OT-Abortion the debate continues

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The abortion debate on the last thread was growing kinda long so I would like to continue it here if you don't mind.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000



"Wasn't there an 'abortion doctor' who was killed by a 'pro life-er' awhile back?

I'd sincerely be thankful if you'd jot down your judgement on that incident."

No excuse what so ever for taking any doctors life. I in no way promote that kind of behavior.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.


"What if there's a conflict? Whose rights would have priority?"

The mother's life takes priority *IF* it came down to some medical reason that either the mother would die *IF* the babies life was not sacrificed.

The key word here is *IF*. In the scheme of things this is rarely the case when an abortion is used anymore.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.


Thanks for the reply.

Do you have an opinion on some of the stem cell stuff that is left over from fertilization procedures, and what is an appropriate useage of the tissue?

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.


-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.


I've heard some say it can contribute to life. I'm talking about what stuff that is left over from some fertilization procedures and disposed of.

I really don't know much about this, but you seem committed to your position, and I'd appreciate reading further from your perspective. Could you post an opinion please, the picture didn't really help me that much. Thanks.

-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

I am no expert in the field myself. With that said let me now say this. If any proceedure involves ending the life of, or posses danger to the baby at anytime, I am against that proceedure. There may be rare exceptions, some of them are which I commented on earlier.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.


I was cruising around a wee bit, and found an article about the debate in the senate about this issue.

Thought you might be intersted...


-- flora (***@__._), April 28, 2000.

Stop the Murder,

Hi again. First off I want to say that I appreciate your responses and I hope you don't think I'm coming down too hard on you with all my questions. But this is one way I learn, as well as share what I believe.

Okay...ready for the next one? Here goes...

If either the woman or the fetus would have to die...why -- on what basis -- would you choose the woman if they both had a right to life?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 28, 2000.

"why -- on what basis -- would you choose the woman if they both had a right to life?"

Eve, I pray to God I never will be in a position to make that decision. Beyond that, it's up to each family involved how they decide to handle it.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 28, 2000.


I'm sorry, I thought that you had said in a prior post that you would choose to save the woman. Given that, I then asked you why you would. But actually you're not sure how you would decide?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 28, 2000.

From: Freedom, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

In the originating post of this thread the person who is reportedly impersonating a certain susanwater states that "once the foetuses are removed from the womb they are eaten by the abortionist abortionists spend a year in an abattoir to refine their skills all abortionists are atheists and probably communists too Proper Christians, ie.Catholics, have always objected to the abhorrent procedure of aborting foetuses. "

How may we explain the fact that, roman catholic women have abortions at a higher rate than protestants? Source: Abortion Facts and Opinions

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), April 29, 2000.

eve "But actually you're not sure how you would decide?"

It would not be my decision alone to make. My wife's opinion (Big Grin) would carry much weight.

if your next question to me would be something like: "If she were unconscious..." being a Christian I would first have serious prayer time and discuss the particulars over closely with the doctors prior to making any decision.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.

I'll weigh in with a male viewpoint: fewer women would have this problem in the first place if more of us men would show some self control. Birth control is every bit a man's responsibility.

There are plenty of ways to please women sexually that don't involve risking pregnancy. That's my message to my younger male co- workers. For the most part, it goes in one ear and out the other.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), April 29, 2000.

Hey Stop,

I hope you're still out there somewhere.

I have a couple of questions for you. Be patient, it takes me ahwile to get things out & many times I have a hard time expressing my ideas in writing.

My mom is in her final days, last week was spent going through an old box of pictures before a crisis put her in permanent, but probably short term convalescent care.

I'd never seen many of the photos before, don't know where in the heck she'd squirreled them away all these years. Maybe it's the state of mind that I'm in, but the series that affected me the most were some from a great uncle who'd served in WWI under Pershing, and some of my father's from WWII - he was involved in projects in Africa early on & later Okinawa.

Many familiar landmarks were in the WWI photos. One that struck me was of the fantastic gothic Cologne Cathedral, which was virtually incinerated during WWII { a dark husk of the spire stands today as a memorial}.

The Okinawa photos...all I can say is that they have caused me to think deeply about humanity, and the human spirit...and sacrifice.

Now, warp back with me if you will. The doctor commented to my mom that diabetes has 'really not been kind to you'. She developed adult onset diabetes, but it looks like it had ravaged her bodily systems a good deal before being diagnosed. In reading about the potential knowledge and treatmemts that we may unlock from discarded tissue, which may contribute to quality of life -I just wanted to ask you if your position is still so very black & white?

Back to war...I think you might agree that some other countries might not feel a moral dilemma about stem cell research. In the long run, is it moral to hobble and restrict American scientists? When is sacrifice appropriate, I may be wrong but I'd guess that it is alright by you - that for the greater good we sent men and women off to war. Not to commit murder, but possibly to kill...

Do you have any thoughts respond with?

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.


May I first say it is a pleasure chatting with you. I must be honest though, at first I thought you may have been maneuvering for the best attack position. It seems I had you figured wrong. Thank you for for treating me with such civility.

Now back to your comments...

"In reading about the potential knowledge and treatments that we may unlock from discarded tissue,..."

From my point of view you are sacrificing a human life for research purposes. The "discarded tissue" became discarded a result of an abortion. Most people who die today don't voluntarily donate their

remains to science for research. They are normally buried in a cemetery. Why would we treat an aborted baby differently? I mean would YOU want to help anyone out by donating your body to scientific research after you'd just had your arms and legs ripped from your body by an abortion doctor prior to death?

"In the long run, is it moral to hobble and restrict American scientists?"

The act of an abortion is an immoral act in itself (in most cases). Not allowing research to be done on the remains is unethical and the only way to prevent an after market for aborted baby parts. As I understand it, this after market already exists and is becoming quite lucrative for abortion clinics/doctors.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.


I appreciate your civility and dedication to pursuing these topic{s} too!

When I discussed 'tissue', I was refering to 'leftover' embryos from fertility treatments, which are now put out with the garbage. I wasn't referring to aborted 'babies' {I think you were on thin ice with the emotional language use position}.

Look, I'm a mommy...I understand your point of view on abortions, and defend you right to hold to it in your personal life. I'm also a daughter, born to parents who had wished for a boy child.

The stem cell research thing had not even popped up on my horizon until we were midway through here, and I've found a piece of it that seems ethically challenging. Your participation here is illuminating for many of us. We are all facing a future with unique decisions to be made, and I think all of us will have our values put to the test.

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.


"I was refering to 'leftover' embryos from fertility treatments, which are now put out with the garbage."

Man, you are making this tough aren't you (VBG). Well from my religious point of view, human life begins at conception (fertility). I do not agree with the embryos being tossed into the garbage but I ethically & morally can not agree with or justify research to be done with them either.

"Your participation here is illuminating for many of us. We are all facing a future with unique decisions to be made, and I think all of us will have our values put to the test."

This subject is not an easy one to talk about calmly, on either side of the isle. Only by way of respectful discussion can we see each other as 'people' and not each others 'enemy'.

I came across some info (posted below here) that I thought may be of some interest to you.


As exposed on 20/20 ABC-TV this past March 8th, abortionists have found an additional way to profit from abortions. They provide eyes, livers, hearts, brains, and bodies of these little victims of "choice" to research laboratories for a service fee. Loopholes in existing laws make this possible and lucrative. Fresh, intact tissue is prized, and special abortion procedures and instruments are used to obtain it . . . without anesthetic for the victim. Help stop this further desecration of the preborn child and exploitation of his mother.

Assemblyman Steve Baldwin has introduced Assembly Bill AB 2202, "The Prevention of Exploitation of Women and Aborted Human Beings Act" to outlaw this practice in California. This bill will be heard in the Assembly Health Committee on May 9th. Your calls and letters of support are essential to help garner bi-partisan support.

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.

But Stop, we find outrselves here where the genie has left the bottle.

"I do not agree with the embryos being tossed into the garbage but I ethically & morally can not agree with or justify research to be done with them either."

When you describe yourself as being 'pro-life', how do you come to terms with allowing the potential for cures to be made with 'master cells' to be wasted?

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.

"...the genie has left the bottle."

Agreed! I think you understand my faith as a Christian guides my direction in every aspect of my life. With that in mind, let me say I have great difficulty with group embryo fertilization. When groups of embryos are fertilized, it is known in advance that most will never end up being used. Because of this we now have a moral issue to deal with, with the remaining embryos. These fertilized embryos according to Judeo-Christian belief, are the start of life. Doing anything with this life other than them being used to implant into a woman for child bearing is immorral. This is because any other 'use' would end their life.

I have come across some additional points of interest via some VERY sobering testimony on Partial Birth Abortion given by Dr. Leroy Carhart who was working for the University of Nebraska Medical Center at the time.

Here it is:


Question: In that situation, are you, when you pull on the arm and remove it, is the fetus still alive?

Carhart: Yes

Question: Do you consider an arm, for example, to be a substantial portion of the fetus?

Carhart: In the way I read it, I think if I lost my arm, that would be a substantial loss to me. I think I would have to interpret it that way.

Question: And then what happens next after you remove the arm? You then try to remove the rest of the fetus?

Carhart: Then I would go back and attempt to either bring the feet down or bring the skull down, or even sometimes you bring the other arm down and remove that also and then get the feet down.

Question: At what point is the fetus...does the fetus die during that process?

Carhart: I don't really know. I know that the fetus is alive during the process most of the time because I can see fetal heartbeat on the ultrasound.

The Carhart Testimony

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.

Okey dokey Stop,

I think I understand and appreciate your position.

Please don't think I'm being disrespectful. My favorite Uncle had a doctorate in theology from Yale. My Aunt {his wife} was psychology professor at a university. When she was out of town, he used to come for dinner, because once I got out of my highchair I've been interested in discussing these things [ he said I reminded him of her & that they could debate their 'way around the equator'}.

Now my next question to you would be in how committed you are to making your personal constraints and beliefs impact those who are of a differing stance. {Political stuff}.

Now {you poor thing!} my next question is about organ donation. How do you feel about that stuff. I used to fill out the card on my driver's liscense, then I became too paranoid..ya know?!

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.

"Now my next question..."

WOW! Are you any relation to the Energizer Bunny? (Grin)

'...how committed you are to making your personal..."

What do you have in mind? Keep in mind, although some here may think so, I am not a full time employee of Right To Life or Operation Rescue (VBG).

"How do you feel about that stuff."

I have no problem with the act of organ donations itself. But I do see a whole new line of questions coming up though!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.

Hey dude,

They're not questions as much as they are dilemmas, eh?

If you look back in your geneology, I bet even you've got some pink bunniness - just for the fact that you've hung in here this long.

Thanks. Have a good evening with Mrs. Stop, Kay?!

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.

"Have a good evening with Mrs. Stop..."

You too. Nice chatting. I hope we can have peaceable discussions again sometime.

Being a Christian I do tend to take a lot of heat on occassion over topics such as this but it is worth it in the long run.

God Bless!

-- Stop The Murder (abortion@kills_our_kids.com), April 29, 2000.


Let me say to you that my mom's family suffered through the deaths of their male children, through stillbirh & SIDS. This is not a topic through which I tread lightly...

Have you personally suffered from periods which may have helped to frame your point of view?

-- flora (***@__._), April 29, 2000.

Stop, do you make any distinction between a gamete, a zygote, an embryo, a fetus,and a baby? Do you believe that killing ANY of these living things is murder, manslaughter, wrong, etc, in to the same degree? In other words, is it just as bad to kill a Zygote as it is to kill a baby, for instance?

I am not a christian, but I am curious if the bible, or some other best seller comments on this subject. If not, how did you reach your conclusions?


-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), April 30, 2000.


As much as I may disagree with you, I appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness regarding the dilemma I set up for you.

Take care...

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), May 01, 2000.


I gotta say, I think that if I {hypothetical situation} had leftover embryos from fertility treatments, that I would prefer they contribute, if they could, to the benefit of my fellow man rather than end up in the ground or the landfill.

Now, are we approaching the point where society diverges? Should federal research money be available for informed research?

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

Now I'm torturing you...doesn't that position make me more 'pro- life'?!

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

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