The writer of this book thinks so! From the Truth Behind Religion website comes this book review. I didn't write it, but I'd like to see some discussion on this.

http://listen.to/thetruth

Billions of Christians believe Christ was crucified, buried, and then rose again. This is the basis for Christian faith. What if Jesus survived the crucifixion? Would this be pure blasphemy or is there reason behind this assumption? There is evidence in the gospels themselves that say Christ may have survived the crucifixion and that the crucifixion to put it bluntly was a "fraud."

Writer and researcher Michael Baigent, author of Holy Blood-Holy Grail, and other scholars believe that the gospels are suspect to the theory of the survival of Christ. He says his theories are not intended to offend, but one must keep a clear distinction between the Jesus of history and the Jesus of theology even though the Jesus of theology is based on the historical Jesus. One can only find the figure of the Jesus of history by teasing out of various historical documents, some which are the New Testament.

In the theory of the survival of Jesus, there are a number of clues which help support it, but there are two major clues that are the strongest. The first is in the crucifixion itself. When a person was crucified they did not die quickly, but rather a slow painful, morbid death which would have taken two to three days, possibly even a week. Jesus supposedly died within two to three hours. Joseph of Arimethea went to Pilot and asked to have the body of Jesus, which was contrary to Roman law anyway, and when Pilot heard that Jesus was already dead, he was so surprised to hear that Jesus had died so quickly that he sent a centurion to check. The second oddity is that the crucifiction took place in what seemed to be a private garden and tomb owned by Joseph of Arimethea. The importance of this observation is that if there was any fraudulence associated with the crucifixion, then the public could be kept away in a private garden and Jesus could be privately taken away, revived, tendered and ministered to.

If Jesus did not die on the cross he would have been forced to flee the Holy Land. If authorities discovered Jesus was still alive, he would have been punished again. So where would he have gone? There is a story of Christ's life after the crucifixion. That the blood relatives of Jesus may still live among us!

Rennes le Chbteau is at the foot of the Peraniese Mountains in the South of France. This small town is at the center of a religious and historical cyclone. The story begins with a young Parish priest by the name of Birenger Saunihre. Birenger Saunihre was first assigned to Rennes le Chbteau in 1885 at the age of 33. He started renovations of the church and found a suspicious hallow piece in the altar when taking it apart. Within the hallow piece he found four parchments, which started the mystery. Two of the parchments were written in code which he could not decipher. Saunihre took the parchments to Paris to seek help from experts in military code and ciphers. It is believed that he found the key to unlocking the mystery of the documents. It is also believed that someone gave Saunihre money to find out what information was obtained in the parchments or perhaps to keep the secrets of Rennes le Chbteau from becoming public. When Birenger Saunihre went home he started a full renovation of the church. He found new details within the church's artwork that he thought to be clues to the information contained in the parchments.

Is it possible that the coded documents revealed to Birenger Saunihre that Christ had survived the crucifixion? In a depiction of stage fourteen of the cross, which is normally the body of Christ being carried to the tomb, Saunihre showed the moon as already risen, thus Passover had already begun. No Jew would handle a dead body after the beginning of Passover. Either Saunihre was showing that:

a) The body is not dead or b) They were taking the body out of the tomb and not in.

After renovating the church, Saunihre still had some money left over, so he continued in Rennes le Chbteau and built a house, garden, and a tower which he named after Mary Magdala (Magdalene). The figure of Mary Magdala may prove key to historical legends that Mary Magdala traveled to the South of France, in addition some scholars believe she may have been the wife of Jesus.

A number of documents spoke of relationships between Mary Magdala and Jesus which could only be described as close. For example, it was witnessed that Jesus kissed her often on the lips to the point where the other disciples complained, perhaps they felt jealous. Jesus was a religious teacher. It was very unusual for a Jewish religious teacher to be unmarried, in fact a commandment of God was to be fruitful and multiply. The question arose, what could possibly be so important about this relationship that would cause such a mystery?

Michael Baigent believes two stories converge here. Could the Holy Grail, the illusive treasure of legend and myth be the key to unlocking this mystery? It would seem unrelated to Jesus and Mary but may be the most important clue of all. The Holy Grail was thought of as the chalice Christ drank from at the Last Supper, and which may of held his blood after the crucifixion. Could the Holy Grail have another meaning? A meaning hidden in the French words for Holy Grail:

SAN GREAL = Holy Grail, if broken differently to

SANG REAL = Blood Royal, the royal blood line

During research historical proof was found that the line of David, Jesus' blood line, existed in Europe during Medieval Times. According to Birenger Saunihre when the knight finds the Grail, he does not find the golden chalice, but proof that Jesus survived the crucifixion.

In 1917 when Saunihre was dying, he called for a priest to hear his confessions. When the priest did, he fled from the room in shock, never smiling again. Perhaps Saunihre imparted in him a secret, a secret that has been suppressed for 2,000 years. A secret that Jesus had survived the crucifixion. A secret that Jesus had a relationship with Mary Magdala, a relationship which produced children. And that these children made their way to France, where the bloodline of Christ, the bloodline of the royal line of David, continued and in fact continues today.

Your looking at the difference between the Jesus of theology and the Jesus of history. The Jesus of theology is a God the Jesus of history is a man like all other men. "We are trying to regain the Jesus of history, to find Jesus the man who walked, loved, and taught in Judah in the 1st Century A.D."

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 23, 2000

Answers

The Lord is risen.

Let the world rejoice.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 23, 2000.

!Amen! !El Seqor vive!

-- Ignacio (noquierodecir@ningunaparte.com), April 23, 2000.

Don't know Tarzan... I wasn't there...

snoozin'...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 23, 2000.

At least we're not talking about Elian anymore!

Someone sent this to me. I think this is from The Onion.

Jerusalem, April 15, 1995- -Archeologists who have been excavating in the hills above Jerusalem announced today the discovery of a 2000- year-old mummy bearing puncture wounds through the hands and feet and a deep laceration in the lower left chest. Scientists noted that there was a large accumulation of blood in the lower body, consistent with the body having been upright at the time of death. Carbon dating of the body and its burial shroud indicated death had occurred 1990 +- 95 years ago. The archeologists stated that in spite of its age, the body was well preserved in the dry air of the hidden, sealed cave. A senior archeologist, asked if this was the body of Jesus Christ, refused to comment, but agreed that "the evidence is not inconsistent with that hypothesis." A younger archeologist, who requested anonymity, said "This is the corpse of Christ. Period. They're just going to have to cancel Easter this year."

A Vatican spokesman said that such a discovery was impossible, because they had the true burial cloth of Christ, the Shroud of Turin. Asked to explain its carbon date of approximately 1300 AD, the spokesman repeated the Vatican position that there was a burst of radiation at the time of the resurrection. In a separate news conference, another spokesman said that a careful reading of the Bible and Catholic doctrine would show that they were "not inconsistent" with such a discovery.

Ronald Reagan, former President of the United States, announced outrage that such a discovery should be made. In Lynchburg, Virginia, Jerry Falwell, leader of Moral Majority, denounced it as "an attempt by atheistic scientists to undermine the Constitution."

Armed troops were patrolling the Christian sections of Jerusalem after the Chief Rabbi commented that he "had always known the resurrection was a myth." The Israeli government ordered him to make no further statements on the discovery.

-- Alice in Wonderbra (alice@wonder.bra), April 23, 2000.

You're not alone if you find yourself honestly unconvinced about whether Christ rose from the dead. But keep in mind that Jesus promised God's help to those who want to be right with God. He said, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether My teaching comes from God or whether I speak on My own" (John 7:17 NIV).

If you do see the reasonableness of the resurrection, keep in mind that the Bible says Christ died to pay the price for our sins, and those who believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead will be saved (Romans 10:9-10). The salvation Christ offers is not a reward for effort, but a gift to all who in light of the evidence put their trust in Him.

10 reasons to believe Christ rose from the dead

-- someone (who@believes in.Him), April 23, 2000.

Tarzan, very interesting. I personally have never thought that Jesus was any more of a savior than my cat. However, unlike some, I do believe he lived, was a very good man and was crucified. But I never believed he rose again. This is just my own thoughts, not intended to offend or cause bloody flaming.

There's probably more to this story than will ever be known.

Love you handle Alice in Wonderbra. LOL!

Thanks for the address of the website, Tarzan.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 23, 2000.

I have read that parts of the Bible were mucked up (on purpose) by language interperters, to fit their current belief system. Did you have the Easter Bunny thing today? Best do some research on this one, Fertility Gods & such. I try to wade through the human interperations of the history passed down, and I keep coming back to "Love, yee, one another". "Forgivness for one another". And wasn't 60 Minutes an eye opener stating the "Y" Chromosone (mp), links the African Jewish with the white Jewish? Where did I read "We are all Breathern?". My God had the ability to die within man made time frames, or not, the bottom line, He Existed. By the way, do you bow your head when you pray? Why?, read da Book, humans didn't have the sense to muck up every passage of the Bible! Head lifted, eyes opened, and shout a joyous noise of praise and prayer!

-- Trusting (Soul@here.com), April 23, 2000.

This is nothing but Yet Another Variation on the old Passover Plot thing, which was thoroughly discredited back in the 1970's.

On the story that supposedly comes from The Onion (whatever that is): it's a patent fraud. You should have known that when you read it; how could Ronald Reagan have pronounced displeasure when HE'S DYING OF ALTZHEIMER'S?

-- Me (me@thisplace.net), April 23, 2000.

I'm glad that Jesus rose and went back to be with his Father. His distant relatives in Nazareth had no right to keep him there while denying his right to be with his Father! And it doesn't matter if Heaven is a dictatorship or not, Pontious Reno was right to send in the Roman Guard so that Jesus could be with his Father, where he belongs!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 23, 2000.

"Me", The Onion is a satire cartoon magazine. It's really funny. http://theonion.com/

Tarzan, if one is intent on keeping an open mind, one cannot dismiss Jesus of Theology vs. Jesus of History. It's very interesting, thanks for posting it. Although IMO, it could have waited until after the religious celebration of Easter. I mean, really, you couldn't hope for a worse time where people's mind are more closed to contradictory beliefs, knowing that a large percentage of posters here are Christians. JMHO.

-- Ann A. Lyse (@ .), April 23, 2000.

UNclE dEEdAH!!!! YoU aRE a JacKAl SwINe IdioT pOd PerSOne!!!! ArE yOU nOT??!!! yES oFCoURsE yOU Are!!!!!! bUNGhOleS tHaT sPEnd ToO muCh tIMe oN tHIs fOrUm WiLl bECoMe InfiDEl idIOtS!!!! oNlY dIETer hImsElf kNowS thAt iNFidEl PoDs aRe DeLuSIOnARy!!!!!! yEs??? YeS!!!! bE gONe dASteRDly hYeNa!!!!!

i HaTe yOU tOO!!!!! vERy mUCh!!!!

GoOd eVeNinG!!!!!

-- dieter (dIEteR@pond.com), April 23, 2000.

It has always been interesting to me, that when one human sought another human on the font level, one to one, some "disprupter" came on the scene. Folks have been searching for "Dieter" for months, I have read the quests, he/she never showed up, until this post, to dis-credit. I believe this "Dieter" to be bogas. Get Thee, behind me.

-- Trusting (Soul@here.com), April 23, 2000.

Honest, I once had straight "A"'s for spelling, aint't gonna happen in this time frame. Please overlook.

-- Trusting (Soul@here.com), April 23, 2000.

†
No, it wasn't.

PS, I love you,
Iam

-- The Ultimate Nazarene (looking@down.in.love), April 24, 2000.

Ah, Lord Greystoke. Starting a thread questioning the truth of the "Crucifixtion" (sic) on the day before Christians the world over celebrate the Resurrection. Well done. After all your protestations on the other thread about not really taking Holy Week into account and so forth, the sensitivity demonstrated here is really quite remarkable. I look forward to your thread sometime near the start of Ramadan about Mohammed's lack of prophetic qualifications.

Thatsaid, it's rather difficult to take seriously any critique of the historical accuracy of events surrounding the Crucifixion which cannot even get Pontius Pilate's name right. As far as I know, that local politician did not spend much time guiding boats. Perhaps it's mentioned in the Apocrypha. I must have missed it.

Re Mr. Baigent's book, I'll let an Amazon reviewer provide the commentary:

Three Stars (out of Five) If I vanish after this review appears, I was wrong!

Reviewer: Timothy R. O'Neill from Alexandria, Virginia December 16, 1999

Where to I begin? In the middle, like Baigent et al.? Everywhere at once, like Umberto Eco in his fabulous sendup, Foucault's Pendulum? It makes a difference where you begin, if (as in this case) you know where you're going and are determined to end up there no matter what, even if you have to plow some entirely new trails to get there. The authors explore the ancestral DNA of conspiracy theories, the central illusion that is of interest because it touches on all other conspiracies, including this one. (Work with me, here.) The authors relate some fascinating oddities, but their task is really to sew them all together in a systematic way. No one could possibly do that; Baigent and is co-conspirators at least manage to fail entertainingly.

The premise of the book is accessible in any of the other reviews posted here, so I won't bother to relate the line of reasoning except to say that it isn't spun from whole cloth as much as it is stitched together like a crazy quilt from a host of Old World paranoias of varying antiquity. It's about Them: The Templars, the Illuminati, the Elders of Zion, the Men in Black; those who would rule the world (and may be doing so now). They are out there, and we'd rather not annoy Them. But they deny they exist; or they claim to exist, but since they must always lie, they don't. With me?

The quilt is held together by sheer joyful cross-eyed tautology and, more important, by a reasoning commonly infecting conspiracy theories, more blatant here than usual. It goes like this:

"There is a delicate thread of evidence that A may be true; if A is true, isn't it possible that B is also true? And if A and B are true, couldn't C be true?" If this sounds absurd, look for the passages in the book that shamelessly chant this reasoning. But the authors are innocent of conditional probability; by the time they get to C, the combined probability has the mass of a quark.

If you ignore the premise, there is a lot of fun speculation in Holy Blood, Holy Grail. If you believe it, you should consider a low-sugar diet and avoid watching the Fox Network.

I give it five stars for sheer anti-intellectual audacity; zero stars for the ignorant and credulous because it may lead them into EVIL. Median: three stars. These three stars symbolize the masons of the Temple of . . . OH NO! They're at the door! Quick! I must finish this review and [esc]

Scully and Mulder will working this pretty soon, I expect. Templars, Illuminati, the Merovingian Dynasty: they could get one, maybe even two full seasons of shows from Mr. Baigent's work.

Happy Easter, everyone!

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 24, 2000.

Tarzan, -- me Jane.

Let's swing together from the tallest tree.

(Or anywhere else you want.)

-- (Jane @thinks Tarzan's .cool), April 24, 2000.

Unc, your wit is priceless and accurate. LOL

That is not Dieter.

Holy Week is just another week to many of us.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 24, 2000.

Did A Historical Jesus Exist?

-- -@- (question@everything.xxx), April 24, 2000.

Historical records confirm that the bible as it is known today was glued together at the Council of Nicea (under the influence of Constantine) in 325 A.D.

This was a purely political move by Constantine to secure his position as emperor, as well as pass the title along in a hereditary line.

Papus was the official historian for this event. According to his writing what went on between the various religious leaders wasn't a pretty sight.

Constantine wanted to paint himself as a devout Christian, yet he was also the one who instutited the death penalty for anyone who failed to accept the new church dogma. It is well known that what was left out of this bible-making-event, now resides in the Vatican Library. If it were available I am sure these missing books would make for some interesting reading, but if anyone thinks any of our present day religions (Western) or governments will allow the public to learn more than what has been set in place to allow the religious/political system to maintain control, is nuts.

The man Jesus was no doubt a very good, kind, loving man, but alas, his teachings went down the drain with the greedy, power hungry men who took his memory and twisted it into a shape to fit their own agenda.

Attempting to think objectively, the "words of Jesus" weren't written down until some 75/100 years after his death. Does anyone besides me find it odd that exact repeating of what someone said at this late time would be remembered verbatum?

Heck, most of us can't remember what someone said to us yesterday, let alone 75 years later.

Jesus and the bible were good things but in this our era, we're right back to where Constantine started, the Jesus and the bible are religious/political tools to foster whatever agenda is being sought.

Was he crucified? (I am not that old) Wasn't there, so all I can do is imagine what may or may not have really happened. But, there is too much information that casts doubt on what we've been forced to accept and what may be fact.

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), April 24, 2000.

The power and meaning of Christianity are in its myths. It is a mystery religion. You seem to think that, by pointing to the central myth of Christianity and saying very loudly,"IT'S A MYTH!", that you are somehow saying something shocking or lethal, instead of trivial.

The supreme irony of all is that the story you are peddling here as history is just a substitute myth, posing as not-a-myth. In believing it, you are placing yourself at exactly the same level as the silly fundamentalist Bible literalists who think a whale swallowed Jonah.

Only your myth isn't very satisfying on the whole. It has the betrayal part OK, but it hasn't got any redemption. All it really seems to accomplish well as a myth is that it is a not-Christian myth, for people whose major religious identification is not-Christian (as opposed to anything positive, like Deist or atheist or Buddhist).

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 24, 2000.

I recently heard a debate between Dan Barker of the Freedom from Religion Foundation (www.ffrf.org) and a Christian from the Watchtower society.

Barker made more than a few telling points. Many Christians do not believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected, which would violate many laws of physics. There is no evidence that the early Christians believed in a bodily resurrection - their Jesus was a wisdom teacher who died and was resurrected in their hearts. St Paul does not clearly refer to a bodily resurrection (this argument involves reading the original Greek.) The crucifiction and resurrection do not surface in Christian doctrine until the Gospels were written over 50 years (2 generations) after the supposed death of Jesus. At that time, Christians were constructing a religion, taking bits and pieces of the common pagan lore and adding them to their beliefs. (Many pagan beliefs at that time involved a virgin birth and bodily ascent into heaven after death.)

The only argument for Jesus' resurrection is that the Bible is true because the Bible says so. (Although it does not appear that the people who wrote the Bible intended it to be taken literally. Fundamentalism is a modern disease.) You can't argue with a closed position like that.

another interesting site: atheistsforjesus

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), April 24, 2000.

uhhh, kermit? There are no Christians in the watchtower society.

To all those that think Christianity is a myth, think again. I don't think I can spend the time to go over all the various proofs that the bible is historically accurate and correct, so I will ask you to read one book on the subject- evidence that demands a verdict written by Josh McDowell. This guy was an athiest who wanted to set the record straight once and for all....and ended up being overwhelmed by the massive amount of factual evidence for the resurrection and other important Christian doctrine.

-- B. Informed (or@be.left.out), April 24, 2000.

Problem with Christians, especially of the fundamentalist variety - no other self proclaimed Christian is "really" a Christian.

You hardly have time to go through the evidence that the Bible is true because the evidence is pretty overwhelming that it isn't. The evidence is also pretty overwhelming that Christians are so sure that they are right that bending or spinning the literal truth is an okay tactic.

If you are going to read one book - don't make it Evidence that Demands a Verdict without reading the extensive internet criticism of that book - you can start with the comments on Amazon, or go to ii

In terms of audience sizes and books sold, Josh McDowell is arguably the most influential apologist today. According to the back cover of the revised edition to his best-selling book Evidence That Demands a Verdict (ETDAV)[1] -- which was published in 1979 -- "during the last 20 years he has spoken in over 60 countries to more than seven million young people and adults in over 800 universities and high schools." And there are over one million copies of ETDAV in print."

ETDAV is also arguably the most influential Christian apologetics book on the Internet, which is what led the Internet Infidels to write The Jury Is In: The Ruling on McDowells "Evidence" (hereafter Jury). We remember the old alt.atheism days when every other refutation to a post was "read McDowell;" Christians posting feedback messages to the Internet Infidels recommended ETDAV more than all other Christian apologetics books combined.

In writing Jury, the authors do not mean to suggest that ETDAV is the best that Christian scholarship has to offer. On the contrary, we are well aware that there are many books defending the Christian faith which are more contemporary and more scholarly than ETDAV.[2] Still, the fact remains that ETDAV is much more influential than any of these other books; a systematic rebuttal to ETDAV has never before been available; and many lay Christians have interpreted the lack of such a rebuttal as an admission that ETDAV is irrefutable. For these reasons, the contributors felt it was important to write a systematic rebuttal to ETDAV.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), April 24, 2000.

I,m convinced that Baigent and Co are right. But I still don't know what on earth Sauniere could have found that was so absolutely convincing that Christ survived the crucifixion. Whatever it was he managed to blackmail the vatican into giving him unheard of wealth. If it was just old documents they can always be dismissed as fraudulent or whatever, as could any relic surely.

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), April 25, 2000.

"Problem with Christians, especially of the fundamentalist variety - no other self proclaimed Christian is "really" a Christian."

This is not just a problem for Christians. The Jews are even more divided among themselves. With over 200 sects of Hasidism (the "Real Jews" who do not agree even among themselves) down to the "Jews for Jesus", with conservative and reform Jews in between.

(Interesting site to learn about Hasidism from a Hasid's point of view is FAQ on Hasidism)

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.

-- -@-:

A most excellant link you have provided. I have bookmarked it for future use. I have been saying on many threads over the last month that christianity is based on mythology. THanks for providing the link I did not have time to research.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 25, 2000.

Kermit:

Allow me to clarify, somewhat. I can see that you have convinced yourself that Christianity is a fraud, and I doubt I can convince you otherwise, online. So be it.

The watchtower society is made up of Jehovah's Witness's, who claim faith in a different Jesus than the bible. Since the word "christian" means "Christ won", those who follow a different Jesus, and therefor a different gospel, cannot be called Christians.

If you don't want to read "Evidence" then don't. Try reading the Inspired Word of God, the Bible. Pray and ask Him to reveal Himself to you, and he will.

Really bummed that I don't have time for a more lengthy discussion,

-- B. Informed (or@be.left.out), April 25, 2000.

B-

Why do you assume that I haven't read the Bible? Reading the Bible creates more atheists than anything. Most atheists are ex- Christians. Most of the rest of the country thinks that Christians and atheists both take religion too seriously.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.

well Kerm, what can I say? Just reading the Bible doesn't help much if you are not seeking God. His Word does have the effect of driving some away, while drawing others to himself. The word of God is alive and sharper than any two edged sword....it speaks spiritual truths in spiritual words. Those not BornAgain cannot understand.

How bad do you want to know the truth? If you persue a lie long enough, God promises a powerful delusion so that you WILL believe the lie, and never know the truth (2Thess 2:10-12)

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. "

-- Bummer (for@some.but.oh.well), April 25, 2000.

BTW Kerm, you might want to consider the rebuttal of "jurys" nonsense.

Found Here

* As of yet - Lowder has NOT sufficiently addressed the intended purpose of ETDAV as indicated by its author and the instruction manual. He cannot address it, because he cannot answer that objection. His attempts to do so more recently are naught but convoluted sophistry.

* This new introduction is in many ways an improvement - but the fact remains that Jury is a misguided project as it stands. Lowder needs to either expand or change his target base; otherwise, like the shadowboxer, he is beating empty air - and he may one day be very surprised to find the champion of the ring sneaking up behind him to deliver an intellectual knockout punch!

-- B Informed (or@be.left.out), April 25, 2000.

Bummer-

"Just reading the Bible doesn't help much if you are not seeking God."

So what you're saying is, you can't get much out of the Bible unless you already believe it? Sort of useless, isn't it?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 25, 2000.

"Just reading the Bible doesn't help much if you are not seeking God."

Or, reading the Bible doesn't help much if you are not willing to be brainwashed.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.

sigh.

Well, I tried. Some people just don't want to be helped. Ok. Bummer, but nothing I can do about it.

See ya across the chazm,

-- B Informed (or@be.left.out), April 26, 2000.

B Informed, have you noted that the "The Jury Is In" gives a link to the rebuttal by Holding, but that Holding does not give a link to Jury's? That can be construed as intellectual dishonesty, IMO. I could accept that this is an oversight from Holding, but the fact that the Jury's author, Lowder, mentions this on his site, and that Holding still hasn't fixed this oversight, tells me otherwise.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 26, 2000.

Yeah, I too noticed Lowder whines alot about that. Sure sounds like a cry-baby to me, too.

I suppose it could be a policy on IOL, as they are a selictive ISP. Perhaps their software won't allow links to certain websites.

Why not ask Holding yourself. As far as I am concerned Lowder doesn't make enough of a case to bother "debunking" him. He has pre-conceived notions, and he operates only within those parameters.

His loss.

-- B Informed (or@be.left.out), April 26, 2000.

B. Informed,

I do not want to tread too heavily here but you said and I quote:

"The watchtower society is made up of Jehovah's Witness's, who claim faith in a different Jesus than the bible. Since the word "christian" means "Christ won", those who follow a different Jesus, and therefor a different gospel, cannot be called Christians."

I find it hard to believe the JW's claim faith in a "different Jesus", especially since I was one many years ago. They use the SAME BOOK as other "Christian" religions, and Jesus does the SAME THINGS and performs the SAME MIRACLES in the the book they study as the people who like King Jame's version. This is a narrow minded view in my opinion. I find JW's more "Christ-like" than the majority of the "religious right" in modern, jaded America. I have never met a JW that was not a decent, non-selfserving individual. So before you go pointing fingers at something you haven't a clue about, you might want to research the issue. BTW, the JW's research the Bible more in a week than most religions do in a month...

"Yeah, the bozo stuck the entire right foot in his mouth... it was some sight to see... then he put the left one in and remained standing... that's entertainment... ya just don't see stuff like that everyday..." - Canine Chronicle

markin' my territory...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 26, 2000.

Dog, you said,

I find it hard to believe the JW's claim faith in a "different Jesus", especially since I was one many years ago

Dog, I am not a JW, and was told that while they may give fancy titles to Jesus, they believe he was only a special man, and not *God*. Can you comment on this? If it's true, then by my (and in this case I believe I can say MOST people's) definition, they are not really Christians.

Thanks, if you can clear this up, great!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 27, 2000.

Wow - this argument is still going on?

I mispoke - the Christian wasn't "Watchtower", he was "Watchman" group. They seem to be fundamentalists who specialize in warning people about the dangers of "cults" and New Age groups. (www.watchman.org -too tired to hotlink.)

B - I am sure the reason the Christians do not provide links to Lowder has nothing to do with "their software won't allow links to certain websites." Links are basic HTML. They just don't want their readers to know that belief is not required. Many people cling to beliefs because they don't think there is an option.

But I don't know why you pointed me at the link to Holding - his point seems to be that Evidence that Demands a Verdict is not a very good work of Christian scholarship, and that Lowder is shooting at a straw man.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), April 27, 2000.

Elian the alien is gonna pray for all of ya.

-- Elian Clone #123 (whateversanoying@news.com), April 27, 2000.