I'm serious, Cherri started a thread try to relate astrology with y2k. The discussion was mostly flames except for a comment about rocks in space.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002zLp

As a technologist I never gave astrology a second though until I got involved, and the end result was I concluded that it is more than coincidence. It's a long story, but one that changed this objectivist.

So.... I ask you is it possible the gravitational footprint that earth orbits through affects us?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 18, 2000

Answers

How much does the Earth's gravity change from day to day?

Why would any change that did occur affect one person differently than anyone else?

Think it's baloney,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 19, 2000.

Will - With everything being energy, how could it not? Chaos Theory and the Butterfly Effect immediately come to mind as examples.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 19, 2000.

Frank,

ummm...The earth's gravity is not the issue it's the other bodies in the solar system that are tracked by astrology.

In answer to your second question I must ask you, do you realize the earth travels through space as it orbits the sun? ie. we are born into different positions in space? hmmm?

If you think its bologna then perhaps it is a case of what you think is what you get.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 19, 2000.

LunaC

Yes energy is involved, but honestly it seems as though the influence of other bodies is more straightforward than chaos. Sometimes it seems more like a magnetic flux that varies as we travel through.

Those Atlantians knew all about this I bet.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 19, 2000.

Ouch! I just sat on a cusp!

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 19, 2000.

This is an ignorant generation. God's Word clearly forbids all psychic/astrological monkeying around. It even says that in 'The Last Days' one of the sins the people refuse to repent from in the Tribulation Period is "They STILL refused to repent from their sorceries."

GET IT! We are coming close to the End of Time when Jesus returns and the Great Tribulation begins.. Thats why we're seeing this abomination of psychic phenomonon. Those indulging in this sin will not see that it is sin but will be punished by God nevertheless.

-- Paul (skypilot99@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

"Gravity" is not really the isolated force that it appears to be, but an illusion created by the bending of space.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 19, 2000.

Ya'll been drinkin', eh?

-- (get @real. net), April 19, 2000.

I should have expected that.

Relativity link

General relativity, proposed in 1916, applies to accelerated frames of reference (gravity). It describes gravitation not as a force but as a bending in four dimensional space-time. The description of gravity becomes a four dimensional geometry problem. General relativity is based on the principle of equivalence. This principle explains the equivalence of inertial and gravitational masses.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 19, 2000.

Will: maybe you need to tell your long story.

The "positions" of the planets describe cycles. They tell a story in archetypal fashion of human consciousness. I do not believe in looking at it in terms of physical forces; but with any human observation skills you can find patterns of behavior, to wit, that morning children are different than evening children, that behavior indeed DOES change with the phases of the moon, and even moreso around an eclipse.

In case anyone has been skipping my posts I will say it again; Humans have always told stories, created mythologies and religions, to describe the inner drama that we all have. We all want to be heros, or redeemers, or warriors, or fantastic lovers, to a degree, and our stories have been a way to communicate the conflicts within. The dichotomy of good and evil, obviously something we all share, has been desribed in diffrerent ways as God and the Devil. The Good and the evil are part of our inner nature, an intrinsic conflict, and the creation of A god(s) and demon(s) give expression to that conflict.

The motions of the heavenly bodies are constant; we know the amount of time it takes each planet to circuit the sun. Astrology creates a way to measure cycles, the passage of time, and since we are all connected(our bodies are not discrete; we are all part of the same force field, and we are never truly seperate) we all have the same conflicts at a fundamental level.

Frank: Whatever works for you works for you. It is just one less avenue you can use in understanding yourself, and that is your choice.

Paul: your absolutely nuts. You have been corrupting threads all over the place the last few days with your condemning judgements. Give it up, freak. I am not a sorcerer; LunaC is not a sorcerer. We are simply fellows along the spiritual path who have found usefulness in one of the oldest spiritual disciplines known to humankind."I fart in your general direction. Your kind makes me want to puke.".

How are you treating people today, Paul. What are you doing today to help another human being. Have you any idea the good that most astrologers do? Their are bad apples in all areas of life, and in particular there are many examples of bad apples among fundamentalist preachers. So, my friend, I will pray for you-no, I will cast a spell over you so that you will see the light of my dark ways!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 19, 2000.

Just as a curved Earth was unconceivable to most people a few hundred years ago, so today is a warped spacetime, writhing with wormholes, anti-casual events and non-local effects.

-- (@ .), April 19, 2000.

Will, you said,

"Frank,

ummm...The earth's gravity is not the issue it's the other bodies in the solar system that are tracked by astrology. "

My point would be that we are much more affected by the gravitational pull of the earth (close) than we would by any net effect of that produced by the stars (far away) as their effect should be falling off with the square of the distance from them.

I believe in God. That's faith. Claiming astrology is in some way reproducible or scientific is gar-bage.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 19, 2000.

Don't know why but astrology does seem to work, anyone here agree, I think my birthchart indications are a remarkably accurate picture of my character traits, whether they be good bad or indifferent.

-- richard (richard.dale@onion.com), April 19, 2000.

It's been a while and I will have to look for a reference, but it is true that gravitational forces between bodies in space have an effect on each other.

The tides are physically effected by the position of the moon, it is no coincidence that womens' bodies (generally) cycle in the same 28 day cycle that the moon does.

Most emergency rooms experience an influx of uncommon patients and more babies are born during the full moon.

There must be a reason for people backing away from me when I tell them I am a tripple Gemini.... But then, 25 years ago when I would tell a man I worked on computers, they would look at me differently and back away too :o0

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 19, 2000.

Frank:

Just so we are clear on this, I am not claiming that astrology is science; I can say that it is reproducible; I suspect you used this term as it is inherent in the scientific method. We can look at historical charts and show without a doubt that certain types of events happened during certain planetary cycles-There is no question about this. We will just agree to disagree.

I WILL say that I have FAITH in astrology, but I do not use it as a form of research; I do not have an organized religion precisely because at some point, in order to keep THAT faith I have to close my mind to certain solutions to problems in my life and the world as a whole. I avoid anything which limits the scope of pursuit of the truth. If I find it in Mein Kampf or if I find it in a cereal commercial, it does not matter; What is important in science is to search and research, always with an open mind. To say definatively that the paranormal or "occult" as some would call it is hogwash is to determine results before any system of experimentation could be defined.

Richard: yes

Cherri: Triple Gemini? Sun, Moon, ascendant???

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 19, 2000.

Got any cites for the alleged proofs of astrology? I don't think so. James Randi will give you a million bucks if you can produce proof.

Of course astrology describes your personality. Any astrological profile will fit anyone.

If you want to be spiritual, go to the source. Don't muck around with frauds like (actually recently-invented) astology.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), April 19, 2000.

Paul says, "God's Word clearly forbids all psychic/astrological monkeying around."

Sorry, Paul, but god's word IS psychic/astrological monkeying around."

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 19, 2000.

FutureShock, You said,

"We will just agree to disagree."

I agree. :-) Personally, I just have real trouble with things that I consider to be pseudoscience (as opposed to science or religion). But if it works for you, great. I'm sure you could say at least the same for any "proof" of religion I could come up with.

You also said,

"I do not have an organized religion precisely because at some point, in order to keep THAT faith I have to close my mind to certain solutions to problems in my life and the world as a whole"

This confuses me. I don't mean to be antagonistic here (really) but could you give me an example where faith in your religion would have forced you to close your mind to the solution to a problem?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 19, 2000.

I don't want to misrepresent astrology. I don't understand it; I was never interested enough to check into it. But I am curious---does everyone who is born in the exact same place at the exact same time have the exact same chart?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 19, 2000.

Kermit:

Who ever said that I was not going to the source? This is an example of black and white thinking. The use of astrology does not preclude one from prayer, meditation, or any other type of contact with God as I understand it. I am not going to bother to give you the links, Kermit, as I really do not think you have the interest level to read books I would recommend. Your retort was weak and it's intent was to belittle my use of a proven technique(to me) and to somehow say I was ungodly in that astrology is not from the "source". It would be like me saying to you "prove that astrology is not God's work". Everything we experience is from the source-evil, as we see it, comes from the source-there is nothing that is that does not come from the "source".

FranK: How are you? One example of how an organized religion would shut out possible solutions to problems is there are many christian sects which forbid meditation. If I were a christian, I would only be offered one path to redemption, accepting Jesus in a certain way. Ironically enough, as you have seen some people on this and other threads, if I were to be a member of a pentecostal church, I would be forbidden to practice astrology-were not suspected witches burned at the stake by puritans for practising "black magic"?

If I were an orthodox Jew, I would be shunned for reading the new testament, and miss out on all the wonderful spiritual advise it has- I certainly could not quote the new testament during bible studies. Granted, in secret, as a pentecostal I COULD practice astrology, and as an orthodox jew I COULD read the new testament, but chances are I would tow the line because I was dependent on a particular methodology for redemption, and contradicting it would surely bring a curse upon me.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 19, 2000.

Thank you FutureShock... your comments were thoughtful.

Paul I hear the other disciples calling. :)

Frank, the Earth's gravity is a constant for the entire population...get it? Are you a scientist or do you just wave that stuff around?

Thanks to all for a great thread.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 20, 2000.

FutureShock,

Thanks. Now I understand what you mean, if not agree. To me, if one really finds what (as an individual) is "the answer" spiritually, everything else would seem to be a curiosity at best. But then people are different. If you find peace in using astrology, do it.

Will, you said,

"Frank, the Earth's gravity is a constant for the entire population...get it? Are you a scientist or do you just wave that stuff around?

Is it really? Will, let me ask you to do something. Take whatever star you were born under. Go to any scientist (oops, better clarify that, make that scientist trained in mathmatics, physics, or physical or biologic science at an accredited university ((to weed out the aromatherapists calling themselves scientists))) and ask them to show you the relative effect from gravity from "your" stars and from the Earth. Then come back and tell me how much of an effect their gravity has on you. Then extrapolate that to your life.

Get it?

Frank P.S. Actually, this has brought up a great question for me. Is the change in gravity from sea level to a mountain village greater than that caused by the stars? I'll ask around for ya if I get time tomorrow. Who knows, maybe you should plan your horoscope based on your local mountain range. -F

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2000.

Just wondering to myself...how many christians realize that Easter is always scheduled to occur on the first Sunday following the first Full Moon after Spring Solstice? Seems to be an intertwining of religion and the stars, wouldn't you say?

Buy, hey, it's all bunk, right?

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

Future Shock-

Great examples of how organized religion would shut out possible solutions to problems. Very well said about missing out on ALL the wonderful spiritual advise available to us when we close our minds to all "else".

LunaC-

Just wondering to myself...what may of been the effect of the full moon on the mob that crucified Jesus?

-- Debra (piecesofthe@puzzle.com), April 20, 2000.

A hawk in flight,

Is quite a sight,

But a talking hawk you see,

Will bend our space,

And keep a straight face,

As he claims there is no gravity.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 20, 2000.

Ra-

I'd like to give this a try. I can't format it right yet so I'll just put .... between the lines.

A Hawk in flight? .... Yes, is quite a sight! .... And a talking Hawk you see, .... WILL "bend our space" .... but won't keep a straight face .... as he laughs "hee, hee, hee".

-- Debra (lessonstobe@learned.com), April 20, 2000.

Debra - Police, Fire and Hospital personnel will all attest to increased activity during the full moon. Seems like some folks just can't help getting "excitable" around that time.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

LunaC - Sorry, I just had a Virgo attack and felt I had to point out that there IS NO spring solstice. There is a spring EQUINOX - a summer solstice, a winter solstice, yes. But in spring, there is ONLY an equinox

-- Lady Spica (Lady Spica@AOL.com), April 20, 2000.

Lady - I stand corrected. Thanks for cleanin' up after me!

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 20, 2000.

Luna C:

Here's an interesting web site about full moon effects:

http://www.discovery.com/area/skinnyon/skinnyon970620/skinny1.html

It appears that any correlation between full moons and things like hospital admissions and ER visits is pretty weak. OTOH, this is cited so frequently by cops, firefighters, and nurses that it's difficult to dismiss out of hand. Have you seen any studies that seem to back up the full moon hypothesis?

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 20, 2000.

Jim - My dad used to be a fire fighter (and later, up through the ranks, Fire Chief) in Chicago's inner city and I grew up hearing *wild* Full Moon stories, so I'm speaking through his experience. I've encountered studies published through astrological journals (rather than the more mainstream source that you cited) but I don't have any URL's handy to share. sorry.

(Do you by any chance hail from California? There's a Jim Cooke that lives down the street from me.)

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 21, 2000.

LOL! Thanks Deb, guess you got me figured out. I like bending minds, because eventually it expands them. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 21, 2000.

Jim,

Most people in an E.R. don't know whether it's day or night, much less what phase the moon is in. Saying "there's a full moon out tonight" just means "we're taking a lot of hits". Personally, I think that the main effect a full moon would have on the crime rate would be that it would allow more criminals to see at night, thus improving their aim.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2000.

Frank... I'm hoping you understand that we are discussing a hypothesis here. It's the planets and the sun (not "stars") my friend and their effect on the electromagnetic/gravitational spectrums I'm wondering about. Yes gravity varies on earth but the overlay of external influences is the point here.

The moon causes tide and more...when you have that sort of tangible proof about your GOD please present it.

And by the way it's not your birthday that forms you, it's you conception that counts. Your birthday is a consequence of when you were conceived. If you think electromagnetic influences cannot affect conception than please explain why.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 22, 2000.

Will,

"If you think electromagnetic influences cannot affect conception than please explain why.

Well, I think people's personalities are determined in part by their genes (fixed from their parents) and part from their upbringing. What on Earth would make anyone think that elecromagnetic influences would affect someone? If you say they DO have an effect, I'd say it's up to you to prove it.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2000.

I'm not in the mindset for a great debate so I'm throwing this on the table simply as Food For Thought.....

"Well, I think people's personalities are determined in part by their genes (fixed from their parents)"

BODY

" and part from their upbringing."

MIND

"What on Earth would make anyone think that elecromagnetic influences would affect someone?"

Here's where the SPIRIT part comes in:

If energy can neither be created nor destroyed AND God is, was, and ever shall be, THEN energy = god and god = energy. This being the case even the smallest electromagnetic influence (as the Buttefly Effect of the Chaos Theory demonstrates) can have an effect on who/what we have the potential to become.

I'm goin' back to bed now. Have at it, folks!

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 22, 2000.

Lunacy, You said,

"If energy can neither be created nor destroyed AND God is, was, and ever shall be, THEN energy = god and god = energy.

Well, I guess it would depend on your religion. To a theist in general, God *created* the Heavens and the Earth where physical laws like "energy can't be created or destroyed" exist. Therefore, God both supersedes and predates energy as we know it, and is not equal to it.

Again, if you want to say your faith is "astroligion", that's one thing. Calling it science is something else.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2000.

"Again, if you want to say your faith is "astroligion"....."

Never said such a thing. You're making up ridiculous concepts to deflect that you obviously DGI. Never mind. "Spirituality" and interconnectedness are simply beyond the grasp of some people, but thanks for trying.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 22, 2000.

LunaC,

I know, just wanted to see if you REALLY went to bed. Sorry. :-)

But how about the point about God?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2000.

Frank says

" What on Earth would make anyone think that elecromagnetic influences would affect someone? If you say they DO have an effect, I'd say it's up to you to prove it."

People are composed of matter and electromagnetic energy influences matter, any questions? Investigate the Language of Birthdays where people of note are organized by their birthdates. This really is a topic that requires thorough analysis before... err... judgement can be passed. The proof is in the pudding, but if you never have any how will you know?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 23, 2000.

Frank, Frank, Frank, you must keep up with events as they occur - I had a wonderful nap this *afternoon*.....

As for God: I am not a theist but since you think you're such a smart guy perhaps you can identify the philosophic "ism" to which I subscribe based on my comments re: god and energy.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 23, 2000.

Will - Frank is a theist. Debate is futile. His world view doesn't allow for the concepts we propose.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 23, 2000.

LunaC, good name. Thanks for the tip about Frank.

I want to learn more, can you recommend any reading?

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 23, 2000.

LunaC,

I'd like to give it a shot, but there are too many choices for such a general statement "energy = god and god = energy". See the trouble with asking me to guess on this is that for these *alternative philosophies* each practitioner gets to decide for themselves what to believe and what not to. Therefore, you can decide that this statement applies to whatever code you have.

The other problem in asking me to decide is that most practitioners are salad-bar types. They pick and choose what they want, so while you may like this concept from one *philosophy*, that doesn't mean that it's your main belief or what you would necessarily identify yourself as. Do you understand my difficulty?

However, I was told you should always lay your nickel down, so here goes. My bets at this point (without further clarification from you) would be Pantheism (as it seems to be the rage du jour), or something like Buddhism/Taoism.

I'll try again if you can "fill out" your CORE beliefs a bit.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2000.

Will - I'll be happy to oblige: what specifically are you interested in?

Frank - I *am* impressed! However, to consider Pantheism/Buddhism/Taoism to be *alternative philosophies* discounts thousands of years of practice in these traditions. Certainly you didn't mean to intentionally discount them because they differ from your beliefs, did you?

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 23, 2000.

Will - You might find these discussions on "Isms" interesting:

Basic Definitions of Various "Isms"

Pantheism - In Relationship to Theism

Taoism

Theism

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 23, 2000.

Sorry LunaC, I wasn't too clear. I am interested in information that would teach me to do a reading as well as increase general understanding of astrology.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 23, 2000.

Frank my man you should have been still,

Youve gone and awoken the farmer named Will.

Shes a hairdressing fool,

Milking goats from a stool,

Claiming Planets can give me a thrill!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 23, 2000.

LunaC,

First, did I get it right? You also said,

"to consider Pantheism/Buddhism/Taoism to be *alternative philosophies* discounts thousands of years of practice in these traditions. Certainly you didn't mean to intentionally discount them because they differ from your beliefs, did you? "

Well, I guess this is a step up from being a brain-dead theist ;-). Anyway, bizarre as it may sound, I think a great metaphor for religious practice can be found in a scene from The Hobbit by J. Tolkien. When their band needs to cross the mountains, they are told there are many paths, some cross the mountains and some don't. Some that appear easy and appealing are actually maintained by creatures that want to do harm to travellers, and lead to bad ends. There is a road across the mountains, but you must search for it.

I personally believe in *responsibility*. When someone says they have a belief system, but it changes whenever an obstacle arises, I move on. To me, anyone who is always looking for something-for-nothing is seriously misled. OTOH anyone who is willing to *work* for/at their beliefs may have something to offer - if not the truth, at least a way to make me re-evaluate my own beliefs.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2000.

Ra old salt you're probably right

I should have refrained on Saturday night

For Will has awakened

And reason's forsaken

Now darkness will contend with the light.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2000.

Ra

I am not Will continue farming@home if that is what you are thinking.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 23, 2000.

Will - if you're going to broaden your knowledge about astrology I would highly encourage you to have your own birth chart available as a point of reference. There is an excellent free, on-line chart calculation service available to help you in this regard. For accuracy, you should have the exact time of birth (otherwise, just enter "noon").

For an excellent all-round introduction to astrology and it's many branches, "The Practical Astrology" by N. Campion is a good starting point. Any on-line bookstore (amazon.com or Barnes and Noble) should have it.

Or, if you want to get started immediately, try Dr. Z's Crash Course This site will keep you busy for awhile!

Frank - ..."When their band needs to cross the mountains, they are told there are many paths, some cross the mountains and some don't. Some that appear easy and appealing are actually maintained by creatures that want to do harm to travellers, and lead to bad ends. There is a road across the mountains, but you must search for it."

I'd like to belief that you are a kind-hearted, light-spirited person however I can't help but notice a bit of condescension coming from your keyboard. First you suggest that pantheists/buddhists/taoists are "salad bar types" and now it appears that you believe some are looking for the "easy" way by following these traditions. Do you feel superior as a theist because you believe your path is somehow more difficult than others? Just curious.

I also believe not only in Responsibility but in Commitment and Integrity as well. Anything worth doing is worth doing well...half-assed doesn't count! ;-)

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 24, 2000.

Oh yes to the stars I shall look,

Before laying down coin with my book.

Ill let Pluto and Saturn,

Decide my betting pattern,

To the cleaners Ill surely be took!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 24, 2000.

LunaC,

I've answered a couple of your questions now, could you at least say whether I got your "ism" right or not?

You also said,

I can't help but notice a bit of condescension coming from your keyboard. First you suggest that pantheists/buddhists/taoists are "salad bar types" and now it appears that you believe some are looking for the "easy" way by following these traditions. Do you feel superior as a theist because you believe your path is somehow more difficult than others? Just curious.

As far as "condescension", would you say that word would apply to the person who wrote this?

but since you think you're such a smart guy

I would. Also, I wouldn't say *traditional* Buddhists or Taoists are salad-bar types, but would most definitely apply that label to anyone calling themselves a Pantheist, based on my experience with them expressing their views.

And do I feel superior? Not as an individual, but I do feel disdain for what I'd consider junk. And as a general rule, I do try and be honest if nothing else.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 24, 2000.

Frank: "As far as "condescension", would you say that word would apply to the person who wrote this? .... but since you think you're such a smart guy

Yup. No doubt about it...after your smart-ass "astroligion" remark your condescension was reciprocated. What did you expect? That I would allow your arrogance to go unnoticed?

Frank: "I wouldn't say *traditional* Buddhists or Taoists are salad-bar types, but would most definitely apply that label to anyone calling themselves a Pantheist, based on my experience with them expressing their views."

The door of bias swings both ways. Based on *my* experience, I find the One-Way/MY-Way Theists to be small-minded, tedious, repressed and often hypocritical.

Frank: "I do feel disdain for what I'd consider junk."

Frank, I don't know if you're intentionally trying to piss me off but I can see that this discussion is going nowhere. I personally have no desire to engage in a religious pissing contest and will be adjourning from this thread. In the spirit of "to each his own" I wish you well in your beliefs and journey.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), April 24, 2000.

LunaC:

Good move. Would you say there is a lot of saturn in that man's chart? If not, there is definately a capricorn sun, moon, or ascendent.

I have NO RELIGION, I do not believe in s structured system, so according to Frank I am more likely to break laws or treat my in-laws badly.

Please show me the statistics that prove Theists behave better than pantheists. I would LOVE to see that.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 24, 2000.

LunaC,

You still haven't answered whether I got your "ism" right or not. Have you forgotten again? It's too bad you're signing off before I find out the answer. :-(

Or not,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 24, 2000.

FutureShock,

You claimed I said,

so according to Frank I am more likely to break laws or treat my in-laws badly.

Could you cut and paste that in for me? I don't recall saying or even implying it. Correct your own thoughts before starting in on mine.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 24, 2000.

LunaC - Thank you for your insight and the links... very much appreciated.

-- Will (righthere@home.now), April 24, 2000.

Frank:

Unfortunately I do not have the time to find the exact post from which I drew my conclusion. I think it may have been on the Scientific Pantheism thread. I will go on record here that I am not quoting in my post before this one. I have drawn a conclusion based on beliefs you have expressed.

You have repeatedly stated your opposition to belief systems such as pantheism-that there are no moral imperatives. It seems to be your belief that because there are ten commandments and other moral objectives in christianity that it is a more rational choice than Pantheism.

I am not here to ridicule your beliefs. I simply do not agree that any religion is better than any other religion-that any religion has a better moral program than any other.

It is much simpler than that-simply make choices based on love. We do not need an organized religion to teach us that.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 26, 2000.

FS,

I don't mind you ridiculing my beliefs, but PLEASE don't put words in my mouth, that's what I'm objecting to.

On Pantheism, yes, I do believe that a religion should be an objective guide to morality. True, no one can attain perfection, but it gives one something to shoot for, a direction to travel in. My experience with (now this has nothing to do with YOU, just people that I personally know in the "real world") what I associate with "pantheists" are people who are into astrology one week, crystals the next, occult the week after that. People who are searching for an easy answer spiritually, when there is none.

You don't learn math by sleeping on your books, you learn by studying. You don't become a baseball professional by eating powerbars, you improve by practicing. Most importantly, I believe you don't progress spiritually by flitting around to whatever fad is popular, but do so by *applying* yourself.

Again, this is not directed at *you*, and in truth I don't remember if you were in the Sci-Pan crowd or not. It's my opinion of the *pattern of behavior* of what I have seen of the practioners that bothers me.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 27, 2000.

Frank:

Again I apologize if I did not interpret your beliefs properly, giving you the impression I was putting words in your mouth. I mean you no harm.

I am not a sci-pantheist; I am, however, somewhat spiritually promiscuous. I have studied many systems of theology and many systems of thought-Buddhusm, Taoism, Christianity-both traditional and mysticism-I have read many books by many authors, and when I was younger I DID flit from place to place, adhering to one, then the other.

I have found peace in none of them, so today I have a simple belief in the fundamental goodness of the universe-that there is a force for love that runs deep and wide and can overcome all evil. It is a God I understand, who has UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Who ned nothing from me and expects nothing from me-If one is guided by the principle of love, then they will do no harm to others.

We sure to go around and around on some of these threads, don't we Frank?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 28, 2000.

FS,

I like what you said, "I mean you no harm". I interpret that to mean you wish me the best, and likewise I do you.

Believe it or not, I do learn from these threads, which is why I participate in them. If I get too obnoxious at times, say so. Overall, I think hearing others' opinions is a "growth experience" for me, although likely as not I won't agree with them... :-)

Anyway, Best Regards,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 28, 2000.

Frank:

Likewise. While I rarely agree with you, you DO participate here with good decorum. You are not likely to get into a pissing match and resort to name-calling and other flaming techniques. That I appreciate. Have a good weekend.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 28, 2000.

Frank, pulease! Your statement that "My experience with (now this has nothing to do with YOU, just people that I personally know in the "real world") what I associate with "pantheists" are people who are into astrology one week, crystals the next, occult the week after that"

While I don't classify myself as a "pantheist", I do concur with many of the tenets of Scientific Pantheism, as presented on an earlier thread, on which you presented your views repeatedly.

I resent your above statement. Most of the people who responded favorably to the sci-pan philosophy aren't the type, as far as I can tell from all their other postings. In fact, I would think that more people who identify with organized religion, (particularly christians, since I have more familiarity with their views than other organized religious types) who would buy into these pop-sci programs than sci- pans. After all, if you're gullible enough to buy into christianity, with all it's feel good beliefs, you're demonstrating your willingness to accept things on faith, rather than on substance.

I personally have NEVER believed in astrology, crystals, or the occult. Actually, isn't belief in christian tenets the same as belief in the occult?

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 29, 2000.

Jumpoff,

I understand your opinion is different from mine, but doubt it is correct. I don't however know where to find statistics on the subject to "prove" it one way or the other. Got any ideas?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 30, 2000.

Frank, if you are looking for "proof" of my statement, "I personally have NEVER believed in astrology, crystals, or the occult", I could maybe give you some personal references, if that would constitute proof. Otherwise, you could search the net to find my previoius postings, and draw your own conclusions.

If the proof you seek deals with "Actually, isn't belief in christian tenets the same as belief in the occult?", what kind of proof do you need?

If you are searching for proof of my position, "I would think that more people who identify with organized religion, (particularly christians, since I have more familiarity with their views than other organized religious types) who would buy into these pop-sci programs than sci- pans. After all, if you're gullible enough to buy into christianity, with all it's feel good beliefs, you're demonstrating your willingness to accept things on faith, rather than on substance."

I'm afraid that I am unable to provide any proof. Damn me anyway. Fucking clueless hippie.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 30, 2000.

JOJ,

In response to your post, I was obviously referring to this section:

If you are searching for proof of my position, "I would think that more people who identify with organized religion, (particularly christians, since I have more familiarity with their views than other organized religious types) who would buy into these pop-sci programs than sci- pans. After all, if you're gullible enough to buy into christianity, with all it's feel good beliefs, you're demonstrating your willingness to accept things on faith, rather than on substance."

I'm afraid that I am unable to provide any proof. Damn me anyway. Fucking clueless hippie.

How you came up with the first idea, that I wanted you to prove your personal beliefs, is beyond me.

Anyway, we share the same problem (well, not the hippie part) in that I don't know of a great way to show that pantheism and astrology etc. go together, and similarly don't know of a good way to show that Christians would NOT be as big of believers in the same. But that's my unfounded opinion. :-)

Will get back if any great ideas come to mind.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 01, 2000.

Frank,

Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn here. One of the reasons I enjoyed the old 'Bomb' was that it exposed me to views from folks from across the country { a few from 'round the world}.

My landscape of the left coast is more of a melting pot, or fruit salad, if you prefer.

I seems that many who profess themselves as 'Christians' on the net are prone to seeing anyone of a differing viewpoint in a very narrow perspective.

-- flora (***@__._), May 01, 2000.

Flora, you said,

"I seems that many who profess themselves as 'Christians' on the net are prone to seeing anyone of a differing viewpoint in a very narrow perspective.

I take it that would be in contrast to your open-minded perspective so aptly demonstrated above...

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 01, 2000.

Touche!

-- flora (***@__._), May 02, 2000.

Electromagnetics can't affect a person? Well apparently you must forget that we live on a giant magnet. And, that the Sun has interacted in a mosts electromagnetic fashion with the Earth for billions of years (the term "Solar Wind" comes to mind). Additionally, your DNA is affected by magnetics. I quote from "Physics for Scientists and Engineers" (Doulgas C. Giancoli pg. 628 4th paragraph 3rd sentence) "All other materials show some slight magnetic effect..." Therefore, it is not only possible but highly probable that the magnetic field of the Earth and Sun have a profound influence on the perterbation of your DNA - your parents might give you your looks but they don't give you your personality.

-- (agentj@hhinternet.com), March 16, 2002.