The New Countryside for May wasn't down at my favorite Newsstand the other day so I picked up TMEN. This is something I rarely do as I am not impressed by their politics, especially lately. A case in point is a letter in the Dear mother section in which the author is talking about his philosophy about all us homesteaders. He basically says that we all need to move to cities and towns and stop "scaring off more mountain lions and owls" and "ruining the veiwshed for everyone". The thing that gripes me about this stuff is that I have read repeated articles in the above mentioned Magazine over the years with a decided bent against private property, population control via enforcement, and other frankly communist ideals. The thing that gets me is that most of the time the people with these philosophies are the same people that live in nice middle or upper class neighborhoods and the veiwshed they have is just another house. I went to town yesterday and drove around looking at the area. I started counting food producing plants in landscaping. The thing is, if more people in this country who lived in town would replace their landscaping with food producing plants we could truly feed not only the U.S. but also the world(assuming we could get the food to them). In California, where I live, it is decidedly not encourage to feed yourself on your tract home property. Recently in my county someone was forced to get rid of their rabbits due to neighbor complaints. Even your garden can bother people if you don't have the perfect postage stamp lawn and acceptable landscaping. To me this is waste beyond belief. If every fruitless mulberry was replaced with a walnut or pecan, If every hedge was replaced with fruiting bushes, if every lawn was replaced with a vegetable garden, then I think not only would the families inside be fed but perhaps they could take some down to the inner city, for apartment dwellers. I guess what I am saying is that I'm sick and tired of those who would rather sweep my environmental doorstep than look in their own $1,000,000 back yards. It seems highly hypocritical to me to carry your recycleables out to the corner in their little divided containers and at the same time ignore the waste and misuse of land in your oh so manicured yard.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 13, 2000

Answers

YOU SAID A MOUTHFUL & I agree whole heartedly!!!!!!

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), April 13, 2000.

Hey! Something we agree on! Maybe there is hope for us yet. I have subscribed to TMEN for years, because every once in a while they do have a good artical or two. I keep thinking I'm going to let it lapse though, just because of the kind of crap you mentioned. I think this year is going to do it.

-- Les (lvaughn@suntransformer.com), April 13, 2000.

Oh dear! Now that's a can of worms. I agree with you as well. I haven't read an issue of Mother in a very long time for exactly the same reasons you stated. Seems it's now geared to those who's political beliefs are slightly to the left of mine and those YUPS who think it's "quaint" to drive around on a tractor on the occasional weekend. Nothing wrong with that I guess. It just doesn't fit my lifestyle. I'd place 2 - 1 odds that the individual complaining about his "viewshed" (is that really a word?) lives in a cookie cutter sub. and drives a HUGE SUV. Oh they care deeply about the environment all right, but can't quite bring themselves to the realization of how much environmental destruction and resource exploitation it took to build that sheet metal monster, let alone just to fuel it. Now I've nothing really against SUVs as long as the owners aren't...shall we say...hypocritical. Reminds me of a person I used to see occasionally on my way back and forth to work some time ago. Had a great, big "Love your Mother", environmentalist bumper sticker on her Explorer, which she drove at about 90 mph, weaving in and out of traffic. Sorry to rant. Must be a sore spot for me since the woman nearly ran me over a couple of times.

-- Steve in TN (lynswim@mindspring.com), April 13, 2000.

I completly agree with you! What is really sickening to me is that the fruit trees I have seen in towns and cities are going to waste.Even in our area, which is the type of place where dumpster diving is common and acceptable, every fall I see apple trees loaded with unpicked fruit. Sometimes the branches are actually breaking under the weight of the fruit! When I can I like to pick them, feed the really wormy ones to the goats, make applesauce,pie, etc. I had a friend that did this, and during the winter he lived on little else but squash and apples! I have seen citrus trees in California loaded with unpicked grapefruits,lemons,etc. What's really sad is that the storebought citrus cannot even compare to the kind that is getting wasted every day. It would be really neat if people could get organized, and trade 50 lbs of apples for 50 lbs of lemons and oranges,I have heard that artichokes are a weed in CA, here they can cost $2.00 or more each! I read a letter in the utne reader a few days ago that decried cattle ranching in the west because cattle ranchers kill wolves and other predators occasionally. These are the same people who are against factory farming, you'd think they would prefer ranching to feedlots! But aren't we selecting and actually helping the wolves and bears when we kill off the kind that has lost it's fear of humans and don't bother to hunt their natural prey? And really, cattle or no, there is plenty of natural prey available out there. If we just sit back and let them eat our livestock, soon our children will be next! As for scaring off owls,we see owls on our homestead all the time, our pond is frequented by osprey diving for fish,also great blue herons. If anything, the mountain lions here have gotten a little too bold for my comfort, not scared off, the same goes for bears. These people need to get a grip on reality!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 13, 2000.

I know that the waste in the area of use is tremendous also. Fortunately in our area our food bank takes donations of extra tree fruit and such. The problem is that the public needs re-education in the preservation of food. People today are more interested in little packages than they are in real food. We have all these yuppies flocking to farmers markets and saying they want organic but they want it all wrapped up in a nice neat package. My sister-in-law won't eat eggs from chickens she says only from the grocery store. People today go into culture shock when they have to deal with where their food comes from. I say get a grip! The reality of life and death is there no matter how long you try to run away from it.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 13, 2000.

I agree on some points, but all of calif is not like that. In our town you are allowed chickens and rabbits.I think the problem is people just dont know how to harvest things any more. I used to do the yard of thes 2 older ladies and in the fall the pecans from the neighbors yard were falling so I got some, and the older ladys said the pecans were know good, well i took some to feed to the birds and when i opened them about 3 months latter they were great. My point is if these ladys in there 80s didnt know you have to dry pecans then it shows how far weve been removed from harvesting our food. Most people have know Idea how to can food.And we wont even go into bugs on the home grown produce. I think edible landscaping should be in all developments[ davis city did it]and there should be a chicken in every yard [great for scraps]. out of time got to go pick up my son.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), April 13, 2000.

On the subject of foolishness, when my husband and I were forestry students at Sheldon Jackson College in Sitka, Alaska, the environmentalists were being really nasty about clear-cutting -- I think they ended up prevailing in most areas. And in a mixed hardwood forest such as grows in most of the east, they were right, that selective cutting is usually better. But in the Pacific Northwest, it isn't. Douglas fir need light to grow, which clear- cutting provides. And they were insisting on logged areas being replanted, when natural regeneration was producing such thick stands in only a few years that they had to be thinned. I could go on for a long time but I guess my point is that these people live in a city or the 'burbs and don't have a clue about anything but freeway exits, and want to go out in the country and tell the people who LIVE there and KNOW their environment how to do things. Sure, not all country people do what they ought too -- lack of wisdom isn't restricted to urbanites -- but they're a whole lot more likely to know what ought to be done and how to do it.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 13, 2000.

Hi, Your posting is on the button, but as we all know, few people in cities care. All they want is to say they belong to some organization that promotes feel-good ideas, and that's enough sweat off their brow.

My region has similar problems plus the extreme of city people actually threatening to kill homesteaders *for* planting trees. Arson, vandalism, mega-littering, theft, attempted murder, it used to happen every single day around here, and that was from local branches of law enforcement (they account for roughly 95% of all crime in this county). The one and only solution for us was to stand up and tell everyone a very loud and strong "no". After five years we're now pretty much left alone, everyone knowing I won't take anything from anyone. (Maybe the way I carry my sniper rifle has something to do with it?) I'll always bend over backwards for a person in need, but never forwards. Too many people today believe everyone else was born to serve them. As long as people keep bowing to moronic socially acceptable fads, it won't get better.

Hopefully no one will ever have what my region has, but its spreading. In time, maybe another generation, a choice will be forced upon all people, to either do what's right, or watch our children suffer a wretched existence.

But meanwhile, our little homestead is doing great, we're well fed, happy, content, and laid-back. We have it all, but it didn't come without determination.

-- Larry (sesquiq@mail.com), April 13, 2000.

I really do agree with you and well said!!

I would also wish (ok really wish) when people from the city move to the country, they keep .. oh goodness how to say this..... don`t move to the country and bring all that noise pollution ie super loud radios all day and night,,,They run all kinds of smelly machines,, ( my young son has Asthma,, and it is trigger by smoke and fumes from machines, so he has gotten alot worse since they moved in) and they let their dogs run Freeeeeee, so they can pack up and kill our heritage livestock that we have breeding for manys years. We are as organic as a farm can be,, we believe in helping the land not harming it. Then city folk move in a use all those nasty chemicals,, and there is nothing we can do about it. :( Sigh..... It is almost like people do not have manners any more. Or Country folk are so different from City folk,,,and I sure cannot understand City folk.

Sorry do not mean to grumble so much.

-- bergere (autumnhaus@aol.com), April 13, 2000.

I agree! I am so tired of TMEN lately. As one person said they subscribe hoping it will trun around and have a few good articles. I recently purchased through internet auctions several back issues.. I almost have the entire collection, and was amazed at how more homesteader orientated they were back in the 70's. I just shake my head at the direction the magazine has taken lately. anyways... here in VA., what is beginning to become an issue are so called yuppie politicans who live in the nice suburbian regions such as DC and VA. Beach. They recently complained about the smells of a farm and proposed some hefty legislation to penalize farmers here. One was that if the farm smelled and bothered the neighbors the neighbor could sue. that went over like a lead balloon and then the assembly had to give the burden of passage to the local communities. Then there was another provision that said if the dirt or dust bothered they could sue as well. What started this was one yuppie rep. living in VA. Beach who was dead set against farming... especially big hog farming operations. This is still being chewed over by many localities in VA. still. I agree big industrial hog farming or chicken farming is not productive on the whole as its impossible to effectively manage an big farm like that without problems. I sure wish we could go back to the small farmer supplying enough for the community instead. I think a lot of problems such as e-coli in food would be prevented. I worry about government placing too strict of regs on small farmers and then here we go... out.. same with homesteaders. I am just so sick of the "wanna be farmers" yuppies... they just don't know.. guess that makes them ignorant! Enough of my 2 cents worth here.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 15, 2000.

If you want to read a magazine that is written by the "original" TMEN group then get BackHome Magazine.TMEN was sold and moved out of NC back in the 70's or 80's.BackHome is out of Hendersonville,NC where the THEM was founded and by alot of the original editors.

-- Barbara in KY (conlane@prodigy.net), April 15, 2000.

I have done a lot of alternative energy design and construction. I used to read the MEN, and often wondered if the were trying to encourage or DISCOURAGE alternative energy and gentle living, so poor were some of the ideas there.

I don't know if I was being paranoid or not. Is it possible that they deliberately wanted to frustrate people in their endeavors?

Surely not. And yet, they were like the guy in the BC comic strip who "reinvented the wheel" by changing it from a square into a triangle, thus "eliminating one bump".

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), April 17, 2000.

I just reread all the posts here, and started realizing that there is a common thread among many of them. The conflicts between city slickers and country bumkins, between the yuppies and their "rights" to an uncluttered "viewshed" versus their neighbors whose homes and/or farms are IN said "viewsheds", the smelly pig farms versus the suburban neighbors, the city folks with their loud radios, and all the rest--they all point to a problem we are only going to see getting worse and worse, until we learn to keep our zippers in the "up" position. There's just too many people, and the more we have, the more conflicts there will be between city and rural lifestyle, between pig farmer and "gentleman" farmer, between tree farmer and tree hugger, and on and on.

As far as "the government" putting more and more restrictions on things, well get used to it. If we can't get our own house in order, there are only too many boo-rats willing to step in and settle our differences. Zip it up!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), April 17, 2000.

The solution to this problem has very little to do with population and a lot to do with how the population expects to get in everyone elses business. Even in a state with the population of California If you start at one point and walk you can find as much land as you want within a few miles. Population isn't the problem. The thing is that never before in American history has our fellow man felt it was his right to tell each and everyone of us what to do with our lives. JOJ has no right to tell me how many children I should have just as I have no right to tell him how many not to have. As a mother of four I think our biggest problem hasn't got anything to do with how many children there are, but the fact that most parents have taken leave of their children. Children today get raised by their peer group. Last time I checked there wasn't a child out there capable of raising children. In fact we have too many of them doing just that, which is creating more than a few of our problems. I believe in raising lots of children who are taught morality and values and I stay home to make sure it happens. There are a lot of us out there and someday maybe we can turn around this mess we call a world around. It never ceases to amaze me how society leaves every value that makes for a healthy world and then complains because it is bad. Now I know nobody's gonna like what I think but here is a list. 1) We left two parent families and then we complain when children are unhappy 2) We left sexual responsibilty and then we complain because there are too many people. 3) We left our children off at the school doorstep and then we complain because they don't listen to us 4) We left the Constitution and then we complain because the government takes advantage of us 5) Mother's left their homes and then we complain because our kids grow up into morons with no respect for others 6) We left the farm and then we complain that the farms are disappearing. 7) We made living beings into nothing more than tissue and then we complain when the murder rate rises. 8) We took people's right to defend themselves away and then we complain when people shoot a hundred people in a McDonalds 9) We invaded people's property and then we complain when Janet Reno arrives with her squad of assassins. 10) We got rid of God and then we complain when people are evil.

In short we have abandoned almost everything that make a safe happy society and then we complain it is bad. I say, Wake Up! If this is the kind of society you wanted then just quit complaining about it. You can not leave morality behind and then expect that things will just go on as they have. It doesn't folks!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 17, 2000.

The solution to this problem has very little to do with population and a lot to do with how the population expects to get in everyone elses business. Even in a state with the population of California If you start at one point and walk you can find as much land as you want within a few miles. Population isn't the problem. The thing is that never before in American history has our fellow man felt it was his right to tell each and everyone of us what to do with our lives. JOJ has no right to tell me how many children I should have just as I have no right to tell him how many not to have. As a mother of four I think our biggest problem hasn't got anything to do with how many children there are, but the fact that most parents have taken leave of their children. Children today get raised by their peer group. Last time I checked there wasn't a child out there capable of raising children. In fact we have too many of them doing just that, which is creating more than a few of our problems. I believe in raising lots of children who are taught morality and values and I stay home to make sure it happens. There are a lot of us out there and someday maybe we can turn around this mess we call a world around. It never ceases to amaze me how society leaves every value that makes for a healthy world and then complains because it is bad. Now I know nobody's gonna like what I think but here is a list. 1) We left two parent families and then we complain when children are unhappy 2) We left sexual responsibilty and then we complain because there are too many people. 3) We left our children off at the school doorstep and then we complain because they don't listen to us 4) We left the Constitution and then we complain because the government takes advantage of us 5) Mother's left their homes and then we complain because our kids grow up into morons with no respect for others 6) We left the farm and then we complain that the farms are disappearing. 7) We made living beings into nothing more than tissue and then we complain when the murder rate rises. 8) We took people's right to defend themselves away and then we complain when people shoot a hundred people in a McDonalds 9) We invaded people's property and then we complain when Janet Reno arrives with her squad of assassins. 10) We got rid of God and then we complain when people are evil.

In short we have abandoned almost everything that make a safe happy society and then we complain it is bad. I say, Wake Up! If this is the kind of society you wanted then just quit complaining about it. You can not leave morality behind and then expect that things will just go on as they have. It doesn't folks! It get worse and worse until anarchy reigns.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 17, 2000.

Little bit, I agree with SOME of your credoes. But not all. And I cannot understand how you can say that "The solution to this problem has very little to do with population and a lot to do with how the population expects to get in everyone elses business"

Surely you must see that when there are so many people living in close proximity, there are going to be a lot more people getting into each others' business.

Surely you can see that this is a finite planet we live on, with a finite amount of air into which we are spewing pollutants, a finite amount of water which we are polluting and overpumping.

Surely you can see that being able to walk in any direction you want in California and find land is not a measure of how much population the planet is capable of supporting.

Surely you can see that more and more people means more and more pressure on the planet, and on each other. And it's going to keep getting worse, until we learn to limit our family size.

Either we do it voluntarily, or "Uncle" will do it for us.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), April 18, 2000.

Been to calif latly [ or washington, oregon, ect]There is very little usable land left, In my town and surounding ones they are putting golf courses and housing tracks up evey were. Bare land with know wells, fences or power is over one hundred thousand for 5 acres with out a house and that is a good deal around here. Our house in washington the realtors keep trying to buy because its on a large lot and they could put two more houses up on the same lot.

-- kathy h (saddlebr0nc@msn.com), April 18, 2000.

I think Little Bit is right on every one of her points. There are countries where there are a lot more people per square mile than here in the US -- not that any of us would want to live like the peasants in Bangladesh, for example -- but the thing is, they (presumably)get along reasonably well with their neighbors in spite of the overcrowding -- because they are all in the same boat and have the same expectations. I suspect that we are developing more of a class- divided society, and them with the power and the money get to regulate the rest of us. But really population isn't the problem, it's self-centeredness (I want my view or my woods to play in or my [whatever] and I'm not going to share). But we do have to be considerate of other people even if they aren't considerate of us. Otherwise the problems are as much our fault as theirs.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 18, 2000.

I live in California! Now it depends on the part of California you live in, but even in L.A. and the Silicon Valley You can be out in the country within less than 1/2 an hour. Personally where I live I could walk for 25 miles to 60 miles and not hit a town, Depending upon the direction you choose to walk. You can't tell me that all the usable land is taken up in California. Let me tell you, not only is there a ton of usable land the government ought to return some it has stolen from the people. The lionshare of property owned in this state is in the hands of the government. The problem in this country is misuse of land. The amount of food that could be grown for all these wythical people could be doubled, tripled, quadrupled. That is why the government pays people not to grow crops every year. Ever heard of CRP. This country feeds the world on a very small amount of land, comparatively. The reason people in underdeveloped countries have so many problems is because they don't have the freedom to determine their own destinies. If you want to solve a problem in this world forget about population and start solving the problems of tyrranny, dictatorship, slavery and communism. Governments keep their people from achieving greatness. They hold them down and push them under. Americans have all these "we are the world" people runnig around the globe putting out fires started not because of too much population but because people have a greedy desire to control everyone else. It is called POWER folks. The reason American farmers have been able to feed so many people, the reason other countries come begging to us for our food is because we have the freedom to produce it. Freedom folks! It all comes down to that in the long run. God Bless America!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 19, 2000.