Love & Marriage, and a difference of opinion. Of course! (Con't.) : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

This thread is a compilation of two threads we're participating in, and I don't want to follow the conversations that way. For those of you who haven't seen or been involved in them, it started with Mr Bachelor posting the following: (BTW, Mr Bachelor, have you met Eve yet? She's a very nice single lady, and I don't think she has any children living at home :o)

Does Lady Logic post here anymore? I see something from April 11, but today's the 14th. I guess being "in love" does amazing things. Too bad most people wreck it by getting married.

-- bachelor (bachelor@keepinglove.alive), April 14, 2000.


Bachelor, Marriage (IMHO) doesn't wreck a relationship; it enhances it. I can love a man a whole lot, but until we make that legal commitment, I will always hold back.


I have the ability to love.............................................


(So does Mr Polly.)

I can love someone................................................... .

to the depths of my soul.

Why would I give that part of me....................................... ......................

to a man.............................................

who isn't willing to do the same?

How is that willingness demonstrated? Can giving someone money demonstrate it?


Can screwing someone's brains out demonstrate it?


Can a combination of those two --

and a legal,

and moral,

and spiritual,

comittment demonstrate it?

Heck, yes!

Marriage is the only way.............................

I can show Mr Polly,

and he can show me,

that we intend to work everything out together....................

to walk through life unafraid,

of what will happen tomorrow;

because we know one things for certain.......................................

the other will be there.

I'll give myself to him,

in every way humanly imaginable....

and he's promised to do the same.

We're looking in the same direction,

and all good things in life seem possible now.

But, it's that piece of paper.....................................

................................that makes him my man,...................

that makes him my companion,

...................that makes him my husband.........................

that makes me his wife........................................(I LOVE that word: Wife.)

No, Bachelor, marriage doesn't diminish a relationship, it allows it to be nutured, to grow, and let's two people love each other unconditionally.

Of course, if you're happy being a bachelor; carry on! ;o)


-- (Ladylogic@...), April 14, 2000.


Ladylogic, Marriage doesn't always change a relationship for the worse, but it often does. Men and women view many things differently. Marriage is natural and beneficial for women, unless the guy is a jerk. It may or may not be so for a man. I've been married a couple of times, and "para-married" several others. I must honestly say that the best times were over soon after marriage. I'm happy for you and all those happily married people. Just don't think that it always makes a relationship better. From the perspective of many men, it doesn't. But, since they love their wife and family, they "adjust" and stick it out, at least until the kids are grown. If you would like to learn something about the "whys" of men's attitudes about a lot of things, read Warren Farrell's book "Why Men Are The Way They Are". I love you ladies, maybe too much, but don't try to tell me that marriage enhances a relationship for men. For some it does, for a lot more it doesn't. As Warren Farrell says, marriage is the fulfillment of a woman's dreams, and the end of a man's.

Best of Luck

-- Bachelor (bachelor@keepinglove.alive), April 14, 2000.


Bach, You said, "It may or may not be so for a man." Statistically, men who are married DO live longer, but I guess whether or not that's a GOOD thing depends on the marriage...


-- Someone (, April 14, 2000.


Bachelor, As a man, I KNOW the fact is real simple. Most guys who don't want to marry just want to keep their options open in case someone better or better looking comes along. That way, as the years go by, and his wife's looks fade, and his ego bothers him as HIS looks fade, he gets to easily indulge his vanity by dumping his wife for some firmer bodied twenty something half his age without the trama and cost of a divorce. Real simple and selfish and shallow -- period. Of course, it works the same for the "climbers" on the female side too. Basically the "always looking for a better deal" character trait knows no gender boundary.

All the talk about marriage diminishing his happiness is really just a cover for marriage revealing the shallowness of one's character.

Just admit you're an opportunistic jerk looking for the best Ms. Right Now until Ms Better comes along.

I just hope the decent women don't let their heart lull them into settling for someone who will "trade them in" for a "newer model" like a used car. Hey, to each their own. It's just too bad too many women go for it -- and too bad so many men are so shallow and lacking in character. Too bad the "better dealer" types never realize that if they just cultivated the "deal" they HAVE in their current spouse, that deep love for each other can not only conquer anything -- but give them the deepest contentment and satisfaction they are capable of knowing -- which they simply won't find if the have one half of their heart focused on their Ms OK for right now -- but have the other half of their heart always looking for something better, or newer or more novel -- because they lack the ability or desire or both to fully, deeply commune and connect with another human being -- heart to heart, soul to soul -- and every other way that makes life together so wonderful for the "till death do we part" folks.

Maybe some of the guys having their mid life crises' will have the courage to face their fears and overcome their vanity -- and know a deeper pleasure with their wife whom they are devoted to heart and soul -- than their dick will ever know with someone half their age. But then, I guess we all have a different level of maturity, character and wisdom. Choices and capabilities. Some just don't have the capacity to understand what I've written -- those that do know the truth of my words. Doesn't matter to me what you think. I agree with Lady Logic 100%. Always have, always will. Wouldn't have it any other way.

BTW, don't bother telling me how great your character is or whatever rationalization you might use to con women or yourself. Actions speak louder than words ever will. Always have, always will.

-- Mr Polly (, April 14, 2000.


BTW, For any of you sick people without a life who were wondering, I've not into S&M. Never have been, never will be. Not that it's any of your business mind you. Furthermore, FWIW, I would never, ever intentionally hurt or harm Laura in any way shape or form. In fact, just the idea makes me sick to my stomach. Fact is, what I AM going to do is this:

Love her and love her and love her and love her....

and love her and love her and love her and love her....

forever matter what....

And you know what? I couldn't care less what any of you people here think. I just know that my walking away with ALL the goodies! Any troll post are just either folks who are jealous or wish they had the kind of life we will enjoy.

Good bye...have a nice life....if you can...or not! *sigh*

'nuff said.


-- Mr Polly (, April 14, 2000.


"ALL RIGHT, I'VE HAD IT! I'm so sick of people complaining about my posts I could just throw up. It's gonna be REAL hard for me, but I'm not gonna post ANYTHING for a week, and I'll decide at that time if I EVER want to post anything again.

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 07, 2000."

Okay, it's been a week, you can come back now, but please, try to keep that diarrhea of the mouth problem under control, will ya?

-- (pepto-bismol@anyone.?), April 14, 2000.


Mr Polly, Take it easy. Relax. Take a Valium.

Apparently I pushed one of Laura's buttons, and she in turn pushed one of mine. My reaction apparently pushed ALL of yours.

I and most others here wish you and Laura only happiness. Because you likely will not have the necessity of raising children, your marriage will have pleanty of time and space to keep romance alive.

You have badly misinterpreted who and what I am, and have gone off on a rant based on very little information. You accuse me of being "an opportunistic jerk looking for the best Ms. Right Now until Ms. Better come along". On what basis do you make such a judgement? Actually, I think that I probably have a number of gold stars next to my name in the Book at the Pearly Gates, and would likely get pre-boarded ahead of you if we were to arrive at the same time. You're making rash judgements on precious little evidence.

I am a nice, solid, stable kind of guy who has spent a lot of time and money and emotional energy raising several other people's children. Unfortunately it was not easy, and not something that I would recommend that anyone else try, unless the children are very young and the spouse is truly supportive of your role as a parent.

One thing that I consistently experienced, however, was what I call the "what you see is not what you get" phenomena. On the other hand, I am pretty much who I appear to be and the women in my life get pretty much what they start with. The problem is that I don't appreciate attempts to reprogram me to fit someone else's idea of who and what I should be after marriage.

It's a proven fact that counsellors time and again observe that the things that women complain about are things that their men did or didn't do BEFORE marriage. What they are complaining about is the fact that their husbands didn't respond to their reprogramming efforts after marriage. They accepted his flaws, believing that they could change him after marriage. On the other hand, most of the complaints that men make to counsellors involve new attitudes and behaviors that their wives manifested AFTER marriage.

I'm serious about recommending the Warren Farrell book for both men and women as a tool in better understanding men. He doesn't have all the answers, but his ideas are thought-provoking.

I am still friends with many of the ex-ladies of my life. I care about them, but am glad that I no longer have to live with them and experience their continued attempts to force me into their molds. I look forward to the possiblity of finding a soul-mate, but hold no high expectations any more of it happening. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy life as I search.

Next time don't be in such a haste to jump to conclusions and judge another so harshly on so little evidence. By doing so, you judge yourself. One final thought. Are your harsh judgements in any a reflection of some part of yourself, perhaps in the past? The venom with which you attack makes one wonder.

-- Bachelor (bachelor@keeping.lovealive), April 14, 2000.


Ladylogic, That's OK, you can say it to me as many times as you wish. You misunderstand me. I didn't really mean to say that marriage "wrecks" a relationship, although sometimes it does. What I meant to say is that due to the differences in how men and women think (and are programmed by society), the pre-marriage romance that makes love so wonderful is often difficult to sustain after marriage. Women however, receive enough of what they need through marriage to cancel out some loss of romantic bliss. Men on the other hand, inherit a life of toil to pay the mortgage, fund the kids college, pay all the expenses for unappreciative teenagers, and that leaves precious little time and energy for romance. We long for the unencumbered bliss of the pre-marriage relationship.

-- Bachelor (bachelor@love.uladies), April 14, 2000.


Bachelor, Your observations about loss of romance seem directed more toward having a family than toward marriage. Also, what indicates that a woman's dislike of the life of toil she has inherited is less than a man's.

-- David L (, April 14, 2000.

Hi, Mr Bachelor, I'd love to discuss what you just said, but I don't want to do it here. I don't want to answer two threads on the same subject so I'm going to cut and paste our responses on a new one. The other reason I have to do this is because Mr Polly doesn't read this site, and I haven't had time to tell him this conversation is going on in another thread.

I hope you don't mind?


-- (Ladylogic@...), April 14, 2000.


Ok, now that I have this set up, I'll be back later to finish the discussion.

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 14, 2000


Live well, be well, love well, laugh and be happy. Best wishes and much success on your new union.

-- Aunt Bee (, April 15, 2000.

For a Vegas stripper you sure have a big heart to match your big powdered ass.

-- Manny (, April 15, 2000.

Manny, isn't it past your bedtime? Do your parents know you are playing on the computer? Come back when you grow up and can act like a rational adult.

-- Aunt Bee (, April 15, 2000.

Aunt Bee you still blowing Barney Fife?

-- Manny (, April 15, 2000.

Everybody knows Aunt Bee only took her dentures out for Gomer

-- (Golllly@gollly.gollly), April 15, 2000.


You know, I imagine you as some sort of pimply-faced eighth grader. Tell me, is that a pretty accurate description?

-- Dr. Shrink (drshrink@shrink.asc), April 15, 2000.

Interesting, Herr Dr. Shrink. What do you make of this one?...

Mr Polly 10:47:07 1/01/100

-- (Needs @Shrink.?), April 15, 2000.

Thank you, Manny!

That's just what I thought. Grow up and get a life. When you are ready for some psychological help, I'll be happy to recommend an adolescent psychologist in your area.

-- Dr. Shrink (drshrink@shrink.asc), April 15, 2000.

Manny, if you're not Ron Schwarz, then how about an alter ego of Y2KPRO?

-- sleuth (, April 15, 2000.

Nah. I think Dr. Shrink is right. Manny writes a lot like Mr. Polly.

-- (abc@xxx.xcom), April 15, 2000.

I hesitate to add thoughts to a thread that has so much troll commentary, but I must disagree with BOTH Bachelor and Mr. Polly.

My SO and I have BOTH been married before. His wife tried to change HIM, and my husband tried to change ME. It took us quite some time to disengage ourselves from the legal entanglements inherent in any legal bonding, and we both got the short end of the stick in the end. We were both married for quite a while, so grew both older and wiser during the process.

My disagreements include BOTH that folks who remain unmarried are somehow "biding time" until a younger, more attractive mate appears on the scene, and that women get the better end of the marriage union. For many years, men and women alike joked about how women were attractive until married and then went to bed with curlers and face cream. I'd suggest that these women went to bed with curlers and face cream BEFORE they were married, but I don't know for sure.

MY rules when I entered my current relationship [12 years ago now, I think] were: Our money will never cross paths. Mine is mine, and yours is yours. I'm quite capable of earning my own money, and you are as well. We ALWAYS pay our own way. I may pay for his dinner on his birthday, and he may pay for mine on MY birthday, but if we go out to dinner otherwise, we get separate checks. The household bills are split in half for general payment, electricity, etc. Telephone is no problem. I have my own, and he has his own. I do not answer HIS phone, and he does NOT answer mine.

Continuing on that theme, I AM not your mother. Your laundry is YOUR laundry, and my laundry is MY laundry. I am not the maid. You vaccuum, and I'll dust. You mow the lawn, etc., and I'll clean the bathrooms and wash the floors. I am NOT the cook. We take turns at cooking and buying the food necessary for meals. If neither feels like cooking on a given night, it's every person for himself. In fact, sometimes *I* mow the lawn and HE washes the floors. In general, there are no ROLES.

This works for us. Right now we live in a house HE purchased. If he dies, I'm out on the street, looking for an apartment. HIS children inherit the house, his stocks, and his unpaid bills. If *I* die, he'll probably sell the house and get an apartment anyway. MY children will inherit MY IRA, my stocks, and MY bills. We'll move along with life.

ANY relationship takes work. We work at keeping ourselves attractive to our mate. We work at remaining attentive to our mate. We work at coming up with creative "surprises" to keep our mate interested in the sexual side of the relationship. We don't NEED a piece of paper to remind us of our commitment. The commitment is reinforced every time we see love in their eyes, every time we hear "WOW!" when we get a new outfit.

-- Anita (, April 15, 2000.

Anita, as always you bring the voice and reason to the forum. Thanks for grabbing the thread back from the trolls. I'll ponder you words andbe back later in the day.

-- batchelor (batchelor@luvya.ladies), April 15, 2000.


A quick thought before I go. One of the first things that a great many women do is cut their beautiful long hair short soon after marriage (assuming that it was long in the first place). This is usually very upsetting to their new mate who liked them very much the way they were. In all fairness, from the woman's standpoint, long hair takes a lot of work to maintain. But what usually happens is that the man is either not consulted, or his protestations lose out. This is then one of the first not-so-subtle hints at his new loss of status.

-- bachelor (bachelor@loveya.ladies), April 15, 2000.

You could be right. Although Aunt Bee only swallowed for Goober.

-- Manny (, April 15, 2000.


There's a message for you on another thread. See if you can find it.

-- UrConscience (urconscience@mannys.braindead), April 15, 2000.


I kept my long hair for MANY, MANY years after I was married. I'd ALSO heard that argument. One day I cut it short and my husband said, "THIS will interfere with our relationship." WOW, I thought. We must have had a pretty damn deep relationship when MY choice of hairstyle interferes with YOUR desires.

I'd been friends with my current SO for MANY years, so he knew me when my hair was long and knew me when my hair was short. When we got romantically involved a few years after my divorce, and perhaps 5 years after HIS divorce, I think my hair was short. It's been VERY long for perhaps 7 years now. Here again, though, the hair was an attractive force for my husband simply because HE wanted to SEE it. The hair is NOT simply an attractive force for my SO now. He enjoys the LOOK of it, yet he ALSO enjoys SLEEPING on it, brushing it, washing it, etc. From MY standpoint, *I* don't know how to do much with hair. It's fairly straight, and when it was short, I had to mess around with blow-drying, curling, etc. When it's LONG, I just wash it and walk away. When it dries on its own, it lays along my shoulders and back. I get it cut when I can't get out of my chair because I'm sitting on it.

You must realize as well that I have three kids who grew up with a long-haired mother. THEY were the impetus behind my decision to grow the hair back [as well as all the fumbling I had to do with the short stuff.] "You're just not my mom without the long hair!"

I'm starting to get a few grey hairs now, Bachelor. If I do something about those grey ones, my hair will dry out. Hair coloring is as hard on hair as blow-drying, ya know. I TRIED one of those temporary colors a while back, and it did NOTHING. I don't want to engage in a permanent coloring thing because it needs lots of upkeep, and [like you said] WHO wants to see someone's hair all in a mess, just to hide a few grey hair? I thought I'd purchase a garter belt instead and just kindof lean over to hook up that belt to my hose, letting my hair fall to my knees in the process. [grin] What do YOU think?

-- Anita (, April 15, 2000.


I am NOT the cook. We take turns at cooking and buying the food necessary for meals.

After 35 y of marriage, I am the cook. Started when my wife went back to school in 1980. I do all of the shopping. Life is chaos, but it works. How do you get away with it? :o). I can't.

Best wishes,,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (, April 15, 2000.


I think that I'd like to meet someone like you myself!!! Got any interesting sisters or girlfriends (40+). You'd be surprised how many men over 45 don't mind some gray hair on their lady. It's natural and if you are both aging gracefully can actually be a bit alluring. Bachelor, step aside!

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 15, 2000.


You're out of town quite a bit. WHO cooks while you're gone? The role will be dropped when YOU choose to drop the role. You can begin by suggesting that you're simply too tired to cook [after returning from one of your business trips.] This statement can be followed by "How about YOU cook tonight and *I* treat YOU to a bubble-bath, followed by a massage." If she chooses to "do the deal", you MUST praise the dinner provided, even if it tasted like cardboard. You must ALSO follow up on YOUR end of the deal and make the bubble-bath and provide the massage.

Flash: I have no sisters, but there are COUNTLESS women out there who don't want to be stuck in traditional roles. Start talking to women, with the thought of friendship in mind. IMO, the BEST relationships begin with friendship. Once you've made friends with some womens, you can open up further with YOUR opinions, and they'll offer their own.

This reminds me, however, of a neighbor's comment when I moved next- door after my divorce. She said, "YOU gave up a washer and dryer." I could certainly understand HER point, as she'd been waiting for someone to provide HER a washer and dryer for quite some time, but on the other hand, THIS was the extent of her desire in a relationship.

-- Anita (, April 15, 2000.


I found your living arrangements very interesting. I'm thrilled that it works for you, and I guess that type of relationship works for others as well. However, it seems to me that you two are roomates more than anything else. That's cool if it works for you, but it sure wouldn't work for me. There are two reasons for that: 1) It seems to me your lifestyle requires a duplication of efforts, and 2) It causes you to spend more time on ordinary things that marriage automatically eliminates.

Duplication: You're paying a phone bill, and he's paying a phone bill. You reconcile your bank account, he reconciles his bank account. I assume you have separate medical carriers? Auto insurance? Dental? Ok, maybe the time doesn't add up to much, but it's there.

Ordinary things: If you two are splitting costs at a restaurant, it takes time to sit there and split the damn bil.. Do you do that in other areas as well? Do you separate the costs at a movie? How do you handle a vacation? It seems to me you're frittering away little increments of time that add up substantially in the long run. However, maybe time isn't as important to you as it is to me, and I applaud you for finding a lifestyle that works for you.


After Mr Polly and I read your posts last night, we realized you might have reason to be gun-shy. Neither one of us can comment on your life with any authority because it is foreign to us. Neither one of us have had children, and we don't intend to.

However, I'd like to make a few comments on another issues.

Bachelor, like you, I've been married more than once. I thoroughly enjoy being married, but I had pretty much given up on finding a soul- mate. I was looking, but I wasn't expecting. Fortunately, I found Mr Polly, and discovered he has the capacity to love me beyond anyone I've ever known. It is because he had that capacity first that he awakened something dormant in me. He has shown me how to love unconditionally by his example, and now I realize I have it in me -- for him -- and we are going to reap the rewards that kind of love can bring to our lives.

I doubt that Mr Polly is going to post here again, so I'd just like to mention that he sort of "went off" in his post because he thought you might be trolling me. That's one of the reasons he doesn't come to this site anymore. He can't stand to read the troll posts because he'd like to kick their butts, and it's just too frustrating for him. Please don't take his words personally, once he read your other posts, he realized you are reasonable man.

I think you might be too, but I don't think your remark about long hair is. Mr Bachelor, I have very long hair, and it takes a lot of time for me to wash, condition, and comb the rats out. Like Anita, I refuse to use electrical appliances on it because it damages it. For me, using those appliances would require less time to fix my hair. I'd love to be able to blow dry my hair with a round metal brush and head out the door. It would break my hair though, so I take the time to let it dry naturally. Fortunately, I have a lifestyle that allows me to have that kind of time, but most women don't.

I'd like to make a point here, Mr Bachelor, it's from my heart and I hope you realize it's not intended to offend you in any way. I'd like you to understand that the length of our hair has nothing to do with your "lack of status". It is a reflection of us at the time, and our lifestyle. I can remember on a couple of occasions when I was younger, I cut or permed my hair just because I wanted to see what I look like that way. I think as women get older, we become more comfortable with ourselves, and the need to experiment with our looks decreases.

Hi, Flash!

It's time to get out the bathing suits!


-- (Ladylogic@...), April 15, 2000.


Don't think that I would want to. Last Night:

Trout; marinated in lemon pepper sauce for 24 hr, then poached in wine. Asp. steamed, slightly, and marinated in wine vinaigrette and served with capers. Steamed new potatoes. Followed by desert of strawberries and asian pears. {we grow most of this stuff} It's like this every night.

I am getting good at this [after 20 y]. Got to get my pole and catch more trout. I might try bass for Sunday. I have a lot of them.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (, April 15, 2000.

I don't see a duplication of effort or a waste of time in paying separate bills. My whole GOAL in establishing separate finances was based on one fundamental truth: Folks fight more about money than any other reason.

When money is earned, shared, and spent by both parties, there's a tendency to argue over whether the money spent was spent on something worthy. When I was married, *I* noticed the carpet getting thread- bare. My husband said, "I don't want to spend money on new carpeting." I opened my own account and spent my OWN money on new carpeting. It eliminates the importance factor for ONE that is NOT shared by the other. In the same vein, I wasn't thrilled that HE was spending MY hard-earned money on choices of HIS.

In my current situation, there are the same sortof differences. SO enjoys music that streams forth from expensive equipment while I can't discern the difference between that equipment and a cheap radio. HE buys expensive sun-glasses that last for years. I buy cheap ones that I can lose or sit on without remorse.

In restaurants, we make it clear that we want separate checks from the start. There's no figuring and no extra time involved. With the telephone, I wouldn't have it any other way. When the phone rings, I want to know it's for ME. We shared a phone line once and my kids weren't always so good at taking messages. They shouldn't be expected to be secretaries, so I got another line just for us.

You ARE right, however...whatever Sometimes what works is determined from trial and error, as in the case of the phone.

-- Anita (, April 15, 2000.


You make some VERY good points. However, I'm wondering, what do you think would happen in a relationship where the woman, or the man, can't make enough money to cover their expenses? (Because of raising children, illness, lack of education, whatever.)

I guess we both are making the same point. We all have to find the person that's right for us...and make that work.

What do you think makes someone right for another? What drew you to your SO?

Personally, I think it's shared history, similar values, and goals. I think looks are WAY down the list if those things are present. (Well, at least for a woman :o)


-- (Ladylogic@...), April 15, 2000.

Sorry, Laura...I didn't address all your questions because I couldn't remember them all. We DO pay separately at a movie and if I want popcorn and he doesn't, I buy it and don't let him have any. [grin] are handled the same way. Sometimes he has the money to go and I don't. He goes and I stay home. Sometimes we simply WANT to go somewhere that the other doesn't, so I go and he stays home or HE goes and I stay home.

Regarding insurance, dental, etc. we handle that on our own. That's what grown-ups do. We're not interested in assuming caretaker roles, although I do make him soup and stuff if he's ill, and he does the same for me.

OF COURSE we're more like room-mates than marital partners. That was our goal. I already mentioned on another thread how society's expectations play on relationships, and we have no intention of that being repeated.

Z: LOL. I oftentimes PREFER my own cooking to his, but perfection comes with experience. BTW, Z, did you know that my E-mail address is rejected when you begin a thread and I respond? If your E-mail address is not valid, or you've filtered out Hotmail responses, you may want to check "Do not send E-mail responses" when you start a new thread. Since I set up this new hotmail account, 99% of the messages there are a result of your threads rejecting my posts.

-- Anita (, April 15, 2000.

Anita, I just noticed you said this:

"Sometimes what works is determined from trial and error,"

I hope you haven't already gone to the trouble to answer my last post. I'll pay a little closer attention next time.


-- (Ladylogic@...), April 15, 2000.


Understand the problemo. That address does have some blocks. I never read the mail there. It appears that LL has reached it. Thanks, Laura. Will try to remember. But consider, I am usually responding from hotels or airports; My laptop lacks a few features.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (, April 15, 2000.

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