Recently a friend told me about a big famly squabble over a roadside memorial. Her nephew was killed in an auto accident. He and his two sisters were strong enviornmentalists, and the three of them hated the crosses, flowers, doo-dads and stuff that people put on the highway right-of-way when someone is killed.

In fact they and their mother had a heated argument over roadside flowers, etc., because the mother thought they were nice. Now she wants to put up a cross and flowers surrounded by rocks on the right-of-way. The two girls are furious. They say she has no respect for their brother's beliefs on this subject. She says it would make her feel better. They say it's just adding more junk to the earth. She says it will let people know she cares about her son.

Frankly, I think they are tacky and just more roadside trash. Anyone else like them? In fact I wonder why Highway Departments allow them. After all, when you litter, you can be fined.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 07, 2000

Answers

Maybe if they were made out of rubber so they could not damage other cars. I have seen metal crosses as well as wood. Perhaps placing the ashes of the deceased at the location would suffice.

They do make me think and slow down. OTOH they are depressing. I just can't make a decision on this very important topic. Should we petition for a vote? One more law on the books won't hurt anything.

Do you ever see a Star of David? What would a SP do?.....plant a flower? Let's put this one to bed before my bedtime.

And a big thank you to gilda for posting the post I would never have thought of...:)

-- muy (xyz@666.ed), April 07, 2000.

Gilda, Lean back, take a few deep breaths, and relax. From what you've stated, the mother isn't interested in honoring the wishes of the boy who died, or those of his sisters who all held that roadside crosses were out.

Otherwise, these mini-memorials have been around since old man Ford rolled his first model T off the assembly line. What's the harm? Who is hurt? And, isn't this a subtle reminder to many a driver to use some caution? There's one memorial, down the road from me, for a young boy that was hit while he was speeding across the road on his ATV. He was twelve or thirteen. Every time I pass and notice the cross made out of two baseball bats (his) I go for a little prayer of rememberance for this young boy. No, I didn't know him, have no idea who he was. But, I take my foot off the gas and remember his passing.

What a thing to do. I must remember to turn myself into the "Thought Police."

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), April 07, 2000.

Sure beats looking at the road kill!

-- Eeeeeewe (There'sAnother@Chunk.com), April 07, 2000.

Compared to real roadside eyesores, roadside memorials are fairly infrequent and never bother me. They do make me think that it's sad that 40,000+ people are killed in automobile accidents each year.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), April 07, 2000.

Gilda, you should go to Ireland and see the road signs.A large round black spot on a white backdrop like a stop sign. And referred to as same. "A black spot". A place where people died in a road accident. To remind drivers to slow down, mind the curve, the sheep crossing, the dip, the hedges obstructing the view etc. State sponsored, taxpayer supported. Not nearly as lovely as our simple roadside crosses in the ditch with flowers. Their signs are ominous and nerve jarring. But on the other hand, the Irish also promote "the beauty spot", which we would call a "scenic overlook". My opinion: let the poor, grieving mothers whose children were killed by drunk drivers put a few wreaths by the road. It's the same as tossing a floral bouquet overseas at a shipwreck/air accident. It is the spot where a beloved one's soul was forcibly made to leave this all too fragile world and join eternity. Often far too young as well. Now if you want a real trash debate, how about the roadsigns that say "This section of highway cleanup and beautification program was sponsored by your local branch of the KKK".

-- A tolerant world traveler (internation@ldriver.com), April 07, 2000.

Depending on what part of the US you live in, there are many or few. Here in the southwest, roadside memorials are a cultural tradition for those of Hispanic and Indian origin. They number in the thousands but each is unique in their remembrance of a loved one. The living do it to remember the dead, and pass it on to the next generation. Here it is one of our treasured southwestern traditions. We treat them with respect and make no judgements. The building of them are part of the death rituals in the locally rich culture. If they serve as reminders of safety to others, so much the better, IMHO.

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), April 07, 2000.

Richard, I'm with you. When I see a roadside cross, especially a fairly recent one with decorations, I say a prayer for the person(s) who died there, and for their loved ones.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 07, 2000.

Whenever I see a roadside cross, I check my speedometer and usually slow down. Anyone else?

-- (nom@ohme.com), April 07, 2000.

Whenever I see one of these roadside memorials I think of the wasted life or lives involved and reflect on my good fortune to be alive. And I check my speedometer also.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

>> Frankly, I think they are tacky and just more roadside trash. <<

In Greece, there are little roadside shrines set up. Usually a little white box with a windowed front door, set on a post. Inside the shrine is a photo of the loved one, perhaps an icon, a small oil lamp, some artificial flowers. If it were in your living room, it might be as tacky as all get out. But that is beside the point in my view.

These objects are selected and placed out of enormous grief and with tremendous love. The worthiness of the intention removes any stigma of their being "trash" in my mind.

gilda, have you ever lost anyone whose absence left a gaping hole and an unquenchable ache? This is the way some folks deal with that loss.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 08, 2000.

gilda,

My first experince was along HWY 111 on the northeast side of the Salton Sea, 1950 or so. My father pointed out crosses beside the road that belonged to Southern Pacific railroad workers who died many years before laying track that paralleled the highway. The crosses have been gone for many years now. I miss them every time I pass that way.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), April 08, 2000.

Of course people always assume that you haven't lost anyone close to you, or you would be more sensitive to this issue dripping with bathos. Does a person's personal grief always take precedence over the wishes of the rest of the family, or even the public, who often would like to enjoy the scenery without more junk added to the beauty of nature.

There's already enough fast food wrappers, beer cans and bottles, diapers, cigarette packages, plastic bags, styrofoam cups and tons other junk littering our roads from coast to coast already without adding more.

Why do people feel the need to parade their grief in numerous places. Why not do something constructive and plant wildflowers along side the road, making a living memorial. That's what the two sisters did near where their brother was killed. Of course it's so much easier to buy arrangements and crosses and plunk them down at the side of the road than it is to do make something lovley and beneficial, that requires a spade and a little work.

And it seems to me that most people who have lost loved ones have cemetary plots as a place to go and remember their dead relatives or friends. Isn't this the purpose of Memorial Day, cemetaries and urns.

Yes Brian, I have lost someone "whose absence left a gaping hole and unquenchable ache," in me, and in my son when he was a teen, and lost the father he adored. It changed our lives overnight in more ways than one. He was killed in an accident on a bridge; hit by a speeding, idiot teenager in a rage at his parents. He would have hated a roadside memorial.

Also my friend's daughter, whom I was very close to, was killed on this same bridge when it was icy. Of course it's against the law to place memorials on bridges, so if we wanted to nitpick, we could wring our hands in anguish, and petition to obstruct the bridge to satisfy our personal grief, or selfishness, so we could have a memorial. We could claim that we were being discriminated against.

This practice of roadside memorials has recently caused just such a flap here in this area. We live on a huge lake and someone placed a floating styrofoam heap, anchored to the lake bottom, where a person was killed in a boating accident. The Water Partrol removed it as a safety hazard, and the family was incensed. But this memorial could very easily cause an accident or injury if it were caught in a prop, or hit by a skier. In my younger days, while water skiing, I hit a set of keys someone had lost in the lake, which were on a floating key chain, and I have the scar on my ankle to memorialize the occasion. Also, my favorite aunt and her son were killed in another state while on vacation by a hit and run driver. What purpose would it serve to put a memorial beside the road, where it would fade and turn into trash, in a state where the family probably would never again visit.

And what about my father who died in the hospital of a heart attack. Shouldn't we be allowed to put a cross and flowers and rocks on the hospital lawn, or in the hall. Or my present husband, whose wife died of cancer, shouldn't he have a memorial somewhere in that hospital to make people pause and think about the effects of smoking.

How about nursing homes, shouldn't relatives be allowed to hang plastic flowers on styrofoam crosses on the lawn, the doors, or line the driveway of the facility. Surely this would make all of you who are so conscientious about checking your speed at these roadside shrines to stop and consider that it would be better to slow down and not get any older.

BTW, we live in a beautiful area, and this detracts from the natural beauty, especailly when the ribbons blow off and the stuff is strung along the road. In some places people have even dug up wildflowers to set up their tacky shrines, and there have been numerous reports of wildlife, choking on the brightly colored plastic and ballons that looks like something to eat.

It seems to me that if we have roadside memorials, then memorial should either be allowed everywhere or nowhere. If a thief murders a person in a family home, and is shot down by police on the family's lawn, should the murderer's family be allowed to place a memorial near the site of his death?

Concerning the KKK and their sign. I'm all for picking up trash, and have picked up miles of it. But I don't need a sign to shout to the world that I pick up trash, and neither do any of these organizations. Why do we have to have signs to announce our good deeds. As far as the KKK picking up trash, it beats the hell out of burning crosses and parading around in sheets.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 08, 2000.

I remember my mom and dad once arguing about whether my mom made tastier ham than my aunt. Mom finally went to bed, slammed the door behind her, and refused to talk to dad for two days....all because he wouldn't agree that HER ham was tastier! It seems that other families are fond of "sweating the small stuff", as well, and in the case you cite, Gilda, these folks should realize quite well just how short life is.

My personal opinion would be to allow a natural, biodegradable memorable on a publicly owned roadside. The safety of the living should be considered in the "plan" if one intends to indulge in such a memorial. I think plastic flowers are an abomination anyway. CERTAINLY styrofoam shouldn't be allowed. I like the idea of planting wildflowers. Of course, as mentioned in the thread on death, my family doesn't hold these death rituals in high esteem, so this isn't something in which I'd engage.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 08, 2000.

Anita, my family does hold these performances in high esteem, but I don't.

I don't want any memorials period! And I hate styrofoam, plastic, and tacky geegaws worse than anything. But I have a friend that got me into wildflowers, and I plant themeverywhere I can find a spot, and they are so lovely along the road. Also, they will survive drougth much better than other flowers.

I too, would like to be buried on my property without any brouhaha, without embalming chemicals, or make up or a casket that costs big bucks and takes years to break down. Do they ever???? I'd like to just go back into the earth like we are supposed to. Hopefully my body would enrich the soil, which surely could use some enriching in this part of the state.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 08, 2000.

Everytime I see one of them Decorations,particularly when it is in an Area that has no Hazards or difficulty traversing,I wonder if the Driver was on Drugs or Alcohol.

-- Lost4Answers (xx@yy.zz), April 08, 2000.

I spent many years during the 80s living and working in Texas. I owned some businesses in a small town in central Texas called San Marcos. One evening, the 15 year old Daughter of a local family was killed in a one car freak accident on a FM road just outside of town. The family was devastated and a makeshift memorial was put up on the side of the road where the accident occurred. The girls Father was especially grief-stricken and could be found crying uncontrollably at his daughters roadside memorial.

As weeks past, the site became somewhat of a shrine and took on an appearance of permanence. The girls family could no longer bear to remain in the area and moved to San Antonio. The Father arranged with a local florist in San Marcos to have fresh flowers setout once a week at the roadside site. He publicly stated that that spot was where his daughters spirit would remain for eternity and over the years he was known to return and speak to her. I saw this in a very personal way and Ive never seen such long-lasting grief as suffered by the father.

The girls Dad is country music legend George Strait.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 08, 2000.

Ra, that is a sad story. But just because some people go to extremes to display their grief, and I'm not saying they do it intentionally, it does not mean that they suffer one bit more than the person who grieves in private. As my grandma used to say, "Some people enjoy hanging crepe and sniffing forever."

OK, so you've "never seen such long-lasting grief as suffered by the father." Just because the father was George Strait, does not make his grief any longer-lasting than my friend who lost her daughter on the bridge. My friend didn't have the luxury of being able to have a florist set out flowers once a week at the road side either. In fact, she had to get back to work with only about five days off.

She and I both cross that fatal brige every time we go to town. This is not a bid for smypathy, this is just a fact. And at the time, of our separate tragedies, moving wasn't an option for either of us. Tragedy happens, and after the devastating grief is over, one should get on with thier life. However I did know one woman who became a professional mourner and bored everyone who knew her to death.

And when two of my cousins three daughters were killed in a car wreck, they were devastated, but they had a horse ranch to run, and another daughter who had to be considered, and they to had to get on with it, like it or not.

I'm not saying all people should keep a stiff upper lip all the time, but I certainly admire those that do. And I have a lot more smypathy for someone that has to get back to work, and carry on, than I do someone who has the luxury of moving, or whatever it takes to make life easier for them.

Somehow, it seems instead of addressing the question of whether the mother, or the sons wishes should have been implemented, this thread has become agung-ho testimonial to roadside shrines, and to make sure that everyone that wants to erect a shrine to their personal tragedy should be allowed to do so, with the exception of Anita.

No I've never seen a Star of David on one of these shrines.

And as far as "it beats looking at roadkills." Road kills break down and go back into the earth, or are eaten by buzzards and other birds. They do not fade and turn into more litter, or choke birds and other wildlife.

Maybe we should erect shrines to every pet that is killed on the highway, or how about shrines to cars we loved but were destroyed in the wrecks. I have a dishwasher that is over 30 years old, and is beginning to wear out; maybe I should have it bronzed and set in a place of honor. How about shrines for turtles smashed on the highway, and birds hit by cars and bugs and moths and those poor highway signs and poles that are smashed. For those who have the money, they could put up billboards at the site of the tragedy. I see a whole new industry here for ostentatious mourning. I can see it now! PROCLAIM YOUR GRIEF TO THE WHOLE WORLD! Call Ready Billboards!

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 08, 2000.

Hi Gilda. I think you know that I am somewhat of a fan of yours and have always enjoyed your postings and cutting edge humor. That being said I am surprised at your feelings regarding the subject of roadside memorials. I guess I came to expect more from you then this. What I mean is that this subject doesnt seem worthy of your strong feelings but who am I to say. My point with the George Strait recollection was the overwhelming connection that loved ones have to the spot of demise, so to speak. BTW, Ill keep an eye out for a bronzed dishwasher as Im driving through ____?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 08, 2000.

gilda,

Obviously, you believed my question implied that you had never felt such grief. I am sorry I did not make myself clearer. I asked, because I had no right to assume.

I brought it up, because I thought that it might help you to recognize your point of contact with the other mourners who set up these roadside memorials and to use that point of contact as the basis for understanding and tolerance of their actions.

You ask why some people insist on parading their grief in public. That question assigns a motive - that the purpose of setting up the memorial is simply to turn one's grief into a public display. It is what I would classify as a "loaded" question. But it gives a very potent clue into your point of view.

You liken the memorials to litter and trash. I find a point of difference with you over that. Litter is not just ugly. It is careless, thoughtless and self-indulgant. A roadside memorial is the antithesis of carelessness. It is a manifestation of great caring and thought.

But is it self-indulgant? I would argue that it may be, but not in the negative sense that the term usually implies.

Grief, as you most likely know from first hand experience, is not an easily contained or a moderate emotion. Grief, in my experience, seeks solace in expression. It is sometimes eruptive. It comes out whether you will or not. It cannot be denied or shunted aside. You can't always choose whether or not you will "parade" it in public, unless you simply choose to live in a closet.

It is my belief that, in the conflict between a mourning person's need for expression and sharing and society's desire to preserve decorum, it is the mourning person's need that amounts to the higher good. In this case, our social instinct to shun people who can't control their emotions should give way to compassion. Grief trumps decorum.

Some of your other objections sound to my ear simply like a middle-class person's training to shudder at "tasteless" decoration and showiness. Perhaps, the less said in that regard, the better.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 08, 2000.

Gilda:

Your opinions are amazing. Why? Because I agree with much of what you say? No. I have a rough idea where you live [that is not giving away too much; it is like saying I know someone lives in Puget Sound]. I dont live that far away. It is, that just 20 y ago, you would have been an oddity in your own community. Well, things have really changed. The social changes we have seen in the last half of this decade are amazing. Keep it up. By the way, we got snow last night. Go figure.

Best wishes,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 08, 2000.

Brian, I didn't mean to come across as some kind of high falutin' arbiter of good taste. But no matter how tastefully they are done, (and they aren't) they end up becoming trash. To me there is nothing on this earth as lovely as natural beauty. That's one reason I enjoy driving through Alabama (I think that's the right state), for they don't allow those god-awful billboards everywhere.

I guess I've seen so many people shed crocodile tears, that I am not moved by overt displays of sorrow in public. Remember all those nice people bawling for that Smith woman who shed croc tears over her little dead boys. And Cher bawling over Sonny, come on. And I was really touched recently by the tears of the family members who got the milions in the tobacco settlement.

I had an aunt that made such a fool of herself at my Grandmother's funeral, that I'm still mortified when I think of it. My mother finally jerked her out of the building, and said later, "If you or any of the family act like that over me, I'll come back and haunt you."

And just because someone else is grieving, does that mean the rest of us must put up with their roadside memorials? Isn't the cemetary or urn enough? And what about my question concerning those that can't put this tacky shit all over the place; no one said a word about that. Doesn't a cancer ward death deserve the same tacky memorials if that person wants them. But where should they go?

My thoughts are more like the following I read somewhere: Do not stand at my grave and weep, I am not there I do not sleep; do not buy flowers that will not keep. I am a thousand winds that blow; I am the glints upon the snow. I am the sunlight on ripened grain; I am the gentle autumn's rain. (There's more, but you get the idea.)

Well Hawk, move over and LL, I've now become the resident bitch because I don't like tacky shit, and think grieving is a long hard row to hoe but doesn't have to turn into an estravaganza.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 08, 2000.

Gilda, interesting controversy, once again. Keep it up ;-)

My views on this is that the memorials don't hurt that much the environment (the flowers decompose), what I object to is the plastic flowers and ribbons etc. But is it worth getting into a tiff over this compared to the potential benefits such memorials could have on people? I don't believe so. Some of the trash gets picked up anyway in most instances. And forget the eye sore, there's a lot worse to worry about than that! Priorities, people! The benefits though, could be potentially huge. For example, last year a 21 year old kid of my neighbor was killed at 11 pm on a saturday night, crossing a 25 mph street on his bike on his way home, by a young speeding driver. I didn't know the neighbor personally, he lived a few streets away from me, but man did the resulting memorial burn something in my brain and heart! I had a tendency to go over 25 mph on that trafficy street I use everyday. I started to force myself to stay at 25 or under no matter how much in a hurry I was. The resulting practice in patience made it for me now that I observe speed limit everywhere and I don't feel frustrated anymore!

I'm only an example, but others have already mentioned other positive consequences of this practice. It makes someone stop and think.

P.S. My sons and I went to add our fresh flowers to the memorial during the week after the incident. Made us feel good that we were making the parents good!

-- Chris (!@#$@pond.com), April 08, 2000.

I mean "Made us feel good that we were helping the parents feel better."

I need to pay attention to my thinking and typing speed limit also ;-)

-- Chris (!@#$@pond.com), April 08, 2000.

I don't mind the memorials as long as they are made out of degradeable material and not a road hazard. Where I come from, it usually a wooden cross with real flowers. I would like to share a story about a intersection not far from my house. It was a very dangerous intersection, about two people died there every year. The highway dept decided to improve the roadway to elimited this problem. They made the road wider and tried to improved visibilty but did not make it a four way stop. After the improvments, seven people died there in 5 months. Every corner of that intersection now has an memorial. Now, if I were a highway designer and were out surveying the situation, those memorials would had made a little difference. We now have a four way stop and no one has died.

-- Bill (sticky@2side.tape), April 08, 2000.

Gilda:

I felt I addressed the deaths of those at other locations in my comment about how the plan should include the safety of the living. Bridges have a certain unsafe side to them to begin with. I certainly wouldn't want to take my eyes off the road on a bridge in the same way I might take my eyes off the road in Iowa, where a memorial could provide a much-needed respite from the hypnotic effects of all that corn in rows.

Hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, etc. are ASSOCIATED with illness, death, and dying. My mom is fond of mentioning deaths that occur at her facility. Sometimes she blames it on the food and sometimes she blames it on the air. She doesn't want to admit that it COULD be because everyone in her facility is upwards of 80 and had SOMETHING wrong with them that necessitated the move to a facility where constant care is AVAILABLE. Of course we could treat all deaths equally and fill hospitals, hospices, nursing homes, etc. with memorials to all those who died there, but folks are already afraid to go to these places for fear of death unfolding without advertising how many died before them.

So far, it seems that you're the only one sniveling, whining, and slinging snot [graphics courtesy of some of your previous posts, for which I've gotta love ya] about a few random roadside memorials. They may detract from the beauty of the landscape and they may provide a welcome distraction from the landscape. Some folks feel they provide a warning that a place is dangerous and take extra precautions when approaching. It sounds to ME as though the safety of the living is being encouraged by some of these.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 08, 2000.

My previous post on the death of George Straits daughter was done from memory and it prompted me to call an old friend back in San Marcos. In addition to talking about old times I asked her if the roadside memorial was still being maintained and she said yes it was, 14 years after the accident. The girls name was Jenifer Strait and she was only 13 when she died in 1986. For any of you folks in that area you can see this site on Hunter Road near McCarty Lane, on the way to New Braunfels.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), April 08, 2000.

Ra, that is so wonderful. I think all of you should get together and travel from place to place visiting these beautiful works of art, that teach us to drive safely, and promotes the tradition of mourning and praying for every known and unknown person that dies on the streets and highways.

Wait up Lady Logic, if I stay here any longer I'll soon begin to feel I have to get down on my knees and beg for forgiveness from all these compassionate, caring, socially correct people who have tried to straighten out this dense, old, snot slining, whining, sacrilegious, irreverent, disrespectful, old bag who doesn't believe in tacky, most always plastic, (unless you are rich) roadside shrines. My Gawwwwd, how could I have been so low? How utterly secular!!

Even worse, I might be so overcome with repentence and remorse for my boorishness, and lack of empathy, that I would throw off my "middle class training" and no longer "shudder at 'tasteless' decorations and showiness." I might even start collecting Precious Moments and Beanie Babies!! HUBCAPS too!!!

Apparently I didn't even know how to grieve properly, for shit's sake! I did most all of it in private--and that won't do. That isn't even grieving--it's obviously self-indulgent to deny the public the benefit of your grieving. This is the U. S. where grieving, sexual dysfunction, relgion, giving birth, maxi-pads, intimate details of your sex life and all deep feelings *must* be on public dispIay, or they aren't valid; hell they probably aren't even real!! If no one see it, how can it be real. If you can do it on TV or the Internet, that's even better. How shitty of me to not realize that grief triumphs over decorum. But that was probably because I was living in a closet you see.

It gets worse; in some kind of a snot-slinging, sniveling, outburst of pent of feelings over my attempts to hold back my great true love, my utter adoration, for road shrines, I may tear my hair, rend my clothing, and in utter defiance of Highway laws, and the local police, I will climb to the very tip-top of the bridge and hang bridge-top shrines to my late husband and the daughter of my friend. I'll hang all my former husbands sports gear and the daughters riding gear.

And I'll hang a warning sign at the hospital where my husband's wife died, saying: WARNING--You Might Die Here, and if you do, You Won't Get a SHRINE! Get yourself to the highway quick!!

So what if traffic is on the bridge is already at a snail's pace. Priorities people!!! You have to slow down more and think. Just across the bridge, there's another one with the plastic flowers falling off, and you must notice it too, that is if you're still alive after looking up at mine on the bridge. You must honor this shrine, and say a prayer, and touch your forelock , but for poop's sake, don't ASSOCIATE highways with death or people won't place shrines there anymore!!

Just a few miles more on a straight, flat stretch, is another one, (not melting down yet.) Don't miss one for after all this is great for relieving monotony. Never mind our beautiful scenery, that will on detract you from the shrines.

Good grief, you people are so intense, that I got a subliminal message through my computer to build a shrine to all the departed who've been killed on highways. I was to build it out of litter and old departed road shrines, 50 stoies high and 50 acres wide. It would be on TV and everyone could worship at it. But, luckily a deprogrammer got hold of me and I'm all better now.

Enjoy your touching road shrines and your total and complete, utter superiority.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 09, 2000.

Gilda:

You're beautiful. Lol.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 09, 2000.

LOL! The sarcasm is still dripping off my screen.

Will take you a while to digest, but you're doing fine in the self-evaluation department.

-- Chris (!@#$@pond.com), April 09, 2000.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHA

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAH Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ha haha ha haha

ha ha ha

ha ha

ha

Ok, Ok. Everyone back to their corners now, please.

Gilda, that was a GREAT post and it's the ONLY one I would have come back for today. (I need to revise my week's absence statement. If someone dies or something, I have to come back and post.)

I absolutely agree with everything you've been saying gilda, however, my experiences right before, and after Y2k, has given me a different perspective about people in general, and certainly about myself. I have to agree with Brian and Ra's opinion on this one too. It seems to me everything in life is a balancing act,...everything has sort of a duality. How do we balance hard-core reality with people's emotions? Hell, I don't know. Last year I would have said, "Get the damn things off the roads!" This year I think, "So what. Not too many people put them up, and if too many do, many we should put a time limit, a size limit, and a limit on location; because in the grand scheme of things, they're not earth-shattering. Personally, I'd rather talk about computers, beauty or cooking, because it's subjects like what you're discussing now, along with sex, religion, and politics, that seem to get me nowhere. I agree with segments of what most people say on those topics! Sheesh, I've been a nontheist all my life, and now I think there's something outside myself. Don't ever ask me for my opinions on any heavy subjects. If something can't be proven empirically, I don't want to discuss it much. Sorry I couldn't have been more help, darlin'.

Gotta jet, gilda. I'm learning all kinds of neat things about this computer.

(BTW, Anita. I know this will make you crazy, but I'm gonna tell you anyway. Zeroforce is going to be in town in two weeks, to check out ASU, and I invited him to stay with me while he's here. I know my relationship with him used to bother you, but I hope by now you realize he's only 17, and I am a responsible adult. Also, I've been wanting to wish you well with your job- hunting. Good luck!)

~*~

-- (Ladylogic@...), April 09, 2000.

If y'all keep disagreeing with Gilda, we may get to see posts from Gilda's Housesitter, Gilda's Housesitter's Little Sister, and various other Friends of Gilda. Keep it up...this could get FUN!

-- (to tell@the.truth), April 09, 2000.

Hi LL, jetting about, and having a 17 year old houseguest named Zeroforce, sounds very exciting. One question, how did your "experiences right before, and after Y2K," give you a different perspective about people in general, and about yourself? Just curious.

to tell@the truth, I am sorry to say that House Sitter and her family moved last winter. They will be here in July for four days and I'm really looking forward to it. They have finally bought a computer, but are not on the Internet, but neither is my son, so I have to write all of them snail mail.

None of my friends post on this forum, although my friend Jean uses my computer when she visits, but she's an ebay junkie and spends most of her time there or playing hearts.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 09, 2000.

It seems to me that if we have roadside memorials, then memorial should either be allowed everywhere or nowhere.

Gilda, I presume that you do not mean to imply that having roadside memorials implies that they should be allowed in the middle of a traffic lane or other places where they would pose a hazard.

But if we discourage memorials where safety might be compromised, why should we not encourage them where safety might be enhanced. For some drivers, a well placed memorial is a stronger influence than a speed limit sign.

I'm not saying that a memorial should be put wherever it enhances safety. I am saying that deciding whether a memorial should be permitted in a particular place requires weighing the pros and cons of that specific situation.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), April 09, 2000.

My personal opinion would be to allow a natural, biodegradable memorable on a publicly owned roadside.

That fits nicely with my idea of propping the corpse up where it was killed, as a reminder to check your speedometer.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 09, 2000.

tAPe yOUr bAStaRDlY fInGErS TOgEThER wItH DuCT TApE!!!! yOU dEhYDraTEd bEEr bReATH!!!!! JaCKaL dUnG BraIN!!!!! i HaTE YoU!!!!

gOoD MoRnINg!!!!

-- dIEteR (pod@pond.com), April 09, 2000.

Welcome back Dieter, if it truly is U! Some of us have missed you and your idiosyncrasies...

-- Aunt Bee (SheriffAndy@Mayberry.com), April 10, 2000.

Trust me, it ain't him.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 10, 2000.

Gilda, you said,

"And what about my father who died in the hospital of a heart attack. Shouldn't we be allowed to put a cross and flowers and rocks on the hospital lawn, or in the hall. "

Not that this is related to the thread in any way, BUT hospitals have always been one of the reasons I don't believe there are ghosts floating around in any tangible way. People die in hospitals EVERY DAY, and if there WERE ghosts, they'd be tripping over each other in there.

I guess the ghosts all hanging with the "Group Consciousness". :-)

Well, I'm feeling obligated to say something related to the thread, so here it goes: A roadsign cross or other small memorial is NOT very damaging to the environment. After all, they are placed on the ROADSIDE which usually has nothing growing on it anyway. Even if someone did tear up some grass to plant it there, how much does the wooden stake take 1/2"x3 1/2"? Not much.

I'd bet you could take near all the roadside memorials in your state and their cumulative effect on the environment would be less than that done by the pavement on one "movin-on-up" yuppies driveway.

Leave them be. They make some people feel better, make some slow down, give some teenagers something to deface while drunk, and upset very few people.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 10, 2000.

I said,

"on one "movin-on-up" yuppies driveway. "

Sorry, make that "yuppy's.

Feeling pedantic this morning,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 10, 2000.

Z1X, I'm still something of an oddity in my own community, but that bothers me not one damn bit. Of course, anyone living here that prepared for Y2K is considered an oddity, so now I have company.

lost4answers, good point.Two of the memorials I mentioned are on a flat, wide highway, with flat, well packed shoulders, and straight as a string. Probably a lot of the deaths are due to alcohol or drugs or just falling to sleep, especially when no other car is involved. Who knows? If that is the case, the least they could do would be post a sign that says, "Beware of Demon Alcohol," or "Don't Sniff, Snort nor Puff the Stuff If Your Gonna' Drive," or "Sleepyhead Go To Bed, Don't End Up Dead," and feature a big yawning clock.

Uncle, now that's the kind of biodegradable memorial that would really work, save funeral fees, and go back into the enviornment.

That ain't Dieter.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 10, 2000.

Yup, that ain't Dieter. Unk must have hurt a buddy's feelin's or somethin'.

Gilda, move to Quibec! They have just such signs on the highway, although a little bit more um...tactful I'd say. One has a drawing of an 18 wheeler and the caption is "Thinking is brilliant!"

-- Chris (!@#$@pond.com), April 10, 2000.

Well, somebody stop me! I agree with gilda. Does anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

There are at least three of these "memorials" along a three-mile stretch of the road on which I live. At other nearby locations, I've seen groupings of two and three crosses. Frankly, I still don't understand the motivation for them. Isn't the cemetary the venue and a tombstone the appropriate memorial? Are we looking at another reaction against Christian tradition?

Perhaps they do serve to slow down the speeders. That in itself makes them beneficial. Personally, the speed limit sign suffices for me.

Elbow

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 10, 2000.

Will wonders never cease? In this thread we have Lady Logic agreeing with Ra and myself, while L Bo Grise agrees with gilda!

Must be time to discuss country music and see what strange birds fall out of the tree!

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), April 11, 2000.

Here's my contribution, Brian:

The worst country and western songs ever recorded:

1. Get Your Biscuits In The Oven And Your Buns In Bed

2. Get Your Tongue Otta My Mouth 'Cause I'm Kissing You Goodbye

3. Her Teeth Was Stained, But Her Heart Was Pure

4. How Can I Miss You If You Won't Go Away?

5. I Can't Get Over You, So Why Don't You Get Under Me

6. I Don't Know Whether To Kill Myself Or Go Bowling

7. I Got In At 2 With a 10, And Woke Up At 10 With a 2.

8. I Hate Every Bone In Your Body Except For Mine

9. I Just Bought A Car From A Guy That Stole My Girl, But The Car Don't Run, So I figure We Got An Even Deal

10. I Keep Forgettin' I Forgot About You

11. I Liked You Better Before I Knew You So Well

12. I Still Miss You Baby, But My Aim's Gettin' Better

13. I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dog Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win

14. I'll Marry You Tomorrow But Let's Honeymoon Tonight

15. I'm So miserable Without You, It's Like Having You Here

16. I've Got Tears in My Ears From Lying On My Back While I Cry Over you

17. If I Can't Be Number One In Your Life, Then Number Two On You

18. If I Had Shot You When I Wanted To, I'd Be Out By Now

19. Mama Get A Hammer (There's A Fly On Papa's Head)

20. My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink, And I Love Rovers

21. My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend, and I Sure Do Miss Him

22. Please Bypass this Heart

23. She Got The Ring and I Got The Finger

24. You're the Reason Our Kids Are So Ugly

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 11, 2000.

Im taking the easy way out and basically agreeing with everyone on this thread. Like historical markers, roadside memorials are showing the exact location of an event. For those who have lost a loved one there is a spiritual connection to that spot where a loved one left this earth. When a celebrity is involved it affects even a larger group. An example would be the marker near Bakersfield, CA where James Dean died in an automobile accident 4 decades ago. For many, this exact spot has much more significance than a burial plot in a cemetery.

Having said that I will also agree that these markers should be allowed for a reasonable period of time and then removed, unless arrangements have been formally initiated. I travel quite a bit and have not seen too many of these memorials. 4 years ago a young man was killed on our street when he lost control of his VW bug and hit a large oak tree. This fellow had lived on our street for all of his 19 years and the whole neighborhood felt as if we had lost one of our own. Candlelight vigils were held at the tree for 4 days leading up to the funeral and flowers and notes were left at the tree for 2-3 weeks after that. A bunch of us took up a collection and had a very nice brass plaque made to celebrate this boys life and remind us all how fragile is our existence. We mounted this plaque on the base of the tree where it is kept polished and has become a bonding agent for the whole neighborhood.

You know, that old tree hardly had a scratch from the little car hitting it but for weeks I pondered having it removed from where it still sits today on the front of my property. I know this will sound crazy but that young man is still with all of us as a living tree and that has become a very important part of our lives.

-- Sifting (through@the.rubble), April 11, 2000.

HElp me!!

Bring smelling salts, a cloth dipped in cool water, some wine, a fan; on second thought, just bring the wine. I'm overcome with astonishment. LBO Grise has agreed with me!! I think this requires a brass plaque mounted on my computer.

BTW, it never even occurred to me that it might be a reaction either for, or against the Christian religion.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 11, 2000.

Very good point on the religious angle Gilda. Why would that be thrown into the mix?

-- Sifting (through@the.rubble), April 11, 2000.

gilda: yeah, it's hard to believe. The "reaction" comment was intended to elicit some opinions, Sifting. gilda did not really offered one, so I'm not sure what you thought her point was. OTOH, here are a couple quotations which seem to illustrate my point:

>>For those who have lost a loved one there is a spiritual connection to that spot where a loved one left this earth.<<

>>I know this will sound crazy but that young man is still with all of us as a living tree...<<

Recognize them? Sifting, if you are unaware of it, these are non- Christian concepts. I'm not trying to imply anything, just noting the fact. Perhaps the second quotation was meant to be metaphorical?

A brass plaque fastened to the tree sounds like a much classier memorial than the white stick crosses, which quickly become tawdry even if they don't start out that way.

Elbow

-- LBO Grise (LBO Grise@aol.com), April 11, 2000.

Elbow, I think Frank/Someone, said that people die in hospitals everyday and if there were ghosts, they'd be tripping all over each other. As you know, I'm not a Christian, but I don't believe that spirits hang around where they died.

I really hadn't thought about the religious angle. I'm simply tired of more and more stuff strung along side the road; cemetaries are the place for memorials. But if it makes someone feel better to think spirits hang around that's OK with me. Who knows, they might be right. At least it's not more clutter blowing down the road.

Frankly, I think planting a tree is a nice personal memorial to a person, but of course, on your own property.

Brian, I'm amazed at how many bizarre country western songs there are. I'd only heard of one of them.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 11, 2000.

Elbow

I was commenting on the following statement by Gilda that referred to your post:

BTW, it never even occurred to me that it might be a reaction either for, or against the Christian religion.

The religious aspect, Christian or otherwise, had not occurred to me as well and that prompted my comment. Worth thinking about however. As you might have guessed I am not at the top of the Good Christian rating charts. I am active in a small local congregation and I would hope that my life would stand on its own merits.

-- Sifting (through@the.rubble), April 11, 2000.