Here is a though provoking follow-up question for you Christians:

What is the "cut-off point" for going to Heaven or Hell?

If Hitler accepted Jesus as his savior in his final hours, did he make the cut?

What about someone who never harmed a flea and did good deeds every day, but didn't accept Jesus? Does he burn in Hell for eternity?

How about you and I? What if your faith is somewhat wavering? Where is the cut-off?

Could Heaven and Hell be just a 'state of mind' as John Donne (and now John Paul) proclaims?

Study your reaction to the responses on this thread carefully. What does it reveal about your belief system?

-- Kundalini (thoughts@cloud.com), March 27, 2000

Answers

These are questions that cannot be answered by a human being. Only a Divine Being: Angels, Jesus Christ or God the Father can answer these questions.

My advise is don't worry about it, but just do the best you can and treat other human beings the way you would want to be treated.

-- ... (...@aol.com), March 27, 2000.

...@aol.com,

What you just said is only half good enough. We should treat other human beings the way we want to be treated, but if God is all-powerful, he wouldn't make us guess at the answers to the rest of those guestions.

Why would someone who loves us, confuse us?

-- (I think @you're nice, but you might be .wrong), March 27, 2000.

Even though I'm not Christian, I'd like to interject a few thoughts on this one. You raise interesting questions, and some definitions might be in order.

You ask about the "cut-off" point for going to Heaven or Hell, but have the definitions of Heaven and Hell ever been defined? Eastern philosophies perhaps define Heaven as Nirvana. Hell would be defined as dropping to the lowest rung of the ladder on the pursuit to Nirvana with all one has done in past lives affecting the climb. In essence, if one lived a life of evil in one life, one could find the next and the next and the next similar to the experience of Sisyphus, which is NOT inconsistent with eternal damnation.

If one lived a life of good in past lives, one would move further toward Nirvana, which is NOT inconsistent with the concept of everlasting life.

Just a thought, but clarification of Heaven and Hell and the pictures of such could be illuminating. Naturally, there could be stages inbetween.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 28, 2000.

"My advise is don't worry about it, but just do the best you can and treat other human beings the way you would want to be treated."

What a concept! God himself ordered the slaughter of thousands of people, even babies. So I can't hang with the do unto other's if God has no love for human life.

As for Heaven and Hell, we are in hell if there ever was one.

-- heretic (hereticcc@hereticcc.xcom), March 28, 2000.

My mother loves me but she still confuses me :^)

This is an issue that was discussed with nuns a lot at Catholic school. If a bad person like Hitler repented on his death bed, he supposedly goes to heaven. If a good person committed on mortal sin before he died without a chance to repent, he goes to hell. The problem is that all this type of thing was made up by man, not God. The mystery of a higher power is that none of us will know the truth until such time as we can't pass it on to those who remain behind. We are trying to apply human logic to something not human.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), March 28, 2000.

Hell is not a state of mind. It is a literal place. That has always been the positon of the conservative Christian Church and positively the biblical position. As far as our faith wavering, as long as you have been "born again" you can't be lost: period! Once saved, always saved.

Hitler would be in heaven if he accepted Christ at the last moment. Heaven is open to anyone who accepts Christ no matter what he has done. There is no "cut off" point.

And yes, the person who hasn't harmed a flea and has done good deeds all his life but hasn't accepted Jesus as Savior is in hell. Period! Forthe person who gave an answer that only the divine can know this that is baloney. God gave us His Word and we can find out the mind of God and proper doctrine within its pages.

I think a number of you need to start attending a bible believing church.

-- Paul (skypilot99@aol.com), March 28, 2000.

Why is it that when a question is asked to Christians, most do not respond with scripture. After all, the Lord God Almighty said, "I exalt my Word above My Name." Jesus Himself, when tempted, said, "It is written . . ." The scripture is the key to resolving these questions.

First, all mankind (without God) is evil. this is evident from Romans 3:

"There is none righteous, no not one. There is none who understands. There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is none who does good, no not one. . ."

I could go on with many other scriptures, but you get the point. Lest anyone get the wrong idea, this passage does not mean that no one on earth never does a good "deed" or many good deeds. Merely that they do them for the wrong motives - selfish ones. Either for attention or lust or whatever. And, of course, anyone, including the worst sinner (Hitler, perhaps you might say??) loves those who love them. The scriptures call people to a much higher standard - to love those who hate you.

I am reminded of a story I once read about two young women in China who were Christians. Their pastor, who had converted them to faith in Jesus Christ, sold them out to the government. As the young women were about to be executed, the government officials commanded the pastor to pull the trigger. As the pastor is preparing to do so, the young women told him that they forgave him and that they hoped he would still be saved. This is what the Christian is called to.

According to the scriptures, if you do not love those who hate you, and are willing to forsake your family and friends for Jesus Christ, you are not following Him.

To Kundalini: Please give me an example of ANYONE who has met your requirement "Never harmed a flea and did good deeds every day, but didn't accept Jesus."

You cannot and will not find anyone. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. . ." Jesus Christ is the only one who meets your requirement. Thus, your question is ridiculous and merely argumentative - there is no such person.

Your point of making Hitler out to be the worst of sinners shows a lack of understanding of human beings and their nature. How many people do you think would do what Hitler did, or something similar, if they were placed in the position where they could. After all, all he wanted was living space for the Germans and for his people to rule the world. Hmmm . . . That pretty much describes every person on earth - wanting a larger place to live or a larger house or a nicer wife or a bigger car or a better job . . . However, most people are not in a position where they can murder even one person and get away with it.

Have you ever wanted to do something that you would call evil? Have you ever done something that was evil? What might you have done in your life if you knew you would not get caught? Maybe have an affair? Cheat your partner? Kill the person who made you angry? Steal a candy bar? Lie about your income on your tax forms? Lie about where you were last night? What if you KNEW you would not get caught? Don't most criminals think they'll never get caught? If they KNEW they would get caught, do you think they would commit the crime?

Do you think Hitler might have done some "good deeds" as well? Think he provided for his family? Perhaps gave some money to a charitable organization once? Worked with the Pope? (there was evidence of this on 60 minutes the other night). Bought gifts for his friends? Gave money to a street person once? Would it have mattered if he became a "good person" before murdering 6 million Jews? Might he have sinned before he got into power? Note that Stalin killed far more than Hitler did - 20 million + to Hitler's 6 or 7 million.

What if YOU HAD THE POWER to kill anyone or put in prison anyone who tried to catch you? This is the position Adolf Hitler was in . . . and Saddam Hussein, and Stalin, and JESUS CHRIST, according to the scriptures - he could have called down 10000 angels to protect Him - He was either the Son of God or He wasn't - granting that He was, then He had all power and authority in the universe at His disposal.

Yet, unlike all these "worst cases" of evil, Jesus Christ did not abuse His position, but came to earth as a servant. He helped people. He healed people. He died a sinless man, for YOU. Yet, you bring argument against Him.

Yes, if Hitler REPENTED OF HIS SINS and BELIEVED on Jesus Christ, then he would go to heaven. Christ's blood covers ALL sin. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9.

Take the thief on the cross. One thief is persecuting Jesus - "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us." But the other thief stands up for Jesus. "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed, justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then the thief said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into your kingdom." Jesus replies, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise."

Note: The thief confessed his sins. He was not shifting blame to someone else. He recognized that he was guilty and deserved to die. This is your problem and the problem of all sinners. You do not believe that you are evil and that you deserve to die. But, if you have EVER sinned - transgressed God's law - to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself, then you are deserving of eternal death. After all, God has made a way of escape. It is not necessary that you commit evil acts. Thru Jesus, Christ, you can be cleansed of all past sins and helped to avoid the future ones. Thus, you can be made presently blameless/pardoned. But, you refuse to believe it.

I assume you refer to our present Pope when you say "John Paul". Well, he is not of God. First, he receives worship from man. This is not acceptable in the eyes of God, according to the 10 commandments. Second, he does not act like Jesus. He has a staff of attorneys, lives in plush buildings and rides around in a bulletproof car in fear. Jesus Christ did not avoid persecution, and neither did the Apostle Paul - they went to it. According to the scriptures, Paul was killed at least once that I can remember, and God raised him from the dead. If the Pope really believed that God was taking care of him, then why is he so afraid of being shot? JFK was willing to ride around without bulletproof glass in a city where it was known that there were death threats against him. It cost him, but at least he wasn't a coward. Dumb, perhaps, but not a coward.

Further, I have not seen or heard of John Paul II doing ANY miracles. Jesus said,

"MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also, and GREATER works than these he will do . . ."

Now John Paul is supposedly the highest "Christian" figure on earth. Yet, he has not healed a person or cast out a demon or anything of the sort. According to Jesus Christ in the verse above, John Paul does not believe on Him. I could go on for awhile with scriptures and evidence that Pope John Paul is not a follower of Jesus Christ, but now is not the time or place. At any rate . . .

As to where the cut off is, the scripture is quite clear. But first, I'll start with an everyday analogy. Do father's typically disown their sons? Well no - the son has to do something EXTREME for the father to disown him.

How extreme? Well, I'm not a parent yet, but I can imagine that if my son said, "I hate you and I never want to see you again - never try to find me - I no longer want to be your son!!" I think that might do it, but even then, I suspect I would be quite sad and longing for my son to return.

THIS IS HOW GOD IS. He loves people. He SO (in this way) loved the world, that He gave His ONLY begotten Son, that whosover (Hitler included) believes in Him should not perish (eternal death) but have everlasting life.

God is not going to give His son to die so that you might live and then give up on you for doubting or sinning after you are converted. Think about this. Jesus said:

"In this manner, therefore, pray:

OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN . . ." Matt. 6:8-9

Jesus said that we can call God our Father. That when we come to Him and forsake our sins and believe on Christ for our salvation - and not our imagined goodness - then God is our Father.

What kind of Father would kick the child out of the house for disobeying once? What if the child were 12 years old? 5 years old? Three months old? Clearly, no good father would kick his child out of the house, even for multiple/repeated disobedience. If . . . If the child is sorry and willing to obey NOW.

There are BABES in Christ, just as there are babies in the flesh. Thus, there are different standards of discipline. Do you punish a three year old for having and "accident" in their pants? No, not usually. Should you punish a 15 year old for refusing to meet curfew or even call and say they are running late. Yes. There are different standards for each. None should sin, but the punishments will be according to the crime and according to the maturity of the person/Christian.

A recent convert who partied all thru their life prior to becoming a Christian is probably going to stumble over drinking or fornication. God knows that "Our flesh is weak". He pities us because of our weakness, according to Psalms.

James says, "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. FOR WE ALL STUMBLE IN MANY THINGS." James 3:1-2

Stumbling does not kill you in spirit. Sinning does not kill you in spirit. Repeated sinning moves you toward spiritual death, because it hardens your heart toward your Father - if you practice rebellion against Him, you will think He hates you more and more and you will thus run away from Him. The key is to come back and say you're sorry and that you won't do it again. Even if you do, the scripture says that "His mercy endures forever." All you have to do is come back. Unfortuantely, many don't. Most never come to Him and say they are sorry and ask to be adopted into His family. Many do come, but then allow themselves to be hardened and eventually get to the point, due to their difficult circumstances, that they say, either in their heart or with their mouth, "I hate you and I never want to see you again - never try to find me - I no longer want to be your son!!"

My ex-fiance' did this, and now, she is an atheist and is one of the most oppressed and unhappy people I know. When she sees me, the only way she can receive any happiness is to start making out with her boyfriend. She did this on the second row of the church at her sister's wedding - came down and sat as close to me as possible and started making out with the guy. Is this love on her part? Is this strength on her part? Or is she desperate to make me jealous? It is really pretty sad - it would have been enough to tempt me to sorrow/jealousy merely for her to show up with someone else - since I then had no one to bring to the wedding. But no - she had to show off for everyone - so much so that her sister, the bride, asked her to leave. Who is in the better position now - her, the athiest, or me?

Jesus said to the church of Ephesus - "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place - unless you repent."

They had a "space/time to repent" They didn't, and Ephesus was destroyed in 70AD.

Jesus said to the church at Thyatira: "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. . ."

Again, a time to repent.

All people who become Christians therefore become children of God. God says that He "will never leave you or forsake you" if you are His child. But, you can leave Him. Those Christians who stumble by committing a sin will still go to heaven. God does not forsake His children - they have a time to repent, or else they will be hardened and then destroyed in spirit. It is the repeated sin without coming back to God that leads to eternal death - this is what happened in Ephesus - they were not beyond hope and could have been spared, but they refused to return to their first love and paid the price years/decades later.

Thus, if Peter had died right as he denied Christ (note that the denial was under extreme temptation - he would have been tried and probably killed with Jesus) he would not have went to hell. He was still an immature Christian. He repented with tears and later grew spiritually to the point that he did die for Christ, and on the way dying for Christ, saved many and wrote a couple books of the Bible. There is growth in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Finally, note that Jesus referred to His own disciples as evil right after telling them the Lord's prayer - because they did not receive the Holy Spirit - the fullness of the blessing - in other words, they were not all that they could be and had not given themselves fully to God at this point.

"If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? IF YOU (DISCIPLES) THEN, BEING EVIL, KNOW HOW to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him."

Luke 11:11-13

Thus, Kundalini, your "thoughts" show that your understanding of the Christian religion is that God is a worse father to His children than just about any human father on earth. If this is the case, then I'll come party with you - however you like to party . . . :-) However, this is not the case, and you ought to at least try to overcome your ignorance of God before passing judgment on his program.

Robert Bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), March 28, 2000.

Paul you are the type Christian that sent me running from the church years ago with your dogmatic, sanctimonious, pontifical statement, "I think a number of you need to start attending a bible believing church."

Sorry Paul, you are a rank amateur compared to the saintly windbag robert bright. My Gawwwwd what a sermon. I fell asleep twice, but forced myself to read this diatribe to the end. Funny how Christians have to rant and thump the Bible to find something to say. Of course it isn't logical, but that's uniimportant.

I want to extend my sympathy to your ex-fiance', she had the great, good sense to see that you would have driven her crazy with all your sin, and guilt, and pardons, and trangressions, and blathering on and on and on. Poor woman, I don't blame her for showing up at the wedding with a normal man; two would have been better. You say now that she's an athiest she is "one of the most oppressed and unhappy people I know." Did she tel you that? Do you know that for a fact. And my you are wonderfully strong not to show any sorrow/jealousy. But if you're so saintly, how come you're wondering, "who's in the better position now." Then you tell Kundalini that if God is a worse father to his children than just aboutany human father, then you'll come party with him. It sounds to me like you're just trying to find the best deal for you holier-than-thou hide.

Oh, and I really got a kick out of your Pope bashing rant. Isn't it *nice* that Christians always try to make themselves look better by bashing other Christians, or other religions: Catholics, Eastern religions, Jehovah Witnesses, Islam, etc., are especially favorite targets. Ahh, ain't the tolerance of Christians jist so inspiring?

I think hell is just a state of mind. I'm a Scientific Pantheist so I don't have to bawl, and pray, and quote scripture, and whine, and attempt to convert and coerce others to make myself feel good. Pantheism means ALL is God. The Scientific part means that one doesn't discount Science.

Scientific Pantheists would never kill a human for proving that the earth revolves around the sun, or torture those reading banned books, or jail and burn those whom they consider heretics. It happily accepts the fact that this life is our only life and earth is our paradise. And that's fine with me. One thing for sure, I enjoy the here and now, and don't waste my time wondering if I'm "going to make the cut," or go to heaven, or live for all eternity. My heaven is under my feet, and my God is the Universe.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.

"Join a Bible believing church?" Why? They're the root of the problem in our society.

-- heretic (heretic@hereticcc.xcom), March 28, 2000.

god doesn't make us guess. he gave us the answers to most of life's questions in his word--the bible. he gave us commandments and guidance on how to be one of his children. he tells us not only how to get to heaven and what it and hell will be like (and i do believe they are literal places but yet in a dimension that you can't see if you aren't seeing it with spiritual eyes) but he tells us how to live in this life so that we can have his blessings and grow in wisdom. he also promises to give his holy spirit to his children to guide them in their daily lives and in this process of maturing into people that reflect his character. he tells us how to treat others. no guesswork here? god gave us boundaries by telling us some "no's". they are for our's and society's protection and blessing. people forget though there are very few "no's" in relation to all the "yes's" he gave us.

he doesn't, however, relinguish his right to be god and to be the ultimate judge. god has wonderful, beautiful, and merciful attributes but he also has other attributes of holiness, purity, justice, and more that can spell out trouble for us imperfect humans. that is why he gave us the mediator--christ--to do it all for us. all we have to do is believe and become one of his children.

there is so much hatred being spewed forth on this board toward christians and it is interesting how lots of "non-christians" get labelled as christians and we get blamed for their actions. yet, i heard some very interesting stories coming out of palestine this morning (plus it happens in many other places in the middle east and africa) about how the muslims are killing people who convert out of the islamic religion (e.g., beheading, rape, slavery). so how come no one is whining about that? do you honestly think any other religions are truly tolerant of other religions? come on--who is kidding whom.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 28, 2000.

heretic said:

" "Join a Bible believing church?" Why? They're the root of the problem in our society. "

Funny, every "Bible believing church" I know of teaches against the very things that *are* wrong with society today.

In Exodus 20 13-15 you will find that which EVERY 'Bible believing church' teaches.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

Care to try again?

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

Ain't Gonna Happen said:

"In Exodus 20 13-15 you will find that which EVERY 'Bible believing church' teaches.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal."

Can you name a religion that DOESN'T have these values?

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.

Huh??

What does that have to do with my reply to heritic's short sighted statement?

Lets try a little less slice and dice the Christian at any cost and focus on the topic shall we?

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

Roberta

I said:

"Funny, every "Bible believing church" I know of teaches against the very things that *are* wrong with society today. "

Maybe you overlooked (wink, wink) that KEY part of my previous statement.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

The original question was.....What is the "cut-off" point for going to Heaven or Hell?

I believe if we could poll Christians on that question the answer would be to acccept Christ with one's last dying breath. I believe that is cutting it pretty close...like timing the stock market or how long can I wait to start prepping for Y2k. When we get old and feeble we start thinking about hedging our bets and usually go for the "Pascal's Wager" premise.

Some of the greatest minds in history dared to doubt and went to their graves steadfast with their beliefs. Voltaire and Thomas Paine, just to name two. The "church" was at their death beds pressing at their last moment on earth.

I would suspect a lot of "Christians" have pantheistic feelings but have not labeled those feelings.

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), March 28, 2000.

Yes I have pantheistic feelings because I'm a Scientific Pantheist. And let me tell you that I admire Thomas Paine, Robert Ingersol, Bertrand Russell and especially Voltaire very much.

And furthermore, the older I get, the more set in my belief I am that this "savior" business is just that--big business. The churches and evangelists and electronic preachers rake in millions from the gullible.

Yes, the churches should certainly know what is wrong with society, they've done everything possible to create schisms, and exclusive groups, and hatred of other religions. Now I ask you, are the ongoing wars in Northern Ireland, the Mideast, Kosovo, Bosnia, and on and on about water, or Twinkies, or sports, or money? Hell no! The wars are about religion.

I truly believe the day will come in some distant future, when people will look back at the religion with horror, that people fell for it so long.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.

tc-

How many Christians have gone to Hell because of Pascal's Wager? Think about it; you don't believe in the Christian god, but you're afraid to not believe and you don't want to go to Hell, so you become a nominal believer, just in case. When you die, you discover that there WAS a god, but he or she is actually a Muslim, or the entire Hindu pantheon, or Astarte, or Thor, or whatever, and boy is/are he/she/it/they pissed! After all, that god(s) gave you the brains to think critically, and tickled your soul with the still, small voice of doubt, and may have even sent a few believers with the truth to your door, but you turned them away in favor of some mythical Johnny- come-lately Yahweh.

No, the true winning proposition in Pascal's Wager is to go agnostic, or atheist. Better to insult whatever diety exists by not believing than to anger them by believing in the wrong diety.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.

Roberta Ingersoll

"...or atheist."

WOW! You have more faith than I do.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

Ain't Gonna Happen:

Actually, you yourself are an atheist. You don't believe in Zeus, Shiva, and a whole host of dieties that form the basis of many religions worldwide.

XOXO

Roberta

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.

Roberta Ingersoll said:

"Actually, you yourself are an atheist. You don't believe in Zeus, Shiva, and a whole host of dieties that form the basis of many religions worldwide."

Here is the definition of an atheist right from the atheists web site: "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods".

The 'atheists' definition seems to be in conflict with *your* 'beliefs'.

As for my belief, it is in direct opposition to it.

(Grin)

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

Ain't Gonna Happen:

Strictly speaking, I'm an agnostic. It's a subtle, yet distinct difference.

You are indeed an atheist, and an infidel to boot, to people who aren't Christian. It all depends on your POV.

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.

Roberta

Here is a quote from 'The Atheism Web' FAQ

"About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God."

An Introduction to Atheism

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 28, 2000.

If He would just give me a sign...like a large deposit in my name in a swiss account. W Allen :)

It would seem that to have some doubt frightens the dikens out of most folks.

If there is a God (whatever the name) who CARES then He/She will understand my quandary and will not PUNISH me for having attempted to use reason and to understand life.

But most of all....what will the preachers do when the devil is saved? Brother Dave Gardner ;)

-- tc (tc@webtv.net), March 28, 2000.

The Introduction to Atheism link was QUITE interesting. I didn't read the whole thing, but the author said some of the VERY SAME THINGS that Flint said during the last year regarding Y2k.

Thanks, Ain't.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 28, 2000.

tt said:

"...there is so much hatred being spewed forth on this board toward christians..."

This is quite an interesting comment in light of the fact that if I do not do as you say God says I should do I will go to hell. I will be damned for all eternity for-oops-chosing the wrong God-Do you not think that believing that everyone who differs from you is going to hell is hatred?? Are you going to sell me the idea that God loves me, but hates sin? If this is true, why does he not just send this metaphysical sin to hell and leave my soul alone??

I do not hate christians, not at all. However, please do not get this persecution complex that christians are being attacked and hated by posters on this board-after all, we do not dislike the posters, we just dislike their fundamentalism(sound familiar??).

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 28, 2000.

It seems every time you disagree with a Christian, even on a forum, they yell persecution, you hate Christians, you're Christian bashing. It all depends on whose ox is gored, isn't it.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.

To: Robert Bright

Amen brother.

To: All Assuming everyone in the world is presented with a gift:

1. Does it matter when they accept the gift?

2. Does it matter if they refuse the gift?

If you accept the gift before you die it cannot be taken away.

If you refuse the gift before you die, you will never get it.

Think about it, like it or not, believe it or not, Jesus was that gift to you. You can accept it or not.

"There is no other way to the father but by me." Jesus

-- David DuPre (david@dupresystems.com), March 28, 2000.

i know i'll get flamed, but i have to add my two cents worth:

first, i agree with everything robert bright wrote, but i have to admit i hate it when the sermons go on too long. break it up a little more, next time, sir. other than that, 100% agree.

second, did anyone else notice that the idea of a standard of morality was labeled 'hate' talk? that's what the whole disagreement is about, isn't it? sure, there have been bad, even evil, professed 'Christians' all thru history, nobody disputes that. but the idea that heaven is only attainable thru one standard is abhorrent to those who desire no standards, no accountability, no responsibility. the idea is not answered with rebuttals, but with shrieks of malice.

i'm a Christian, but i'm far from perfect. the only way i can lose my salvation is thru a direct renunciation of Christ and his sacrifice. deathbed acceptances of Christ and his sacrifice can only be judged by God as to whether they were real or just hedging pascal's wager.

too many men (and women) throughout history have distorted Christ's message for personal gain and power. the bible is the standard, and the old testament's record of holy wars was forever modified with Christ's message of loving your enemy in the new testament.

holding to a moral standard is not 'hate' speech, much as the world would like to brand it.

-- not this time (not@this.time), March 28, 2000.

No one mentioned "hate speech" but you.

Straw man, anyone?

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 28, 2000.

Alright, I have a question and I've had it for a long time.

not this time said: "...and the old testament's record of holy wars was forever modified with Christ's message of loving your enemy in the new testament."

What is the story with the God of the Old Testament? He seemed downright cruel there. If Christ did modify the Old Testament with the message of love what exactly was the "message" of the Old Testament? Was/is God "changeable"? If the bible was capable of being altered once isn't it also capable of being altered again?

-- Debra (wouldlikean@answer.com), March 28, 2000.

Ya'll bible beaters are funny. Can any of you read Hebrew? Because if you can't, you do not have the whole story. Kindly leave your religion by the door when you come in my house, OK? I already have some of my own. Do not badger me with what your preacher, reverend, minister,etc... told you this week. I do not need your beliefs, as I have some of my own. Trying to convert me to your "perfect" faith will do nothing but piss me off; do not go there. If all you have to discuss is religion, then we have nothing to talk about. My personal relationship with: God, Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, Vishnu; please pick your favorite, is far beyond what an "organized" religion can offer me. My dialogue with my creator is none of your business, as your diatribe with yours is none of mine.

growlin' at the JW at the door...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), March 28, 2000.

I had a conversation with a very bitter young woman who thought all Christians were bigots and hypocrites.....well you know the story. Her particular complaint was the people can do horrible, gruesome things to others, cheat, lie and steal, murder, and on their death bed ask forgiveness of Jesus and go to heaven. "It's not fair," she kept saying, "it's just not right."

My reply: The devil thinks so too!

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 28, 2000.

Religion is like having sex with your wife. It's damn good, but you don't go around telling everybody about it.

-- (@ .), March 28, 2000.

Not @ and Robert B.,

Wonderful posts - I agree 100%. God Bless you all and bring peace to those the most in need of it, whoever, wherever they may be.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), March 28, 2000.

Roberta asked,

Ain't Gonna Happen said:

"In Exodus 20 13-15 you will find that which EVERY 'Bible believing church' teaches.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal."

Can you name a religion that DOESN'T have these values?

Yes Roberta, I can name a religion that doesn't have these values. Its called politics. ;-)

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), March 28, 2000.

Paul, I agree with Gilda about you.I think you are small potatoes in the sanctimonious asshole department, when compared to robert bright.

Robert, you are as full of shit as a christmas goose! Get real! Maybe YOU would commit all sorts of vile, evil acts if you knew you could get away with it (is that why there are so many christian types who poke the little boys behind the altar?), but YOU need to attend some organizations where people DON'T try to get away with all the evil shit you seem to crave. Believe it or not, there are actually some people out there beyond the bounds of your narrow minded life who do their best to be fair, honest and kind. And believe me, they are certainly NOT all christians.

I also hope there aren't any evil minded folks with christian leanings reading your post; they would be able to justify any horrible act they want to commit, while planning to "accept jesus" right before checking out. DUMB. VERY DUMB.Go back to the drawing board, robert.

Gilda, I like your philosophy of pantheism. It fits fairly well with mine. Mark Twain, in Letters From the Earth, wrote a pretty amusing bit about heaven. Something about how not one in ten people on earth like harp music, yet in heaven they get to sit around and play harps for ETERNITY. It's a bit more interesting than what I remember, but it's been about thirty years ago that I read it.

Anyway, I agree that heaven and hell are in our minds. I'm in heaven here. I've certainly been in hell, too, at various times, tho never to the extent that a lot of poor souls have been....

tt, my religion (Scientific Deism) tolerates other religions. But it doesn't forbid us to tease their members, when they act dogmatic and ugly. Mine also doesn't claim to be the "ONE TRUE RELIGION". I know enough to realize that there are lots of things I don't have an answer to; I don't think I have the brain capacity to truly understand where "it all" came from, for instance. I have a hard time understanding what was "here" before the Big Bang, or before "god" created the universe in six days, or what was "here" before somebody created "god". I also cannot truly understand "eternity" or "forever". They are just too damned long a period of time.

On the other hand, I can understand evolution, and I can understand geology and paleontology, and physics, and hydrology, and math. I don't understand everything about it, but enough to make informed conclusions. I think a lot of you christers don't want to have to think, and analyze, and make choices, so you just fall back on one, single "reference book", (the bible), and claim that the proof that the bible is totally without mistakes is the bible itself. And then you expect to be taken seriously!

I agree with all of those who think that the thumpers who claim that everyone who has a different interpretation of reality, (and I do mean INTERPRETION, because you only THINK you KNOW) is going to go to "hell' is being pretty damned shortsighted, one way, and judgemental. I thought your god said something about "judge not, lest ye be judged" (boy I'm glad I don't have to follow THAT rule)

Regardless, it's always fun to hear everyone's thoughts on such earth shaking matters.

Seen any good constellations lately?

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe a.k.a. Al K. Lloyd (jumpoff@ekoweb.net), March 28, 2000.

If you want nothing to do with the God of the Holy Bible he will honor your request.For eternity.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 29, 2000.

He was just a little boy, on a week's first day.

He was wandering home from Sunday School, and dawdling on the way.

He scuffed his shoes into the grass; he found a caterpillar.

He found a fluffy milkweed pod, and blew out all the "filler".

A bird's nest in a tree overhead, so wisely placed on high,

Was just another wonder that caught his eager eye.

A neighbor watched his zig zag course, and hailed him from the lawn,

Asked him where he'd been that day and what was going on.

"I've been to Bible School," he said and turned a piece of sod.

He picked up a wiggly worm replying, "I've learned a lot of God."

"M'm very fine way," the neighbor said, "for a boy to spend his time."

"If you'll tell me where God is, I'll give you a brand new dime."

Quick as a flash the answer came! Nor were his accents faint.

"I'll give you a dollar, Mister, if you can tell me where God ain't."

-Author Unknown

All my Christian friends love this poem. They don't appreciate the irony. Gilda and a few others may join me in my snicker.

-- (anthill@kicking.hah), March 29, 2000.

no, roberta, not a straw man.

futureshock wrote "do you not think that believing that everyone who differs from you is going to hell is hatred?"

this is not the first time i've seen the concept "you don't believe so you're going to hell" described as hatred. just for the record, specifying a moral absolute is not hatred, or hate speech, or anything else but just politically incorrect in today's culture.

it would be hatred if i were trying to help you on your way.

-- not this time (not@this.time), March 29, 2000.

Anthill-

Your poem reminds me of one by Robert W. Service.

"I lost my faith in Santa Claus At the age of six or seven And later at age twenty-one I lost belief in heaven And having lost God and Santa At the age of forty-four For the life of me I can't decide Which one I miss more!"

-- Roberta Ingersoll (existential@angst.moc), March 29, 2000.

tt:

I don't think anyone is bashing Christians to the exclusion of other religions. This particular thread ADDRESSED Christians, because other faiths don't have the DEAL associated with being able to do evil and then have it all forgiven in a flash. Of course not all Christians have the same SORTOF deal. SOME sectors of Christianity count on baptism to wash away the sins, SOME rely on the acceptance of Jesus as their savior to wash away the sins, and others rely on the confessional to wash away the sins.

At least in the U.S., there is ONE sector of Christianity that goes above and beyond the normal call to evangelism. This sector [of which there may be several offshoots] gets involved in everything from what toys folks should buy for their kids to which folks are the only ones worthy to enter God's Kingdom. These folks speak out LOUDLY in an attempt to convince others that they're doomed if they don't interpret the Holy Bible the way THEY interpret it.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 29, 2000.

-- (anthill@kicking.hah)

"All my Christian friends love this poem. They don't appreciate the irony. Gilda and a few others may join me in my snicker."

Where is the irony in an all knowing all seeing God who is omnipresesent?

As a Christian, I loved your poem.

Do you have more that are this nice? I would love to share them with my secular friends as a witnessing tool.

-- Ain't Gonna Happen (Not Here Not@ever.com), March 29, 2000.

JOJ:

Have you ever done anything wrong??

If so, why? Did you believe you wouldn't get caught?

Do you think Bill Clinton thought he would get caught regarding his adultery with Monica Lewinsky?

Do you think he would have done it if he KNEW he would get caught?

Do you think Clinton would do it again if given the opportunity?

Do you think he would do it if the punishment was DEATH - for him and the girl?

If you had a 20 year old daughter, would you want her to work for Clinton as an intern?

Yet, President Clinton goes around "helping" people all day long. He helps by adding new gun control laws and allowing women to kill their unborn babies and granting FBI snipers immunity when they shoot helpless women holding babies.

See this link:

http://www.ohiolife.org/qa/qaabort.htm

Clinton is considered by the majority of the American people to be a "good man" who made some "mistakes". Even Billy Graham said something to that effect.

Thus, since the American people in general call what is good, evil and what is evil, good - it does not surprise me to find that you do not understand human beings and instead choose to attack me personally for stating my "opinion". In attacking me, you have hated me and fallen short of the standard of "loving your enemies."

Of course, that's what they do to everyone who tells things like they are. The most notable example of this would be, of course, Jesus Christ.

The religious leaders and sinners of the day said He was "full of shit" and since he refused to back down from calling them evil, they killed him.

Likewise, you would have done the same thing if given the opportunity - killed Jesus Christ. After all, since I spoke the truth from the scriptures and from Jesus Christ's teaching, then you have said that He is "full of shit", too.

But, I am commanded by Jesus Christ to rejoice in your hatred.

"Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, for in like manner their fathers did to the prophets."

Luke 6:22-23

Praise the Lord God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. He will give to each person their just reward, whether that be eternal life with Him or eternal damnation in Hell.

-- Robert Bright (roosterbos@go.com), April 04, 2000.

Robert, normally I enjoy a good argument, but when I finished reading your post, I realized that you are not only full of shit, but incorrigible, so it's a waste of my time to try.

However, I can't STAND it that you accused me of saying tha jesus is full of shit. I NEVER said that. He's not full of shit; you are. He's dead.

-- jumpoff joe a.k.a. Al K. Lloyd (jumpoff@ekoweb.net), April 04, 2000.

This is my final comment unless JOJ has something "argue" that is worth looking at.

To those who flame me for being "long winded", I'll explain:

I look at some of the answers to these questions posted by Kundalini, and notice that they are short, but are actually cop-outs. For instance in the first post: "These are questions that cannot be answered by a human being. Only a Divine Being: Angels, Jesus Christ or God the Father can answer these questions."

This is wrong. It is also lazy - the scriptures answer these questions, but the poster, who apparently doesn't even have a name, has not honestly tried to find the answers.

Or the fourth post: "What a concept! God himself ordered the slaughter of thousands of people, even babies. So I can't hang with the do unto other's if God has no love for human life." - heretic

Note that "heretic" does not grant that God may have had a legitimate reason for commanding these deaths. He/she assumes that he is smarter than God. Maybe . . . And, I suppose he/she is probably pro- abortion, which would mean that he/she condones "the slaughter of thousands of people, even babies."

Or the fifth post: "This is an issue that was discussed with nuns a lot at Catholic school. If a bad person like Hitler repented on his death bed, he supposedly goes to heaven. If a good person committed on mortal sin before he died without a chance to repent, he goes to hell. The problem is that all this type of thing was made up by man, not God. The mystery of a higher power is that none of us will know the truth until such time as we can't pass it on to those who remain behind. We are trying to apply human logic to something not human." - Jim Cooke

Thus, someone who is not a Christian is trying to answer questions directed at Christians. WHY?? Further, Mr. Cooke says that this was all made up by men. Well, the scripture was written by men, but inspired by God. Even further, Christ claimed to be God incarnate in a human body. Thus, the things He said were either God saying them or they weren't. Thus, Mr. Cooke has denied the divinity of Christ.

If you don't want to read my posts, then don't read them. I'm not holding a gun to your head. I saw the initial poster, Kundalini, challenging and making fun of Christians/Christianity. He asked questions that cannot be answered in a short reply - prinicipally because he doesn't really want to know the answers. He is baiting, and I "took the bait" so to speak. If he did want to know the answers, he would study the scriptures and ask "the unknown god" to show him the truth about "the unknown god" and that God's religion rather than trying to trick us into making a mistake, like the Pharisees did to Christ. After all, all that is required for God to give wisdom is that the person come sincerely. Otherwise, no one could be saved.

Further, why do Christians seek to answer questions without using ANY scripture. God "exalts His word above His name." A Christian is NOTHING without the Word of God.

Finally, it seems that no one in this country wants to think anymore. If a post gets lengthy, people complain that it's a "sermon" or the poster is a "windbag" without considering that the question may require a lengthy answer. People want a "sound bite" rather than a complete and well-explained answer. Has anyone here ever seen Charles G. Finney's "Systematic Theology?" It was used as a college text in the late 1800's and is more difficult and deep thinking than anything used to teach law school today. Our kids today would fail college in the 1800s - I suppose I would have.

JOJ:

First, Jesus Christ and His apostles are the ones that said that ALL men are evil, not me. I am merely agreeing with them. Further, they said it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER. This is not my "drawing board", it's theirs.

Here's Christ's own words - IT IS WRITTEN:

"Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

(Note that your usage of "cursing" me condemns you as we speak.)

"What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

"This is an evil generation."

Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"

(Note that Christ held them guilty for sins they didn't actually commit - because they would have done them - and were doing them in their hearts as He spoke).

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has boundthink of itfor eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?

It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

To His Disiples:

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him."

TO YOU, JOJ:

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen . . ."

Thus, as HE is the one that says that you and everyone else, including me, are evil (without His influence) therefore, whether He was right or not, you have said that He is "full of shit".

It took me a long time to realize that Christ was right - unfortunately, it requires that a person at least come under conviction of their sin and actually believe that they are guilty of breaking a law higher than themselves for them to begin to understand it.

Second, He is most definitely NOT dead. He is risen and lives today!!

Third - if you had any understanding of Christianity whatsoever, you would understand that the mere fact that people are evil and in need of a savior does not excuse them for their sins. I could go on for pages on this one, but I suppose I'll already get flamed again for being a "windbag". I will say this: First, there are different levels of reward and punishment in heaven and hell. The scripture is clear about this. Hitler, had he repented moments before he died, would have went to heaven, but he would have gotten a very small reward. A person who is "good" on earth, but doesn't accept Christ will still go to hell, but their suffering will not be as bad as someone who rejects Christ after serving Him for 15 years and then becomes a serial killer. Thus, it is definitely better to repent "NOW". Now is the time for salvation.

Second, a person can ONLY be saved if God draws them. "There is none who seeks after God". Thus, the more a person sins and particularly, the more a person justifies themselves and all sinners, like you are doing, the harder they get. The harder they get, the less chance there is that they will be saved.

A very low percentage of conversions to Christianity that "stick" are among people older than 25 y/o. This is due to the fact that people get "set" in their ways and sins. Thus, there is very little danger of your scenario happening. People can keep "planning to "accept Jesus" right before checking out" but it doesn't happen very often, because they really believed for 30+ years that they don't need a savior, and there is very little that can/will break up this false belief held for that long.

Oh, as to my "narrow-mindedness" - I've been to college and law school. Lived in D.C. for 3 years, and been around all sorts of "helpful" people all over the country and a bit in Europe. And you are quite right - there are plenty of people "who do their best to be fair, honest and kind." And, I've been and am friends with many of them. Unfortunately for them, this is NOT good enough. If they mistreat ANYONE, in their whole life, they have sinned against God and need reconciliation. They will burn in hell without Christ.

Gilda:

You like to say that "I fell asleep twice, but forced myself to read this diatribe to the end. Funny how Christians have to rant and thump the Bible to find something to say. Of course it isn't logical, but that's uniimportant."

Interesting how easy it is to say that someone's argument is "illogical" and yet not even attempt to explain how it is illogical. Hmm . . . Don't think that one's going to hold up in a court of law. If you want to flame someone, at least base your accusations on something.

Further, you have to rant and "thump your Bible" - your pantheistic religion - to have anything to say - our approaches really aren't that different.

And you said . . .

"Ahh, ain't the tolerance of Christians jist so inspiring?"

Hmm . . . I hardly ever bring up the pope, because his hypocrisy is so easy to spot. He does virtually everything exactly the opposite of how Jesus did them. And, I could mention other religious leaders - just as Jesus noted REPEATEDLY in Bible days, most are deceived. However, Kundalini brought up the Pope, apparently as an example of Christianity. As I do not desire to be associated with the pope, I included him in my discussion of answering Kundalini.

And finally, who says I'm not tolerant? According to Webster's, the word "tolerate" means:

"To suffer to be, or to be done, without prohibition or hindrance; to allow or permit negatively, by not preventing; not to restrain; to put up with; as, to tolerate doubtful practices."

This word has been recently redefined by left-wingers as "to be tolerant you must say that everyone is right - because there is no such thing as wrong." This is not the definition of the word. In fact, I am quite tolerant.

I "allow or permit negatively" the Pope to do his thing. I will say that Christ and I don't agree with him, to his face, if need be, but I will not attempt to stop him. I will let him do his thing "without prohibition or hindrance". I will "put up with" him and with you.

Thus, you are a liar, Gilda. I am tolerant, according to the dictionary definition of the word. If you want to come up with a different or better word to describe me, then have at it. Just be careful that you don't break the rules of the board :-)

Robert Bright

-- Robert Bright (roosterbos@go.com), April 05, 2000.

Gilda, you said:

I want to extend my sympathy to your ex-fiance', she had the great, good sense to see that you would have driven her crazy with all your sin, and guilt, and pardons, and trangressions, and blathering on and on and on. Poor woman, I don't blame her for showing up at the wedding with a normal man; two would have been better. You say now that she's an athiest she is "one of the most oppressed and unhappy people I know." Did she tel you that? Do you know that for a fact. And my you are wonderfully strong not to show any sorrow/jealousy. But if you're so saintly, how come you're wondering, "who's in the better position now."

Well, no - she hasn't told me that herself - she's moved to another city and I hardly ever see her - thankfully so, since I still long to have my friend back. However, mutual friends have informed me of her unhappiness. She finds herself getting dumped or cheated on by her boyfriends repeatedly. Thus, things come full circle. And, the mere fact that she hardly ever smiles when I do see her would tend to imply a low level of happiness, wouldn't it?

As to my lack of sorrow or jealousy - I'm not sure if your statement is sincere or facetious, but I will assume it's sincere. It nearly destroyed me when I found that she had been lying and fornicating with the other guy. In fact, it's still a problem today. I have been sorely tempted to come over to your side because of the apparent cruelty of a God who would allow/cause this to happen to me. Notice, though, that I said "apparent cruelty."

After all, if I had married her, she probably would have committed adultery. Thus, I would have been hurt even more if God had permitted me to marry her.

Oh, and by the way, I don't blame her for showing up at the wedding with a "normal" man - I expected nothing different. I blame her for breaking her promises and for lying and for making out with the guy at the wedding. It is clearly in bad taste to make out at your sister's wedding in front of all the guests. Not cool. Get a room.

-- Robert Bright (roosterbos@go.com), April 05, 2000.