My wife and I long to raise our children in the country, but we are chicken! We live in one of the most expensive areas of the country and it is hard for us to invasion the cost of living elsewhere. My wife and are frugal... We have been following Your Money or Your Life plan for 3 years. We have become frugal enough for my wife to stay home and raise the children in a two-income area. However, our monthly expenses still average $3,000 a month!

If you moved away from the sidewalks how much do you need to get by? And what are some basic prices of things in your area? Gas here is $1.90 a gallon. And if you need a litte extra what do you do to earn it?

Thanks

-- Lorin Mumaw (netorcs@pacbell.net), April 20, 2000

Answers

It sounds like you have made a good first step, in learning to be frugal. The second step would be having enough of a cash stake to purchase your new home with as little debt as possible. Or, as we plan to, buy land and more or less camp out while building a pay-as- you-go home. If you are used to 'city living' that could be difficult to do, though not impossible -- and children love an adventure like that!! :-) (It's mom who has the hardest time with it, usually, and for good reason.) Okay, how much do you need to get by? That depends on how much you spend!!! There are a couple of people on this forum who have mentioned living with reasonable comfort on $7500-$8000/year cash income. I know a couple in town who live on less than $10,000 per year -- their wants are small, but they don't lack for anything. Check out land prices around the country, and the property taxes (and the other taxes, though income taxes won't hurt too much if you don't earn much, and sales taxes only bite when you buy things). Here where I am, which is also an expensive part of the country in many respects, gas is about $1.37-$1.45/gal. right now. It has slowly been falling. But land prices are high, house prices are higher, and property taxes are among the highest in the nation. There are definitely cheaper places to live than New England. As far as work in a rural area, if you are willing to do whatever is offered, and not be too picky about your wages, you shouldn't have much trouble finding work most places. If you or your wife has a medical background (nursing, etc.) you will be in demand most places. You do have to consider how far you are willing to drive to work, though I suppose an hour commuting on country roads wouldn't be as bad as an hour commuting through city traffic. Food and clothing prices don't vary a great deal across the country, if you compare similar types of stores (as in, compare Shop'n'Save to Safeway, not to a gourmet market, or, don't compare Nieman & Marcus to Walmart -- I hope that wasn't too confusing -- sorry). What you need to do is 1. start assembling your cash stake. If you have equity in your present house that will help. 2. take a road trip, skip the freeways and the cities, go to areas where you think you might like to live, and talk to people. Line up some visits to people who are living the way you think you'd like to live and go see what it's really like, and figure out if you could do it. Go for it - - you might not like it -- you might fail -- but you might love it, and you just might do exceedingly well -- and if you stay where you are, you'll never know!! :-) Keep in touch, and get expert advice BEFORE you do ANYTHING irrevocable.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 20, 2000.

It depends greatly upon what you mean when you say "get by".It will amaze you when you find what you DON'T need..at all.What is it about country living that attracts you to the idea??? There are varying degrees of being self-sustaining.Some folks are thrilled with the idea of total self-sufficiency, and I mean total.Others are interested in being "mostly" self-sufficient, e.g. grow and can your own veggies but buy your meat at the market..have a well, but use town electric..you get the idea.I believe it is imperative to first discover how self-sufficient you REALLY want to be, and then plan accordingly.It is more than possible to live in rural America, pay very low taxes,grow your own food, barter with neighbors for meat that they raise,sew the kids and your clothes,pay off your mortgage in your lifetime, and be a happy camper.If you are a nuclear physicist it's harder to accept a low paying job out of your field, but if you really want rural America, you can have it and do quite well.(I'm not picking on physicists,just using them as a non-rural profession).If you need to work and can have a job within commuting distance, that's good too.Truly depends upon what DO you want and why.Land prices aren't going to get cheaper...once you decide , then take some long trips...be adventurous..South Central Missouri is loaded with great land for unbelievable low taxes, same with North and South Dakota,Southern Iowa,Arkansas, upstate Maine (terrific !!!!).The biggest problem with all of these great places with low taxes is employment.Search your souls and then search for your location...good luck!

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), April 20, 2000.

It's also going to depend on how old your children are. It seems to be harder for teens and pre-teens to adapt to country living (after being a city kid) than for the younger ones. I speak from 21 years experience as a rural school bus driver.{ That, by the way, is an excellent job for homesteaders.} It can also be hard on the person who stays home all the time unless that person is committed to country living.

You already have the finance situation under control.Make lists. Decide what you need; what you would like to have, animals,orchard, etc.; where you would like to be; then start looking. It doesn't cost anything to look. See how much things cost where you want to be.Check out zoning, taxes, community, etc. Check out jobs and salaries. Starting out with no income isn't realistic unless you are independently wealthy. You won't be committed to anything by looking and you'll have a lot of fun. With good information you will have nothing to fear.

-- Peg (wildwoodfarms@hushmail.com), April 20, 2000.

How much do we need to get by? Well, our rent is $815 a month for 10 acres and house, so we need $1200 to "get by". However, we (mostly husband) do not want to just "get by". Have you ever been there? It sucks! Theres a big difference between getting by and living frugally, which is what we do. I think unless your house payment is enormous you would be able to cut your expenses, but you would have to go without things you might be using now, like food. (Just kidding) These are some of the things we do without in order to live frugally: garbage service, cable TV, TVguide or magazine subscriptions (except Countryside, of course), health insurance, call waiting or caller ID, new clothes, books, or anything else that can be purchased used, including cars, prepackaged or convienience foods, videos or CD's, video games, extravagant gifts ($10.00 limit per person) soft drinks, ice cream, Happy Meals, lessons for the kids,cellular phones, gym memberships and the list goes on. Hopefully I can find a good free ISP and them I'll dump AOL for $21.95 a month.The point is, so many of the little things that cost 3 or 10 dollars a month start adding up when you have so many of them. If you want to try REALLY cutting back for a month, dont buy anything that you cant eat. We are in a rural area of Central Oregon, land is outrageous, gas is $1.69 a gallon, but Oregon has no sales tax so thats a plus. Our grocery bill runs $50 a week (theres 5 of us), we raise almost none of our food and we're fat, we eat well! This is definately a two income area but I stay home with the kids, you can do it if you're willing to stop spending and STAY AWAY FROM WAL-MART. I think the suggestions to look around are great. We could live a very "homestead" lifestyle here since we're out in the country, but we're 6 miles from town, my husband has a great job, we have electricity and all other conveniences but we could also grow all our own food if we wanted to (I'm working on it!)Moving to the country is not all or nothing. You might find a great "in between" place while you build skills and confidence and figure out what you really want to do. Whatever you decide, best of luck and GO FOR IT! If you're not happy where you are you have nothing to lose.

-- Julie (juliecapasso@aol.com), April 20, 2000.

Julie: I want your secret! How do you feed 5 on $50.00 per week and not grow any of your own food? You should write a book! Seriously, that is pretty low, do you have some special recipes or tips to share? Does that include cleaning supplies and paper goods? I think I spend that much for three of us, and we do grow all our own veggies. Jan B

-- Jan B (Janice12@aol.com), April 20, 2000.

Lorin, you didn't say how far you would consider moving. Here in eastern Kansas gas is around $1.28 gal. Property taxes are low compared to alot of places. State sales tax is 4.9% Car tags are expensive. Car insurance is lower because the state has "No fault". Our expenses are about $1850 a month but that doesn't include rent/mortgage because we live in a parsonage. Almost no one in the community makes $3000 a month.

Employment depends on what is available in each community. For a little extra money you can drive a school bus, subsitute teach, work part-time in a local shop, help out farmers during harvest.

Do some research on an area you would like to live. Search the web for newspapers from that area. Our's is the Topeka Capital Journal. Write to a local Chamber of Commerce, they usually have a visitor packet. When you have the area narrowed down plan a trip (a week would be best)and explore the surrounding countryside. Good luck and keep us posted. We want to know how you make out!

-- Vaughn (vdcjm5@juno.com), April 20, 2000.

O.k. here's another plug for N.D.!!! Rural electric is fairly high but land prices are reasonable (3or4 bdrms on 10acres in $50, to $60, range)and taxes are low. As mentioned above,the everyday stuff is about average every where. If you Nursing homes ALWAYS need CNA's and they will train you. Our unemployment is only 2 to 3% but jobs are in the $5 to $7 range. We bought a MAJOR fixer upper. I worked at $6.50 an hr. and my husband worked on the house. We own the place outright. My only debt to the bank is the loan I took for my sheep, fence, and large items I was to impatiant to wait for(not a big debt.) Anyway, they are thrilled to have new people here! Especially kids! Just a thought.

-- Novina West (lamb@stellarnet.com), April 21, 2000.

One of my greatest regrets is waiting till we had our rural prop. paid for. Raised kids in town while paying off this small farm. They as well as us would have been far better off living here all along. But we have two grand kids who now live here & love this place as much as us. Such a real joy seeing them eagerly learning to care for cattle, chickens, & the other things raised here. So, what do you want for your kids? The Gang on the corner or the gang at the 4H & FFA clubs? Learn to make a zip gun from motor cycle spokes or make jelly for the old folks who have no one to see to themselves?

-- Okie-Dokie (www.tommycflinstone@aol.com), April 22, 2000.

Lorin ~ there are many, many answers to your questions. First, I have to side with the wise person (I'm not going to look it up!) who said we should always indicate our state or area whwn posting a question. I am in Maine, and my advice may be of litle use if you are in Arizona driving a mint LaSalle! If you have no idea what I am talking about, there is a very high probability you are younger than I. So where are you? Lifestyle. What are YOUR needs? I remember a conversation with a classmate at a reunion (I go, you should too. - it's a blast if you don't get self concious!) who complained about his VERY high income and how it wasn't nearly enough. He was paying more for an apartment per month than we MAKE in a month! We don't go out to dinner very often because the chow is better here anyway, as attested to by the friends who like our fare better. I do not buy clothes that say "Tommy Stinkfinger" on them, like some idiots do. I buy 3 pairs of shoes on sale, because "they won't go bad". So dealing with lesser income can be rather easily overcome. Now. How primitive are you, and I don't mean that in a derrogatory sense. Can you raise and butcher animals? Hunt? Pluck innocent tomatoes from the bosom of the mother plant? Subject non-combative beans to the temperatures of the canner or freezer? And do you want to do these things anyway? I hunt. I raise and prepare (Isn't that a nice word? - I'm going to "prepare you"! Well, golly, he's going to teach me how to bat left-handed!), the chickens. Turkeys I have done by my butcher, as well as the pigs. But the garden is mine to put by. Slowly! And I would approach in stages. Pick an area and RENT. Find out if you really like the area, unless you fall in the septic tank and come out with a formula that will make Chanel #5 seem repulsive, as Lesley did. But go for it and enjoy. Just don't burn bridges! GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@mix-net.net), April 23, 2000.

Thanks,Brad.You and Maggie will still be welcome to bask in the POOL !

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), April 23, 2000.

You have two choices. Jump off the cliff blindfolded and see where you land or develop a plan. Since I am a methodical planner by nature, I would opt for the second choice. Sit down with your wife and decide what part of the country would you consider. In other words, are there certain temperature extremes you do not want to live with? Then go on line to www.unitedcountry.com. This is a real estate web site that concentrates on rural/farm properties. Pick the state you want and then the city and you will be able to see what the cost of real estate is in a particular area. You can also put in parameters like price range, number of acres, etc. and pick anywere in the U.S. and it will show you those properties as well. Then once you find a part of the country that you think might work, find out more about the jobs, the cost of living, the schools, etc. whatever is important to you. Talk to some of us that might already live in that area who can give you the pros and cons. Then, before you leap, take a vacation in that area to see for yourself. Once you know where you want to go, if you have to work, I would apply for a job first and then move. If you aren't worried about finding a job, then go for it. You may want to rent in the area before you buy so you can have more time to find just the right spot. It is also easier to change your mind after you are there if you are only renting. Meanwhile, hone your skills now where you are on canning, growing a garden, etc. This will help you decide if it is for you or not. Good luck.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), April 25, 2000.

Just a couple of comments -- I've been using UnitedCountry in my research, and it has a shortcoming -- they don't cover a couple of the states that are on my list of places to consider! Does anyone know of another major on-line realtor that specializes in rural property (especially cheap rural property!) Also, if your church is an important part of your life, you might want to try to find a good church in the general area you are considering before you decide on anything else. Re: the suggestion to try homesteading skills where they are, that is very wise, but my son-in-law, who was raised in a suburb in Southern Cal., has had to overcome some strange prejudices. Evidently where he grew up, people did NOT hang their clothes out on a line to dry, they did NOT have vegetable gardens, etc. !! I've had to chuckle at it, but if the neighbors would be seriously offended, it might be better to wait!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 25, 2000.

Or better yet, is there any way to tap into the MLS listings nationwide without going to a realtor's office??

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 25, 2000.

Hi,

Not much to add except, look South. Take a hard look at Alabama and Georgia. Climate is good and the cost of living is generally lower than other parts of the US. There are problems (as with any area) but ignore the stereotypes, we're all pretty much normal people down here. If you have technical skills, there are a couple of specific areas I could suggest.

If you decide on a couple of particular places, order their telephone books ($25-30 each). With a phone book you can really tell what is available in an area; gives you good insight.

Gas here is 1.50/1.60, FWIW.

j

-- j (jw_hsv@yahoo.com), April 25, 2000.

O.K. here I go again. Upstate N.Y.There was just 85A for around $30,000 I can't remember exactly.Some of the above prices seem high to me.Ther is lots of land for sale , schools are pretty good and there is work .Are you skilled labor ?Even better .GM has a plant Reynolds and Alcoa metals , Mead paper mill ,APC papermill ,lots of good colleges and several hospital.THis does not include the smaller places to work .I would try to not only look with large Real-estate agents , but also some small ones which may have lots of listings .Some old timers will only do buisness with people they know .Good luck in your search.

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), April 25, 2000.

Try West Virginia. 1-800-call-wva.

-- Anne (Marshwiggle2@aol.com), April 25, 2000.

We too were afraid of the big move for several reasons :I had dreamed of being on a farm since I was little,would it be what I dreamed of ?, Hubby didn't have a job would we make it , what about the kids adjusting ? What about all the work that needed to be done ,the heat ,water ,electricity !I also felt bad for moving away from my family.Do I regret it you bet , I regret waiting so darn long to move !I still miss family but we visit often .Yes there is still lots of work to do , hubby has a job , the kids are fine, we even have a brand new baby ,and cows,chickens,pigs ,dogs, cats ,and goats what else could one want !

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), April 26, 2000.

really, if you want to do it, just do it! find a small place, a couple of acres, and plan to live there for a couple of years with some chickens and gardens.see if you like fresh air and hard work. develope some of the skills you would need out in the country. you should be able to find a place close enough to the city that you can keep your job. then, when you see how much better your life could be if you moved even further out, you'll have some of the skills you'll need to get by....if you get the kids interested in having some chickens or rabbits, tree-houses and snow forts, they'll forget about missing their old sidewalks pretty quick.... best of luck, john

-- john houser (farmrjon@juno.com), April 27, 2000.