With 80 responses on the origional tread perhaps, just maybe, it could be continued on this thread. We could certainly save scrolling TIME.

A few more tidbits I happened upon.....

Time is like a straight line, every point on the line is either before or after every other point.

Is there such a thing as the present?

Time is (1)irreversible (2)a measure of events in this world (3)infinite?

Time is the receptacle in which all the events of this world are enclosed...

Time is a construction in which we all participate...

Time is the ever present NOW ...

Time is a passing sequence of events...we speak of the "passage of time".

Time is an ongoing process linking moments of action.

Time is a state of mind.

Waves of activity - repeated infinitely...

Human understanding of time is variable and complex....our conceptualization of time is the general flow of events.

Do animals "sense" time.

Time is the "essence" of your life.

The three pillars of objective reality...space, time and matter.

The fear of time is the fear to be faced with the never ending mission of getting closer and closer to one's own extinction/personal & collective divinty.

The creation of time, or of anything else, out of nothing, is difficult to imagine.

The present (NOW) is a recapitulation of the past and an anticipation of the future.

Time is the canvas upon which my life is painted...[fauna]

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 13, 2000

Answers

Well, I agree with one of those...

"Time is a state of mind."

More specifically, an illusion created by our constantly expanding perception.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 13, 2000.

Hawk

Aristotle agrees with you....he did not believe that time existed outside the mind. Changes happen, but they don't measure themselves, and time is just a way of measuring changes. It's the human mind's way of grasping and understanding change. It's a mental abstraction with a basis in reality. Time doesn't exist in the real world but only in the mind, but: the changes that time measures are real.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 13, 2000.

Time is God's way to prevent everything happening at once.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 13, 2000.

How then do we begin to explain precognition of prophetic dreams?

Is God's organization falliable?

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 13, 2000.

OOPS.

Should read: Pregognition _or_ prophetic dreams

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 13, 2000.

Flint:

I was wondering if you and when you would weigh in-a little tongue (sp?) in cheek is always good in threads where non-philosphers are discussing time-and wether it is a physical concept, metaphysical concept, or both.

TC-Maybe this is a good idea to start a second thread, but I will continue to post to the other thread if only for the reason that Laura send an invite to an author who has written about deja vu to join that thread.

Hawk-your input, and understanding of some of the concepts that Redfield and Walsch have posited is greatly appreciated. While I still do not agree with your methodology in what you feel is defending yourself(so what, right?) I would invite all those who you have scuffled with to read your input on this topic.

My mind seems to have gone a bit dry at this point, so I will just continue to moderate the thread at this time-That is, unless tc wants to do this.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 13, 2000.

FS, I was most definitely inspired by my readings of Walsch, but I haven't heard of Redfield, and wasn't aware that Aristotle held similar views. I just try to go with what my deepest instincts tell me.

As far as "defending myself", as I've said before, I don't do that unless I sense that I am being attacked. Why should any threads be different than your first one on the subject of time? We all have differing subjective realities, but does that mean someone should be called an idiot because their reality does not conform to yours?

I would suggest that it in order for us to discover the objective realities of our existence (those that are true for everyone), it is necessary to be open-minded. It is important for mankind to understand and accept this concept, because it is actually the combination of our thoughts (the energy of the mass consciousness) which shapes our reality. If we continue to send out conflicting energy, we'll get nowhere.

It's a very simple principle, but many people don't seem to be aware that there is actually supportive science behind it. They think, "Oh, it's just another fight, no big deal", or "It's just another war, we've had those for centuries". If we truly want "things" to change, all we have to do is change the way we think!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 13, 2000.

Holy cow, you guys are well read. I am impressed (honest). I never even heard of Walsch and Redfield and I've never read Aristotle (altho I have heard of him--he was married to Jackie O, right?).

Ok, ok, trying to make a serious input here. Time travel---is it even theoretically possible? Seems like it would be possible to go back in time IF you could exceed the speed of light. Then you would catch up to previous events which are moving at the speed of light. But it is theoretically impossible to exceed the speed of light (sorry Captain Kirk) because mass becomes infinite at the speed of light. I can't even imagine a way in which one could go forward in time.

Likewise I can't imagine how time could stand still. There would have to be no motion, even at the atomic level for this to occur.

I think my time is up.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 14, 2000.

Hawk:

I thought about your post. Then I thought about mine, and realized that by saying I did not agree with how you "defended" yourself I was passing judgement; On my spiritual path, O would prefer to reach a path of no judgement-that is what leads to the greatest serenity.

James Redfield is the author of The Celestine Prophecy, The Tenth Insight, and a few others along these lines. I know you enjoyed the Conversations with God series. It looks like it had a big impact on you, as it did on me. If this is so, then you will love Redfield's work. His prose is decidely less flowery, but it is an excellant read none-the-less.

Lars:

Your active on the board today, eh? From what I understand, nuclear physicists are currently trying to prove the existence of sub-atomic particles which travel faster than the speed of light(Tachyons perhaps? maybe someone can help me with this). As I said on the other thread, science is really forever theory; While we search rabidly for a Theory of Everything, I do not think we will ever have a unified theory which does explain everything.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

Cool FS! Which of Redfield's books would you recommend as a starter?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 14, 2000.

FutureShock....please help keep it going..I'm enjoying all of the posts.

I do on occasion put my origional thoughts (are any thoughts origional?) in my posts but I also without shame use the thoughts of others. Once I am interested in a topic I want to research it, think about it and discuss it. This type of thread comes along every few days. I was hopeful this one would hang around for a day or two.

timecannot be distilled into a neat verbal definition...but...a neat short one is...every moment there has ever been or ever will be.

I have always found time travel to be the most interesting story line in sci-fi...from HG Wells to Doctor Who.

BTW I started Part 2 because my webtv will not scroll past about 100 posts!

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 14, 2000.

Lars,

Since I believe that all of "time" is available to us in the present, I don't really think of it as "time travel". The energy of our thought motivates our actions, and our actions create our experiences, so it is our conscious thoughts which create the reality which we will experience, or as we view it, the "future". You create part of your future every time you make a choice to take an action that becomes an experience, such as deciding what you will eat for breakfast tomorrow.

Our thoughts, feelings, and spiritual energy of our experiences go out into the universe, and interact with and become part of all the other energy in the universe. Those with exceptionally sensitive minds, operating in higher states of consciousness, are sometimes able to focus in on the specific energy of these thoughts and feelings, helping them to sense which of the possible realities is the one experienced. In this way they see the "future", which already exists, it's just that most of us aren't "aware" of it until we physically experience it. Then it becomes a spiritual experience, or part of what we "know".

There is an interesting phenomenon that results from this situation. We often have the power to shape the "future" in any of many possible ways, but we are confused about the cause and effect of our thought. When someone like Nostradamus foretells the future, many people think we are helplessly destined to accept it. In reality, he has sensed one of the possibilities resulting from our collective thought energy, but not the only one. So if enough people believe that we are doomed to this dire turn of events, the focus of their thoughts on that future is what makes it become the experience. We often don't realize that we have the ability to change the course of that reality, if we could simply agree to make a conscious choice to experience a better one.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 14, 2000.

"We often don't realize that we have the ability to change the course of that reality..." -Hawk

Maybe we have the ability to enter "different" realities. There is also something called "parallel worlds". Richard Bach (author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull) writes that every instant the world we know splits into an infinite number of other worlds, different futures and different pasts.

According to physics, the y2k threat that would have resulted in TEOTWAWKI did not vanish at the crossroads where 1999 changed to 2000. TEOTWAWKI may be one of the realities happening this moment in an alternate world sliding alongside this one.

There may be a reality where we chose to prepare and a reality where we chose not too. Just begin to imagine what infinite means.

"...like Nostradamus foretells the future, many people think we are helplessly destined to accept it. In reality, he has sensed one of the possibilities resulting from our collective thought energy, but not the only one." -Hawk

Maybe Nostradamus had sensed ONE/SOME of the REALITIES.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 14, 2000.

Future Shock-

I mentioned astrology on this thread as an aside to a persons sensitivity level. I would love a discussion about astrology but hesitate to bring it here as this is a discussion about time.

Any chance you could start a thread on it? What could be interesting is taking a volunteer from this board (one of the more colorful members)and starting the discussion with an interpretation of their chart.

"In that time before there was TIME, there was Grandfather Fire. Around Grandfather Fire sat the circle of Animal Brothers, beyond them was the darkness. Each, in their own turn, would tell their tellings in that sacred language of spirit. Through their tellings, Grandfather Fire would express creation. There came TIME when the two-leggeds got up and wandered away from the fire and into the darkness...

And so the sacred aberration of our spirit's sojourn through the realm of the time oriented physical domain began. Our heart's desire is the return home to the circle, and Grandfather Fire. This journey of self-realization, assisted by the tellings (myths) of the twelve members of the circle of animal brothers, is the mystery and history of our quest. Inherent within each of us, the structure and syntax of this magnificent mystery is encoded."

-Daniel Giamario, Shamanic Astrologer

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 14, 2000.

Hawk-

Definately start with The Celestine Prophecy-Redfield has written three or four books sequentially, and this is the first. That to which you refer about the collective thought process is known on the individual level as self-fulfilling prophecy. As a world, I do believe we bring on certain events simply because we are imprisoned by thought patterns which tell us "this" or "that" is true.

tc:

You said "(are any thoughts original?)"-this is a really good question. I do not believe there are any "original" thoughts; I believe that since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, that it is converted into energy and vice-versa, that thoughts being both a form of energy and a form of matter(the biochemical processes that make them up), there can be no original thoughts. This life is a process of remembering what we already know.

True genius in the realm of the arts is the ability to take the building blocks of the metaphysical universe and reinterpreting them.

Debra:

I posted something on the thread "some real doom to worry about" about the possibility of multiple realities existing simultaneously:

"Like in the old alka-seltzer commercial "I can't believe I read the WHOLE THING". You know, it is way too easy to pick on the mentally disturbed, as I believe this women is. HOWEVER, maybe there are physical forms, human beings on this planet, that just live in a completely different reality than ours. I cannot believe that if there were UFO's and if the anti-christ(whatever that is) were walking around in people's backyards, that only a few "enlightened" people would be privy to this.

But again, alternate realities could be taking place right next to ours, and maybe everything she said is true in her world-but I am not in her world, and I thank God for that. Throughout her interview she fails to provide a single shred of tangible evidence-everything she experienced only she can vouch for.

I really wish I could understand these folk."

We are thinking some of the same thoughts! I have also thought that on same plane TEOTWAWKI did take place.

I would be more than happy to do someone's chart, but based on the number of people with privacy issues, I do not know if any one would give me all the info I need to do it. You may want to look up the birth time, place, and date of some famous(many astrological web sites will provide that) and we can play with that. Maybe the skeptics will take a look. I just don't see Decker, Flint, Jim Cooke, or any of the other people who do not post anonymously helping me out with this-If they will not, I cannot see an anonymous poster sudeenly revealing themself.

I will think about it.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

Some non-original thoughts on Original thoughts...

Original thoughts can be viewed/understood through archetypes...

These Original thoughts are "hard-wired" into us at birth...

Imagery for the archetypes/thought patterns for the signs include:

Aries............Virgin Amazon, Rugged Individualist Aggressive Play Taurus...........The Lover, Artist Intimacy and Aesthetics Gemini...........Eternal Youth, The Trickster, The Fool Freedom of Mind/Communicate Cancer...........The Great Mother, The Good Father Responsible Nurturing Leo..............The Amazon Queen, The King Radiant Self-Love Virgo............The High Priestess, The High Priest Sacred Work Libra............The Wife, The Husband, The Partner Relatedness, Partnership Scorpio..........The Sorceress Witch, The King Stag Command of Feelings and Desires Sagittarius......The Virgin Amazon in search of Truth, The Philosopher Quest For Meaning Of Life Capricorn........The Matriarch Herself, The Elder Management and Control Aquarius.........The Avant-Garde Visionary, The Universal Free Spirit Life as a Grand Experiment Pisces...........The Empath, The Boddhisattva Selfless Service to Others

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 14, 2000.

Sorry about the above, anybody know how to fix it?

It should read: Sign....Archetypes (then keywords under archetypes) Next line BEGINS with next sign.

-- Debra (??@??.com), April 14, 2000.

FutureShock, Hawk, Frank and tc aka fauna:

In case you're no longer checking the first thread in this series, my replies to your responses to my original post are over there.

Are we expected to abandon the first thread now?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), April 14, 2000.

Eve-

I will not abandon the first thread. I will go there now and take a lookk.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

Hawk:

You said: "So if enough people believe that we are doomed to this dire turn of events, the focus of their thoughts on that future is what makes it become the experience. We often don't realize that we have the ability to change the course of that reality, if we could simply agree to make a conscious choice to experience a better one."

Could this be used to state that Y2k glitches were fixed because the majority of folks world-wide consciously believed they would be?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 14, 2000.

The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on, nor all your piety and wit shall will it back to cast out half a line nor all your tears wash out a word of it.

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), April 14, 2000.

Lars:

For in and out, above, about, below,
'Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,
Played in a Box whose Candle is the sun,

Round which we Phantom Figures come and go.
Mr. Khayyam had a way with words

Debra:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.
snip from a favorite poem by Robert Frost

I've read Bach and often play mind games with myself ... ie...should I turn left or right and what difference will it make? What impact will it have on the remainder of my life? Did another tc (ronbanks) turn the opposite direction?

Anita:

I believe your remark about Y2k glitches to be true......and could it also apply to the current falling stock market?

-- tc (trashcan-man@webtv.net), April 14, 2000.

Anita:

I am with tc-I think it does apply to y2k. I think it also applies to the market-The collective consciousness was drunk on the bubble, and in the back of their minds feared the inevitable drop-this negativity has now come to the forefront-A good drunk is always followed by a hell of a hangover!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

Very true! Y2K and Bubble.com - A very substantial consciousness has had a significant effect on these.

Lars, love that quote!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 14, 2000.

Debra:

What is the source of your archetypes again??

Thanks.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

Debra:

You nailed me right on the nose....saggittarus...quest for meaning. Having read that I flipped open the Bible to Ecclesiastes (King Solomons quest for meaning)....To every thing there is a season, and a TIME to every purpose under the heaven:....and then last nite there was that fortune cookie ;o)

I just remembered S. King's "Langoliers" who gobbled up the past just after it had occured. Would not King make a good poster to this thread?

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 14, 2000.

Future Shock-

The source of these archetypes is Daniel Giamario, a Shamanic Astrologer.

Shamanic Astrology is archetypal and symbolic. It is the study of intent, not a static description of how people are. You could have 12 Virgos. They are not the same. Their intent is the same but they are not. Some have learned to use the energy of Virgo better than others.

"The archetypal material gives us a sense of all the possibilities that are available and which ones apply to us. Let's take the issue of enlightenment for an example. Using the astrological model we find there are twelve valid ways of reaching an enlightment experience. One person's approach might be through conscious partnership. Another person's approach might be through having a family, or having adventures, or karma yoga, or transcendent union with the absolute. There are different paths for different people. All are equally valid. Shamanic Astrology makes no judgment about one path being better than another."

"Astrology today is totally different than at other time periods in history. During a more "normal" time, astrologers could look at a chart and absolutely, deterministically know what type of job the person would have, when and what type of person they would marry, how many children they would have and so on. However, as we are now in the final twenty years or so of an entire 26,000 year cycle, what we are experiencing today, is not a "normal time." There are two important phenomena taking place now called acceleration and recapitulation. Time is moving faster and our energies are in an extremely powerful form. -Daniel Giamario

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 14, 2000.

tc-

Something that may interest you about the Fire signs...

There are three - Aries, Leo and Sagittarius. If all three were to climb a mountain they would do it for very different reasons.

Aries would climb it because it was there.

Leo would climb it because he heard there was a camera crew at the top waiting to take his picture.

Sagittarius would climb it to find God.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 14, 2000.

Debra

I went searching again ... and found that Sagittarius is in the 9th House..the older meaning is Journeys and the modern meaning is higher education, religion/philosophy, long-distance travel, psychic development.

Are we not now again (for me) living in the Age of Aquarius? Was the last one about 30 to 31 years ago?

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

Peace

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 14, 2000.

tc-

To tell you the truth I'm not sure about the Age of Aquarius. I thought it was coming and would be the first time?

Maybe Future Shock knows?

-- Debra (??@??.com), April 14, 2000.

Debra,

Why would an Aquarius climb the mountain?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 14, 2000.

Hawk,

Because his gemini wife had something he 'should' do intstead.

*I love scout camp, really*

-- flora (***@__._), April 14, 2000.

And Hawk - where's consumer - huh?!

Bring on the waterjets.

-- flora (***@__._), April 14, 2000.

Here's some info about the Age of Aquarius, which we have just entered. I guess it will last for over 2000 years, so ya better get used to it.

Aquarius

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 14, 2000.

Debra: What is really quite interesting is that your shamanic astrologer is saying the same thing as a looney toon christian on Art Bell's radio show. For the record, I am not saying this astrologer is a looney toon;; It is just unbelievable that they would be saying the same thing. The link for the interview is on the thread titled "some real doom to worry about".

"Kathleen - There's a reason for this. Apparently, God has sped things up according to some of the prophets, and I have a calculation my book, which is really too complex to get into here, but we actually are losing time, so many minutes per month. By the end of the year we've just lost it all. So, the tasks that you thought you could do in a normal amount of time are taking you twice as long to do.

Art - So, then we can think of time accelerating while we're moving at the same pace, and we're getting less and less done, with apparent reference to that speed of time.

Kathleen - Right, and you're seeing also that your days seem interminably slow, so [the way] things are moving, there is definitely a hand involved; actually two, one on either side of the line, and we're being pulled and pushed by forces that we can't see."

"Time is moving faster and our energies are in an extremely powerful form. -Daniel Giamario

Twilight zone. Also, your basic descriptions of sun signs are accurate; however, as you probably have an inkling, there is so much more to a natal cahrt than the sun. The ascendant is critical as it describes the door you walk through between yourself and the world, it is your general approach to the world, and the planet which rules the ascendant is very important in the chart. Moon placement and sign is also critical. Pretty much all planets up through Mars, also known as the "personal" planets are important in determining our destiny.

I am a sun Scorpio, so of course I am intrigued by the underworld, things beneath the surface(scorpio ruled by Pluto, god of the underworld) I will not do anything unless I am passionate about it- there is nothing wishy-washy about a true scorpio. I am also one of the most secretive people-true scorpio blue. But I am also very loyal- you will find none more loyal than a scorpio, and if you know any they probably can count on 1 hand who their REAL friends are. I have a gemini ascendant-I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge and a keen intellect-and you can never get me to stop talking when I get oon a role-that is the effect of mercury, gemini's ruler. I cannot sit still either. I am sure you have known gemini's like that.

Finally I have a Leo moon-yep, get out that camera crew and notice me, dammit. But again I can be very generous(a Leo trait) and I protect my brood.

So, as you see, depending on the transits of the day, I can be a blend of these three, or have more of one than the other.

FWIW

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 14, 2000.

The musical Hair was introduced in 1968. They were excited about the coming age of aqurius and kept singing....This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius The Age of Aquarius Aquarius! Aquarius!

I heard the singing and thought it had started.....but tonight I realize it just started 4 months and 14 days ago. And it will go on another 2160 years!

Thanks Hawk

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

Hawk-

I don't believe Aquarius would be interested in climbing a mountain. He's "out there" flying around in space!

(Aquarius is free from the entanglements of the physical and emotional planes, his sword quality is detachment and pure spirit)

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 15, 2000.

Future Shock-

In another post I'd like to clarify Giamario's thoughts on time.

Shamanic Astrology is NOT sun sign astrology.

Shamanic Astrology uses a "script". The script consists of three distinct aspects, or movements, as in a symphony. These aspects are the THESIS, or first movement, the ANTITHESIS, or second movement, and the SYNTHESIS, or third movement. The THESIS deals with the past life themes, or original identity. The ANTITHESIS, or counterpoint, deals with the tools, equipment and strategy for the current life. The SYNTHESIS is the current life purpose or the personal medicine wheel.

The moon symbolizes the lineage. It is the tribe you come from. The University you graduated from. There is no further learning here. We tend to use our moon alot because that is where we are sure of ourselves. But we require growth.

These are the tools:

The sun is the fuel, not "life purpose", but the fuel we burn to reach "life purpose". Fire signs would require high octane fuel while earth signs would need diesel fuel. (translate this into the foods we eat)

Mercury is our current life mental, thinking and cognitive capacities.

Venus is the principle archetype of the feminine. On a woman's chart the specific feminine imagery being worked on in the current life. On a man's chart it is associated with physical attraction and romantic love; and the "sacred marriage" i.e. union with one's inner partner. (the anima)

Mars is the principle archetype of the masculine. On a man's chart the specific masculine imagery being worked on in the current life. On a woman's chart it is associated with physical attraction and romantic love; and the "sacred marriage" i.e. union with one's inner partner. (the animus)

Jupiter suggests the appropriate "path of enlightenment". It is the planet of the "vision quest".

The hard aspects(conjunctions, squares and oppositions) of the four outer planets represent the strategies set up by the individual for eventually accomplishing the life purpose projects.

Saturn is about boundaries and limit conditions. Where things are not intended to work. It is third dimensional reality.

Uranus is unplanned, unexpected, uncontrollable events that bring on dramatic change.

Neptune is about dreams, visions, new awareness through identity crisis.

Pluto is the descent into the underworld, the incorporation of the "shadow", facing the deepest fears, and events producing chaos.

The four main angles of the chart are the indicators for the current life purpose projects:

Ascendant is the personal identitiy project, "the 12 paths of Enlightenment". It is your new tribe.

Descendant is the partnership project.

Midheaven is the right livelihood project.

Bottom of Chart is the home and roots project.

The House position of the South node is the job you held in your "old" tribe.

The House position of the North node is the job you will hold in your "new" tribe.

Here is a simple example of using the imagery:

My moon is in Pisces. My south node is in House 9. I was a searcher of the truth and meaning of life in the tribe of the Boddhisattva. That sounds alittle out there but I can say I feel most secure when I am alone and reading (searching). How do they say it? Sometimes I sit and read, sometimes I just sit.

My Venus is in Gemini. That's my feminine energy. I need to use this energy to grow. The imagery for the feminine Gemini is the Eternal Youth, the female Peter Pan, women who are connected to their creative Muse. Now how would a master of the Boddhisattva energies learn to use Peter Pan energies? It's usually not easy to get me to a party but once I'm there....(Geminis love parties!) "Her intent is to be socially gregarious and free from the rules! Her sword quality is freedom of mind." More searching energy here in the form of collecting the facts.

My Mars is in Capricorn. I'm attracted to the Lawgiver! And my Gemini feminine energy makes him nuts!!!! I won't even get into my "sacred marriage", which is about having my feminine and masculine energies working together. Outside I am the Fool (and the universe does tend to take care of me), inside the Elder (who will place responsibility on no one but himself!) "His intent is to bring spirit into matter so as to fully comprehend and then apply the operating manual of life. His sword quality is management and control, and the responsible administration of his domain."

Pair those two up. She needs to be free from the rules and he needs to lay those rules down. I'm working on this one. My "awareness" right now seems to be: I'll set the rules, everyone is expected to play by them (they will be for your own good), and I'll do anything that I want!! Sounds good to me but doesn't really work in the real world.

My sun is in Aries. I need to eat light and often for my body and mind to function in a way that can handle my energies. Aries fuel is fiery, aggressive, playful, competitive, courageous, self-centered, willful, independent, straightforward and childlike.

My rising sign is in Virgo and the North Node is in House 3. I am training for the Gemini job in the Virgo tribe. I will be the Trickster Magician in the tribe of the High Priests and Priestess'. Or the Shape Shifter or Dream Weaver in that tribe. My feminine energy in Gemini will help me get there. I can use the facts gathered with my Gemini energy to do the detailed work of the "spinner of the web" (another imagery of Virgo). They say we "reach" the energies of our rising sign in the last third of our lives. I'm not there yet. All I can do is play with the ideas. (and Gemini loves to play!!) Also Virgo needs "sacred space". My past training was perfect.

Maybe the ascendant is the door into our next stage of life/life?

This astrology seems to fit nicely with the idea of Original Thought. Archetypes = Original Thought Original Thought = Energy Patterns Energy Patterns are hard wired into us at birth.

Is mastering one's own energies/original thought the same thing as achieving pure thought?

Jimmy Splinters said:

"Every thing we think, say or do causes an "impression" in the Akashic Records. If one is pure of thought, they can attune their rate of vibration to the impressions left in the Records by others, such as Jesus, and "transcribe" their life."

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 15, 2000.

"I don't believe Aquarius would be interested in climbing a mountain. He's "out there" flying around in space!"

Yep, that's me alright! I always thought mountain climbing was pretty stupid, especially when so many idiots get killed doing it.

Thanks Deb.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 15, 2000.

Hawk-

I take it your sun sign is Aquarius?

Aquarius fuel is airy, the grand experimenter, intellectual, the cosmic visionary, revolutionary, detached, the universal free spirit.

Aquarius energy is the energy of the Scientist or Comic Visionary. It's intent is the attainment of Cosmic Consciousness. Again, it's sword quality is detachment and pure spirit.

Aquarius is similar to Sagittarius. It's energies operate outside the realm of the physical and the emotional; it does not involve the feeling function.

Men and women who have the Aquarius energy have not been in third dimensional realty for a long time and they come into physical form so they can be part of a grand experiment. Hence, traditional astrology promotes the idea that Aquarius will try anything. What Aquarius is really looking for is to be able to translate this experience back into the higher chakras.

The Pleiades myth says Aquarius is not from here, rather they come from a different star system, where they have a rule (or Prime Directive) of noninterference, similar to the TV series Star Trek. The only way around this directive, in order to make a contribution here, is to chose to incarnate here. However, the problem with incarnating here is the person can forget their mission, because the karma of this place can be heavy and it's not their karma anyway, but when they incarnate here they can't help taking it on. Aquarius may not be prepared for such a descent.

If your sun sign is Aquarius then there is a good chance that your Mercury is in Aquarius. The Mercury position represents what a person intends to work on in the area of the mind, to assist them in moving in the direction of self-actualization in the current life.

Aquarius, Gemini and Libra operate from the thinking function, it is like a doubled, tripled version of thinking, intended to operate best in detachment, objectivity, or cosmic overview.

Aquarius is fully involved in life; but the thinking is detached, watching from the ceiling, witness consciousness, or cosmic consciousness. Key word is detachment.

------The above is from Shamanic Astrology by Daniel Giamario, which is archetypal and SYMBOLIC.

I'd be really curious about your Moon, Venus, Mars and Ascendant. Care to share?

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 15, 2000.

Wow Deb, thanks! I don't follow astrology except for a brief glimpse a few times a week on My Yahoo page, but everytime I read a detailed description like yours I am blown away by how accurate it is. I'm a believer! Got to start learning more about this.

I'm not sure from all the different areas you listed about yourself, but are you a Gemini?

I would love to give you my information if you can perhaps direct me to a site where I can look that stuff up, because I don't know what it is. Thanks.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 15, 2000.

Hawk-

We aren't one sign (vibrational energy) or another. We are a mixture of signs (vibrational energies). The position of ALL the planets (not just the sun) at birth will give us clues regarding original intent.

Each human being has the freedom to choose to cooperate with his or her original intent or not. Knowledge of original life intent is tremendously empowering. Shamanic Astrology helps a person to understand their life purpose. The primary human motivation is not survival, or power, or sexuality, but is the quest for meaning, for purpose. This is the foundation that drives most people. Everything else might be going badly, but if we have a sense of meaning and purpose, we can sort it out.

The Universe is designed to be supportive of people who CONSCIOUSLY PARTICIPATE WITH THEIR ENERGIES, which is where they will find the greatest magic in their life. First we need to understand the individual energies we are working with and then we need to understand "how they can all get along" within our being.

With that being said I have a strong concentration of Gemini energies in my chart. My Venus is in Gemini. This means this is a new and unfamiliar energy to me. Or better said when I was younger it was new. The older I get the better able I am to understand it and use it in a positive way. I am in training so to speak.

It is my feminine energy which means it is the energy I need to use to grow as a woman. At times it is very confusing to me but Gemini energies confuse everyone. It is the nature of the energy. The process for Gemini is to reconnect with the creative Muse, reconnect with spirit, and reconnect with the humor and the freedom. For women, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the patriarcal feminine principle. It is not in the body. It is not in the emotions or feelings. It is in the creative spirit.

Gemini training can be summed up in this statement: "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law." To take Gemini training, implies that, the "law" has already been fulfilled, and now total and complete freedom can be attained. Gemini's intent is to learn to be the eternal youth, free spirit, entertainer, artist, or divine comedian, connected to their creative muse.

LOL-

Future Shock said above...

"...and you can never get me to stop talking when I get on a roll- that is the effect of mercury, gemini's ruler. I cannot sit still either. I am sure you have known gemini's like that."

I think I use my Gemini energies much more than I imagine!!!!

If you give me your birth date and the time you were born I'll look up your planets.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 15, 2000.

Me too, please? 6/24/43 at 4:20 pm. I'm fascinated by this. Would be happy to make a trade. Need any wool??

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 15, 2000.

Debra,

This is what I got from a website I found...

Moon = 13 Gem 53' 47"

Venus = 7 Aqu 4' 13"r

Mars = 27 Sag 17' 39"

Ascendant = 26 deg Leo 48'

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 15, 2000.

Hawk:

Yeah-I am still awake on the east coast-I must be nuts. Gemini moon and Leo ascendant, eh? No wonder you are one of the "stars" of this BBS-That is so leonine-Leo energy is King energy-"i am the King of the jungle"-in the way you approach the world(ascendant) you feel like you must be heard-you are the one in a group meeting who leads the discussion, and will protect the group against any enemy-leo energy also is protective of it's brood. People see you as being a generous person-if not with money, then time. I doubt most on this BBS would say this about you-BUT I am sure your whole personality is not on display here.

That gemini moon in combination with your aquarius sun can give you difficulty in figuring out just what the hell you ARE feeling-THe moon describes your emotional life, and with a gemini moon you would be one to toss contradictory feelings about for quite some time- ultimately, a lot of the times, dsimissing the feelings all together- BUT and this is a big plus-you ARE willing to talk about your feelings-you are not one of these guys that hides them under his sleeve.

Pam-Need a location of birth to cast the chart properly.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

On Topic:

Time is perhaps linear AND non-linear. Thought about that today-why pidgeonhole a dimension like that? I am saying this to myself and you folk-I do not know, after 135 posts, what any one said at the beginning. I thought I would put this thought out there in case we had not looked at it yet.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Future Shock-

I just read the thread about the planets lining up on May 5. You mentioned Taurus...

"Anyway, wherever Taurus is in one's chart, and whatever aspects the "lined-up" planets are making in that natal chart, will definately make a difference in everyone's life."

Does Taurus specifically have something to do with this "lining up"?

Taurus marks my ninth house. What would that mean for me as concerns this date?

Also I have Pluto in the 12th and have thought alot about this placement, how would you read it?

Thanks

BTW-

I am always amazed the way "like energies" seem to find one another. Look what we have here. Hawk has a Gemini Moon, I have a Gemini Venus and you have a Gemini Ascendant! You have a Leo Moon and Hawk has a Leo Ascendant! I bet we have alot of Fire and Air energies attracted to this thread.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Here's that Gemini/Leo/Aquarius/Aries stuff popping up again...

Pam-

Future Shock is right. You need a location to cast a chart properly. That will give you all the house placements, aspects, etc.

Until you can get that info to Future Shock I thought I'd give you an idea of your energies...

Moon - Pisces Sun - Cancer Mercury - Gemini Venus - Leo Mars - Aries Jupiter - Cancer Saturn - Gemini Uranus - Gemini Neptune - Virgo Pluto - Leo South Node - Aquarius North Node - Leo

Ascendant - Need your birth location (I'll guess Sagittarius?)

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Uggggh

Why don't my "lists" come out?

Pam, read that as the Moon IS IN Pisces, the Sun IS IN Cancer, etc.

Sorry about that.

-- Debra (??@??.com), April 16, 2000.

Hawk-

The first thing I saw when I looked at your energies was that your Mars is in Sagittarius. Remember a couple of posts up about the mountain? That is your masculine energy. You need to learn to use it.

Sagittarius is the Hero, as in the Hero's quest. His intent is to experience the quest for consciousness and the discovery of the meaning of life, and to boldly go where no one has before. His sword quality is inspiration and enthusiasm for the quest.

Mythically, Sagittarius types are found on the trail as trail mates or quest mates who were looking for the truth. Sagittarius is not found as one of the householder archetypes and chances of intimacy was limited to whomever they met on the trail, or it was just for the fun of it, or the athletics of it. That doesn't mean there was a deficiency in intimacy. What it means is, it was not what the emphasis was. The emphasis was on the meaning of life, the quest for the truth or the adventure itself.

Sagittarius is the philosopher/pioneer. The teachers Teacher.

More thoughts later...

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Debra:

Do you have your chart handy? If not, do it quick at Alabe.com. I need the degrees of the cusp of the 9th and tenth, and the exact placement of Pluto, as one of those transiting planets or more could be squaring pluto at this time.

Thanks.

Pam: are you the one who is in Potter county Pennsy? I thought of that-(can you believe it?) when I was around Skinners Eddy a few weeks ago.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Future Shock-

I'm not sure but is this what you need?

Ninth house is at 16 deg. 26 min. of Taurus Tenth house is at 19 deg. 55 min. of Gemini Pluto is at 26 deg. 18 min. of Leo

Thanks.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Debra:

Yes. That is what I needed. Saturn went into your ninth house on 4/9/2000, ending 2 and a half years of sometimes very painful soul- searching. During this time one or more of these issues was very big: Death(real as well as metaphorical), Sex, or Taxes. You also may have come into some kind of inheritance during this time. It was particularly difficult for you about 12/98-2/99-There were times when you really wondered "when is this going to end?". Saturn makes us face the things we have been hiding from ourselves, and in the 8th house, scorpios natural house, we are forced to deal with our childhood issues surrounding our relations with the opposite sex.

Mars went into the 9th on 4/14/2000-with mars here you will have renewed energy to perform ninth house issues: searching for the truth, redefining your spiritual beliefs, and getting it together to take that trip you have been planning.

These two planets are joined by Jupiter on 5/2, venus on 5/14, and mercury on 5/8. So, on 5/14/2000 all five planets will be in your 9th house. I do not know what you do for a living, but this time may bring you a new international account, or someone with an international background will come into your life-possibly an international adoption or an offer of a trip overseas or to Canada. You will have a lot of help during this time in furthering your spiritual aims-If you have a court case pending it will turn out in your favor.

All in all, all these planets will one-by-one cross your midheaven- There is change in the air for you in your chosen profession-I think there is something you have always wanted to do, but you have deemed it impractical; now is the time to decide how you will do it. It will bear fruit in 2 and a half years when saturn gets to the midheaven.

Pluto in the 12th-there are no aspects to pluto in the 5/5/2000 alignment. You said "I have thought a lot about this placement"-OF COURSE that is what pluto drives us to do-his reputation is the "destroyer"-pluto in the natal chart represents the area of life which must be torn down and built anew. Pluto is the ruler of scorpio, and scorpion issues are often other-worldy and always below the surface. Imagine Pluto as a gigantic backhoe digging up the things you have been trying to hide.

The 12th house is the house of dreams, the collective consciousness; the house which represents the whole from which we cam. With Pluto there you are really in tune with what is going on in groups around you-you always know what is in the air-It is sometimes frightening, for in a sence you can feel the world's pain-this is the natural house of pisces and pisceans are the most empathic folks in the zodiac. Also, the 12th is the house of institutions-You may or may have already benefitted from volunteering in a hospital, old folks home, foster parenting, or anything along those lines. If Pluto was particularly close to your ascendant, you may have had a difficult birth, or your mom may have had complications.

FWIW

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Interesting you all -

Is there an ephemeris online? for viewing current transits - i.e. 5/5/2000 alignment?

(The stockmarket event and this thread piqued my old interest. I used to do charts, but my ephemerii are buried in storage somewhere!)

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 16, 2000.

http://www.astro.ch/swisseph/

Debbie-try this url-it is a downloadable emphemeris. Welcome to the thread.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Thank you so much Debra and FS, I didn't realize you had these talents! Very interesting. It seems to explain how we all ended up getting so engaged in this conversation about time and consciousness. I always felt like I didn't belong on this planet!

I don't know how to read the charts, but for those of you that do, here is a good site for making them. Just put your birthtown in, submit, and continue. It will make about 20 different types of charts for you.

chart maker

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 16, 2000.

But wait Hawk!

We haven't talked about your moon in Gemini yet. The symbol for Gemini is the TWINS. It is like Gemini is two DIFFERENT people! This is the energy you are a MASTER at!!!! The Trickster!!

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Lol! Yeah, dated a Gemini for a while. She was a trickster too. I think my favorite was Sagittarius, we got along pretty well.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), April 16, 2000.

Hi again, everybody!

It's so nice to see everybody enjoying themselves in here! Clearly, you people have gotten on a topic that everyone can remain mature about.

I received an e-mail from Dr. Funkheuser (sp?) today, (the Dr. that FutureShock gave us a link to that I e-mailed) and now I don't know where to post it. It's fairly lengthy, and I don't want to muddle up this thread with an OT post because it's about deja vu and seizures.

tc, this is your thread, so I'll let you make the call. Should I post it here, or post it as a new thread?

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 16, 2000.

LOL...we've just been keeping ourselves busy until you got back!

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 16, 2000.

Laura:

I have not seen tc in awhile(Away for the weekend?) so I guess we can leave it until tomorrow. My suggestion, should we not here from tc, is to start a new thread-The input you are giving speaks to the nature of consciousness-a topic which a few of us have great interest.

This thread seems to have morphed into an astrology thread! Alrighty then. I am very interested in the response, Laura, and I really am impressed that you were able to get one.

Peace.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Hello all-- Future Shock--YES! I'm from Potter County, PA. Skinner's Eddy! If you are that near again, we should get together. Had two good friends in Lacyville.

Debra--thank you for all the information. I went to Hawk's site and got even more information. I'm so well "informed" I'm dizzy. I need to spend a lot of time figuring it out. Where do I begin?

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 16, 2000.

Pam:

Welcome back. My wife and I like to go to the StoneBridge Inn, over by the Elk Mountain Ski Area. We will be going there again over the July 4th weekend. The Inn is a bit of a way from where you are, but we always end up in Tunkannock(sp?) and thereabouts, antique shopping of course! I want to take my wife to the great gorge, so maybe on our way there, eh?

You have your chart now? I suggest a book by Howard Sasportas, titled "The Twelve Houses"-I picked it up in Barnes and Nobles-I am sure you could find it on-line. If this stuff fascinates you, you are in for a life-long journey-There is so much to learn-the learning will never end!

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 16, 2000.

Pam-

Out of curiosity-was I close to your rising sign (ascendant)? And how about your moon? Sometimes that's a close call too.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 17, 2000.

Good Morning,

It looks like tc hasn't gotten around to reading the board yet, so I think I'd better go ahead and post it without his input. Sorry, tc.

I'm going to post it as a separate thread because the topic is OT and I'm thinking I would like to send the whole thread to Dr. Funkheuser.

I'll have it posted in about half an hour, I have to go find FutureShock's original link.

~*~.

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 17, 2000.

Hi Debra--

Ascendant--11 degrees scorpio

Moon--2 Ari 32" 16'

Meaning?

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 17, 2000.

That chart stuff was pretty scary, Hawk. I hunted up the birth certificates for my kids to get the times, etc. The copy of my son's didn't include the time.

So...daughter #1 is supposed to have a mystical experience either through drugs or experiences with the occult. No way I'm going to bring that thought to her attention.

Daughter #2 has a good day today, but tomorrow is a good day for her to ask for a loan. Yeah...I'm not gonna bring THAT up either.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 17, 2000.

Pam:

Scorpio Ascendant: You appraoch thw world, and the world sees you, in a scorpion manner. You are seen as loyal and passionate, but also secretive and selective. You can probably count on one hand the people you really consider your friends. You are not one to have a bevy of acquaintences. You see the world as a deep mystery, and never, EVER, accept things on the surface. The scorpion is the ultimate skeptic, to a degree, but that does not mean they only accept science-Scorpio likes anything of the underworld or the unconscious. You must get tot he bottom of everything, hence your participation in this thread.

Aries Moon-The moon governs our emotions and issues of motherhood and the mother. An aries moon will have no trouble talking about how they feel-this moon is headstrong, and watch out when they get agree. Your emotions can be fire, and EVERYONE will know when you are upset. On the other hand, you can excell in speaking about your emotions, and thus healing yourself, because aries does not hide. You are the first, usually, within a group, to volunteer how you FEEL about an issue.

Sometimes the aries moon is in conflict with the scorpio ascendant, as scorpio prefers to hide. Another thing about scorpions for you to interpret for yourself-It is true that when cornered by a predator a scorpion will sting itself to death rather than succumb to the predator.

As a mom, your kids may see you as pushy, but all you ever wanted to do was to make sure they understood that, as far as you saw, they had to "go for it"-you wanted them to understand that nothing was just going to come to them. You may have seen your mom similarly; as headstrong and a bit manipulative. You vowed when you grew up not to be that way and have succeeded to a degree-but not completely.

Anything Fit?

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 17, 2000.

Hello Future--

Considering that my first posting to this forum was about wanting to stand up and be counted; my first post on this thread was a very open discussion of personal paranormal experiences; my post to gilda and Z was about liking but being able to stand the "ladies of the club" more than once a month, I'd say Naaaah (chuckle) you haven't got me right at all. Thank you very much for explaining. I need more time than I have right now to consider the other aspects.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 17, 2000.

Pam-

About the energy of Scorpio...

The water signs, Scorpio, Pisces, and Cancer, all have as the first phase of their training the necessity to feel the full range of feelings. Unique to Scorpio training ia a second phase requiring the person to learn to command the feelings. Scorpio training is the exact merging of will and desire. It does not operate theoretically; it operates out of mastery of the feelings and emotions. It is a tantric energy. Tantric can be defined as THE CURRENT OF LIFE ITSELF IS A PATH TO GOD, OR LIFE FORCE ENERGY AS A PATH TO GOD. The Scorpio path, six to eight thousand years ago, was associated with the path of sorcery and magic. Sorcery and magic are mysteries that deal with developing the will in order to command the earth, the water, the organic mysteries. This results in the empowering of personal energy.

Scorpio has been greatly misunderstood and compromised by patriarchy. Remember, the first requirement in Scorpio training is to be able to feel the feelings; the second requirement is to command the feelings. In our culture, feelings are not validated-therefore, Scorpio has often had to learn to deal with the feelings through denial, repression, suppression, and control in the negative sense of control. In Scorpio school (your Scorpio ascendant) in the current life, part of the curriculum of Scorpio is Control 101. If you don't learn control, you flunk the Scorpio curriculum.

Part of the survival lessons is to learn control, but it doesn't mean be attached to it. It means learning to bring your will in alignment with God's will. Scorpio's motto is: I WILL THAT MY WILL BE GOD'S WILL. Notice there are three wills mentioned and two of them are their own.

Scorpio training has to do with women's mysteries, the mysteries of death and rebirth. It is a belief, that Scorpio, in essence is not secretive. Scorpio became secretive for survival reasons. Many women with a Scorpio MOON resonate with the motif of having been burned at the stake. They feel if they were really to speak the truth about who they are, and about how they feel, or about what they desire, it would be unsafe for them. Historically a great many women in European history were killed for doing something as simple as gathering herbs.

Scorpio has a reputation of being a firewalker. Scorpio learns, not by reading about danger, but by experiencing it. These experiences let them know how they react to being on the edge. There is not alot of training for this in our present culture. When healthy Scorpio training is not available, then one takes advantage of what is available. This might mean fast motorcycles, or taking large amounts of passion-producing drugs, or going into rough biker bars or getting into other dangerous situations. Strong Scorpio or Pluto types tend to attrack to themselves the dark side of those around them. This is called being a shadow magnet.

Scorpio training is a shamanic training and similar to the Castenada view of sorcery. In Scorpio training life force energy (sexual) is the path to God. It is the complete descent into third dimensional reality, fully bringing spirit into matter, fully feeling the feelings and learning to command the experience, or to experience the deepest, most powerful emotional and physical realms and then to master them.

-------"You never know what enough is, until you know what more than enough is." -William Blake

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 17, 2000.

Hello Future and Debra-- We're back from dance lessons and I'm ready to tackle a bit more.

Certainly some of Scorpio fits rather well. Some misses by a mile. I'm not at all secretive and I'm about as straight arrow as you can get. Biker bars? BIKER BARS?!!! Well, it's a thought.

That scorpion stinging itself to death before a predator is certainly an interesting idea. If I were certain of the outcome, would I chose to commit an act or have someone else commit the same act on me. Oh, not a doubt in my mind--I would want to do it.

You're right--just a few friends. But good ones. There are obligations in friendship that I don't take lightly.

Debra--your words are OBSCURE. Darn near opaque. Scorpios contol matter by their feelings? I think we should be able to control matter with our minds--just haven't figured out how to do it yet. I do know I feel we were looking at time incorrectly. There is a wholeness to time somehow. Even though we digitize it into days and years etc.

But how come all the talk about Scorpio when I am a Cancer? Shouldn't the major input be Cancer and not Scorpio? Yep, I really don't know ANYTHING about astrology.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), April 17, 2000.

Hawk-

This may tend to get confusing. You have given us the following information so far about yourself:

You have a Gemini moon, an Aquarius sun, an Aquarius venus, a Sagittarius mars and a Leo ascendant. We still need your mercury, Jupiter and north node.

Whereas before you may only have thought of yourself as working with one energy (sun in Aquarius) now you know that you are working with a number of energies. Read everything you can about the signs to gain an understanding of the energies your working with. (Im wondering if you have any water or earth elements at all!)

Future Shock and I seem to differ only in the importance of the sun and thats good for you to understand because there are a number of different ways to read a chart. I bring this up only to clarify the importance of the energy of Aquarius in your chart.

You know yourself to have an Aquarius sun. You also have an Aquarius venus. Shamanic Astrology would place more importance on the Aquarius venus. If your venus were in another sign I would not be making this clarification. You may want to consider that the Aquarian energies youre familiar with and how they work in your life may have more to do with venus than the sun. It also would mean that you have been honoring your feminine. Now it may be time to honor your masculine also.

Venus is your inner feminine energy. Until you reach a certain level of consciousness this energy will be projected onto the women in your life. On a mans chart it is frequently associated with physical attraction and romantic love. It is the energy of your anima (your inner female). BTW-Women have an animus (inner male). It is like the women you are attracted to mirror this energy for you so that you may learn about it.

When you understand this and pull back your projections you are ready to work with this energy that YOU own. You will learn how your Sagittarius masculine energy can achieve union with your Aquarius feminine energy (your inner partner) . When the feminine and masculine energies work together in harmony in one person they achieve the sacred marriage. Its like you walk through life with your partner always on your arm. You are whole. With this sacred marriage there is usually a leap in consciousness.

Your pretty lucky here. Aquarius and Sagittarius are sextile which means that the energies work together pretty smoothly. They are harmonious. They have a lot in common. Compare that to my Gemini venus and Capricorn mars. They are inconjunct. They dont work all that smoothly together. They dont have much in common. Its like you pretty much have clear sailing in this area where I have some storm clouds rolling around.

Picture these partners:

Yours- The Hero (Masculine Sag) and the Female Avatar (Feminine Aquarius), The Vision Quester (Masculine Sag) and the Avant-Garde Visionary (Feminine Aquarius), The Philosopher-Pioneer (Masculine Sag) and the Goddess of Democracy (Feminine Aquarius), the seeker of cosmic consciousness (Masculine Sag) and the attainer of cosmic consciousness (Feminine Aquarius).

As compared to mine-

The Eternal Youth (Feminine Gemini) and the Elder (Masculine Capricorn), The Entertainer (Feminine Gemini) and the Lawgiver (Masculine Capricorn), The Woman Connected to her Creative Muse (Feminine Gemini) and the Exiled Scapegoat (Masculine Capricorn).

See how some aspects are easier to work with than others, see how your masculine and feminine energies work well together?

Your sun and venus is in Aquarius and you should be pretty familiar with that energy. What is new to your consciousness is the energy of Sagittarius. You should learn more about it and consciously work with it in your life. Where Aquarius is of the mental plane, Sagittarius is of the spiritual plane. Climb that mountain!!!

These are the tools you are presently working with. Your mercury (the way your mind works) and your Jupiter (where your lucky so to speak) are important tools also. We all get alittle confused (and many give up) trying to understand how all these different energies work within our consciousness. Take it one step at a time. Gather information about your particular energies. With this awareness you will begin to perceive how they are playing out in your life in different areas. With that perception you can begin to consciously work with them. Remember their INTENT. Aquarians (or whichever energy) all have the same INTENT but they are not all the same. There are CONSCIOUS Aquarians and UNCONSCIOUS Aquarians and every level in between.

Next you need to become conscious of the tribe you come from (your Gemini moon) and the tribe youre working at belonging to (your Leo ascendant).

Do you have your North Node?

BTW- Your energies indicate that you are both thinking (air signs) and intuitive (fire signs). There are things that you know because of the "facts" and things that you know without even understanding why. But you know them none the less. (3 words?) Your intuition is something you'll need to get used to.

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 18, 2000.

Good morning, Debra. Could you give me the link again for the shamanic astrology site? Thanks.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 18, 2000.

Pam-

"But how come all the talk about Scorpio when I am a Cancer? Shouldn't the major input be Cancer and not Scorpio?" -Pam

You are not working with only one energy. We are all a mixture of energies. Just as you have known yourself to be a sun sign Cancer you are also a moon sign Aries, a venus sign Leo, an ascendant Scorpio, etc..

These are the energies that were "hard wired" into you at birth but it doesn't end there. These energies are affected by the house placement and the aspects. Then there are the transits. There are degrees. It takes time and study to comprehend all of it.

I am not an astrologer as Future Shock is. I am "saturated" right now with studying the archetypes of the signs. I think that is the best place to begin if you have an interest in learning about astrology. First I learned about my energies, my signs. Then to get the "bigger picture" I learned about the other signs. It helped me to get my bearings. How do my energies compare with or fit into the whole? On which waves am I riding?

"Debra--your words are OBSCURE. Darn near opaque. Scorpios contol matter by their feelings?" -Pam

LOL...Obscure and opaque WOULD be the words to describe Scorpion energy! But Shamanic Astrology speaks to the archetypes and symbols of the signs. Think of it as a colorful way to "stir" the imagination/energies. (think of the ENERGY in a biker bar)

Scorpio's requirements are to feel the feelings and to command the feelings. It is about the exact merging of will and desire. I don't believe I said that they "control matter by their feelings."

"Certainly some of Scorpio fits rather well. Some misses by a mile. I'm not at all secretive and I'm about as straight arrow as you can get. Biker bars? BIKER BARS?!!!" -Pam

Remember it's about INTENT. All Scorpios have the same intent but not all Scorpios are alike. Some have used and Mastered this energy, some are in the process of learning about it and some have little to do with it at all. Your chart says you ARE learning about it or at least you need to learn about it. When you say "some misses by a mile" it sounds like you are still thinking astrology tells you who you are. Astrology speaks to possibilities of growth not stagnation. That's something you need to always remember.

Aries (your moon) is about fire/spirit and Scorpio (your ascendant) is about water/feelings. Think of your moon as where you come from, what you know and your ascendant as where you are going, what you need to learn. Think of Aries in the realm of the spirit and think of Scorpio in the realm of the underworld.

Think of a high dive. Picture yourself very high up in the realm of the spirit getting ready to take the plunge into the ocean. It is a long drop!!! This gives you an idea of how YOUR chart reads. You will need courage.

I read somewhere that no other sign is stronger than Aries than Scorpio. It was worded that way to respect Aries strength. If it was worded no other sign is stronger than Scorpio Aries strength would be lost among the other signs. You are dealing with some very strong energies here. You are a Master at Aries energies so you certainly have the courage for the PLUNGE!

BTW...I bet your wondering why your even thinking about this!!

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 18, 2000.

Future Shock - Good Morning

Daniel Giamario does have a site. It can be found at:

http://www.shamanicastrology.com/

Sorry, I don't know how to link.

I would highly recommend "The Shamanic Astrology Handbook".

Also the book by Caroline W. Casey entitled "Making the Gods Work for You" is good. I like what it says on the back of the book:

"Those whose shoes are not nailed to the floor will find a lot of walking in this book."

-- Debra (time@space.com), April 18, 2000.

Is it later than we think?

-- Sid Viscious (anarchy@ the.UK), November 28, 2000.