some* of black culture, the work ethic isn't the same. Life is hard, try getting something for nothing in the REAL world - you CAN'T.

Now, please Samantha, tell me, how are we supposed to pay all of those people without bankrupting the entire U.S.? I don't see an option.

Another issue is the point that many of these people are slackers, ending up as great-grandparents by their early 50's and all of them and their descendents on some sort of public assistance. Many of these people that I saw come into our office thought that this assistance was an "entitlement", not just temporary aid - WRONG.

My advice Samantha is to go out onto the streets for a while, or work for a largely black group of employees and LISTEN. I used to think like you, until I learned what the REAL truth is.

No, I don't agree with INVAR - blacks shouldn't be grateful for slavery. Slavery is an evil, ugly action that has been around mankind for eaons, but didn't start with white men. NO ONE should have to suffer being a slave. Just stop blaming white people for all of the ills that people have suffered. Other races have done that same and still continue to do so...

Like I said, work in a multi-cultural environment, where your race is the minority. Then you will see what the REAL truth is. I found out, and it was eye-opening.

-- Deb Mc (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), April 29, 2000.

Correction:

No, I don't agree with INVAR Should read "No, I don't agree with Red Dawn"

-- Deb Mc (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), April 29, 2000.

Answer me this, x:

Why are those who have never felt the tortures of slavery so unforgiving of those who have never owned slaves?

Hmm?

-- (@ .), April 29, 2000.

If you are reading these words than you are a racist. Thats right..You! Oh, you say that you are not a racist and you have no racial prejudices what so ever and you have never harbored any racial thoughts. Bullshit! Now we have the black community demanding reparations for their days of slavery. 40 acres and a Lexus. Wont a nice Caddy do? Would you settle for a condo in the Bahamas? Im Irish and my ancestors were treated worse than slaves were when they arrived in NYC. Can all of us Micks get a few acres and a ride too? Wait a minute you say, thats not the same! Why is that? Why are the blacks so different than other races and cultures that have been mistreated down through history? I wont answer that question for fear of being labeled a racist and I sure wouldnt want that. After all, we are living in the golden era of Political Correctness and to step outside of that box will show how UN-educated you are.

So for all of you listening in I will offer some words for you to ponder. Pay attention to when these words were created and formally introduced into our English vocabulary:

REALITY Date: 1550

1 : the quality or state of being real 2 a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs (2) : the totality of real things and events b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily - in reality : in actual fact

SPIN Date: 1831

a special point of view, emphasis, or interpretation - spin7less /'spin-l&s/ adjective

RACIST Date: 1936

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination - rac7ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

Ive often disagreed with the postings of Deb M but she is right on the money here. She is a levelheaded professional that gets a day to day look at REALITY. She is refusing to put a SPIN on the facts and will probably be called a RACIST by some.

Time to get REAL folks!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 29, 2000.

Ra,

WUZZZUPPP???? no limericks today....now I KNOW you are serious...*wink

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

Maybe a paid one-way ticket back to Africa is in order. I'll gladly contribute. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton could really live high on the hog over there.

-- SillY Billy (sillybilly@donuts.forall), April 29, 2000.

Yeah right! Give the coons what they want and then the blanket asses will want the whole fucking country back.

-- Manny (No@dip.com), April 29, 2000.

Im sorry Consumer for raving,

Its just that this morning Im waving.

My own Irish flag,

And my .44 Mag,

For some land and a car that Im craving!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 29, 2000.

I didn't read the entire thread. I read the first post by Ynot. It was not racsist. And reparations are truly a stupid idea. You can't visit the sins of the father onto the son. In fact, most of us white-breads are not descended from slave-owners or slave-traders. My ancestors never saw a black person til they shipped steerage to this country.

And what good would reparations due for blacks? Remember that punitive reparations imposed on Germany after WWI were one of the causes of WWII.

Also, let's not get too smug about the quality of people who post here vs those who post on EZ Board. Yes Manny and Silly Boy; you guys are lower than whale shit.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 29, 2000.

Lars:

I was thinking they were lower than snake shit but I'll accept whale shit as an adequate analogy :^)

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 29, 2000.

Are all of you really serious? We have one person drawing the conclusion that all people of color are a certain way because she worked with them and that was her preception. We have others judging all people involved with this issue want 40 acres and a lexus when one person said it. It shows a total lack of critical thinking to take one's personal experience and posit it as speaking for all.

I have not yet formed an opinion on this issue, BUT if none of you are rascist, then all of you need an elementary class in logic.

Please.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 29, 2000.

Future Shock said

"if none of you are racist"

I RESENT that....speak to who you will, but LEAVE ME OUT.

Future, NOT ALL., I shall AWAIT your apology.

----consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

So Future some logic you seek,

From those who are not quite so meek.

Hey I ask you this pal,

Wheres ole Jesse and Al,

To debunk that Black Womens critique!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 29, 2000.

Future,

"Are all of you really serious? We have one person drawing the conclusion that all people of color are a certain way because she worked with them and that was her preception. We have others judging all people involved with this issue want 40 acres and a lexus when one person said it. It shows a total lack of critical thinking to take one's personal experience and posit it as speaking for all."

Please take my advice and go out into the streets and listen. I don't mean to generalize, because there *are* MANY decent people out there. However, I also saw many others that I consider (ed) "slackers" and would use the system any way they could.

I saw single mothers in their mid-twenties having multiple children by different fathers, not married, on welfare and drugs, having the grandmother take care of the children. Infighting was absolutely incredible, and the "normal" lifestyle seemed very disruptive/dysfunctional.

To form your own conclusions, I'd suggest that you go out there and listen, wait some more, and listen, listen, listen. Get to know these people day in and day out - it will take some time, but they will open up and you will know how they really feel, what they *really* think. Study the differences between African culture and that of the current American culture, I think you'll find enough resources at your library. (Just remember to take out books by different authors so as to draw a clearer picture, not just one author's biases.)

In my position it took a while, but the truth finally let itself be known. Not all of the people were like that, say only 1/3 to 1/2 of the office (between 9-15 people) - but their revelations were startling. It was very intimidating working in that office, knowing that some of your co-workers would use race as a "club" against you, given the opportunity.

Sometimes I wonder if some black people hold up African lifestyles as an ideal and that it should be implemented into the workplace and into society. Unfortunately, that lifestyle, in the workplace, isn't compatible with American culture. My experiences with my co-workers showed that (at least in this office) they did remarkably little work, with a lot of "social time", playing computer games, watching CD's, etc... and yet still expected the same amount of pay as others (such as myself) who worked their butts off. My co-workers saw no problem with that line of thinking, and any other viewpoints were considered as racist. Some of my co-workers were absolutely obsessed with imagined racism. To me, implementing African culture into the workplace seems like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Perhaps in a more laid-back society, say Greece, the cultural differences wouldn't be so starkly contrasted...

As for their having African culture in their own life, sure, it's a free country. However, I do take offense at having to support persons who are following a version of a dysfunctional social pattern. Perhaps Traditional African culture isn't like that, but what I saw from the inner city streets, the current "culture" is only a path towards social distruction.

Again, go out into the streets repeatedly and listen, listen, listen. Get to really know the people that you talk with. Sooner or later you'll hear what they really think.

Ra - Thank you.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), April 29, 2000.

Consumer:

You're a bit touchy lately-hope all is well-we have never had a problem with each other-I used the word all because I did not have time to go through and list everybody individually-Jim Cooke understood that-he posted before me, and knew I was not referring to him.

But if you were offended, and that is the important thing, I do apologize(but I do think there is some danger in demanding apologies). I apologize because I believe it is the right thing to do.

Deb:

I take offense to your response, which implies that I am out of touch with minority culture, that somehow I have not listened on the streets, that I need to just look around and I will find that african americans, as a culture, are slackers.

The sad thing is, you really do not know how rascist you are. I can show you thousands of WHITE slackers, willing to live off the system of methadone clinics, unemployment, etc. The overwhelming majority of people receiving any social services in this country are WHITE. Situations come up every day when a WHITE person in a customer service capacity shows that they could care less if I got serviced correctly. I live and work near New York City, and I see PLENTY.

It is still illogical to denigrate an entire culture based on your personal experience. I will more than likely disagree with reperations, but not for the same reasons already expressed.

To say that blacks or hispanics do not want to work as hard as their white counterparts, as a whole, is just wholesale ignorance. And the fact that you go on about african culture is also laughable. If what you say is true then society could not continue in cities where the african-american population is the majority-after all, they would all be looking to do less work, play around more, etc.

Next time, before insinuating that I am not aware of what is going on around me, please think.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 29, 2000.

Ra:

If you have not walked a mile in someone's shoes...

But then I already know that you do not like rump rnagers, butt pirates, and now I am sure you do not like people of color-hey that is your prerogative. But I can assure you, that for everything you judge, you will be a "victim" of the same. When you do spiritual harm to others, judging them by sexual preference and color, you do harm to yourself.

Load your next limerick and fire away-I can handle it :) .

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 29, 2000.

"n fact, most of us white-breads are not descended from slave-owners or slave-traders. My ancestors never saw a black person til they shipped steerage to this country."

And what about the immigrants to this country? Those who immigrated AFTER slavery was abolished? Did our Irish, Italian parents have anything to do with this? Mexicans? Canadians? How about the African immigrant themselves? Should they pay out of their taxes for what happened to those ancestors who were caught in slavery and brought here? Some of those African ancestors were involved in capturing their countrymen in competing tribes to sell to the whites!

I'd like to hear from a black person's view point on this. Anyone?

-- (y@x.x), April 29, 2000.

BTW, I admit I am bigotted. I am bigotted against any human being of any race, creed or religion, with skin of any color, that tries to get a free lunch in society. White, black, yellow, red, green, doesn't matter. I'll speek against whites who take advantage of "minorities", and vice versa.

-- (y@x.x), April 29, 2000.

Future:

My turn to apologize for jumping down your throat. I was posting when I was upset due to another thread.

Again, I am sorry.

---regards, consumer

PS, I choose to remain out of this one, its over my head...LOL

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

Here is a less controversial take on the same meeting from the Sun Time.

href="http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/27slav.html">Chicago Sun- Times

If the link don't work:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/27slav.html

I would like to see more info on the Lexus comment and in the context it was made, if anyone can find it.

-- Steve (sron123@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

Sorry,link: Chicago Sun- Times

-- Steve (sron123@aol.com), April 29, 2000.

FutureShock you said;

To say that blacks or hispanics do not want to work as hard as their white counterparts, as a whole, is just wholesale ignorance. And the fact that you go on about african culture is also laughable. If what you say is true then society could not continue in cities where the african-american population is the majority-after all, they would all be looking to do less work, play around more, etc.

No limerick for this kind of ignorance. Im on record as severely disliking stupidity. You obviously do not leave the house too often- probably just as well. Reality would eat you alive. Thanks for your postI rest my case!

BTW, you might want to show more respect for these minorities you are so fervently championing and CAP their formal titles.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 29, 2000.

I'm disapointed with your replies, Ra. In general I thought of you a lot more critical and unbiased.

Future said, "We have others judging all people involved with this issue want 40 acres and a lexus when one person said it. It shows a total lack of critical thinking to take one's personal experience and posit it as speaking for all."

That seems right on the money to me. An analogy would be to judge all the posters on this forum, or all the posters on EZboard, for the comment of one person, if you happen to disagree with that comment.

Future Shock, I think what we need are statistics from a well regarded source. Gov. or private. Both to compare would be best. Otherwise we could sling mud at each other for eternity with this hot topic involving everyone's ethnicity, and therefore bias.

-- (y@x.x), April 30, 2000.

Ra, Ra, it's time we talk ... You and I, let's take a walk ... Come in here ... with me my dear ... and one up for me we'll chalk.

-- Debra (be@nice.com), April 30, 2000.

Debby dear I liked your link,

Been there before so in a wink.

Im out the door,

You silly bore,

But others might be pissed, ya think?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 30, 2000.

Ra -

Others might be pissed you think? ... Even though you liked my link? ... Your train of thought ... is good for naught ...but to show your attitude does stink!

-- Debra (ingoodspirits@ofcourse.com), April 30, 2000.

DEBRA:

ROFLMAO, sorry Ra, but this was tooo much...

Didnt think I'd EVER get done clicking, thanks deb for the hint about the spacebar.

Damn, I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy...What a Pain in the...

LOL.

----I bet you are in a good mood of course now....course...get it?

LOL

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 30, 2000.

Ra:

I guess I have to agree with you. The only work that is being done in this country is by White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, heterosexual males.

I posted what I did because things that people say lead to conclusions that are absurd. I work in a city where people are searched because they are black, are killed because they are black, and I will, ALWAYS speak out against rascism of any kind, mild or severe.

You did not attack my statement, or show any error in my logic; you just hurled a stone by saying I was ignorant and did not get out much. This does not further the debate-it merely stifles it. I do not debate with anyone to change their mind; I debate so that all who read can have a different point of view to consider within themself.

I am saying that it would be more useful if you would show the world, posters and lurkers alike, exactly how I am ignorant, and exactly what I said that is not true.

Have a great Sunday.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 30, 2000.

FutureShock

Ill let each individual decide how they stand regarding your stated views. Ive already gone on record as perceiving your worldview to be incredibly innocent. That is my own personal opinion and may or may not be shared by others. You obviously have an equally flattering opinion of my viewpoints and I respect that greatly. How can someone get real upset with comments made on an Internet forum by people that youll more than likely never meet? Ive already admitted to being somewhat of a non-lover of less than productive elements of our minority sectors. Hell, the way things are headed I just might live long enough to be a minority myself.

It would surprise you to know that I am the second-in-command at the Corporation where I work AND the only White Anglo-Saxon American in the entire company. Im the same person at work as I am here, only my viewpoints are expressed in person with no hesitations or regrets. My opinions and guidance are sought after and respected for two basic reasons: I am an intelligent fact-driven person that can be depended on to tell the real truth. Not everyone agrees with my views but they respect me just the same. I give them all of the respect I can muster and the payback is one of lifes treasures.

When you reach the point where you feel comfortable in telling it like it is, rather than telling it like you think it should be, your inner confidence will take on a new glow. In the meantime I will continue to look forward to your posts and, as in the past, occasionally agree with you.

BTW, I am having a great Sunday. The fishing was good this morning out at the Huntington Flats and the Lakers are fixin to put the Kings to sleep. Its 85 outside, the Barbies fired-up, and life is good!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 30, 2000.

Glad you had a great Sunday, and a good fishing expedition. I may as well say go Lakers, because my team, the nets, limped to the end of the season. I am jealous of the barbie, though, as we have not had barbecue weather.

I am not adverse to telling it like it is; I am also second in command where I work, albeit not under the same racial mix as yourself. I have worked in offices where I was the minority, and my reward for telling it like it was was to be hunted down and terminated by one who I had reported a year earlier for less than ethical work habits.

In that company the non-caucasions did have a laissez-faire attitude- and could care less if they did the job right-But I have seen that from white-folk, too, and have worked with tireless minority workers.

My thing is that there is not a "one-size-fits-all" way to describe any group of people, and that there is danger in doing this. Yes, I can come off like I am chasing at windmills, but I DO know what is going on "out there" and I think if the root of rascism were eliminated and if there were truly equal opportunity for all, then there would certainly be different results.

I am having a sense of deja vu that the two of us have been here before-diametrically opposed-but as before I say I will agree to disagree and be no more disagreeable.

I too will look forward to your posts.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 30, 2000.

Some may think this is a frivolous question but I don't so I'll ask it anyhow: What is the significance of the obvious superiority of athletes of black African heritage (in any culture) as compared to the atletes of any other race? (this is a statistical truth--obviously not ALL blacks are superior athletes to all Asians or all Caucasions).

-- (nemesis@awol.net), May 01, 2000.

nemesis - I don't think you can arbitrarily list All Africans as superior in athletic prowess. There appears to be some regionalization within Africa. For instance, there is something about Kenyans that make them superior in long distance running - for years noone else has come even close in the Boston Marathon race. Physiology perhaps? It would be interesting to see if there is a regional difference in other sports as well - don't just lump them together because their skin is dark. What part of Africa did their ancestors come from?

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

x,

Now, I haven't read this whole thread yet, but you (or anyone else, for that matter) should have, at the very least, afforded each poster the dignity of being treated as an individual, showed that you understand the definition of what is a racist, addressed the specific points in their posts that you have a problem with, specifically demonstrating how and why you think that term might possibly apply to each person, and allowed for a response by each of them.

Further, even if after all this you conclude the individual is a racist in no way justifies pasting it on a billboard. Individual readers may have a different opinion, and in any case, the posters' words alone -- through their initial posts and responses to you -- should be enough to either indict or vindicate them in this respect, and would be more than sufficient to proclaim their positions.

So, it looks as if you're just out for vicious, random character assassination.

Shame on you.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

Eve

You begin your post by declaring that you have not read the whole thread yet. Then you go into your indignant retort so full of your self-imposed requirements for correct social behavior. I have a concept for you to consider: the folks who post here are not really real. Few give their names or real email addys (very understandable) and there is no way to confirm the truthfulness of statements or opinions. Likewise, you are not real so your righteous preaching carries no weight as well.

You have the unrestricted right to post your better-than-thou thoughts but expect to be carved-up by us poor sinners. With little exception, people DO have the right to post whatever they like to this forum. Should it meet your approval or not is of absolutely ZERO importance.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), May 01, 2000.

"What is the significance of the obvious superiority of athletes of black African heritage (in any culture) as compared to the atletes of any other race? (this is a statistical truth--obviously not ALL blacks are superior athletes to all Asians or all Caucasions)."

Zecharia Sitchen says that the native Africans were genetically engineered by the Nefilim to be slaves in their mining efforts on that continent. That objective would imply that strong physical characteristics were of primary importance.

-- Anthropoligist (anthro@exploring.ourroots), May 01, 2000.

I don't think folks can help but generalize based on their experiences or stories they've been told. If the majority of slackers one has seen in the workplace are of one race or another, one may extrapolate to this experience being representative of the workplace in general. The problem with the extrapolation is that it's based on only one factor [skin color], while many other factors aren't considered. Brooks mentioned this regarding athletic prowess.

It seems to me that slackers in the workforce are more a product of their upbringing than their race [which would explain why Ra and Future have seen the trait in both races.] I haven't looked at statistics regarding welfare recipients in perhaps 2 years, but the last time I looked, more caucasians were on welfare roles than blacks. Children raised in welfare families may/may not have been taught in the home that one works an hour's pay for an hour's wage. Certainly children raised in working families may not have been taught this either, but at least there's a role model.

I grew up on the south side of Chicago. The south side of Chicago with few exceptions was/is quite reflective of an area in which working poor and blue-collar workers could afford housing in the Chicago area. The south side was once predominantly caucasian, but due to the availability of inexpensive housing, blacks who wished to buy homes found the area affordable. Unfortunately, the caucasians in the area feared property values would wither if the neighborhoods didn't remain homogeneous. This fear was exacerbated by real-estate brokers who engaged in "block busting" or "steering." The end-result was something that we called the THREE WAVES.

Wave 1 consisted of very nice people [although of a different color] moving into the neighborhood. These people were harrassed, their homes set on fire, etc. These acts of harrassment and vandalism weren't necessarily performed by the locals. We learned later that the block busters sent in folks from other neighborhoods as well.

The Wave 1 folks had done nothing wrong, but the violence exhibited in the neighborhood in general, plus the constant calls by real estate brokers led folks to believe that the neighborhood was no longer safe. This led more and more folks to sell their homes, giving an opening to Wave 2. Wave 2 folks didn't want to be the first of a different race in a neighborhood [for good reason], and felt more comfortable in a neighborhood with others of their race, yet wanted to escape undesirable elements who we called Wave 3.

Once Wave 2 had pretty much cleared the path for an all-black community, Wave 3 moved in. Wave 3 was also orchestrated by parties in a position to gain money by property exchanging hands.

On the South Side of Chicago, we lived in two neighborhoods that went through these changes. By the time I was old enough to attend school, I'd already missed Wave 1 in the first. We moved after Wave 3 because our landlord sold the building. In the second neighborhood, Wave 2 had already begun in a nearby neighborhood, so there was a good racial mix at my new school. Again, we stayed long beyond Wave 3, when my father got an outstanding offer from a real- estate broker.

Some folks have only been exposed to Wave 3. Wave 3 consists of a subculture which has never known honest work. Wave 3 would include pimps, drug dealers, thieves, etc. Children raised in Wave 3 homes would never be taught the work ethics taught in the homes of Wave 1 and Wave 2 unless taught by someone outside the family...a mentor, a role-model at school, etc. Policemen, in particular, develop more prejudices because their exposure is typically only to those of Wave 3. Children exposed to Waves 1 through 3 develop prejudices only to Wave 3 unless influenced by others.

One of the most heart-warming experiences of my life was one winter day when our block was completely snowed in [and then iced in.] No one could pull their cars from the front of their house, and even if they could, they'd soon get stuck in deep ruts of ice. My dad just couldn't stand staying home from work, so he set out to shovel the street himself. I watched from the window for a while before I grabbed a coal shovel myself and went out to help. We were the only white folks living in a Wave 3 neighborhood. I'm sure there was more than one chuckle regarding the foolish white man and his daughter trying to shovel the block by themselves. Within 15 minutes, however, the entire block was out shoveling with my dad and me. Folks we didn't even know came over to where he'd started, introduced themselves, shook hands, and went to work. Within another 15 minutes, women were coming out giving everyone hot chocolate and other warm drinks. With the force of many, we finished our block and the particularly treacherous corners.

I apologize for the length. Once I started typing, I just couldn't stop.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

Ra,

If everyone was completely anonymous, you'd have a good point. But that's not the case. There are certainly many people who do desire to have something (or quite a bit) known about them, for example, in order to develop friendships. I mean, Ra, you made some very nice compliments to me on a thread about Milne a couple of months ago, and I thanked you for them. As I integrate that exchange with everything else of yours I've seen, you become more "real" to me in the sense that a personality behind the posts begins to take shape. Doesn't that mean anything at all to you?

And of course you can confirm the truthfulness of some statements or opinions without knowing anything about the poster. If the poster said that Elian actually never came to the U.S., we wouldn't have to check on his credentials.

I never intend that my thoughts come across as necessarily "better than thou," and to the extent that you or others see me that way -- I'm sorry, but I really don't know what to say; I'm just being who I am. If I happen to stumble on what I feel is a gross injustice, then I might say something. By the way, if you've read most of my stuff, you'd know that I've absolutely been wrong about things in the past. I was a doomer, for example -- and I was dead wrong in my predictions. And there certainly have been other threads where I was shown errors and/or poor judgment in my positions.

What you see as my trying to impose "correct social behavior" I see as treating people (and, yes -- the posts really do represent people) with common decency and respect, and giving them the benefit of the doubt. First off, obviously my comments have no power to impose anything here. And more specifically, I'm trying to show "x" at least how to go about using a rational method to demonstrate an actual tie-in with the epithet he's casually tossed out. So far all he/she's done is lump them all together, call them racists, set up a link and paste some quotes.

Finally, I knew full well that adding my opinion to an incendiary topic like this might result in some who would want to "carve me up."

So be it.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

Anita, great story. That brought tears to my eyes. =*)

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), May 01, 2000.

Thank you so much, Anita. Your story expresses the essence of what must be regained if we are to survive as a nation: community. People getting past the visuals and the fears and working together to build a community. A simple gesture of care showed others that it was safe to come together and make one little part of the world better, however briefly. I hope a seed was planted there.

This from a very conservative, middle-class, church-going white guy who's trying to teach his kids that evil is a matter of the heart, and that skin color and race are purely externals.

I guess it's working. My teenage daughter thinks that Dougray Scott, Jason Scott Lee, and Denzel Washington are all "major hotties". So far, so good. 8-}

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), May 01, 2000.

Thanks Anita, for the beautiful, inspiring story.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

In the recorded history of man there has never been a society that existed with racial, ethnic, or religious harmony. Can anybody show an example to give exception to this fact? Where have two or more groups of different race, ethnic, or religious influences ever lived together in harmony without repressive controls? How then will we humans manage to pull off this feat that has never before been accomplished? All theories welcome.

-- Sifting (through@the.rubble), May 01, 2000.

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts, but I've read enough to want to put my 2 cents in. I am probably the biggest racist on this board. And the race I'm constantly bashing is "white trash." Why my own race? Simply this. Even if we grow up in families as poor as dirt, like my own, we will always be the acceptable race.

Some of the black people Deb Mc was talking about worked in an office where my mother's best friend worked and she said the same things about them that Deb did. The only difference, is that the woman herself was black. She felt about slacker, racist black people, just like I feel about racist, slacker white people, those I call white trash.

I worked with one of those in an office of a large Savings and Loan years ago. She never missed an opportunity to get out of work, she made snide remarks about a lot of our customers to me and snide remarks about other emplyees.. She hated all religions but her own. She hated all races but white. When the boss was out she did her nails, talked on the phone and made fun of him. The rest of us worked. These people come in all shades and colors and they are trash and always looking for a free ride. I'm sorry to say it is a universal problem.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 01, 2000.

Anthropologist, I'm so glad to read that someone besides me has read Sitchin. Reading those books was the biggest revelations I've ever experienced. As you may know from other posts, I'm not a Christian, but I always felt their was some logical reason for the Bible, I just didn't buy the story line.

Also, I've seen so much art work that features what looks like flying objects. Weren't these the most remarkable books. Anyone with doubs should check the documentation.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 01, 2000.

"This I Believe" by Robert A. Heinlein

"I am not going to talk about religious beliefs but about matters so obvious that it has gone out of style to mention them. I believe in my neighbors. I know their faults, and I know that their virtues far outweigh their faults. "Take Father Michael down our road a piece. I'm not of his creed, but I know that goodness and charity and lovingkindness shine in his daily actions. I believe in Father Mike. If I'm in trouble, I'll go to him."

"My next-door neighbor is a veterinary doctor. Doc will get out of bed after a hard day to help a stray cat. No fee--no prospect of a fee--I believe in Doc.

"I believe in my townspeople. You can know on any door in our town saying, 'I'm hungry,' and you will be fed. Our town is no exception. I've found the same ready charity everywhere. But for the one who says, 'To heck with you - I got mine,' there are a hundred, a thousand who will say, "Sure, pal, sit down."

"I know that despite all warnings against hitchhikers I can step up to the highway, thumb for a ride and in a few minutes a car or a truck will stop and someone will say, 'Climb in Mac - how far you going?'

"I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest, decent, kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up. Business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news. It is buried in the obituaries, but is a force stronger than crime. I believe in the patient gallantry of nurses and the tedious sacrifices of teachers. I believe in the unseen and unending fight against desperate odds that goes on quietly in almost every home in the land.

"I believe in the honest craft of workmen. Take a look around you. There never were enough bosses to check up on all that work. From Independence Hall to the Grand Coulee Dam, these things were built level and square by craftsmen who were honest in their bones.

"I believe that almost all politicians are honest. . .there are hundreds of politicians, low paid or not paid at all, doing their level best without thanks or glory to make our system work. If this were not true we would never have gotten past the 13 colonies.

"I believe in Rodger Young. You and I are free today because of endless unnamed heroes from Valley Forge to the Yalu River. I believe in -- I am proud to belong to -- the United States. Despite shortcomings from lynchings to bad faith in high places, our nation has had the most decent and kindly internal practices and foreign policies to be found anywhere in history.

"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown. In the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability, and goodness of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth. That we always make it just by the skin of our teeth, but that we will always make it. Survive. Endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes will endure. Will endure longer than his home planet -- will spread out to the stars and beyond, carrying with him his honesty and his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage and his noble essential decency.

"This I believe with all my heart."

Robert A. Heinlein wrote this item in 1952. His wife, Virginia Heinlein, chose to read it when she accepted NASA's Distinguished Public Service Medal on October 6, 1988, on the Grand Master's behalf (it was a posthumous award).

Mrs. Heinlein received a standing ovation.

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), May 01, 2000.

Ooops!

Font off. Sorry...

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), May 01, 2000.

Sifting,

Hi -- and great question!

I think a wonderful start would be if we all realized that there was something far more important that skin color and culture that binds all of us together. It's the one thing that sets human beings apart from all other living things, and the one thing that we all have in common. And that's our rational faculty -- our ability to think, to conceptualize. In other words -- our minds.

I really believe my boys already see it this way, in part because I (as well as their dad and other influences) made little or no emphasis on skin color in bringing them up (sometimes there would be a good reason to have a discussion on skin color -- say, if a comment was overheard, or a new law was to take effect), all the while emphasizing our ability to think as the crucial factor, as that is how we as human beings survive, flourish and should relate to each other. The role of emotion is important, too -- but that requires more explanation, and I don't have much time right now.

In any case, this is the beginning of the road as to how we will hopefully ultimately become one community in the truest, most exquisite sense of the word "community."

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.

All we need is a good common enemy. Martians, anyone?

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

Sifting:

I've already seen significant changes since my South Side of Chicago days. We live in Texas now in a neighborhood that is as diverse as any can find. We have neighbors who are black, neighbors who are Christian fundamentalists [of both races], neighbors who are Oriental, neighbors who are Hispanic, neighbors who are from the Middle-East, and neighbors who are from India. On nice days, half the block congregates at the lawn of whoever is working on their lawn. It's humorously referred to as "group supervision."

This is not to say that things haven't changed on Chicago's South Side. Block-busting and steering were finally deemed illegal operations by someone and neighborhoods took on open buying, much like we've seen here in Texas. After moving to Wisconsin after retirement, my mom and dad asked me to find a home for them in the Chicago area so they could be closer to family. They only had about $20,000 to spend and felt themselves too old to obtain a mortgage. I found them a home in a lovely area that was already experiencing Wave 1. I was a bit concerned about the neighborhood changing, so went door-to-door asking neighbors if they planned on moving. Some did and some didn't. Mom and dad said to buy the house.

Within one year, a friend of mine from childhood bought a house on the same block. Who wanted to spend $120,000 [at that time] for a house that could be obtained on the South Side of Chicago for $40,000? The caucasian policeman on one side of dad never moved out. A new caucasian family bought the home on the other side of dad. The black family across the street stayed and taught dad all sorts of things about gardening. I think the house next to that was one of mixed race. The next house had something else, all down the block. These folks got together for block parties each year and the neighborhood was full of activity day and night as people visited neighbors, went jogging, etc.

Mom and dad lived in that house for 15 years until the cancer/suicide incident forced me to move them to an assisted care facility. Friends of my friend down the street bought their house for over $60,000. They could have gotten more for the house, but they liked the young couple and their budget couldn't extend further.

I see old barriers broken down every day. MY kids have never noticed color or religion as barriers. If I asked them the color of a friend, they'd respond with "peach, light brown, medium brown, black", etc. My son has a good friend who is a Fundamentalist Christian. They debate creation/evolution all the time. I've seen prejudice in my kids against those who bear prejudice, but I haven't seen prejudice based on appearance or other beliefs.

You might think we live in a cocoon, but I've seen quite a few aberations come through my home. [grin] When I asked why a male friend was wearing a dress, my daughter simply said, "He finds them more comfortable than pants on occasion."

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 01, 2000.

Flora, you realize that you have the answer dont you? A common enemy or threat will bond all peoples together as long as it lasts. And Eve, it IS our ability to think and reason that allows us to be prejudicial and racist. Anita, I too have seen and experienced the blending you speak of but it makes up a minute percentage of the total.

-- Ra (through@the.rubble), May 01, 2000.

Ra,

Yeah, 'fraid so. If it works for cubscouts, it no doubt would work on us.

But what will it take? We can't even rally against the AIDS virus.

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

Gilda,

It is Likewise, nice to know that you too, are interested in people like Sitchin. I find his ideas rather fascinating and have read most of his books except perhaps the last few. I like people who have the courage to espouse iconoclastic views about some of the Science Priesthood's sacred cows. The upper levels of modern science are occupied by defenders of the status quo, and they often deliberately stifle true scientific inquiry. I've also been a ling time fan of Immanuel Velikovsky, and of course you probably know how he has been villified.

I agree with you that there appear to be flying disks or objects in a number of ancient art works, as well as things like references to Ezekiel and the wheel. I don't purport to know the answers either, but am always searching. I don't feel that many contemporary theories adequately explain things. For instance, Evolution is a fact, yet I've never felt that I was descended from amoebas bathing in primordial soup. It makes a lot of sense that earth might have been "seeded" by those whom were later referred to as "gods". Since a long time has passed, naturally evolution has been busily shaping us further. I am particularly puzzled by the distinct races that developed in different parts of the world. We are busy with genetic engineering now, so why couldn't some people from the past engaged in it also?

Although fundamentalist Christians would probably take exception with these ideas, I don't see that the two positions are irreconcilable. If you accept the possibility that the modern Bible contains the Word of God, but also a lot of mistranslations, allegorical, and politically correct stuff from the past put there by human beings, the gulf narrows.

I always remember reading about a supposed UFO contact incident a number of years ago in which the UFOnauts were fairly humanoid and could pass for Earthlings. The human asked them about the probability of life on other planets coincidentally developing similar to humans on Earth. One of the UFOnauts responded "God made Man in His own image. Couldn't he also have done so with us?

Keep up the good work!

-- Anthropoligist (anthro@exploring.ourroots), May 01, 2000.

Anita,

Thanks for the wonderful posts, it really did lift my spirits. It is hard for me to explain the suffering I went through, though I'm sure it's nothing compared to what many blacks suffered in the South. There is anger, distrust and confusion inside me where there was none before, before I worked with the State EEO. It is a difficult task to be objective when the malicious wounds are still fresh. To get a better understanding of racism though, today I went out and bought a copy of "Black Like Me". Yes, it's 40 years old, but perhaps it will shed some insight as to how some people think.

I understand and accept the statement that there are many racists of *all* races. My hang-up is with those who would portray that truth otherwise.

The only thing is, is that we ALL must shed past "habits"/"generalizations" for this to work. One side alone just won't do it, much less with "explosive" rhetoric.

-- Deb M (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), May 01, 2000.

DeeEmBee,

Great post from Mr. Heinlein. Thank you. It has been a long time since I have seen that.

-- Steve (sron123@aol.com), May 01, 2000.

Mornin' Ra,

You said,

[Eve, it IS our ability to think and reason that allows us to be prejudicial and racist.]

Nope -- It's the exact reverse. It's our abdication of thinking and reasoning and allowing ignorance and irrationality to take us over that leaves the ground fertile for racism.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 02, 2000.

Deb:

"It is hard for me to explain the suffering I went through, though I'm sure it's nothing compared to what many blacks suffered in the South. There is anger, distrust and confusion inside me where there was none before, before I worked with the State EEO. It is a difficult task to be objective when the malicious wounds are still fresh."

Did I miss the story on what happened? Do you work elsewhere now?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 02, 2000.

Anita,

Well, I'd rather not say where I'm working now, but yes, I'm not at the EEO anymore.

The State EEO/AA is IMO, extremely far from "practicing what it preaches". I had my job threatened and the "race card" thrown in my face, more usually behind my back.

At one time, even the department's Deputy Director [the 3rd level below the governor in State Gov't, and she even has a Doctorate degree] said a racist remark to me. Fortunately she is now retired, but the problems still remain in that department.

I had personally heard racial slurs against Orientals (mocking their voices and their mannerisms), hispanics, whites (one quote: "The white man wants to breed us to extinction. He wants us wiped off the face of the earth.") and even homosexuals. Many in EEO virulently hated homos because a former fellow employee/friend was fired because they made homo jokes to a supervisor who was one.

I heard slurs about white man's holidays (such as St. Patrick's day) ["Well, I'm not gonna celebrate because I'm NOT WHITE!"], against white man's cooking, and how white women were sexually inadequate ["Once they've had black, they'll never go back."]. I heard some people (including one whose parents are VERY rich) say that they were "out to milk the system" and that they would take as much as they could get. From my time there, it seemed like more than a few are bent on vengeance, not justice - "getting even" consumes them. I could go on and on, but I won't. I left that poisonous, hypocritical atmosphere and am trying to have a better, more content life.

I've been fortunate to have found some good friends who happen to be black, and I've discussed what happened to me with them. They've given me some hope and a sense of "balance", and we're now talking almost daily about race and where some miscommunications are. I guess that I'm dealing with more "Wave 1" and "Wave 2" type of people, because the environment is so much better. We can discuss this very touchy topic, but still haven't gotten angry and are trying to help each other out. Reading "Black Like Me" is helping me to gain some perspective on what's happened before, and learn from it. Unfortunately, it doesn't soften the pain, but at least it's explaining some of their actions.

What struck a chord with me was this article about slavery reparations and the "40 acres and a Lexus" (what started this thread in the first place) - is that it is the very same greed that I saw in EEO. It's not about solving race issues, or creating dialogue - it's about getting even. Until those kinds of thoughts stop, race is always going to be a problem.

-- Deb M (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), May 02, 2000.