OT-I think, therefore I am.

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Do you think this is true?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 19, 2000

Answers

Yes.

-- Pat (-@still.here), April 19, 2000.

I think not.

-- Squirrel Hunter (nuts@upina.cellrelaytower), April 19, 2000.

Maybe.

-- Pat (-@still.here), April 19, 2000.

Subject: OT-I think, therefore I am.

Do you think this is true?

Hmmm.... The statement that you think implies that you are aware of yourself.... Does that mean you are real?

I don't know about you, but I think I am, or I think I must be :-)

Are you by chance listening to The Moody Blues?

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 19, 2000.


No. Not the Moody Blues. no music.

Just having a little fun; but how do I know that this is not all a dream we dreamed long ago?

Are any of you real, or are you characters in the dream of a larger sentient being?

Who am I, really? I believe that we never truly know who we are- Although it would be pretty hard to prove I do not exist(chuckle), and is equally hard to prove who I am-I bring to self-perception all of my shadows from the past-my successes, my failures, and all that has happened to me shapes who I think I am.

There is an old psychological construct, known as Johari's Window(I will look up a link if the spirit moves me), which posits four quadrants of knowledge of the self. In one quadrant is what we know about ourselves and other people know. In another quandrant is what we know about ourselves and nobody else knows. In the third quadrant is what other people know about us that we do not know. And lastly, there is a window for what neither ourselves or others know about us yet.

By drawing the boxes to show the realtive size we think these quadrants are(for example, if you think you are an "open book", the first window would be large-if you are very secretive, the second window will be large) we can get an interesting look at ourselves, and input from a therapist as to how "accurate" our assessment is.

What I think is interesting about this, is that there are two quandrants in which there is information about ourselves that we do not know; I think, therefore I am, BUT what I think is not complete- If I do not know exactly who I am, do I really exist?

What exists is different from the construct I have of myself. I will never know the true I.

That true I is my infinte soul.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.



I think I exist. Whether or not you do depends on how crazy I am.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2000.


Frank:

that's funny !!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.


FS, Double up your fist and sock yourself in the nose..... do a good job of it and then ask me if you are real.

There are four windows... you can not hit yourself.... you can pull the punch and have tears running out of your eyes..... you can give yourself a bloody nose..... you can drive a sliver of bone into your brain.

Theses are all choices... are they are real?

You are what you perceive, and you live or die by that perception. and the choices you make in life, that's the bottom line.

Are we real?...... sure feels like it :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 20, 2000.


I take this as a question of conciousness...

I think that my waking concious is satisfied by I think therefore I am. However, my subconcious is more primal... along the lines of I am therfore I think. Love those dream exercises.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 20, 2000.


Does a person exist if no one knows them? (sort of a tree-in-the-forest thing)

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 20, 2000.


If you think you think you are.

If you whack yourself a real good one in the head with a hammer and you bleed profusely,you know.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


Yup..... hurts like hell :-)

Lars, if a tree fell on you, and you were the only person to experiance it..... would you still be dead?

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 20, 2000.


If you post to the SLEZ board and you are deleted before your message posts did your words ever really exist?

Does it diminish your personality if it is surpressed?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


Well, I think I look like Charlize Theron. I think I have an IQ of 175. I think I have $28 million in the bank. Therefore, I'm delusional.

-- Gia (laureltree@hotmail.com), April 20, 2000.

Netghost,

You reminded me of a philosophy thing that never did make sense to me. (a long time ago one of my professors came up with this, not me) A live cat is sealed in an airtight box and buried. Later, is it dead? You don't really know, but my point is so what? You can assume so can't you?

I guess I'm a simpleton, but the profoundness of it eludes me.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2000.



FutureShock - you'll never know the true *I* just as two numbers added together continuously will never reach infinity. But it's the experience of the ride that makes all the difference, yes? After all, we're not humans having a spiritual experience but spirits having a human experience. May as well make the best of it!

Frank/Someone - you're referring to Schroedinger's Cat...that cat is put into a box with a radioactive isotope. It *might* kill the cat, it might not...you don't know which possibility is true until you open the box to witness the cat's state. So it is only through observation and experience that you can know the truth. Prior to that, the cat is neither alive or dead. Perhaps the same can be said for people caught in Johari's Window. lol

However, one must now ask whether the observation

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.


...is live or Memorex?

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

If a man ventures an opinion in the forest, and there's no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?

-- (Miss Ann@th.rope), April 20, 2000.

"we're not humans having a spiritual experience but spirits having a human experience."

I have never thought about it like that,but find it quite intriguing and will commit to permanent storage. Thanks LunaC.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.


capnfun - I wish I could claim title to that particular witticism but I believe Wayne Dyer should be given the credit.

And I - like you - was immediately attracted to the concept when I first hear it too. It makes SO much sense, doesn't it?

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.


It allmost makes too much sense!

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 20, 2000.

"... we are spirits having a human experience."

Wow. I could feel my head rearranging ideas after I read this.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 20, 2000.


Someone once told me...

If you want to know what Spirit is close your eyes and with your minds eye picture a cat. That is Spirit.

-- Debra (Iwantto@know.com), April 20, 2000.


Gia,

If you find out you're NOT delusional, have your people ask my psychiatrist if it's OK if we do lunch. Or maybe just skip to dessert.

-- Chicken Little (panic@forthebirds.net), April 20, 2000.


I think I am, therefore I must be. Or so I thought until I began thinking about it.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 20, 2000.

spirits having a 'human experience', WOW. In the big dressing room of life?

Luna, I like that, capn, if I pass you the hammer will you give it to a 'certain someone' for me, so He can try it??????

ROFLMAO

have a 'fun' day.....

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 20, 2000.


Before I start my responses, here is a url for a description of Johari's window: http://sol.brunel.ac.uk/~jarvis/bola/communications/johari.html

LunaC:

It IS the experience of the ride that makes all the difference! Wayne Dyer is one of my favorite authors; I always turn to his writings when I feel blocked in my personal growth. Great stuff.

CapnFun and Netghost(where have you been the last few days?):

In your examples it is the PHYSICAL body which suffers injury- certainly there is an emotional response to that, and hopefully an experience from which we learn-that we do not put our hand on a hot stove again-but is the I that I am changed at all? Have you ever had dreams that seemed so real you were not quite sure they were not dreams? Have you not felt pain in a dream? Pleasure? Are these dream experiences any less real than our waking experiences?

Do we go anywhere when we dream? Are dreams simply the detritus of the day being worked over in our memory? If so, why do so many humans experience the same dream symbols?

I do not know any of the answers, for sure. Keeping an open mind allows me to discover wonderful things. Hey, I may just be a mass of blood and bones, with biochemical reactions which cause thinking, and when the heart stops, I stop, and all of this was just mental masturbation. Today I do not think this is true. BUT

Today's truth can often become tomorrow's bullshit! There are some things I believed three years ago that I laugh about today. All of this is a wonderful journey, and I wish all a good day.

As far as the hammer and fist, I suggest that none of you try this at home!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.


Yesterday was movie rental day for me. I stopped by Blockbuster and rented The Matrix, and purchased a used copy of The Thirteenth Floor.

I recommend both for those who want a glimpse of a couple of possible futures. Both deal with computer generated simulated reality.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 20, 2000.


Future Shock:

The more you learn about out there the more you will know about yourself, because it is all the same thing.

One of the spiritual exercises I like to engage in from time to time is to try to mentally picture my exact boundaries -- just where does the furthest particle of myself end? And then I try to solve the problem of why that particle is part of me but the next particle of the universe further out is not me.

This meditation always raises a variety of interesting thoughts. I have never yet come to a conclusion that makes sense from every angle. That's what makes it such a good question!

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 20, 2000.


You are irreplaceable because you are you.

-- I.thought.therefore.I.was (Descarte@iforget.ed), April 20, 2000.

"Where do we go when we dream?" To one of those alternate dimensions that exist simultaneously to ours.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

Brian-

Excellant meditation. I will take this one up over the weekend. I may have a response to some of your other thoughts later.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.


Brian, You have some extra time on your hands it appears....

To the rest of you, If a tree in the forest falls on a mime, is there any sound?

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 20, 2000.


>> Brian, You have some extra time on your hands it appears.... <<

FactFinder, I often sit and wonder, if extra time appeared in one's hands (physically) ... what color would it be? This thought has absorbed me for hours... and what makes some kinds of time "extra" time, as opposed to just "ordinary" time?

We could start a voluminous email exchange on just these subjects. OK?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 20, 2000.


To the rest of you, If a tree in the forest falls on a mime, is there any sound?

Of course there is, the only difference is you won't hear the scream :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 20, 2000.


LOL. You'll just see wildly flailing arms and an almost imperceptable "whoosh".

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

LMAO..... are we sick? :-)

On the serious side... shifts happen all around us.. most of the time without our knowing they even have even happened... but just the same they have.

Think of the changes in the world view with the first radio transmissions.... the pony express... TV... the net... did anyone "see" what they would bring?... or the possible ramifications of what sending out "signals" at the speed of light to the rest of the universe?

I think, therefore I am..... :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 20, 2000.


The original question was wether or not Descartes statement was true or false.

As I have seen, and as I believe, this is not really a true OR false statement. I believe it all depends on the level of consciousness you are experiencing.

For most folk, this statement is always true; they only know that they think, and because they think they can conclude THEY ARE.

At another level, the statement I AM therefore I think, is true-The eternal soul, trapped in "time" with a particular set of thoughts- this soul, in essence, being the thinker of the thoughts.

I am not what you think, and only half of what I think, and there are parts of myself I will not rediscover in this incarnation.

The moral of the story is there is no body of thought, no religion, no spiritual discipline, no politcal theory, no philosophy, and no science that can describe exactly who I am.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 21, 2000.


FS...

The moral of the story is there is no body of thought, no religion, no spiritual discipline, no politcal theory, no philosophy, and no science that can describe exactly who I am.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 21, 2000.

This is new to you?... each person is unique in the way they see and look at the world... nothing new and different...it's just the first time for all of us :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), April 21, 2000.


Y'all are a figment of my imagination. Y'all will disapear with a click of my mouse.

-- Old TB2K Forum Regular (freespeech@yahoo.com), April 21, 2000.

Brian,

If time was a physical thing one could hold in there hands, I'd see it as a soft, warm, blue sphere about 8 inches in diameter.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000.


Frank,

"If time was a physical thing one could hold in their hands,"

"I'd see it as truly infite blanket that would smother us all in our sleep and we would all wake up laughing"

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 21, 2000.


Cap'n,

Don't know if you were joking or serious, but that's pretty interesting. I'll have to think about it for a bit.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000.


Frank,

Though it pretty much came to me on the fly I was quite serious.

To me it is obvious that time is infinite, and if nothing else, is made up billions of event occuring simultaneously(sp?) thus it to me is thick,with no boundaries.

But I must admit that while I enjoy "time" as an esoteric subject,I still am of the belief that it is a straight or wavy continuum with none of the looping or string theory hypothosies holding much weight, IMHO.

It is all most like it too simple to waste that much time on.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 21, 2000.


If you thought that you thought that you knew that you know, would you think that you think that it is absolutely so.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 21, 2000.

"Every time a thought is born, you are born. When the thought is gone, you are gone. But the "you" does not let the thought go, and what gives continuity to this "you" is thinking. Actually there's no permanent entity in you, no totality of all your thoughts and experiences. You think that there is "somebody" who is feeling your feelings - that's the illusion. I can say it is an illusion but it is not an illusion to you." -U.G. Krishnamurti

-- Debra (IthinkthereforeI@continue.com), April 21, 2000.

Netghost:

No. This is not new to me. But take a look around-take a look at the positions people on this board take, and you will see quickly that most people operate from a position in which this is not acknowledged.

OldTB2K Regular:

LOL.

Debra:

Krishnamurti is one of my favorites. I have a daily reading from him bookmarked. Would you like the link?? I can post it when I get home.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 21, 2000.


"But the "you" does not let the thought go, and what gives continuity to this "you" is thinking. Actually there's no permanent entity in you, no totality of all your thoughts and experiences."

If you ponder for a moment this thought, then add to it the fact that all of the cells in one's body die off and are replaced at regular intervals, one truly becomes a new entitity at regular intervals.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 21, 2000.


Ann, you said,

"all of the cells in one's body die off and are replaced at regular intervals,"

This is true for some things such as your skin or lining of the G.I. tract, but in other organs (the central nervous system's neurons for example) the cells you have are yours for life.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000.


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