Here's a link to a site called Christians Anonymous. It's about recovery from Christianity.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9104/

Twelve Steps To Recovery 1.) "We have admitted we are powerless over Christianity - that our faith has become unmanageable." The first step to recovery involves simple admission that Christianity controls you, that you no longer have the ability to think rationally. This is the key component to liberation from your religious chains. By falling victim to Christianity you must face up to the fact that you have allowed a cultic religion seize your powers of thought and of decision making. Once you can actually say to yourself - "Yes! I am a victim. I am powerless to this addiciton." - you can start looking to the second step. Firstly however, you absolutely must work this first step. Stand up and admit to yourself that you have allowed Christianity to overrun your life.

2.) "We came to the realization that Christianity could drive us to complete insanity." In your illusory view of the world, seen through the deceptive and unrealistic veil of Christianity, you have embarked on a journey down the road to madness. As you have already admitted that you have become a victim of your own religion, you must now face the reality that it has the potential of driving you insane. A good way to visualize this is to look at many of the religious leaders you see on programs such as TBN and the 700 Club. The men and women portrayed on these programs are clear-cut examples of the tragic symptoms of this disease. You must recognize the insanity they exhibit while they rant and rave, while they espouse their non-sensical ideas and speak the lies their religion supports. This step is of critical importance and yet it is one of the most difficult as it mandates you to admit that you are ideed a part of an illogical and dangerous cultic religion. You must face these realities head on. A way to better come to grips with this task is to reevaluate what your relgion asked you to believe in. Remember, you have been ordered to worship a dead cult leader - Jesus Christ - of whom you were told 'died for your sins', which you will soon see makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Further on we will examine your belief structure to help this you absorb this step with greater ease. Once you have a more intelligent view on your religion you will be better able to extract yourself from it.

3.) "Made a decison to stop turning over our free will to the care of a God we never fully understood in the first place." This step involves taking back your most precious faculty - Free Will! One of the first things you lost, and the most important, was your ability to think for yourself. As a Christian you have surrendered your ability to make rational choices and to think with skepticism, which you will see is a critical element of rational thought. By unshackling your mind from the mental imprisonment of your Christian faith, you now have the weapon that Christianity fears most - an unwashed brain! With your senses again in order you can face Christian dogma face to face, and see it for what it really is. Step Two taught you to come to the acceptance that your relilgion was an exercise in insane humility. With your mind armed with this knowledge you can now begin erasing each one of the childish myths that you once allowed to control you.

4.) "Made a searching and fearless moral evaluation of our faith." This step asks you to sit down and take a hard look at your beliefs as dictated to you by your cultic religion. It is the folly of Christians that most never bother to apply a shred of critical thought to their religion's mythical nature. Hence, one becomes a Christian by failing to use rational thought mechanisms and inevitably falls prey to the emotional seductions of this superstitious cult. By allowing yourself to actually analyze your belief structure without the mental blinders imposed upon you by Christianity, you will soon see that you have been a victim of the greatest fraud ever perpetrated upon the human race. Later on we will help you attain the necessary elemental thought patterns needed to see your faith for what it truly is.

5.) "Admitted to society, the world and ourselves the exact inept nature of our religion, which is totally wrong." While one of our programs most difficult steps to take, it is also the most important. Now that you have admitted that your faith is out of control and that you have recognized the many follies your religion represents, it is time to tell the world, to whom your religion so loudly tried to corrupt, the truth about Christianity. Having evaluated your faith you can now begin the task of helping others recognize the treachery that you allowed to befall you. In this process not only will you be able to strengthen your resolve to become a better non-Christian, but will also aid others in leading them away from their so-called "saviour". As you see that, even as a recovering Christian, you can help others who are lost amidst the madness of Christianity you will have the added bonus of reinforcing your commitment to total seperation from your former self.

6.) "We are entirely prepared to remove these 'holier than thou' attitudes." One of the strongest hallmarks you have exhibted as a born-again is your remarkable ability to believe you were somehow a "chosen one" or that God had some special place in his kingdom reserved for you. Christianity, in it's smug self-rightiousness, has filled you with a spiritual ego that would offend even the most arrogant of Gods. The extraction of this attitude is a neccessary step as it involves removing one of the most offensive qualities a Christian carries with him/herself. Additionally you are given a lesson in humility, something every Christian is in dire need of.

7.) "Humbly agreed to keep our relation to God completely to ourselves." One of your greatest weaknesses as a Christian has been the seemingly uncontrollable impulse of "ministering" or "spreading the good news of the gospel". By doing so you have made yourself a great nuisance to persons of other faiths (or of no faith at all) and have essentally become a menace. Once you have mastered the early steps of this program you will have seen how much of a pain in the neck you were and want very much to resolve it. Having done away with your childish outlook on religion (your Christian perspective)you can now concentrate on keeping any further relationships with God to yourself and no longer striving to tell the world about it. This will help you make friends in the long run.

8.) "Made a list of all persons we had deceived and turned over to Christianity and became willing to tell them the real truth." This is a pertinent component in your recovery process. This step involves reaching out to those you "ministered" to and brought to Christ. When you did so, you never realized what potential harm you were doing to the minds of your victims. In fact, you wholeheartedly believed you were doing God's work. The real truth of the matter is that you had a personal agenda in mind. You believed that by bringing in new cult members you were sucking up to God, thinking he would somehow have a higher opinion of you and would possibly reward you in some form or another. This is the selfishness inherant in most Christians. Many seek avenues that offer shameless self-promotion and place them on what they assume is God's list of favorites. What you never understood was that you were in fact contributing to the "dumbing down" process already rampant in today's society. As you are coming to realize, Christianity does NOT offer salvation - only consternation, guilt, ego and self-righteousness. By making a commitment to seeking out the persons you sucked into your cult and admitting you were wrong, you are not only helping to undo the damage you may have caused to these individuals, but aiding greatly in your own process of recovery.

9.) "Made direct ammends to all persons we told would 'burn in hell' if they did not believe as we did." Like Step #8, this is yet another act of goodness you must execute on your road to becoming an ex-Christian. You will no doubt remember the terrible ideas you promoted as a Christian to non-believers. These include the pushing on others of the concept of damnation to eternal fire for not accepting Christ. As you, at this point in the program, have come to admit, this is a ludicrous concept. It is one of Christianity's most filthy and deviant weapons. Many ignorant persons you told this to were almost certainly scared into joining the ranks of the Christian cult. You yourself may have been sucked into becoming a Christian via this method. This threat of death and hellfire is the Christian Church's most effective weapon. What you now must embark upon is a reconciliation with both yourself and those whom you used this weapon against. As in Step #8, it inolves telling them the truth about Christianity. This will be greatly enhanced as you become more free-thinking and develop more effective critical thought skills.

10.) "Continued to take a spiritual inventory of our former beliefs and when we were wrong (which was almost always), promptly admitted how naive we were." Again, like a few steps you have already taken, this simply involves reexamining your former beliefs and identifying those you now know to be utterly false. It is a lesson in humility, something every Christian needs. Naivety is the most telling trait of every Christian cult member. As you progress from a theologically brainwashed prisoner of Christ to a more enlighted, free-thinking, self-governing entity, you will actually come to find this step the easiest and perhaps most enjoyable of them all. You will, for the first time, have the opportunity to laugh at yourself and be able to see the great humor in your religion. You'll wonder how you could have be so utterly blind. Regaining a sense of power over your life will be this steps greatest reward.

11.) "Sought through education and common sense to improve upon our disconnection from Christianity as we saw necessary, educating and empowering ourselves to carry the renunciation of our faith out." As your walk down the path away from the demons of Christianity progresses, you will find solice in the fact that your mind will be openeing to all sorts of horizons you probably never knew existed. The greatest enemy of your religion is knowledge. Christianity is fueled and kept alive by pure ignorance and intellectual immaturity. The educative steps you embark upon will lessen the withdrawal symptons you may experience and at the same time open the gates to a new and wonderful life. For the first time you will be able to respect and admire the fruits of knowledge and education. Previously you often denied basic facts of science which you will now find make more sense than ever. As science was always your greatest enemy, you will now find it an antidote and ally. You will finally come to accept such basic facts as evolution, both biological and non-biological. You will come to laugh at your former beliefs in such ridiculous stories as Noah's Flood and the infamous story of Creation found in Genesis. As your beliefs in fairy tales fade you will finally come to recognize these stories for what they really are - myths. Also, for perhaps the first time, you will be able to effectively utilize basic common sense and critical evaluative thought. Christianity has kept these away from you for long enough, now its time to enlighten yourself!

12.) "Having had an intellectual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other misled Christians, and agreed to cease all further practices involving shameless religious persuasion and, furthermore, to never again use God as a terror weapon." As you take your last step towards spritual freedom you commit yourself to spreading the good news of salvation to other cult members. With having broken the chains of Christianity you now have the knowledge in hand that can benefit persons lost in the madness of Christian illusion. Furthermore, you make a promise to never use your former relgion to frighten others into falling prey to the Jesus-Cult. This means no further ministering of any sort, only that of recovery. You can now think clearly about life; forever free from the enslaving and hateful doctrine of Christian dogma.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000

Answers

So, I assume, monkey man, you prefer your own religion of humanism to the "evils" of Christianity. Lord knows Darwin and his peers were a real boon to humanity with their false theories that have devalued human life including support of racism, genocide, murder and more.

God is providing a few pieces of historic evidence lately to give more proof to those who are "open minded" to validate the veracity of many biblical accounts (the Shroud, the "real" Mt. Sinai, other recent major archaeological finds). This could mean that "all" that the bible says is true? huh? I would imagine He will continue to do so "lest any man should perish". However, I believe it won't be all that long and you can tell the King of Kings personally how you feel about his "false" religion of Christianity. God help you. Personally, I hope something comes into your life so that you will see the truth and stop believing the lies of the evil one who wants you to think that all Christians are bad, self-righteous, condemning, hateful, etc. They aren't but as long as you are deluded into thinking that you are no threat to Satan because he owns your soul already. It is only when you open your mind to the possibility that what you currently believe may be a lie, that you become dangerous to Satan (who will then make you out to be a bad guy too) but part of the family of God (that, by the way, has a much rosier future).

-- eve (created&proud@of.it), April 15, 2000.

The Shroud of Turin was discredited long ago. Sorry, thanks for playing!

http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Eve:

I thought the Christian God is all-forgiving.

Surely He will forgive a person for not believing in Him.

-- (retard@but.happy), April 15, 2000.

Humorous 12-step program, Tarzan. The main problem, as I see it, is that part of the 12-step program encourages the same behaviors seen as objectionable while on the opposing end. First, there will be a smugness in the newfound "freedom" [similar to the smugness found in some Christians] and second, there will be proselytizing the new "freedom", which is the same annoying behavior as the Evangelism of the Christians.

I think it was Eric Hoffer who stated that a True Believer will ALWAYS be a true believer, even if the belief system changes 180 degrees. Consider the behavior of some smokers. "I'll smoke WHERE I want to, WHEN I want to, and if the smoke gets in YOUR eyes, YOU move." Now consider the behavior of reformed smokers. "I can't STAND the smell of smoke. It makes me SICK. Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray."

It's no secret that those who leave Christianity after staunchly believing in it for years will become just as staunch in the NEXT belief system [even if that system is a belief in NO belief.} The same holds true of those who once firmly believed that Christianity was the worst possible way to go. As reformed Christians, their opinions are just as inflexible.

Not everyone, of course, has the True Believer qualities. I've met folks who have smoked for many years and don't mind at all if others smoke. I've met people who did drugs for years and have quite a tolerance for those who choose this path, even though they themselves have given it up. I've met folks who were non-believers who became Christians, folks who once believed abortion was acceptable, who no longer believe it is. NONE of these folks attempt to proselytize THEIR belief systems on others, because they're not True Believers.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 15, 2000.

So, I assume, monkey man, you prefer your own religion of humanism to the "evils" of Christianity. Lord knows Darwin and his peers were a real boon to humanity with their false theories that have devalued human life including support of racism, genocide, murder and more.

And I must say how much I enjoyed Darwin's classic work "Since We're all just Monkeys Anyway, let's Kill as Many of us as We Can".

What twaddle. Eve, have you ANY concept of the crusades? How about the Spanish Inquisition? Many leaders of the Christian Church in the south stood AGAINST civil rights for blacks. But I guess that is all Darwin's fault somehow.

God is providing a few pieces of historic evidence lately to give more proof to those who are "open minded" to validate the veracity of many biblical accounts....This could mean that "all" that the bible says is true? huh?

Could you please tell me where all of the water went after the Great Flood? I use a lot of ice in my Margaritas, but surely not enough to account for all of that missing H2O. I guess since the Earth is still flat it my have run off the edges, would that have done it? Eve, could you help me out here?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 15, 2000.

Hey! Isn't "racism, genocide and murder" what the Christian Crusades and Inquisition were all about?

-- Pat (-@still.here), April 15, 2000.

Pat,

Who says that all Christians condone that sort of stuff? I know lots of Christians, and not one of them does.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 15, 2000.

YOU ARE A BIGOT, YOU ARE STEREOTYPING ALL CRISTIANS ON WHAT A FEW DO. yOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT REAL CHRISTIANITY IS.and YES I AM ADDICTED FOR ETERNITY. BUT NO I WILL NOT GO CRAZY AS I HAVE PEACE. I HAVE LOVE. AND I HAVE FORGIVENESS. I FORGIVE YOU. I PRAY YOU BIGOTED WAYS WILL SOFTEN.

-- boo (boo@home.com), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

Please explain the beginning of the universe to me.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

Why do you have the need to ridicule Christians, especially this close to Easter. Does it stem from some inner fears or needs? Unless they are actively hounding you, trying to convert you, why should you be concerned at all? If someone is trying to evangalize you, why not just put them off courteously? Frankly, I don't understand why some people, often highly intelligent and intellectual, have this need to attack sincere Christians and Christianity. If their faith doesn't cause you some sort of insecurity at a deeper level, then why not leave them alone and treat them with the same respect that you would like to receive?

-- Dr. Shrink (drshrink@shrink.asc), April 15, 2000.

Anita, the Christians I grew up with worked on me for years to convert, but even as a kid, with people looking down on me, I held firm and wouldn't give in to brainwashing. I made one sincere attempt when I was a young woman, mid 20s, to believe all the Christian dogma and yada yada yada, (you know the drill) but it simply didn't work. Now I'm a senior citizen, and it all seems just as unbelievable as ever,,,,, but here's the rub.

After all my strenght at resisting religious dogma of any sect, although in all sincerity, the Christians are the only ones that really worked me over,,,, now tell me why I was such a dunderhead as to fall for Y2K, just because some proselytizing IT professionals and religious nuts told me to prepare, prepare prespare, or suffer the consequences.

BTW, I'm a reformed smoker too, but I try not to get all bent out of shape at other smokers. But I do get all bent out of shape at the big settlements former smokers get for their ignorance that cigarettes would harm them. Hell, they knew just like I did when I was 21, that if you pull enough smoke into your lungs, it isn't healthy.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 2000.

Great Primordial Soup, grant us the serenity to accept the things that we cannot change,

the courage to change the things that we can

and the wisdom to know the difference

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 15, 2000.

"Serenity now!"

George Costanza's father.

-- (retard@but.happy), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I've got to admit, it sounds good to me. I should become a complete Darwinist. Step on people, eat the last bald eagle, whatever it takes for me to survive and increase my own numbers.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 15, 2000.

Y2J- Only if you explain the beginning of God.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

That is my point. I (nor you) can explain the beginning of God. He has always been, He always will be.

Likewise, we as men can speculate that the universe began with a bang, but that begets the question, what was there before the bang? A dot of matter in space? How did that get there? Etc.

Men live their lives in finite terms, but there are things that are infinite. The universe was created by God. God (unlike anything else that we know) is infinite. No amount of science has yet proven to me otherwise.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 15, 2000.

Y2J-

I (nor you) can explain the beginning of the universe. It has always been, it always will be.

Likewise, we as men can speculate that the universe began with a god, but that begets the question, what was there before the god? Another god? How did that get there? Etc.

Men live their lives in finite terms, but there are things that are infinite. Life was created by the universe. The universe (unlike anything else that we know) is infinite. No amount of religious smoke and mirrors has yet proven to me otherwise.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Is it not a matter of fact vs faith.

There are two sides to every coin.

Few things are black or white...most are grey.

Can mankind ever find a "common ground"?

Will this issue be solved....ever?

A related issue....Andy Rooney a couple of weeks ago had some suggestions for modernizing the Ten Commandments.

Peace and Love

-- john carter (erb@cheeta.ed), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

So, in effect, the universe is your god?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 15, 2000.

Linus: Is Santa Claus real?

Charlie Brown: I refuse to get involved in theological discussions.

From: Charles Schultz, a long time ago.

-- (retard@but.happy), April 15, 2000.

Secular humanists and pantheists all worship the creation not the Creator. The above mentioned peoples use the flesh/mind or reasoning to establish their beliefs. They submit to their flesh. The true Christian on the other hand submits to God through Jesus His son. Even Charles Darwin finally accepted the Lord before he died and also renounced his theory of evolution as being wrong.

-- rowd (morgan77@home.com), April 15, 2000.

Y2J-

Nope, I don't believe in any god or gods. However, if your god doesn't require a creator, then neither does the universe.

Rowd-

Charles Darwin did NOT have a death bed conversion. It's an urban legend. Here's a web site where you can read about this and other christian urban legends.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul.htm

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Taezan,

Do you REALLY believe that the universe is the ultimate creator, or did you just use that example to refute my argument?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 15, 2000.

Sorry, Tarzan, not Taezan.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I'll do you the courtesy of reading your site if you likewise read www.grmi.org./Richard Riss/evidences2/15dat.html I never said he had a deathbed conversion I said he accepted christ.He was an orthodox christian as a young boy, then went to nature,then back to Jesus.

-- rowd (morgan77@home.com), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan, I need to correct the site address, www.grmi.org./Richard_Riss/evidences2/15dar.html.

-- rowd (morgan77@home.com), April 15, 2000.

What about Jean Paul Sartre, the French Existentialist? I heard that he converted to Christianity at the end of his life. Is that an urban legend too? (just asking)

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 15, 2000.

Rowd-

You OBVIOUSLY didn't read my link; it was all about the lack of veracity in the Lady Hope story. The Lady Hope story, while commonly repeated, is simply not true.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Here's an interesting Christian website. Sorry, I'm link illiterate. http://www.yellowstoneinfo.com/

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 15, 2000.

Frank:

eat the last bald eagle,

Have you ever tried to eat a raptor. Explains why they didn't go the way of the bison 1000 y ago.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 15, 2000.

Y2J-

I think it doesn't matter whether or not the universe has a creator. If the universe does have a creator, that doesn't prove that said creator is Jehovah, Odin, Rama, Astarte, or Barney the Purple Dinosaur. Just because the universe might have a creator doesn't mean that said creator is known currently on earth, conscious of our existance, benevolent, or even currently in existance itself.

However, saying that the universe is too complex to lack a creator begs the question of who, or what, created that creator. Surely a being complex enough to create the universe would, itself, need a creator, who in turn would also need a creator. St. Augustine called this problem "infinite regression", and said that it was dangerous heresy to even ponder it. So, get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness.

Lars-

I'm not sure about Sartre. I'll check it out for you. One of my hobbies is debunking urban legends.

In the meantime, here's some more info on the Darwin/Lady Hope urban legend.

http://christianhumor.about.com/entertainment/christianhumor/gi/dynami c/offsite.htm?site=http://www.natcenscied.org/PADREV.HTM

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 15, 2000.

Anitas' font appears:" Not everyone, of course, has the True Believer qualities. I've met folks who have smoked for many years and don't mind at all if others smoke. I've met people who did drugs for years and have quite a tolerance for those who choose this path, even though they themselves have given it up. I've met folks who were non-believers who became Christians, folks who once believed abortion was acceptable, who no longer believe it is. NONE of these folks attempt to proselytize THEIR belief systems on others, because they're not True Believers." Whoa Anita, you might want to look at this from another angle. I have a belief, I arrived at this "belief" after many human years, little Church attendance, with much human kindness intervention, strewn across the years. I have also changed some of my views, radically from years ago. It is an on-going skin learning experience. You really meant " we do not attempt to irritate every person we meet to try to sway them to our belief which took many years and many different experiences to form". Such an attempt would be futile,and really stupid on my part. I believe the "Spirit" draws us, through no works of our own, can we have any knowledge. I can't stop that fool fellow driver from riding my bumper on the way to work. Nor can I have any influence on that Stupido who keeps cutting ever so dangerously in front of other cars. If I cannot control or have any influence over this Road Rage scenerio, what chance in Heaven or Hell do I have of convincing another to what I believe?. Are you asking me to preach and convince you. I cannot, and will not. I will offer you some kindness, if you seem to need it and are willing to receive it. Maybe you are are still thinking those with the loudest voices, are surely the righteous, maybe not, in skin.

-- Sinner (still@skin.com), April 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I suppose you think this is a good thread. You bring a meaning to the words free speech.

I do not agree with you at all. It appears many here do?

The sad part is you fashioned this from a program.

No doubt, AA, NA or whichever one you attend.

No wonder you havent RECOVERED yet.

You have the gall to speak of recovery? So you had a bad experience somewhere down the road, does it make all those who are seeking for a relationship with God in need of a program? Not.

Too bad you chose to disconnect, because one day you will as we all will answer for the disconnection.

See the great thing about God is, we can disconnect by not choosing to turn others against him as you have here in this post. But the reality is to him although it hurts, he knows we will give account for our words.

Choose yours carefully.

-- jane (jane@urnutz.com), April 15, 2000.

Z, you said,

"eat the last bald eagle,

Have you ever tried to eat a raptor. Explains why they didn't go the way of the bison 1000 y ago. "

Z, have you ever used a shotgun? I never said I'd try and catch him *with my hands*, and Frankly, I'd put the odds on me. After all, I was pretty successful catching the passenger pigeons ;-) .

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 15, 2000.

Frank, I think the point about the raptors is not whether or not you can kill one, by hand, shotgun, auto, or by any other means. The point, I assume, is that they probably don't taste real good.

I wouldn't know for sure, though, as I'm one of those pagan herbivore type people.

JOJ

Tarzan, I think it's pretty silly to provoke the christians with this type of post. I do, however, agree with most of the arguments you've made against the christians who chose to respond to your twelve step program.

I certainly think christianity is a crutch, but what the hell, if you need a crutch, you use a crutch, right?

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 16, 2000.

Jane:

You wouldn't happen to be debunking 12 step programs, would you?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Jumpoff,

I see your point. On re-reading Z's post, I'm not sure WHAT he meant. Maybe he'll re-post and enlighten me.

In any event, the passenger pigeons were a bit gamy too, but that didn't stop me from making sure their species didn't supplant mine as top of the food chain.

Starting to believe I'm in serious need of sleep,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 16, 2000.

Just a note to y'all that the "eve" who posted above is not me.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 16, 2000.

Jane-

If you'd read my post, you would have seen that I got the recovery program from a web site. It is not my work. I, personally, did not "fashion" it at all. I have not, nor have I ever been, a Christian, nor have I ever been part of a twelve step program. I certainly wouldn't bother to join AA or NA if I did have a substance abuse problem, because those programs require their participants to believe in a higher power. I don't believe in a higher power, so neither of those programs would do me any good.

In my opinion, either one believes or one doesn't believe. There is no choice involved. If you have to make a conscious choice to believe, then you don't actually believe, you are merely pretending and are nothing more than a hypocrite. All known religions, including Christianity, condemn hypocrisy.

JOJ-

I think everyone should be provoked. It makes people think, and that is a good thing. I don't believe in sacred cows, and if I find something provocative on line, I'll draw attention to it for discussions sake. If theists need to rely on their religion, I have no problem with that. However, I do have a problem with theists who tell me my lack of need for religion is a problem.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthoughthejunglewithouta.net), April 16, 2000.

"Jesus is coming... look busy." - bumpersticker

(snicker)

loungin' on the porch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

It's interesting to note that as we Christians approach our most holy days, that the attacks against religion in general, and Christianity in particular have been increasing. Satan is obviously alive and well, working through each person's weak points to destroy them and use them as tools to damage and destroy others. Some of the brightest and most self-satisfied people are in fact unwitting tools of the Devil. It's a shame that they can't see it. Christians know that what really matters is the eternal soul. Don't be discouraged if you are intellectually out-maneuvered or out-argued by silver-tongued words whose origin is Satan no matter from whose mouth uttered. Our Father and His Son know and remember all. Let's celebrate the day of Resurrection with happiness, and await His return with joy in our hearts. " Not one jot or tittle shall pass away, until all be fulfilled!"

-- Faith (faith@happy.Easter), April 16, 2000.

Don't forget the rite of fertilization next Sunday...

snoozin'...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

Dog,

When you walk in front of a mirror, does your reflected countenance show horns and a shriveled up appearance?

-- Morlock Hunter (morlockhunter@goodand.evil), April 16, 2000.

Frank:

Jump off Joe got the intent of the statement. I've never eaten an eagle myself, but I remember reading the journal written by a French trapper.

Lost in the rockies and unable to find food, he shot an eagle and roasted it. While I'm not real good at translating vulgarities from 18th century French, the general impression that I got was that starving was preferable.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 16, 2000.

2.) "Having had an intellectual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other misled Christians, and agreed to cease all further practices involving shameless religious persuasion and, furthermore, to never again use God as a terror weapon."

Seems to me it's not God that's being used as terror weapon, but the great almighty Satan!

Ha! What better way to stop independant thoughts from detractors than to suggest that to have questions and thinking independantly is the evil deed of Satan, and therefore your soul is eternaly doomed to hell?

Fear and Guilt, the tools of suppression used by dictators around the world.

Tarzan, I view trying to "deprogram" Christians (and any other religious faith) as futile and not productive. Those with the intellect strong enough to do so will on thier own. Those who can't, need their religion and guidance.

-- (let@them.be), April 16, 2000.

Tarzan,

Ok, you are correct I did see you retrieved it off off another site, humble apologies. But, you were peeking and admitted you believe in no God, so why the post? To antagonize perhaps?

Future,

I am not against a 12 step program, I just felt this was an unfortunate spinoff of one. 12 Steps do encourage higher power. Saw many get well that way. Have no problem at all.

Have problem with knocking christianity or any religion. Expressing my view.

-- jane (jane@urnutz.com), April 16, 2000.

Z,

Thx. I was thinking more of a joke my middle-school-aged nephew told me:

"An avid environmentalist was lost in the woods in the Pacific Northwest for weeks. On his rescue, he admitted to the T.V. people that despite his convictions on preserving the environment, he was so hungry that he ate a spotted owl (endangered species here). After the commotion died down, one of the reporters asked him how it tasted, to which he replied,

"A little bit better than the passenger pigeon".

Ha Ha Ha,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 16, 2000.

Morlock Hunter,

No but I have a tail and lots of hair, and CANINES!!!

I like to drink from the toilet. I LOVE to watch people eat... the cat is fun to chase... I have a buddy next door and we play "BARKARAMA!" The boss doesn't like that too much, especially when all the lights are off in the house and everyone else is trying to sleep. I like to sniff crotches... LOL.

Does that make me DEMONIC??? Ah, no... but I don't know about you...

scratchin' an itch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

Hey Dog,

If you are ever curious about where I've been just ask, keep yer snoot outta my butt, deal?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 16, 2000.

Let, you said,

"Tarzan, I view trying to "deprogram" Christians (and any other religious faith) as futile and not productive. Those with the intellect strong enough to do so will on thier own. Those who can't, need their religion and guidance."

Why would you assume religious faith is for the weak of intellect? As an example Einsein was religious (at least as evidenced by his "God does not play dice with the universe" statement), and most people don't consider him a dunderhead. Personally, I'd bet more "great thinkers" overall would be considered believers than not.

I also think athiesm itself can be at least as big of a "crutch". True religious belief requires responsibility (IMHO), and for some it's much easier to say "it doesn't matter, there is no God" than to correct their behaviors and live up to their responsibilities. I guess it's all in one's perspective.

But one thing's FOR SURE. Close-minded people don't just live on one side of the street.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 16, 2000.

Deal Unk,

I usually wait for the females though regarding that last bit, if you know what I mean.... : )

snoozin'...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

Frank-

Einstein didn't believe in a personal god. Here's a couple of quotes for you.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

The above quote is from a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954. It is included in "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, and published by Princeton University Press. Also from the same book:

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

For more on Einstein and religion, go to this link.

http://www.stcloud.msus.edu/~lesikar/einstein/index.html

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithtoua.net), April 16, 2000.

Sorry Faith, I don't believe in the devil.

Thanks, Tarzan, I knew that Einstein was not a Christian, but I couldn't remember where I'd read it.

I think some people need religion though, because they need a father figure--the need of someone to watch over them and guide them.

I had a friend, nonChristian, that once said, "I wish I could believe that there was a God, for it would make life much simpler, but I can't. Same with me.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 16, 2000.

"I wish I could believe that there was a God, for it would make life much simpler, but I can't."

It's like saying "I wish I was dumber, life would be so much simpler."

Ignorance really is bliss.

-- Simon (s@y.s), April 16, 2000.

Pardon me...wasn't Jesus murdered by pharisees and those who CLAIMED to be following God's law? Wasn't he accused of blasphemy?

This is why I forego the label of "christian", as the world knows it. Yes, I am a follower of Jesus, The Son Of God. But the world has so blasphemed God, by doing evil things in His name.

Obviously you cannot say that ALL "followers of Jesus" are alike.

Open up your HEARTS and you WILL find the truth.

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

Tarzan,

Oops, guess Einstein wasn't a pillar of religious conviction. How about Thomas Aquinas?

Gilda,

Einstein wasn't Christian, he was Jewish. But apparently not in a religious sense.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 17, 2000.

Frank, what part did you play in "making sure their species didn't supplant mine as top of the food chain."? How old ARE you, anyway? The passenger pigeon has been extinct for over a hundred years! No wonder you are in "serious need of sleep" By the way, the avid (rabid?) environmentalist must have been lost for a LOOONG time, if he wasn't found until TV reporters were invented!

I guess you're right, Tarzan, man. Those of the faith who get upset by your provocative posts can deal with it, or not, as they see fit. They just get so darn LOUD, is all!

Faith, "if it feels this good gettin' used, well just keep on usin' meeeee!" If my words are truly being guided by The Evil One, am I doomed to hell? Or do I have to sell my soul CONTRACTUALLY?

And if I'm doomed to hell, why, I don't think that's very darn fair! I mean, shoot, GOD HIMSELF had every opportunity to guide my words HIMSELF. Why, my words even had to pass through CYBERSPACE on the way to this forum, and I'm sure GOD has dominion over CYBERSPACE, not SATIN. Am I right?

Thanks, Tarzan, I have always ASSUMED that someone of Einstein's intellect would not be a christian. Glad to know that I was on target.

I, also, have had similar thoughts to those expressed by Gilda and Simon. There have been a few occassions in my life when I was so depressed that I have thought, gee, if I were only a christian, I could pray to god, and maybe get some help in this. But I was never so depressed that I actually followed this "easier" path. In the final analysis, I am proud to say that I remained true to MYSELF. I have always managed to solve my own problems without some extraterrestrial "deus ex machina" dropping in to save the day. And I have personally prosperred and gained strength from finding strength from within, rather than relying on help from without.

But we each do what we are able to do; if a person needs help, and has honestly failed to cope regardless of all their efforts, they should grab the crutch. Maybe they will eventually be able to stand on their own someday, one hopes.

Hope I'm not hurting anyone's feelings. I hope some people using the crutch will be encouraged by this.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 17, 2000.

I'm sorry, friends. The whole tone of that "12 Step" piece and the points that it makes are simplistic, bordering on puerile.

This so-called "enslaving and hateful doctrine" was the driving force in the lives and works of Albert Schweitzer, C.S. Lewis, Father Damian of Molokai, Sojourner Truth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Corrie ten Boom, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa, to name but a few. It also formed the ethical and spritual foundation for the international abolitionist movement, which lamentably is still forced to be active to this day, as slavery is far from being eradicated.

This constant drumbeat about how hypocritical Christians are and how much evil so-called "Christianity" has done in the world is absurd. Organizations like the Salvation Army, Samaritan's Purse, World Vision, and Catholic Relief Services have helped more people more efficiently and effectively than any government program anywhere.

"Some Christians behave hypocritically." Wow, there's a news flash (someone call Reuters.) "Christianity has been used to justify evil deeds." Equally non-newsworthy; anything, no matter how beautiful and good, can be (and often has been) debased by those who want to do what they want to do the way they want to do it.

Weak leaders in the German Church kowtowed to the Nazis and rationalized their actions; Dietrich Bonhoeffer did not, standing firm in his faith and suffering the consequences. Many who professed to follow Christ turned over Jews to the Gestapo; Corrie ten Boom and her family were arrested (and her father and brother died in prison) for their efforts in helping scores of Jews escape from Germany.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that the notion that Christianity is somehow "enslaving and hateful" flies in the face of massive evidence to the contrary.

Tarzan, your timing in posting this thread is profoundly disrespectful of the Christian faith. Do you justify and rationalize such disrespect by pointing out that some who professed to be Christians have behaved badly? If so, you are engaging in the very same self-justifying behavior which you are criticizing.

I would have thought that Kerchak had taught you better manners.

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 17, 2000.

DeeEmBee-

Some great people have been Christians, but that doesn't have any effect on the validity or lackthereof of Christianity. Some very evil people have been Christians, but that doesn't make Christianity an evil religion either. Also, the number of believers a religion has doesn't make it truth. There was a time when everyone on earth believed the earth was flat, but that doesn't mean the world changed shapes. As Gandhi (not a Christian) said, "Facts and facts, and they will not change because of your likes".

Christians have started a lot of good organizations. That's nice. They've also started a lot of bad organizations, such as the KKK and the House Unamerican Activities Committee. That's bad. Neither set of organizations however says anything about Christianity as a religion.

I acknowledge that you feel my post, posted near Easter, is offensive to the Christians in general. Frankly, I don't really care. Christians in general have no qualms about stepping on the holidays of other religions. They regularly proselytize pagans at Cadlemas and Samhain, Jews near Passover, Muslims during Ramadans, and atheists every day of the week. Christians in general feel justified being offensive to other religions any time they darn well feel like it, and so I am not motivated to pay any respect to the timing of their religious holidays.

I think it's interesting that many folks on this thread have accused me of being insulting, however, it is the Christians on this thread who have hurled vicious insults and invective. Eve called me "monkey man" and said I was deluded. Boo called me a bigot. Jane implied that I had a substance abuse problem. Faith went so far as to say that Satan is speaking through me.

Now, given that I haven't insulted anyone personally, give me one good reason why I should show any regard for your feelings whatsoever?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 17, 2000.

Tarzan, You said,

"I acknowledge that you feel my post, posted near Easter, is offensive to the Christians in general. Frankly, I don't really care. Christians in general have no qualms about stepping on the holidays of other religions."

If you witnessed a murder would you kill someone too? If you believe a behavior is offensive, why do you continue to spread it?

You also said,

"give me one good reason why I should show any regard for your feelings whatsoever? "

How about to show you aren't a part of the lowest common denominator?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 17, 2000.

Frank-

"If you witnessed a murder would you kill someone too? If you believe a behavior is offensive, why do you continue to spread it?"

Good question. Why DO Christians insist on disregarding the holidays of other religions when they find it offensive when their holidays are disregarded? You would think that, as persecuted as Christians feel, they would be more sensitive.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 17, 2000.

Tarzan -

Now, given that I haven't insulted anyone personally, give me one good reason why I should show any regard for your feelings whatsoever?

Perhaps because no one whom you or I admire (Gandhi, Schweitzer, whoever) would behave as you have done. Regard for another's feelings is essential for any right conduct, Tarzan, and the fact that someone else shows no regard for your feelings in no way frees you to respond in kind. That's exactly what Christ was talking about when he counseled his followers about "turning the other cheek." The natural human response is to deck the person who hits you. The "better nature" response is to absorb the blow and continue the dialogue.

I have to say that posting an article which characterizes someone's core beliefs as "enslaving and hateful" seems to me to be a fairly personal attack. Words and phrases like "treachery", "selfishness", and "intellectual immaturity" seem like little more than ad hominem arguments and hardly conducive to reasoned discussion.

Did you consider that posting to be a well-thought-out and supported critique of Christianity?

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 17, 2000.

DeeEmBee-

"...no one whom you or I admire (Gandhi, Schweitzer, whoever) would behave as you have done."

You're assuming an awful lot there, don't you think? You don't actually know whom I admire. For the record, Gandhi had harsh words for his critics and enemies and was quick to point out hypocrisy wherever he found it. Oscar Wilde, another man I admire, also rarely let an insult go unanswered. Likewise Benjamin Franklin, Madelyn Murry-O'Hair, Susan B. Anthony, and H.L. Mencken.

"Words and phrases like "treachery", "selfishness", and "intellectual immaturity" seem like little more than ad hominem arguments and hardly conducive to reasoned discussion."

Are they as ad hominem as "deluded" "bigot" and "mouth piece of Satan"? It's interesting, and more than a little hypocritical, that your only apparent concern is with the feelings of those who share your belief. Is it the level of discourse you're concerned with, or the criticism of your religion?

"Did you consider that posting to be a well-thought-out and supported critique of Christianity?"

Nope, I considered it to be a documentation of former Christians talking about losing faith in their religion. I posted it as a curiosity piece, and perhaps a cautionary tale.

Did you consider your posting to be a well reasoned and supported piece of apologetics?

Did you consider that posting to be a well-thought-out and supported critique of Christianity?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 17, 2000.

Tarzan...until you figure out that no person is perfect, and therefore cannot practice their religion flawlessly....you will keep searching for the answers you seek, but never find them.

Why don't you ask God for understanding, and guidance, and wisdom to know the truth. He will tell you, if you truly listen. But you must listen with your heart and your spirit.

He is waiting for you.

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

Tarzan,

My point would be that you're holding ALL Christians responsible for the actions of SOME of them. This is wrong, surely you see that.

All I was asking you to do was to defend YOUR actions, which YOU are accountable for regardless of what "Christians" do.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.

You're assuming an awful lot there, don't you think? You don't actually know whom I admire...

You're right. My apologies for being unclear. The very short list was neither exhaustive nor all-inclusive. I presumed that your citing of Gandhi indicated some admiration for him, which I share, while Schweitzer was an example of someone whom I admire and whom I presumed you had included in your comment about "great" Christians.

You set the critical tone of this thread with the Christians Anonymous posting, so I directed my comments to you. It should come as no surprise to you that such a posting, especially during Holy Week, has elicited a strong response from followers of Jesus. Some of them have allowed their emotions to cloud their better judgement. You have proven quite capable of pointing this out to them, so I saw no need to assist you. Was there something more that needed to be said?

I lack the skill and background to provide anything approaching thorough apologetics. Might I suggest that you read Mere Christianity? Mr. Lewis is far more eloquent in his defense of the faith than I could ever hope to be.

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 18, 2000.

Frank-

"All I was asking you to do was to defend YOUR actions, which YOU are accountable for regardless of what "Christians" do."

My actions require no defense. I didn't personally insult anyone, all I did was make a post regarding the status of former Chrisitans without regard to one of their holidays. For that, I got called all sorts of names and recieved all sorts of very personal nastiness. It's an interesting religion that causes it's adherents to personally attack its critics.

DeeEmBee-

I read CS Lewis, and I wasn't impressed. Here's a link to a critique of CS Lewis from a non-Christian perspective. I shouldn't have to add this caveat, but in light of the tone of this thread, I obviously need to. In posting this link, I'm not trying to insult CS Lewis, his estate, or his fans. Neither am I trying to insult Christians. All I am doing is offering another perspective on CS Lewis' book, "Mere Christianity" (the title was CS Lewis', not mine). If you don't wish to encounter a different perspective on this book and possible the Christian religion, please don't read this link.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nicholas_tattersall/miracles.ht ml

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 18, 2000.

Tarzan -

Mr. Tattersall's critique is of C.S. Lewis' Miracles, not Mere Christianity. Though both works have similar sounding titles, they are quite different in subject matter, as is Allan Frewin Jones' Meerkat in Trouble.

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 18, 2000.

Cin said, "Tarzan...until you figure out that no person is perfect, and therefore cannot practice their religion flawlessly....you will keep searching for the answers you seek, but never find them.

Why don't you ask God for understanding, and guidance, and wisdom to know the truth. He will tell you, if you truly listen. But you must listen with your heart and your spirit.

He is waiting for you. "

Cin, that was a rather patronizing bit of deocentric bullshit. Shame on you. Tarzan doesn't need YOUR help in "finding god" Let god call 911 if he's lost.

I have a question for you, Cin, regarding people "asking god". When a person "talks to god" it is called praying, no? But when god answers, it's called schizophrenia. Why would that be, Cin?

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 18, 2000.

Tarzan, you earlier said,

"I acknowledge that you feel my post, posted near Easter, is offensive to the Christians in general. Frankly, I don't really care."

Now, you say "My actions require no defense. I didn't personally insult anyone, all I did was make a post regarding the status of former Chrisitans without regard to one of their holidays"

You aknowledge you know Christians would find your post offensive, particularly so now that their yearly holy days are here. Yet this doesn't bother you any more than it would I suppose to stand outside a synagogue and shout about how "the holocaust was a myth". (After all, you wouldn't be insulting anyone *personally*). If you don't care about the feelings of your fellow human beings, I understand that.

For my curiosity, what religion (or lack thereof) do you say you're a shining example of again?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.

Jumpoff, you said,

"When a person "talks to god" it is called praying, no? But when god answers, it's called schizophrenia. Why would that be, Cin? "

If God REALLY answered, it wouldn't be schizophrenia. It's called schizophrenia when we assume the person is nuts.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.

Frank-

"You aknowledge you know Christians would find your post offensive, particularly so now that their yearly holy days are here. Yet this doesn't bother you any more than it would I suppose to stand outside a synagogue and shout about how "the holocaust was a myth". (After all, you wouldn't be insulting anyone *personally*)."

No, I acknowledge that one particular Christian feels my words are offensive to Christians as a whole. She doesn't speak for all of Christendom, and neither do you.

Here's where your analogy breaks down. First of all, this bulletin board is not a church. Secondly, when one is being shouted at as one leaves a building, one has no choice but to hear the words of the shouter, unlike this board, which requires listeners to go out of their way to read these words.

It does bother me when I hear of people being shouted at on sidewalks. My girlfriend was doused in red paint while in New York one winter. I myself have had right-to-lifers screaming in my face about being a murderer while volunteering to escort patients into our local abortion clinic. While I strongly disagree with holocaust deniers (and PETA activists, and right-to-lifers), they have a right to their freedom of speech in this country, as well as any other group.

Unfortunately, there is no right to not be offended.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 18, 2000.

Tarzan,

Well, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that while one may have the *right* to do something, that doesn't necessarily mean they *ought* to.

We'd draw that line in a different place.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 18, 2000.

Well, isn't that SPESHUL!

-- (ChurchLady@church.chat), April 19, 2000.

Joe, the fact that you can't stand to hear tender words about God and Faith, says a lot about your spirit.

If you will re-read my former post, you will find that I said "you need to listen with your heart and with your spirit". I believe that would disclude "hearing voices". Though I will not say that hearing voices is always schizophrenia.

One will never be able to scientifically and psychologically explain away my faith and what I believe. And that is what makes it faith. Just because you can't explain or understand something, does it mean that it doesn't exist? I think it's beyond our understanding. But believing it anyway, because of what you feel in your heart and soul...THIS IS FAITH. Would you actually want a God or deity that would be equal to men, when you can see with your own eyes what horrible things men are capable of?

I'm telling you this in the spirit of love, not one of hatred and intolerance and despisement. Please believe me this. This is not a fight about who is wrong and who is right. I only hope you can one day feel His Holy Spirit, and the calm and the comfort.

Please keep in mind, I am obviously not perfect, nor do I claim to be. But God knows our hearts and will forgive if asked. Peace =o)

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

P.S.

The bible says that you can know a tree by what fruit it bears. Just as you will know a true Christian by their fruits.

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

Frank-

"I think that while one may have the *right* to do something, that doesn't necessarily mean they *ought* to."

Especially if that thing is something you don't like, right?

You've jumped all over me from every angle because you feel that I've insulted Christians by posting a website by and for former Christians. You've accused me of being insensitive and even tried to link me to Holocaust deniers. You say that people should be sensitive to the feelings of other human beings.

And yet, when people who share your viewpoint began getting very personal with me, you said nothing. You're very hurt and upset that someone would bring attention to former Christians, but current Christians calling someone "Satans mouthpiece" is just dandy by you.

I think the real issue you have isn't with insensitivity. I think your real issue is with people who disagree with you being sensitive to your viewpoints. You want your own private sacred cows, which others should never touch.

Fortunately, I live in a country where freedom of speech is protected. The founding fathers understood that no matter what a person says, someone somewhere will take issue with it. So they included very strong protections of that speech, to ensure that all viewpoints had a right to speak freely. I consider myself very fortunate indeed.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 19, 2000.

Tarzan, Tarzan, Tarzan,

Lest you forget, YOU STARTED THE THREAD. Specifically, you started a thread during Christians' holy week stating Christianity is a cult that they should be cured of.

That, to me, is offensive behavior. Not illegal, but not "right" either.

Why would it suprise you that people are upset at you? If you were physically attacking someone, would you think they would be as much at fault as you if they defended themselves physically? Why would a verbal attack be any different?

I agree that freedom of speech is a good thing. But with action, comes responsibility. If you post something many people feel is offensive, other people will respond to that. One has to be objective enough to decide if their actions were wrong, or if the "wounded" party was being unreasonable.

Like I said, We'd draw that line in a different place.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 19, 2000.

< If God REALLY answered, it wouldn't be schizophrenia. It's called schizophrenia when we assume the person is nuts.

Frank >

So Frank, isn't that what I was saying?

"Disclude", Cin?

No, Cin, I would not. Since it is claimed by some that god made the universe, I guess I would want a god who had done a bit better job. Like maybe he could have created a universe where men weren't capable of doing such horrible things. Now I'm sure god probably thought we'd be bored if everyone were perfect, so I'm ok with people doing a few "naughty" things. That I could deal with. But no "horrible things" next time, ok?

And Cin, I'm not trying to explain away your faith; I doubt if I could, even if I wanted to. I agree that faith is something you believe, not something you have to prove. I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. I can't prove it, though. And I agree that there is a lot of stuff TOTALLY beyond my understanding. But that doesn't mean that I buy into all the poppycock which is described as "the Word Of God". I reserve the right to at least be a little bit discriminating in what I believe to be true. As far as god knowing my heart, 'fraid I can't buy into that, and I'm not asking his forgiveness, because, a) I have nothing to apologize for that I haven't already apologized for to the PERSON who I wronged, and b) no one's listening even if I DID feel a need to apologize, and c) I'm doing the best I can.

And I find this talk about my fruits a bit personal.

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 19, 2000.

JOJ,

?????????????? I am sincerly confused. What is it about 'fruit' that you find personal?

Cin, I think you and Frank did a very nice job.

Tarzan, Frank is correct. Holy week and you DID start it.

---consumer who is 'observing'

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

Frank-

"If you were physically attacking someone, would you think they would be as much at fault as you if they defended themselves physically? Why would a verbal attack be any different?"

That's just it, Frank. I didn't verbally attack anyone. All I did was point out that there are a group of former Christians on the net who felt the need to form a recovery program. Then *I* got verbally attacked. Of course, that's of no concern to you, seeing as how I'm an infidel at all.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 19, 2000.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

I'm going to bet that Tarzan didn't even know that it was "holy week." I know I didn't know that. In fact, I've never even heard of holy "week" before. Now, I knew that good Friday was coming up, but had not paid enough attention to it to realize that it was actually this Friday. I'm not quite sure what difference it would make whether he makes his point during holy week or not, but again, I'm betting he didn't really think of this as a "holy week" statement.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), April 19, 2000.

Joe, we are ALL capable of doing horrible things. But do we all do them? I believe God gave us a choice. We have a free will to do what we may. And those who do horrible things can be forgiven. This is also beyond human understanding. No sin is too great. But I think repenting also means to try to turn away from the sin, and do it no more; which you can do with God's help.

Tarzan...

Perhaps the people that wrote that recovery thing, were members of a church that consisted of people who had no real love or respect for God, but were going to church as social hour or as some duty, not really ever going to worship God. There are so many places like this. There are some churches full of hypocrites and phonies. Say one thing; do another. They are everywhere. Perhaps this is what was referred to in that "recovery" thing you posted. That would turn away many people who were really searching for truth. btw...I doubt the red paint your girlfriend was doused with, hurt quite as badly as being ripped limb from limb or greeting a strange new world, only to be beaten to death with surgical instruments or drowned. Think about it. Have you no conscience?

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

p.s. Joe

People who are truly sorry and wish to be forgiven, will change their ways. (I just read my post and thought I needed to clarify)

-- cin (cinloo@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

cin-

"Perhaps the people that wrote that recovery thing, were members of a church that consisted of people who had no real love or respect for God, but were going to church as social hour or as some duty, not really ever going to worship God."

Maybe, maybe not. They seemed to believe that they were sincere Christians. If they didn't truly believe, why would losing their faith cause them enough emotional turmoil to form a support group? While we're on the subject, here's a link to a man who was a minister, who wrote inspiration music, who believed with every fiber of his inner being, but who, after long, unflinching, intellectual search, became an atheist. He mourned the loss of his faith and his former life once he came to the conclusion that there is no god.

http://www.infidels.org/org/ffrf/lfif/

"Have you no conscience? "

Have you no further arguments?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 19, 2000.

For those of you who find it offensive behavior that someone would post such a controversial thread in the middle of Holy Week. May I suggest that he has not forced you to click on the thread and read it. If the subject offends you as a Christian, skip it. This way you'll be sure that "Satan" is not going to tempt YOU. The fact that you protest such a topic suggest that you are trying hard to influence others with your own beliefs. If that's what your aim is, then come right out and say it. Otherwise, you're like anyone else who attempts to shut up anyone with whom you don't agree. Nice try, but it doesn't work. You'll have to use your brain and logic and come up with plausible counter-arguments.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 19, 2000.

ANNA LIES, whatever your handle/coverup name is....

Why are you so down on everybody? You seem to have just began posting (yeah right, wink).

You are correct for those who find it 'offensive' we dont have to look, but this is UNCENSORED. Which part of that dont cha git?

Being that it is uncensored, we therefore are entitled to our own opinions, and able to FREELY express them.

If you have a problem with that, oh well.

As for pushing our religious/non-religious views, BS, you are simply a troll incognito attempting to disrupt.

Rant off.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 19, 2000.

Dancr,

If "holy week" bothers you, how about "one week before Easter" or "5 days before Good Friday"? Would that change your position?

You said,

"I'm going to bet that Tarzan didn't even know that it was "holy week"."

I dunno. It seems to me you'd have to have more than a passing knowledge of/ interest in Christianity to get material from a website like this. Heck, I'm a Christian and I don't know where any are, much less any Bhuddist (sic?) or Hindu websites. So I'd bet Tarzan did know what he was doing, although obviously I don't really know it for a fact.

As far as what "holy week" goes, people start preparing for Easter at different times. Catholics for example, begin getting ready for Easter on Ash Wednesday, more than a month earlier. However, some people see particular significance in the week before Easter (beginning with Palm Sunday). The week sort of shows how fleeting human fame can be. Sunday, you're being welcomed with open arms into Jerusalem, on Friday you're being tacked to the cross. A 15 minutes of fame long before Andy Warhol thunk it up.

You also said,

"I'm not quite sure what difference it would make whether he makes his point during holy week or not

As far as any "point" he was trying to make, it obviously wouldn't make ANY difference. But as it is a time that is emotionally important to many people it's definitely RUDE to post this now. Not illegal, not immoral, just rude.

Sort of like yelling "go back to Viet Nam" to vets on Veterans' Day, or asking your best friend's widow out to dinner at his funeral (after all he's dead, and the marriage is over, right?) It may be something you *could* do, but shouldn't.

Tarzan,

This guy Link to Christian started a thread espousing his Christian beliefs right around Easter. To me, as he has started a thread on his beliefs, he should be more than willing to take abuse about them. If you read the thread, the general consensus of the posters it that he's a flaming nutcase, but no one's jumping up and down saying "oh protect the poor Christian". He asked for it he got it.

See the difference between THOSE posters criticizing Christians (and NOT getting scolded for it) and you?

Now I'll make you a deal, and WHAT a deal it is. Since there's already a thread in progress where venting on Christians right before Easter is not only acceptable but encouraged, why not post something there instead of here? Use the link. I'll even start your post for you:

"I Believe (originator of thread's handle, not a statement by you),

My name is Tarzan. I think Christianity's cr@p because..." and you take it from there. I bet you don't even pick up a single flame.

See, it's nothing against YOU, it's your actions that bother people.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2000.

Frank-

"Heck, I'm a Christian and I don't know where any are, much less any Bhuddist (sic?) or Hindu websites. So I'd bet Tarzan did know what he was doing, although obviously I don't really know it for a fact."

I found the site through the Adult Christianity web site.

"But as it is a time that is emotionally important to many people it's definitely RUDE to post this now. Not illegal, not immoral, just rude."

As an atheist, every day is emotionally important to me, because these days are all you get.

"Sort of like yelling "go back to Viet Nam" to vets on Veterans' Day,"

Actually, it's more like saying, "Some veterans were unsatisfied and feel very unhappy after their tours of duty" to a group of veterans on Veteran's Day.

"Since there's already a thread in progress where venting on Christians right before Easter is not only acceptable but encouraged, why not post something there instead of here? Use the link. I'll even start your post for you:

"I Believe (originator of thread's handle, not a statement by you),

My name is Tarzan. I think Christianity's cr@p because..." and you take it from there. I bet you don't even pick up a single flame."

I know it would be comforting for you if all non-Christians would group themselves into an ideological ghetto. However, since I started this thread for the purpose of discussing recovery from Christianity, it should be clear to you that you are actually the one who is posting "off topic" on this thread, and not me. I see no reason to post to a different thread with a different topic than the one I wish to discuss. Not all non-Christians are alike, Frank. We're actually quite individual.

"See, it's nothing against YOU, it's your actions that bother people."

Acutally, I think my actions bother YOU. There are plenty of strong Christians on TB2K that haven't even bothered to touch this thread; people like Nancy and I Believe. I suspect that you have nascent (or not so nascent) doubts about your beliefs. These doubts surface when you're confronted with someone who doesn't share those beliefs. You are so conflicted about your doubts that you must "do battle" with the unbeliever in order to prove that you are still a Christian. This is ultimately futile, however. I'll bet you've lain awake at night several times with a deep sense of longing, a "reason-shaped" hole in your heart, as it were. It's hard to face, I'm sure, so hard that you seek to censor and ridicule anyone whose beliefs are different from your own.

I'm not going away, Frank, and neither will the doubts. The more you deny them, the louder they will become. You must eventually face them. Good luck.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejungleiwithouta.net), April 20, 2000.

Tarzan said "Sort of like yelling go back to Vietnam on Veterans Day"

Free speech on : Tarzan, uncalled for, nothing much to do with this. My brother is a vietnam vet, recvd purple heart. ONLY one who came home ALIVE in all his platoon.

I used to as a 7 yr old child here my mom crying and praying for him all nite long.

So you are not going away, that is fine, free uncensored and all. But you are digging yourself in deeper...

ANY OTHER VIETNAM VETS CARE TO COMMENT ON TARZAN'S LAST POST HERE???

Being ex military, that comment was RUDEST of the RUDE.

makes me wonder who you REALLY are hiding behind that tree.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 20, 2000.

Consumer-

That was FRANK'S statement, not mine. For the record, Frank said:

"Sort of like yelling "go back to Viet Nam" to vets on Veterans' Day"

I responded by quoting Frank's statement, then saying, "Actually, it's more like saying, "Some veterans were unsatisfied and feel very unhappy after their tours of duty" to a group of veterans on Veteran's Day."

My father is a Vietnam Vet who lost both his brothers during the Tet offensive. While he, and other Vietnam vets, might be insulted by Frank's statement, they would probably agree with mine.

Once again, Frank said, "Sort of like yelling "go back to Viet Nam" to vets on Veterans' Day".

I said, "Actually, it's more like saying, "Some veterans were unsatisfied and feel very unhappy after their tours of duty" to a group of veterans on Veteran's Day."

I await your apology.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 20, 2000.

<<< Very touchy subject with me. Frank I do like your posts, but why did you use that?

Now Tarzan, I can admitt when I am wrong. But in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM do I change my stand...This was posted at the wrong time.

It appears to me that alot of Christian Bashing is going on here. IMO, I dont like it. Many have been/attempted to be nice to you in spite of it.

I am trying harder each day to not be as rude but come on, what is the point of bashing Christians?

How would you like it if we started an atheist thread? Never mind, you would, but just like here it could/would get ugly.

Frank, I agree with you mostly always, but please rethink the vietnam statement. I feel it was insensitive.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 20, 2000.

Consumer-

"It appears to me that alot of Christian Bashing is going on here."

Where have I bashed Christians? Please point it out to me, along with how a brief statement of justification.

By the way, I'm still waiting for that apology.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouat.net), April 20, 2000.

I have to agree with Tarzan. I have done more of what might be called "christian bashing" than many on this BBS. When I stepped over the line, I apologized.

But Tarzan merely brought something of interest to this board. If there were not people who experienced a sect of christianity which felt like a cult or an obsessive-compulsive disorder, these "12 steps" would not have been written.

For the christians who have not experienced cult-like behavior, God- bless-we are all so different, and there may be some perfectly sane fundamentalist sects. But you have to agree that some who call themselves christian are a little bit on the lunatic fringe.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.

FutureShock-

To be fair, there are elements of every group that are on the lunatic fringe. For instance, there's a Cardinal in the Phillipines who wants to outlaw tampons, claiming they rob a woman of her virtue. There's a group of Hindus in India who want to resurrect the old Sutee ritual, wherein widows were expected to throw themselves onto the funeral pyres of their husbands. There's a group in Portland that calls themselves VHEMt [sic], which stands for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

As humans go, we're all a bunch of mixed nuts.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 20, 2000.

I don't go out of my way to be politically correct. Nor do I go out of my way to be politically INcorrect. Weird thoughts come at ANY time.

With the above thoughts in mind, I don't think Tarzan went out of his way to be politically INcorrect in starting this thread during Holy Week. He/she ran across the article, posted it, and discussion ensued. I didn't realize this was Holy Week until someone mentioned it. I wouldn't have known today was Passover had my calendar not told me.

I guess my point is that I wonder now whether our posts will be considered less worthy based on timing. We're on a heterogeneous forum by choice, right?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 20, 2000.

Consumer,

With the Viet Nam statement, I was trying to make a point about offensive behavior without using religion, to show that it was the timing or the statement itself that was important, and not that the subject matter was Christianity. As most of the male members of my family have served in the military (actually Mom was in the service in WWII as well) I'd have to say I'm much more pro-service than otherwise. I surely didn't mean to offend you or anyone else directly. Sorry.

Tarzan,

You have to forgive me too. I've got a couple of small kids now, and see it as my job to correct their behavior when I consider it to be getting outside of society's norm. You however, aren't my child. If you want to post stuff like this right before Easter, or post on the benefits to society of slavery on Martin Luther King Day, by all means be my guest.

Good Luck in life,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2000.

consumer, you're way too defensive about this.

"I am trying harder each day to not be as rude but come on, what is the point of bashing Christians?"

I see no Christian bashing going on on this thread whatsoever. Only a different point of view from an Atheist, who's not calling you any names, or calling Christians names.

If you don't like this discussion, don't take part in it. In other words, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

Somehow I think you'll get back to me with "free speech and all". We could be cought in a loop over this.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 20, 2000.

Tarzan, you needn't apologize for anything. The piece was both funny and right on the mark. Not everyone in the world drops to their knees at the thought of holy week

cin, you little sermon is what makes me sick of Christians. I don't believe in the Christian god, so from my point of view, you are being holier-than-thou about your god, and patronizing too. If I wanted to be a Christian I don't need anyone to tell me what to do or how to do it. I've heard that crap for 60 years, and the longer I hear it, the sicker I get of it.

And as far as C. S. Lewis is concerned, he's a bore. His book about his wife Joy was the most maudlin piece of tripe I've read. Mother Theresa?? If she really cared about the poor so much, then why the hell didn't she help them have birth control so they wouldn't keep having babies.

Ann, welcome to the fray. It's refreshing to hear a voice of logic and reason appear on the scene for a change.

You who are worrying about Tarzan being disrespectful of the Christian faith are wearing blinders. Christians are constantly bashing and badgering others, but should anyone suggest the slightest criticism of their beliefs, they squall and whine about disrespect and persecution.

If your beliefs strengthen you, or help you with your life or weaknesses, fine! Goood! Wonderful!! but don't push it on the rest of the world. The happiest day of my life was when I fianlly threw off the shackles of religious superstition and became a free person.

Dancr, anyone who doesn't know it's holy week has to be living in a cave. It's been blared over every radio and TV station at least a dozen times a day.

consumer, are you a leftover from the old board, still bent on calling anyone a troll who doesn't agree with your agenda. And quit the flag waving about vets. Most of us have lots of family and friends who were veterans.

And DEmB, yes, there was a time when everyone believed the earth was flat, and you can bet your buns, if they didn't believe it, they could burn at the stake, because the church said it was flat and you'd best not suggest the truth. Christians loved to torture those who disagreed with their wrong-headed efforts at explaining the earth and the universe.

Christians were responsible for setting back the medical profession for years and years. And they did everything they could to set back science and promote hocus pocus, and they're still doing it.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 20, 2000.

Gilda:

"Dancr, anyone who doesn't know it's holy week has to be living in a cave. It's been blared over every radio and TV station at least a dozen times a day."

I live in a cave, Gilda. Do folks actually USE their radios and TV's all day long? Since you brought up TV's, however, I'd like to change the topic a bit. SO and I watched a movie last night [forgot the name] about terrorists who had developed plastic guns that could go through airport security without triggering the alarms. The son of a Navy Seal spotted the plastic gun at the airport and the plot moved on from there to hostage situations and a totally patriotic ending wherein the Navy Seals saved the kidnapped wife [mom of the boy], etc.

The movie was on public television [not cable.] The only reason I'm bringing it up is because I really expected to find it discussed today either HERE or on the EZBOARD forum due to the language that was NOT bleeped out. We're not fussy about what words are used on TV, but we had some discussions in-house of late regarding how times have changed and Doris Day and others of her generation slept in separate beds even after marriage, etc. Anyway, SO said, "Did you hear that?" I said, "Hear WHAT?" He said, "They didn't bleep out 'Fuck'." Hmmm. I began to pay more attention. We heard the non- beeped out word several times after that, as well as several others that are typically bleeped out even on cable stations.

Towards the end of the movie, the Navy Seal was face-to-face with the kidnapper of his wife. He was aiming what looked like a missle launcher at the kidnapper [hovering over the Navy Seal's wife] when the kidnapper suggested that he would NOT fire the weapon lest his wife be killed in the process. The seal replied with something like, "You've been raping my wife for weeks. In MY mind this makes her no more worthy than any other cock-sucking whore." Of course this was all a bluff on his part, but we looked at each other with question marks popping out of our eyeballs that said, "WHEN did public T.V. move along to this point, and HOW did WE miss it?"

Yep...we missed hearing of Holy Week. It seems we've missed quite a bit more than that.

-- Anita (Anita@the. cave), April 20, 2000.

No Anita, we do not watch TV all day long. We turn it on in the morning for the news and we heard a lot about holy week. I watch some of the news shows, and we heard about holy week. I don't listen to the radio, but I can tell you this, it has been taken over with religious programming and right wing talk shows. I spend part of my evenings on this board and the rest of the time watching Discovery or History Channel, or reading. Acturally I like to read and watch TV at the same time.

I love BBC, where gratefully I don't have to hear a dose of religion or religious news all day.

As far as foul language goes on TV, it bothers me not at all, and although it wasn't on TV much when my son was growing up, it still did not bother me for people to swear when he was around. One side of my family cusses like sailors, (the fun, intelligent, interesting side) the other side wouldn't say "shit" if they were choking on it, the (dour, dull, pursed-lips side). I think people make too big a deal out of swearing.

You've travelled a lot, so you probably know this, but when I was last in England, about 10 years ago, they were using "fuck" in casual conversation on TV, and no one seemed to get their shorts in a twist about it. My room mate was a devout Christian and was terribly offended by my swearing, and the swearing on TV, but this fine Christian lady, a married mother with 4 kids, wasn't at all repentent about screwing the driver of our tour bus for the whole trip. This lady also did lay counseling to parishoners having family problems. What a hoot!!!

The next time, I traveled on my own without having my speech censored by Miss Manners, the Christian Adulterer-of-the-Tour Bus. No problem with her soul of course, for she was saved, and believed in to Jesus Christ as her savior. Hellll, that's all it takes, and then you're free to burn Jews, stomp frogs, commit adultery, cheat, lie--the whole enchilada. But for shit's sake, Don't Swear.

Hey, that movie sounds like a good one. I wish you remembered the name of it.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 20, 2000.

I wish I could be more help in remembering the name of the movie, Gilda, but even SO doesn't remember. We were just kindof laying back and chillin' and checkin out what was on the TV for our viewing pleasure when this one came up. We DID notice that it was a 21st Century Fox production. Heh...We'd wondered what they were gonna do about that name. It was also circa 2000. Hope that helps.

I must confess that it took two reads for me to realize that your trip-mate was SCREWING the tour guy in the traditional sense. At first I thought she had somehow found a way to avoid paying.

Since you've moved the conversation along to sex and Christianity, [You DID do that, didn't you?], I have a few questions in that regard. When I was 14 or so, I attended a youth-group with a friend of mine from her church. I don't really remember the name of the church, but it wasn't one of the mainstream Christian sects like Episcopalian, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.. Anyway, they had a youth group that sponsored activities for young people like hay-rides, etc., and it was fun to partake.

I heard from this group [and the parents that volunteered] that dancing was NOT appropriate. My first question addresses WHY dancing is inappropriate behavior. [This is NOT a question for YOU, Gilda. I'm addressing the Christian audience on this forum with this one.] It seemed as though dancing was considered to be too suggestive a behavior in a courtship environment. HOWEVER, on those hayrides I attended, I didn't see anyone blink an eye when Tom and Mary [fictious names] went off alone in the woods and were gone for several hours. I've always wondered about this one.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 20, 2000.

Gilda:

I know how you can get when you getup your ire, but did you really have to take a shot at Mother Theresa?

hahahahahahahaha!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 20, 2000.

>>The happiest day of my life was when I fianlly threw off the shackles of religious superstition and became a free person.<<

gilda, you display the shackles that bind you with every post you make to a Christian-oriented thread. I don't envy you your obsession.

Elbow

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 20, 2000.

Tarzan, I did apologize, but the post did not fully come out, for what reason I do not know.

Gilda, as for being a 'leftover from the old TB who called everyone a Troll who did not agree with me', please provide the link.

And being that I am trying to not be rude, I wont resort to 'name calling' with you. PROVIDE THE LINKS.

As for the christian bashing, I stated IMHO, and I getting a bit tired of trying to apologize because of making a True statement. If others cant see it, oh well.

As for leaving, getting out of the kitchen, I refuse.

It was comments such as this at old TB that caused me many times to refrain, thank heavens this is now free speech, and I have gotten to the point where it is ok to agree to disagree.

I await your apology Gilda, or your links.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 21, 2000.

Anita it seems that no Christians are answering your question about dancing being inappropriate. So I'll tell you how it was at our church. I went to a Southern Missionary Baptist Church when I was a kid, and dancing was quite frowned up. Naturally I asked why, and got a variety of answers. First, it was the devils way of getting you "sexed up" to go farther down the road to lust and sin. Also, the lyrics to dance music were often suggestive of sex. Also, rubbing bodies together was promiscuous behavior. It was a sin, and on and on and on. That right there was enough to show the churches obession with sex.

Say did you ever hear the joke about why Baptists don't do *IT* standing up? Because they're afraid someone will think they are dancing. You probably with some sort of Pentacostal group oon your youth-group trip.

My best friend was raised in a Pentacostal church and our complete and utter disregard for the Christian religion is the result of our earlier brain washing, which luckily did not take. Maybe some other people will no more about the dancing "sins," but this was from our church's perspective.

consumer, I didn't mean you were the *only* person on TB that called everyone a troll that disagreed with them. All I was asking is if you were *one* of those that did constantly call anyone a troll who disagreed with them about Y2K. There were dozens of the old guard who couldn't stand disagreement and called everyone a troll. There are dozens of posts that prove this point, but as to me calling you one of the specific people on TB, no I wasn't. But to suggest that someone is a troll is, IMHO, typical of the lefovers from the old forum that now post on EZ board, where they don't allow dissenting opinions. It was merely a rhetorical question.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 21, 2000.

Gilda,

Perhaps I read your post incorrectly, if so, I do apologize. No, I did not call everyone who disagreed w/me a troll.

I got flamed there many times, so I just lurked alot, couldnt take the heat...lol

As I said, older now, wiser now, wont get outta kitchen...dont mind the heat, I try now to ignore those who are ruthless w/me.

Been known to 'lose it' here, when really shoved hard.

Gilda, thank you for clarifying for me.

I totally agree w/you on ALL your posts concening Elian G. And I read your post about not being lonely. I enjoyed it.

regards,

----consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), April 21, 2000.

Tarzan said: "give me one good reason why I should show any regard for your feelings whatsoever? "

And Frank replied: "How about to show you aren't a part of the lowest common denominator?"

So, Frank, you're saying that Christians are part of the lowest common denominator? Too many of us don't seem to show much sensitivity to other religions; at least, not anywhere near the level of sensitivity you appear to be demanding for our own.

You certainly don't speak for me, Mister.

-- Bob the Methodist (offended@christian.org), April 23, 2000.

gilda said

>>The happiest day of my life was when I fianlly threw off the shackles of religious superstition and became a free person.<<

Poor gilda. first it was religion. then it was y2k. What a gullible soul. What will capture your small mind next?

-- (@ .), April 23, 2000.

Thanks for the dancing insight, Gilda. I don't know what Pentecostal includes. The minister was VERY nice, however, and I liked him very much. As discussed on another thread, I was a "late bloomer". I was talking with the minister one day and mentioned something perhaps akin to how I wished I looked like some of the other girls my age. He said, "Anita! Women who develop later have better figures and maintain them longer than those who matured early." He seems to have been right.

I think I liked this guy because he LIVED his faith. He knew I came from a nonreligious family, but he liked me anyway. When the neighborhood changed [common in that era as a black family moved in and the white folks fled], he encouraged the church members to bring a cake or pie over to show the new neighbors they were welcomed. The congregation ran him out of town on a rail over that one. I'll never know what happened to him.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 23, 2000.

Just got back from church on a beautiful Easter Sunday. I prayed for all those who have the need to bash Christians.

-- Mister C. (mrc@Jesus.Saves), April 23, 2000.

Mr.C,

How was your rite of fertility??? Did you find a lot of EGGS????

(snicker)

watchin' the neighbor...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 23, 2000.

Dog, it would seem that including 'desert' in your address might be indicative of the state of your soul. It's easy for all to see at which consciousness level you function. If you think you're funny, that's really sad. Not everyone is obsessed with your Ishtar/fertility stuff. By your mocking of others cherished beliefs, you judge yourself.

As the devil said in Tales From The Hood,'Welcome to Hell Muthafucka!'

-- Jason (jason@golden.fleece), April 23, 2000.

Doesn't it feel lonely to be ridiculed, Jason? Who gives a shit what you think, Jason? I don't.

Glad you had a happy easter. It's just another regular day for many of us.

-- (fleecing@the.jasons), April 23, 2000.

Had a wonderful time at church on a beautiful Easter Sunday. I prayed for all those (Christians and otherwise) who have the need to bash Christians/Muslims/Buddhists/Jews/etc.

-- Bob the Methodist (offended@christian.org), April 24, 2000.

Jason:

Are these the folks you do not want us to bash:

"When the neighborhood changed [common in that era as a black family moved in and the white folks fled], he encouraged the church members to bring a cake or pie over to show the new neighbors they were welcomed. The congregation ran him out of town on a rail over that one. I'll never know what happened to him" (posted on a thread by Anita).

Listen, Jason, I have not seen you post here before, and while it is certainly good to see new people, if you have lurked at all you know that we are going to call a spade a spade, and will point out any contradictions or hypocracies we see, especially from religious freaks claiming to know the "One way". Sorry, fella. That's life on the forum.

Mr. C and Bob the Methodist:

When people stand in judgement of other people and when people hold the idea that we are going to someplace called hell if we do not believe as they do, WE ARE GOING TO CALL THEM ON IT! GET IT?

You can call it bashing if you want, but when you attack, and when you condemn, you better believe people are going to fight back. Nothing reeks more than spiritual pride(Pride comes before the fall) and anyone, anyone at all who claims to know who is "saved" and who is not "saved" is suffering from the highest form of spiritiual pride.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 24, 2000.

Future Shock,

Why do you and others insist in lumping all people who consider themselves Christians into the same category? In reality there is a long continuium ranging from fanatical-fundamentalist all the way to beyond-reform. Do you really think that the racist people cited in the earlier quote represent all Christians? Hardly.

You stated: "When people stand in judgement of other people and when people hold the idea that we are going to someplace called hell if we do not believe as they do, WE ARE GOING TO CALL THEM ON IT! GET IT?" I'm not judging whether or not you are going to heaven or hell, and I doubt that most of the people in my congregation would either, so why attack us? I recently joined a small non-denominational Christian church in a semi-rural area, after many years of not attending church. I don't see evidence of anyone there judging others or sanctimoniously thinking that they are better than others or will get to heaven faster than others. They aren't evangelical, either. No knocking on doors or accosting people in airport terminals. Information is available, they all seem happy and full of joy, and people are free to come or not according to their own wishes. It's no more correct to attack Christians as a group than other religious groups, or a specific racial or cultural group.

Across the street from me lives a large family of Mormons. They consider themselves Christian, but a lot of Christian groups don't agree. I don't worry about such matters, as they are a wholesome family with the kind of children that most people would envy. They must be doing something right.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 24, 2000.

Jason,

My soul is fine and well thank you, and hey, thanks for asking. it is a major bummer when people do not agree with you isnt it? Especially from a religious standpoint... I just get tired of people "force- feeding" the issue.

I have a fine relationship with my creator. I just don't feel it is my place to try to influence other people with dogma and diatribe, and what "my interpretation" of the good book is trying to say. I also have a problem "paying my way to Heaven"...

Issues with "modern holidays" just crack me up. The most religious people in the world celebrating a holiday that has pagan overtones...

(snicker)

growlin' at the JW...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 24, 2000.

How the Christians stole the Easter holiday

Christians celebrate the annual festival commemorating the alleged resurrection of Jesus between March 22 and April 25. For centuries, Christian "scholars" have debated the date of Jesus' crucifixion (cruci-fiction?). Not even Christians know when he died. There's not a fragment of evidence that a Jesus was crucified on Mt. Calvary or anywhere else (much less have evidence for his existence).

The Jews celebrate "Passover" at around this time, from an Exodus story where God passes over the "chosen ones" on his way to kill the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 11, 12).

However, people had celebrated Easter during the vernal equinox long before Judaism, Christianity and their superstitious myths.

Nothing about the Easter bunny or colored eggs derives from Christianity, nor will you find them mentioned in the Bible.

The origin of the name Easter is unknown although Scholars suspect that the derivation comes from Eastre, the Anglo-Saxon name of a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility, to whom people dedicated a month corresponding to April. Her festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox. The tradition of Eastre survive in the Easter rabbit, a symbol of fertility, and in colored easter eggs, originally painted with bright colors to represent the sunlight of spring, and used in Easter-egg rolling contests or given as gifts. Even the early Egyptians and Persians dyed eggs in spring colors and gave them to friends.

Such festivals were common in ancient religions, including the Greek legend of the return of Persephone, daughter of Demeter, goddess of the earth, from the underworld to the light of day. Her return symbolized to the Greeks the resurrection of life in the spring after the desolation of winter.

By contrast, the Christians celebrate a tortured man dying on a piece of lumber and Jews celebrate the passover of a god on his way toward killing infants. How morbid. Instead of celebrating death, why not opt for the original Easter and admire the coming of spring, and the renewal of life?

LINK

-- -@- (question@everything.xxx), April 24, 2000.

The story of Jesus is a reality within, that you are a good person and by connecting with that, you can restore yourself to rightness within. Since it transcends ego, many times this knowledge is refused by us, not understood, and comes to us when we least expect it, through extremes of suffering (the Cross), which imparts knowledge of our humanity and connection with others and our Source by stripping away our pride and need for vindication of our ego, which never ends. This knowledge is grace and love. (my unsolicited opinion)

There is some evidence that makes it reasonable to suppose that images of the afterlife come from the re-telling, throughout the ages, of Near Death Experiences, which are some of the most powerful experiences known to man, personal sagas of Heaven, Hell, and places between. Virtually 100% of people having these experiences come back saying that now they do not just Believe, they Know.

John Allegro wrote one of the most interesting books in the world on the origins and sources of religion- The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross (1970). Allegro was one of a team of researchers hired by the State of Israel and the British government to decipher the "Dead Sea Scrolls" when they were discovered in the 1950's. Allegro was hired because he was a biblical scholar and was familiar with almost every single major language including Sumerian, Egyptian, Cuneiform, Hebrew. His ultimate conclusion (and he was kicked off the team for his opinions) was that Jesus was a Mushroom (Amanita Muscaria) consumed by the Essenes and covered up to keep the Roman authorities in the dark about the fertility cult of the Essenes. ("Jesus" in Sumerian means "mushroom".)

With enough knowledge out there, people can return back to a state of self-interpretation of spirituality instead of being told what God wants or has said.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 24, 2000.

Hi, Gilda, you said, "Dancr, anyone who doesn't know it's holy week has to be living in a cave. It's been blared over every radio and TV station at least a dozen times a day."

Hi from my cave, baby! Even as a reformed Presbyterian turned Episcopalian, I didn't know that last week was called "Holy Week". And I haven't heard that phrase mentioned on National Public Radio, I'm happy to say; and since I don't pollute my mind with television, I wouldn't have heard it there, either. For what it's worth. But even if I had known this fact, I don't think it affects my beliefs on one's right to express themselves. And I doubt there are all that many christians who knwo all the holy days of other religions, do you think, or try to be especially respectful of others' feelings on those "special" days?

You are SO RIGHT about the right wing religious types taking over the radio. I've been learning more than I wanted to know on this subject recently. My favorite radio station, KSMF, the "rythm and news" half of our public radio station, started getting fuzzy, with words popping into the broadcast from another station a couple of years ago. We soon learned that the local baptist church had starting "jamming" our station (it isn't a radical right station, so I guess they felt threatened by us free thinker types) by overpowering it with "american family radio". This station (AFM) is apparently on a crusade to eliminate all the public radio stations all over the country (or the world??) and replacing it with "easy listening, rock and roll style, religious 'music'". When our station manager objected to the jamming, the FCC told him to take our station off the air, because KSMF was a translator station, while the religious stuff was a "radio" station". I still don't understand how the afm group is any less of a translator station than KSMF, since it comes to us from Alabama or Georgia, or one of those right wing places, via a satellite to the local baptist church, thence to a mountaintop translator, and down to any quaking airhead who wants to listen to predigested religious pablum.

The station manager also tells us that all our other translator stations, along with those all over the country are being atacked by this type of slimola stuff.

I'd really like to hear one of you "christian" , holier than thou types eplain in what way it is "christian", in what way it follows the "golden rule" to come into an area and basically steal a functioning airwave in order to spew out this crap (or to steal the ariwave for any other reason)

You also said, "And DEmB, yes, there was a time when everyone believed the earth was flat, and you can bet your buns, if they didn't believe it, they could burn at the stake, because the church said it was flat and you'd best not suggest the truth. Christians loved to torture those who disagreed with their wrong-headed efforts at explaining the earth and the universe."

right on! I think there are probably still plenty of christians who'd be first in line to torture "heretics" if it were still the popular thing to do.

" This lady also did lay counseling to parishoners having family problems". Of course she did, and that's why she was fucking the tourbus driver. You have to know how to do it to counsel others in the technique. I could use some lay counseling about now myself.

Anita, since you brought up youth groups, going off into the woods, etc. I will tell you about my Episcopalian youth group activities. This was probably the most spiritual part of my involvement in the church, even including my standing as a Thurifer (the cute little (?) altar boy who sends all the incense smoke wafting over the priest, the other altar boys, the congregation, and anyone else who is not quick enough to get out of his way--yes, "his way". There were no "altar girls" allowed at that time, unfortunately.

The ones who could have been altar girls, had it been allowed, WERE allowed to attend the youth group meetings once or twice a week at the church. There we all got to hear such inspiational counselling as "having sex without procration is no better than mutal masturbation". What a riot! All of us altar boys, and the altar (not) girls looked back and forth at each other, thinking, "what's your point, Padre?"

After youth group, there was always a session of "youth grope" in the church parking lot. That's where things often got very spiritual, indeed. Ah, the memories!

I actually liked the priest, father Rogers; he was a very intellectual, well spoken guy. But he had seven or eight daughters, each named "Mary". Is that very religious, or very weird?

Well, hi, everybody; I spent a wonderful easter weekend taking my grandkids to an easter egg hunt and visiting my creator's grave. The bummer is that some VERY low life keeps stealing everyone's flowers off the gravesites. The upper is that the relatives of the "new girl" who is resting next to my dad, placed a part of their bouquet of flowers for their mom or grandma (I've never met these folks) in the vase on my dad's grave. I was truly touched, to have a seen such a thoughful act from a (group of?" strangers. I thought about leaving them a thank you note, but decided to leave part of the bouquet my sister and I brought for my "creator" in the vase on the new girl's grave marker.

Happy spring, you guys! There are still some awesome people out there! Pax vobiscum and all that.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 24, 2000.

Hi, Gilda, you said, "Dancr, anyone who doesn't know it's holy week has to be living in a cave. It's been blared over every radio and TV station at least a dozen times a day."

Hi from my cave, baby! Even as a reformed Presbyterian turned Episcopalian, I didn't know that last week was called "Holy Week". And I haven't heard that phrase mentioned on National Public Radio, I'm happy to say; and since I don't pollute my mind with television, I wouldn't have heard it there, either. For what it's worth. But even if I had known this fact, I don't think it affects my beliefs on one's right to express themselves. And I doubt there are all that many christians who knwo all the holy days of other religions, do you think, or try to be especially respectful of others' feelings on those "special" days?

You are SO RIGHT about the right wing religious types taking over the radio. I've been learning more than I wanted to know on this subject recently. My favorite radio station, KSMF, the "rythm and news" half of our public radio station, started getting fuzzy, with words popping into the broadcast from another station a couple of years ago. We soon learned that the local baptist church had starting "jamming" our station (it isn't a radical right station, so I guess they felt threatened by us free thinker types) by overpowering it with "american family radio". This station (AFM) is apparently on a crusade to eliminate all the public radio stations all over the country (or the world??) and replacing it with "easy listening, rock and roll style, religious 'music'". When our station manager objected to the jamming, the FCC told him to take our station off the air, because KSMF was a translator station, while the religious stuff was a "radio" station". I still don't understand how the afm group is any less of a translator station than KSMF, since it comes to us from Alabama or Georgia, or one of those right wing places, via a satellite to the local baptist church, thence to a mountaintop translator, and down to any quaking airhead who wants to listen to predigested religious pablum.

The station manager also tells us that all our other translator stations, along with those all over the country are being atacked by this type of slimola stuff.

I'd really like to hear one of you "christian" , holier than thou types eplain in what way it is "christian", in what way it follows the "golden rule" to come into an area and basically steal a functioning airwave in order to spew out this crap (or to steal the ariwave for any other reason)

You also said, "And DEmB, yes, there was a time when everyone believed the earth was flat, and you can bet your buns, if they didn't believe it, they could burn at the stake, because the church said it was flat and you'd best not suggest the truth. Christians loved to torture those who disagreed with their wrong-headed efforts at explaining the earth and the universe."

right on! I think there are probably still plenty of christians who'd be first in line to torture "heretics" if it were still the popular thing to do.

" This lady also did lay counseling to parishoners having family problems". Of course she did, and that's why she was fucking the tourbus driver. You have to know how to do it to counsel others in the technique. I could use some lay counseling about now myself.

Anita, since you brought up youth groups, going off into the woods, etc. I will tell you about my Episcopalian youth group activities. This was probably the most spiritual part of my involvement in the church, even including my standing as a Thurifer (the cute little (?) altar boy who sends all the incense smoke wafting over the priest, the other altar boys, the congregation, and anyone else who is not quick enough to get out of his way--yes, "his way". There were no "altar girls" allowed at that time, unfortunately.

The ones who could have been altar girls, had it been allowed, WERE allowed to attend the youth group meetings once or twice a week at the church. There we all got to hear such inspiational counselling as "having sex without procration is no better than mutal masturbation". What a riot! All of us altar boys, and the altar (not) girls looked back and forth at each other, thinking, "what's your point, Padre?"

After youth group, there was always a session of "youth grope" in the church parking lot. That's where things often got very spiritual, indeed. Ah, the memories!

I actually liked the priest, father Rogers; he was a very intellectual, well spoken guy. But he had seven or eight daughters, each named "Mary". Is that very religious, or very weird?

Well, hi, everybody; I spent a wonderful easter weekend taking my grandkids to an easter egg hunt and visiting my creator's grave. The bummer is that some VERY low life keeps stealing everyone's flowers off the gravesites. The upper is that the relatives of the "new girl" who is resting next to my dad, placed a part of their bouquet of flowers for their mom or grandma (I've never met these folks) in the vase on my dad's grave. I was truly touched, to have a seen such a thoughful act from a (group of?) strangers. I thought about leaving them a thank you note, but decided to leave part of the bouquet my sister and I brought for my "creator" in the vase on the new girl's grave marker.

Happy spring, you guys! There are still some awesome people out there! Pax vobiscum and all that.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.neet), April 24, 2000.

FutureShock said:

"Mr. C and Bob the Methodist:"

"When people stand in judgement of other people and when people hold the idea that we are going to someplace called hell if we do not believe as they do, WE ARE GOING TO CALL THEM ON IT! GET IT?"

That's very interesting. I think I objected to anyone who bashes anyone else's belief system (or lack thereof). I thought I was calling for tolerance, not for more bashing of Christian-bashers. Did you miss that?

FutureShock said:

"You can call it bashing if you want, but when you attack, and when you condemn, you better believe people are going to fight back."

Really? Tell me who I attacked or bashed. Could you point that out to me? I don't think I told anyone they were going to Hell. Maybe you read someone else's post and confused me with it. If so, then I'll gladly accept your apology.

-- Bob the Methodist (offended@christian.org), April 24, 2000.

I think Dr. Shrink said it rather well in an earlier post on this thread:

<>

-- Dr. Shrink (drshrink@shrink.asc), April 15, 2000.

Thanks, Doc! It would be interesting if you would care to comment more on the apparent motivations of some of the more negative posters on this thread.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 24, 2000.

Darn HTML! Was that God's mercy or Satan's meddling? Here goes another try.

I think Dr. Shrink said it rather well in an earlier post on this thread:

"Why do you have the need to ridicule Christians, especially this close to Easter. Does it stem from some inner fears or needs? Unless they are actively hounding you, trying to convert you, why should you be concerned at all? If someone is trying to evangalize you, why not just put them off courteously? Frankly, I don't understand why some people, often highly intelligent and intellectual, have this need to attack sincere Christians and Christianity. If their faith doesn't cause you some sort of insecurity at a deeper level, then why not leave them alone and treat them with the same respect that you would like to receive?"

-- Dr. Shrink (drshrink@shrink.asc), April 15, 2000.

Thanks, Doc! It would be interesting if you would care to comment more on the apparent motivations of some of the more negative posters on this thread.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 24, 2000.

I have received many emails from people claiming to be intellectuals. They think their penchant for pointing out the logic errors in the Bible amounts to a justification of atheism. This page is my reply to all these clever people, they can take their syllogisms and go to Hell for all I care...

You think that pointing out contradictions in the Bible makes you clever do you? Think that makes you wise? Ha! You atheists will burn in Hell due to your smugness. Well, I have something for you, something that will shock you all. I quote Isaiah 29:14, "the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." Do you know what that means you atheist fools? God will take vengeance upon you for your detestable habits! He loathes those of you who investigate, analyse, experiment and theorise.

As all us Christians know the message of the Gospel will find no place in the hearts of intelligent men. I quote 1 Corinthians 1: 20- 29:

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. "Brothers, think what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

The above quotation should strike fear into the heart of every intellectual. Do you not understand Christianity now? You intelligent people cannot be Christians because you will not understand the inconsistencies in the Bible. You think they denigrate the validity of the Gospel, how wrong you are. Can you not see that God put them there to confuse you and appeal to the foolish? How I laugh at you. Understand this: "The foolishness of God (his Christian followers) is wiser than man's wisdom (atheism derived from intellectual contemplation)."

The followers of Christ ended the detestable practices of philosophy and science for 1,000 years. Initiating a cunning strategy of burning anyone who questioned theological and natural FACTS we managed to suppress those who challenged the authority of the Church. Christianity triumphed and reigned supreme until the arrival of evil men such as Galileo, Nietzsche (left) and Karl Marx. But where are these men now? Dead!

We Christians will once again reclaim the earth. Already we have the USA within our grasp. The noble campaign to stop the mendacious teaching of the theory of evolution is enjoying success in the USA. If that strategy can be expanded to ban other pernicious subjects, such as philosophy and physics, we can triumph. Schools should instruct children, not educate them. Just look at all the harm that has been caused by learning. I cannot think of one positive thing that has come as a result of educating people.

One day the world will again be ruled by the "foolish" and the "weak"! Do you hear that intellectuals?

-- Fool for Christ (christian@anti-intellecutal.com), April 24, 2000.

I have received many emails from people claiming to be intellectuals. They think their penchant for pointing out the logic errors in the Bible amounts to a justification of atheism. This is my reply to all these clever people, they can take their syllogisms and go to Hell for all I care...

You think that pointing out contradictions in the Bible makes you clever do you? Think that makes you wise? Ha! You atheists will burn in Hell due to your smugness. Well, I have something for you, something that will shock you all. I quote Isaiah 29:14, "the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." Do you know what that means you atheist fools? God will take vengeance upon you for your detestable habits! He loathes those of you who investigate, analyse, experiment and theorise.

As all us Christians know the message of the Gospel will find no place in the hearts of intelligent men. I quote 1 Corinthians 1: 20- 29:

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. "Brothers, think what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

The above quotation should strike fear into the heart of every intellectual. Do you not understand Christianity now? You intelligent people cannot be Christians because you will not understand the inconsistencies in the Bible. You think they denigrate the validity of the Gospel, how wrong you are. Can you not see that God put them there to confuse you and appeal to the foolish? How I laugh at you. Understand this: "The foolishness of God (his Christian followers) is wiser than man's wisdom (atheism derived from intellectual contemplation)."

The followers of Christ ended the detestable practices of philosophy and science for 1,000 years. Initiating a cunning strategy of burning anyone who questioned theological and natural FACTS we managed to suppress those who challenged the authority of the Church. Christianity triumphed and reigned supreme until the arrival of evil men such as Galileo, Nietzsche (left) and Karl Marx. But where are these men now? Dead!

We Christians will once again reclaim the earth. Already we have the USA within our grasp. The noble campaign to stop the mendacious teaching of the theory of evolution is enjoying success in the USA. If that strategy can be expanded to ban other pernicious subjects, such as philosophy and physics, we can triumph. Schools should instruct children, not educate them. Just look at all the harm that has been caused by learning. I cannot think of one positive thing that has come as a result of educating people.

One day the world will again be ruled by the "foolish" and the "weak"! Do you hear that intellectuals?

-- Fool for Christ (christian@anti-intellecutal.com), April 24, 2000.

Bob the Methodist:

Yep. You are right. I was thinking of someone else. I admit my error and apologize.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 24, 2000.

Fool for Christ...

Are you done now? Do you feel better? If so, good... if not, WHY NOT?

You can't stand it when someone questions you can you? You cannot believe when someone else "doesn't get it"... Maybe you should look inward and maybe TRY to see where they are coming from, or have experienced.

My opinion is definitely different than yours... My relationship with the creator, Jehovah, Yahweh, GOD, YHWH... please choose your favorite, is much different than your is as well. I just hate it when someone goes smug with me. Your religion is not the perfect religion for all people... mine isn't either... but when you go smug and tell me I am going to hell for what I believe, you are judging me...

Stones anyone???

(snicker)

loungin' on the epoch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 25, 2000.

Mr. Dog,

Much as I hate to say it, I believe the Fool for Christ was satirizing. He was just a bit over the top. Well, there was truth in his post: it was between the quotation marks.

His message appears to be directed at atheists and intellectuals. You don't fall into the former category, though I cannot speak to the latter. So what got your hackles up?

Elbow

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 25, 2000.

I agree with LBO, "Fool for Christ" 's post is a satire, and a witty one. I got a good chuckle.

-- Ann A. Lyze (@ .), April 25, 2000.

FutureShock:

Accepted. :)

-- Bob the Methodist (peaceful@christian.org), April 26, 2000.

Fool, I am damned glad my God is a different God than yours. You sound like the 60's Preachers, Hell and Damnation. You will go to Hell for listening to Rock music. My God, is an AWESOME GOD, he reigns over Heaven and Earth. He said "Lift a Joyful Noise to the Heavens, and that Rock Band is blasting their hearts away, with Joyful praises, to the Heavens. Guess Elvis would be an outcast also.

-- My God (is@wesomeGod.com), April 27, 2000.

MY God would send Foolish to this hell.

-- (devil@cant.get.me), April 27, 2000.