This should make you feel a warm and fuzzy that so many members of our government and the media would like for us to follow Australia's example and do an outright ban of most types of firearms. After all what honest citizen needs a firearm?

Subject: Gun control alert

Orange County Register

Letters to the Editor Section

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 million dollars. And now the results are in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent). In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent.

Figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (but increased drastically in the past 12 months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been served after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns."

Bet you won't see this data on the evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.

It's time to state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding citizens.

Take note, Californians and other Americans, before it's too late

-- ... (...@...com), April 07, 2000

Answers

Dear Americans,

You are testing my resolve to ignore blatant claptrap and ill- informed baloney of the excessive whinger and nincompoop mascarading as concerned gun-owners and every sundry drivelling Yankee buffoons, of which there aren't that many, thankfully.

However this post once again points to certain blurred dunces, so let's begin:

The Port Arthur massacre of innocent people was 28 April 1996. Yes dear daft dudes, 1996!!! The gun buy-back was in late 1996. Yes dearest dafter dudes, that's 1996!!!

Since that time we have had none of these ballooning statistics as quoted in the above glib rubbish. Indeed we are armed quite well and have a healthy distain for authority, bureacrats and genetically modified politicians. Watch the next elections.

Meantime after watching the advertisements of the Yankee Heston I am more than convinced never ever to be a part of such a movement. They never checked the FACTS with me. If they had asked I would have told them the truth. The truth is much too interesting though for those who have something to sell. They're not selling democracy!

If you Yanks swallow the stuff in this post you are brain damaged. Look to your own country. It's not a shining example of freedom at all. As a matter of fact you appear to be paranoid victims of media balderdash. You Yanks are prisoners of a police state, whereas I live in rural country and don't even bother to lock my car and home. Any rights you Yanks have had are gone long ago. Your ideas of freedom is just so much ephemeral illusion and fabrication of the film industry.

Regards from OZ

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), April 07, 2000.

Well, thank you for your one person opinion, Pieter.

Care to enlighten us with the real statistics? With a link, possibly?

-- Would appreciate (supporting@documentation.thankyou), April 07, 2000.

Pieter,

I think you hit the nail on the head.

American mass media is anything but free. Political elections are a joke. "Surcharge" and "additional charges may apply" are the realities of this "free society" we live in. Invar may be reviled by many regarding his views on Y2K and family survival, but I think he too has hit upon some of the more hidden wounds of the "alleged" Great Society of modern American existence.

The ones that crack me up are the ones that think life now is better than other times in history. I would like to point out I believe life was better in the 80's than the 90's (or 2000 so far). Ken Decker and I related stories and generalizations on this topic some months back, and I think we will agree to disagree.

Regarding the original post, it is only a matter of time before the mass media convinces the sheeple that guns are inherently evil. There will be a great battle though. To give you an example of the scale of this endeavor; If you took all the firearms in America, and placed them all in one place, they would FILL a football stadium. Talk about a daunting task...

If gun confiscation or mandatory buyback were to be enacted in America, I could see Civil War II in the not so distant future. This is strictly MO though.

"Gun control is the ability to hit your designated target, repeatedly..." - Canine Chronicle

watchin' the boy eat...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), April 07, 2000.

Pieter,

Myself and probably many others would really like to know the truth about crime statistics Down Under, both before and after the gun confiscation. Undocumentable numbers just cause confusion, although that doesn't seem to bother the Clinton Administration or the American news establishment.

If you can come with any documented statistics and/or links to same, it would really be appreciated. Even pointing us to some places to look would be helpful.

Thanks...

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 07, 2000.

It seems the above poster got his information
from this site.

GUNSSAVELIFE.COM

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), April 07, 2000.

And there's this from the Sidney Morning Herald

Gun crime soars in run up to new laws

SMH

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), April 07, 2000.

Early Saturday Morning 8th April,

Firstly I'm a bit annoyed with myself for blowing up last night. Quite unusual actually and not that articulate. Sorry chaps-n- chappettes.

The attack on 'legitimate' ownership of guns is reaching a level of ruthless dishonesty beyond precedent. Both sides of the debate are guilty of seeking out socalled facts and twisting them to suit. Some were found in Adelaide and aired by your riflemen in Yankee commercials, much to our consternation due to their false inferences regarding this issue.

Now the picture of a cowering Australia is sedulously thrust before the American public as if by some magical revelation that since the gun buy-back our entire nation has plunged into anarchic darkness.

The truth is that we have guns and the ownership thereof in a well- regulated way. We certainly don't cower in bunkers or are fearful of our government, who are indeed actively pumping money into the armed forces. Some debate about conscription is entertained behind closed doors, an unheard of phenomenon that is real among consenting social engineers in privacy.

The trouble with this debate is that it isn't about guns per se. It not a singular issue, but it embraces those many that constitute our society joys and sorrows.

For example, we have a recently highlighted phenomenon called 'home invasion' where older people in urban cosmopolitan areas are preyed on. Robbery to sustain a drug habit is generally the reason given for it. Most of us think that the real cause for it is distruction of social value systems of family and respect. The American Curriculum education system in no small meassure has contributed to our illiteracy. Media claptrap tops up the junk food.

More guns would not make for a more clever respectful society, although I have listened to contrary views in public debate.

But the message in Australia for politicians and the general public should be clear. If through electoral calculation and ignorance this campaign of bullying and intolerance is ever translated into further laws to restrict guns and ownership, then the principles upon which democracy rests will be seriously weakened. Then it will not be the supposed appeasement of public opinion which is the likely result, but the gradual crumbling of the authority of Parliament itself.

I suggest to you Americans that I live in a country training itself in vigorously leading the politicians and their bureaucracy, a resolve hardened and tempered by Port Arthur.

As for the statistics? I'll rummage through the collection to collate a cogent article to post soon and sustain a healthy debate. Don't place too much credence on media reports from Down Under showing twisted interpretations. Our media gets it cue from your mob where it got nothing to do with actual truth but is just headline sensationalism.

Regards from OZ. Pouring concrete today...:)

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), April 07, 2000.

Mates,

It's important to know that gunnery in Australia is very different than here in the states. First, the British tradition is to rifle the gun barrels as a left hand helix. No one knows why, but no one knows why they drive on the left side of the road either.

Second, in the Southern hemisphere, the coriolis acceleration is opposite to that in the northern hemisphere.

Taken together, this causes spinning bullets in Australia to move down and to the left as compared to American ballistics.

Keep this in mind when stalking the wombat.

-- (g'day@CrocodileDundee's.billabong), April 07, 2000.

Pieter,

Thanks for the update, and would really appreciate any statistics and your take as to their validity. My interest is in discerning and disseminating the truth, as difficult as that sometimes is.

I live in a combination rural/metro area in a state where every law-abiding citizen is allowed not only to own and carry a gun, but also to apply for a permit to carry concealed weapons as he/she deems necessary. Our crime rate here is INFINTESIMAL when compared to California which keeps passing more and more draconian laws every year to disarm it's law-abiding citizens. The criminals don't give a hoot about the law.

I'm still trying to aid my friends in California in their battle with a Collectivist, Confiscatory, Fascist state government trying to pass itself off as liberal and progressive. It's an uphill battle, and what's frightening is that California is so often a trendsetter for the rest of the nation. How fitting that they have the super-hypocrite Diane Feinstein who used to carry a snub-nosed .38 special in her purse when the rest of us had to go unarmed, often into areas that were dangerous at night and some even in the daytime.

My ex-wife was mugged in broad daylight on a San Francisco Muni Bus. She is petite and was punched in the face by a large teenager when she held on to her purse. Of course, everyone else did nothing, knowing that the Punk was probably armed and no one else was. The police came about half an hour later and took a report. They never found her purse or wallet. The paramedics took her to the hospital, but fortunately she wasn't seriously hurg. But she suffered some psychic scars, bigtime! Around here, that Punk would have had the SH$T stomped out of him, and if he pulled a weapon, he would have been shot on the spot. Needless to say, it doesn't happen around here!

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 07, 2000.

Another article on the effects of the OZ gun buyback - Queensland Sunday Mail: Buyback blamed for illegal trade

By CHRIS GRIFITH 24jan99

THE $500 million national gun buy-back scheme has failed, Queensland's foremost police weapons expert says.

Inspector John McCoomb says gun laws introduced after the 1996 Port Arthur massacre have sent the trade underground.

"Once they're on the black market, they're there for anyone to buy," he said.

He said that "with the right contacts", it was still possible to buy semi-automatic weapons like the Armalite (AR-10) rifle Martin Bryant used in the massacre. Inspector McCoomb, who heads the Weapons Licensing Branch, said Australians had handed in only a fraction of the weapons in the community.

So far, just over 643,000 guns had been surrendered nationally, about 131,000 of them in Queensland. It was impossible to calculate the number of guns in Australia but 643,000 was a fraction of just two brands of now-illegal guns in the country. "About 800,000 (semi-automatic and automatic) SKK and SKS weapons came in from China back in the 1980s as part of a trade deal between the Australian and Chinese governments," Insp McCoomb said. "And it was estimated that there were 1.2million semi- automatic Ruger 1022s in the country.

"That's about 2million firearms of just two types in the country."

Insp McCoomb said police realised there were abundant illegal firearms for people to commit public atrocities.

On November 1 last year, gang members fired a hail of bullets at a Sydney police station using high-powered 9mm automatics or semi-automatics. Five police were inside. This barrage of shots in a city street was exactly the sort of scenario the buy-back was supposed to stop...

Ah, unintended consequences. Such unpleasant surprises...

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), April 07, 2000.

Since we're discussing the differences between "down under" and "up over", is it true that the water swirls in the opposite direction when you flush your toilets "down under" versus when I flush mine "up over"?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 07, 2000.

Anita, Yes, and we do things cyclonic, whereas you have hurricanes.

DeeEmBee, I confirm this Queensland report. I know of caches that would do East Timor proud. Australians are primed, no doubt about it. The quantities mentioned within our gun lobby vary a lot though. Before the buy-back we reckoned conservatively at 7.5 million rapid fire rifles of various modern make. Less than 10% of weapons declared illegal were in fact surrendered and the funds used to purchase another. No record ever existed of the rest, but they do exist ready for a jaunt.

Our politicians run away now if guns are mentioned. It's sunk in that votes are lost if the dreaded word is mouthed in public. Neither is it tenable for anyone to carry weapons here. We're a gun culture with the guns unseen. That's why the gun buy-back flopped. You'd be surprised who packs a pistol in this joint. Our Olympic shooters are ready and looking good. We have regular TV reports on their prowess.

Regards from OZ

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), April 08, 2000.

Flash, sorry about your lady's misadventure, I'm sure it was sadly traumatic and wish her well. Meanwhile I'm doing the rounds and hope to post an update re this issue soon... I'm surprised this issue gets so distorted though and it might be good to hang out some dirty linen for an airing.

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), April 08, 2000.

This thread's title says the gun buyback in Australia was a fiasco. I believe it was a failure and the payback will be visited on those in power over time. The buyback initiatives flopped due to sentiments in the community being at variance with TPTB. Thus the issue was not about guns per se, it embraces many others too. What are those issues?

Early last week my nearby neighbour up the lane committed suicide. He was 45 years of age with two small children. It shattered our closely- knit community. Comments range from how selfish to a helpless shrug. He had been unemployed and his wife worked. From a vibrant go-get-'em type he had become a dependant. The mortgage payments have risen four times in the last four months in OZ. His wife got another part-time job to cope.

He shot himself dead.

This thread's question continues to state that since the gun buyback Australian crime figures have increased. So has our population, the consumption of Coca Cola, Kentucky Fried Chicken and petrol sniffing in Arnhem Land. We also watch more American soapies, read more American glossies and the news media is foreign owned by Americans mostly, and all sell an expectation beyond our needs. We are indeed the dumping ground of multi-national consumerism gunk-n-junk. Our hot chips are served in a red-n-white striped bucket from a red-n-white striped hen house. Americans wrap their junk-foodstuffs in their national flag seemingly.

It's a long bow to draw to place blame on our societal ills squarely at the gun buyback fiasco. My neighbour was determined to be dead then and there. He shot himself twice from accounts I've heard, and if a gun had not been available he would have stepped into eternity or found another method. We've fished a few from our local river, weighed down.

So what is going on? You cannot blame guns, or a length of rope, or the lump of rock.

Australia in the late 1990s and of today is the product of the 1940s and 1950s baby boomers that made an entirely different generation now. With the introduction of TV in 1956, the release of the Pill in 1960, the absorption of millions of mothers into the workforce, the Vietnam crisis that challenged our Christian faith and Parliament, the accompanying legal system changes to our Family Laws, etc. cultivated the problems of today. Our social contract with ourselves have been so radically changed over 30 to 40 years that constant difficulty brings the sorrows of this past week. Marriage is now just concubinage, Family and home sanctity is abandoned to be embraced by a cold State instrumentation, and fantasizing about wealth beams at you from a box by the wall. Rap Rationalism isn't rational at all IMO.

Powerful financial interests largely besot those people who shape today's opinion and actually establish the values of our society. They use the media.

Since we follow America in everything allow me to table this:

In 1993, Ronald Reagan's secretary of education, William J. Bennett, provided a useful 'Index of Leading Cultural Indicators for the US'.

"Since 1960, the population increased 41%; the gross domestic product nearly tripled; and the total social spending by all levels of government (1990 $US measure) rose from $US142.73 billion to $US787 billion - more than a five-fold increase.

"But, during the same 30 year period, there was a 560% increase in violent crime; more than a 400% increase in illegitimate births; a quadrupling in divorces; a tripling of the percentages of children living in single-parent homes; more than a 200% increase in the teenage suicide rate; and a drop of 75 points in the average SAT (scholastic aptitude test) scores of high school students.

"Today (1993), 30% of all births and 68% of black births are illegitimate. By the end of the decade (now), according to the most reliable projections, 40% of all American births and 80% of minority births will occur out of wedlock.

"And there are the results of an ongoing teacher survey. Over the years, teachers have been asked to identify the top problems in American schools. In 1940, teachers identified them as talking out of turn; chewing gum; making noise; running in the hall; cutting in line; dress code infractions and littering. When asked the same question in 1990,teachers identified drug use, alcohol abuse, pregnancy, suicide, rape, robbery and assault."

If you people in America wish to continue down such a road you are entitled to choose it. But do you?

As I listen to Mr Heston's rich cigar cultured voice push a view that points out shortcomings of Australia I think of the above US Leading Indicators. Then I know that whatever you Yanks think of us regarding guns your own back yards stink to high heaven and that you have made forfeit the right to judge. Yes, we have problems and ordinary people, who have since Port Arthur learned to suspect the ulterior motives of those who preach, are addressing them.

Thank you for your interest.

Regards from OZ

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), April 08, 2000.

Pieter,

It's refresing to get some "real scoop" from Down Under. I'm surprised (although maybe I shouldn't be) to hear that you all are also captives of America's thought-control machine. Unfortunately, so is most of the rest of the world, and is none the better for it.

It is refressing to hear that you many of you Aussies are distrustful of your politician's motives. We all should be!. After the gun-control/buyback, I have been picturing you all as bunch of nice but brainwashed folk that have succumed to the Clinton/Blair "Liberal Disease", i.e. soft-headed submission to totalitarian Socialism. Even more scary is all the "Globalism" stuff that is rapidly rearing it's ugly head and threatening to eclipse our national soverignty. Of course the masses of dumb American sheeple can't see the forest for the trees, being mesmerized by the pursuit of wealth and pleasure.

Glad to hear that a lot of you folks are more awake than I thought, and hopefully more so than the typical hypnotized Yank! Keep it up, and get rid of those damn politicians My motto is "if in doubt, vote them out!!!

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), April 08, 2000.

Flash:

Glad to hear that a lot of you folks are more awake than I thought

I have many friends in OZ. You shouldn't insult them; whatever the rest of your message. They will release a plague of deadly native animals and insects on you.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 08, 2000.