I have just stumbled across the thread ("Third Time this Week Christians are Blamed for Jewish Persecution", posted 3-23). A couple of comments:

1. Hitler had total contempt for Christianity. A very long time ago, I read a book entitled "Conversations with Hitler" in which people who shared dinner-table conversations with Hitler recounted these conversations. Hitler was fond of telling how even as a little boy, he had been smart enough to see through what he regarded as the absolute nonsense being taught by the nuns and monks.

I believe the Nazis tried to introduce their own religion, a pagan mish-mash, which didn't get very far.

So if Hitler made statements indicating he was a Christian, this was just cynical politics, and he didn't believe a word of it.

2. Having said this, I'm pretty sure what the Pope was really apologizing for. It is my understanding, for example, that it was only by order of Pope John in the 60's that reference to "the perfidious Jews" was removed from the Catholic liturgy. It can be argued that centuries of this kind of thinking contributed at least in part to the ferocious anti-Semitism which emerged in Germany, and in other countries in that region.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), March 25, 2000

Answers

"Conversations with Hitler" was a work of fiction. It was produced as a histocial novel.

-- Innocent Bystander (anonymous@cantfindagoodname.com), March 25, 2000.

To Innocent Bystander:

I may have gotten the title wrong. Maybe it was "Hitler's Conversations." I read it in, as I recall, 1961 or 1962. It most certainly was not a historical novel (the material was compiled, I think, by Trevor-Roper).

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), March 25, 2000.

The book is "Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941- 1945" by Trevor- Roper published in 1953. There is some question about whether Trevor- Roper faked some of the original German documents that he used as backup for the book but that was never proven. Certainly, it was not claimed to be a book of hisorical fiction.

-- Jim Cooke (JJCooke@yahoo.com), March 26, 2000.

There as a novel produced called "Conversations with Hitler". Sounds like you two are talking about two different books.

After reading FYI's info, I think that it's wiser to rely on what Hitler said about his own religion rather than second or third hand conversations remembered after the fact. The evidence shows that Hitler considered himself a Christian, plain and simple.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingnigthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 26, 2000.

Tarzan:

As I recall the book [long time ago], Trevor- Roper claimed to have taken notes of these conversations. I seem to remember that a lot of the conversations occurred during the war in the east [where things didn't go well for long]. Who knows what the state of mind of people in the upper levels of government were at that time. If I am remembering this wrong, someone will correct me [It would take me too long to find my copy]>

Best wishes,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), March 26, 2000.

If you want some answers, why don't you speak with the German people. They still feel much guilt about the events of WWII and the camps and are scrupulously honest in response to questions concerning their national history. You have 3 generations you can talk to. Those who were there---the grandparents of today---are the most illuminating. Whatever Hitler called himself is irrelevant...the German people knew then and now that Hitler was not a Christian. And the passages Hitler claims to prove his "Christianity" is perverted. But you will never know that yourself unless you pick up the Bible and read it yourself.....without taking passages out of context.

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 26, 2000.

Nancy-

I am a German Jew who grew up in Germany and who lives in the the States. In general, the German people are very reluctant to discuss the Holocaust and World War II. However, in the historical texts and school courses that do deal with WWII and Hitler, Hitler is discussed as a Christian. The German people acknowledge that Hitler was a Christian, and that he used his religion as a weapon against the Jewish people and others. This isn't seen as denigrating or devaluing Christianity, it's merely a point of history.

-- For your information (historian@historychannel.com), March 26, 2000.

For Your Information:

I've been to Germany several times, and on the last trip took my three kids. TWICE in Berlin my daughters were chased by skinheads trying to steal what they had in their hands [a pizza on one occasion.] These kids had swastikas tattoed on their bodies. One older man watched a group of these kids pass by as we were talking on a park bench and remarked, "We forget our history too easily in Germany."

Nancy:

Perhaps the older folks still feel guilt, but the younger generations aren't even TAUGHT about the holocaust in school. [I'm not suggesting that the folks in Germany SHOULD feel guilt, BTW, but ignoring history? Some would say that only happens in the U.S.]

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.

When I was a teenager in l955, I worked one summer, in a restaurant, for a German woman married to an American. She had been a nightclub singer in Germany, and Hitler was not fond of nightclub performers, as some of the comediennes did little sarcastic skits about him. She was a lovely person and told me a lot about Nazi Germany, and would say, "Oh, my poor, poor country is lost."

She found out by accident, from a fellow with the American embassy that Hitler was going to close the club and arrest the performers. He helped her get to Austria, where she met her future American husband. She said, "Hitler called himself a Christian, but he operated like Attila the Hun. So this was straight from the horse's mouth. In his way of thinking, and the same with many Christians, he thought of himself as a Christian. Yet they look at other Christians, and say he/she is *not* a Christian.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 26, 2000.

My husband was German, complete with the gargantuan burden of Germanic history. He told me that Hitler first used the camps to detain all astrologers and necromancers that were opposed to the views of Hitler's chosen astrologers and necromancers. He also told me of Hitler's brilliant generals that were not allowed to do what they knew to do to win the war because Hitler's astrologers advised against it. He spoke to me of patriots (Rommel, vonStaufenberg, Canarsi, etc.) who were decieved and mislead by Hitler but didn't realize it till too late. He laughed whenever anyone suggested that Hitler was Christian. "We are the land of Martin Luther he would say. We may not be Christian anymore but we know what it means to be one".

There is a disconnect between generations in Germany. It makes me fear for the country. The post war generation (babyboomers) both love thier parents and condemn them for their action/inaction in the 1930s and 1940s. The children of the boomers condemn both generations.

The Germans will speak about the camps, guardedly. The older ones kind of drift off. It is too painful for them. The Boomers really rev up. All, all of them say their parents didn't know what was going on,and blame them. How come they didn't know? Honestly, I think some of them really didn't know. This Boomer generation really is emmotionally torn.

The kids maybe taught in school that Hitler is Christian----just like Bill Clinton tells my kids from the TV screen that he is Christian. Even the kids know that is not true.....they cut their teeth first on Martin Luther. FYI I hope this clarifies my position.

The skin heads are not specific to Germany. They are here too, they have tatooes too, and they do more than steal pizza. (not to belittle the experience Anita.....I know that wwas scary).

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 26, 2000.

All this energy over whether a single man was Christian or not!

I don't understand why Christians get so upset over the fact that an evil man shared their religion. You don't see Catholics disowning the folks who started the Inquisition. You don't see Muslims disowning Idi Amin or Sirhan Sirhan. You don't see Jews questioning the beliefs of Bugsy Siegel of the guys in Murder Incorporated. You don't see Shintos disowning Tojo. Maybe it's because the adherents of those religions know that the misdeeds of one person doesn't discredit the religion as a whole.

Why waste your energy trying to disprove a point of history from almost 60 years ago? Why does it threaten you so that one particularly evil man shared your religious views?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 26, 2000.

Tarzan:

Why waste your energy trying to disprove a point of history from almost 60 years ago? Why does it threaten you so that one particularly evil man shared your religious views?

At some point, in this thread or another, I think the point was that some present leaders share Hitler's view on some policies. Or so I remember. I have been dodging tornadoes and can't keep track. So it goes!

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), March 26, 2000.

Tarzan, I believe I was invited to reply to FYI's post. What makes you think I feel threatened? Or do you feel threatened because Hitler liked to surround himself with necromancers and astrologers?

nancy

-- NH (new@mindspring.com), March 26, 2000.

Z,

"...dodging tornadoes" Whirlwind Tours, or is the weather lousy in your neighborhood? I hope you and your family are ok...

About Christianity & Hitler - Personally, I think he was more of an occultist than a Christian. I think that today's Christians are a bit "touchy" about negativity directed towards our religion because of an overwhelming barrage of such negative messages. I've heard people say "...you Christians should apologize for what happened so long ago..." yet these same people haven't asked the same of other religions. Yes, some Christians have committed atrocious acts in the name of God, yet many other religions have done the same and more. Islam still allows slavery; some African animist religions encourage female genital mutilation, sold slaves before Christians visited Africa and continue to deal with slavery to this day.

Personally, as a Christian, I find it tiresome that "Christian- bashing" has become an approved form of conscious-clearing. Unfortunately, nothing can change what has happened in the past and that more than just Christians were to blame. I think concentrating on our own actions, present and future, and stop beating a dead horse about what happened so long ago.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), March 26, 2000.

The Holocaust happened within living memory, not "so long ago".

NEVER AGAIN.

-- Uh... Deb... (anonymous@anonymous.net), March 26, 2000.

Then continue "concentrating on [your] own actions, present and future." Christians could begin by quit trying to convert those who choose not to convert to Christianity. They could continue by not trying to run the Republican Party, and imposing their values on everyone whose values didn't match theirs.They could also stop shouting, "we are the one TRUE religion." They could stop whining, and try and figure out just why the "tiresome Christian" is happening. When the bashers become the bashed, they also become outraged.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.

Sorry about the badly constructed post. Guess you can figure out what I meant. I've been on here too long.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 27, 2000.

Gilda, Any sage advice for....yourself? Just curious :)

Let's see, any group can be an advocate for anything within the law, as long as it's political...and thats fine, right? But standing by one's religious beliefs in life, at work, even in politics....is ...unacceptable?

I disagree.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), March 27, 2000.

Factfinder:

I'm going to play "second-string" for Gilda here, even though I suspect she's still online.

I think I understand what she's saying. I'm not a Christian myself, but [as I understand it] one of the tenets of many sectors of the Christian faith is evangelism. Evangelism, by definition, excludes those with alternative beliefs. There IS no agree to disagree. Some sectors of Christianity feel that their job is not done until everyone agrees with THEM.

Of course EVERYONE should feel free to practice their belief system, but when one's belief system INCLUDES the necessity to convert all around them to the same system, a burden is placed on those who do NOT share those beliefs. In the political system, there are VERY few parties involved. If the evangelical sector of Christianity becomes the VOICE of one party and voters don't agree with the evangelism, [even though some may agree with OTHER facets of the faith], one has no choice but to reject that party altogether despite platforms of which one may agree.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.

Anita, I don't think all evangelicals are that bad. I have been on the receiving end of plenty, from Jehovah's Witnesses and to a lesser extent from Mormons. I tell them straight off that I'm very happy with my own church, and they politely go away.

On the other hand, there are some that are downright hateful. People who are so ready to consign other people to Hell over some doctrinal disagreement are not doing their own souls any good IMHO.

-- Peter Erringon (petere@ricochet.net), March 27, 2000.

Peter:

Good to see you again. Of course I agree. Evangelists come in as many degrees and flavors as Christians. My brother, for instance, is a Christian evangelist. He tried on several occasions to modify MY belief system to more closely resemble his own. He gave up. We still love each other, despite our differences in philosophy.

Certainly you're not suggesting that zealotry in a given belief system is non-existent, or non-existent in some factions of political parties. I think you and I have observed zealotry on BOTH sides of the Y2k coin for some time now. The zealots speak loudly both in an attempt to drown the less-zealous believers of the philosophy in question and to draw in the folks that "just don't get it" without a slap of reality. [grin]

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 27, 2000.

Anita, I agree that there have been extreme cases of zealotry on both sides of the Y2K issue, very often characterized by pitiful use of logic. I have long felt that basic logic ought to be taught in gradeschool along with the 3 R's.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), March 28, 2000.

Thanks Anita, no I wasn't online, until this morning. But you said that very well for me, and surely Fact Fouler understood that some people aren't interested in a sales pitch. Christians remind me of used car dealers and telemarketers, they just can't leave you the hell alone. If a person wants a car, or vinyl siding or God, they know how to find them.

Fact Fouler, you are very good at twisting things. You can believe in whatever you want too; believe that hairballs are sacred relics, I don't care!! Got it? I don't give a damn. But I'm sick of you "preachers" constantly badgering anyone that doesn't fall in lockstep with your beliefs. I would never push my beliefs on anyone. But religious beliefs don't belong in the workplace unless your the minister and religion should stay out of politics. That's why I belong to Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.

P. S. Fact Fouler. Have I ever said your religion was WRONG? No, I have not. All I've said is that I'm personally am not buying it.

Have I ever said you should join my religion, which is the ONE, TRUE, Religion? No I have not. I don't think any one religion has a corner on the God market.

Have I ever said I hated any other religion? No I have not. Although I can assure you that the Christian religion is the last one I would ever choose. And I know whereof I speak, 'cause I was raised in it.

I once did business with a Baptist minister, who was one of my best customers and one of the nicest people I've every known. Not once, in the years and years we knew each other did he ever start a conversation with me about my religious beiefs, much less suggest that I join the ONE TRUE RELIGION.

I once asked him how come he's never asked me religion, and he said, "If you want to talk to me about it, you know you can. But, I don't bring it up, for that is the best way to turn people against it." There's a message there.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 28, 2000.

Deb M.,

You said (I assume about the Holocaust)

"...stop beating a dead horse about what happened so long ago."

I'm curious as to what your cutoff point would be, after which we should simply forget about any historical occurrence: A week? A year? A decade?

Please keep in mind that Jesus' appearance goes back a bit further than that. But for some reason you're choosing to remember that event -- sort of a selective acceptance?

There were enormously complex philosophical reasons that culminated in the Holocaust, going all the way back to Plato, through Kant, Hegel and others. This history is spelled out in an incredibly illuminating book "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff, a book recommended by the Holocaust Memorial Museum. There is a great deal that people can still learn about this so that it should never be repeated.

We should never forget...

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), March 28, 2000.

Eve,

For the record, my two best friends are Jewish, ok. Now...

My earlier post:

"About Christianity & Hitler - Personally, I think he was more of an occultist than a Christian. I think that today's Christians are a bit "touchy" about negativity directed towards our religion because of an overwhelming barrage of such negative messages. I've heard people say "...you Christians should apologize for what happened so long ago..." yet these same people haven't asked the same of other religions. Yes, some Christians have committed atrocious acts in the name of God, yet many other religions have done the same and more. Islam still allows slavery; some African animist religions encourage female genital mutilation, sold slaves before Christians visited Africa and continue to deal with slavery to this day."

"Personally, as a Christian, I find it tiresome that "Christian- bashing" has become an approved form of conscious-clearing. Unfortunately, nothing can change what has happened in the past and that more than just Christians were to blame. I think concentrating on our own actions, present and future, and stop beating a dead horse about what happened so long ago."

Your quotes:

"...stop beating a dead horse about what happened so long ago." I'm curious as to what your cutoff point would be, after which we should simply forget about any historical occurrence: A week? A year? A decade?

I am not saying that we should forget what has occured (to forget our history is to be doomed to repeat it, as the old quote goes), but instead stop the blame game and temper tantrums. Yes, it was a horrible, evil atrocity that occured, but we can't go back and change history. As long as the blaming continues and grudges held, the healing is delayed. IMO, we need to concentrate on what we CAN change - our actions today and in the future. The people who are doing the loudest yelling, are they really interested in stopping from what happened again, or are they more concerned about being "right", winning the "gotcha last" game? Personally, I'd be much more concerned about preventing those actions from happening again, considering the prevalence of skin-heads in Germany and America - hate crimes are still happening today and need to be addressed.

Your quote:

Please keep in mind that Jesus' appearance goes back a bit further than that. But for some reason you're choosing to remember that event -- sort of a selective acceptance?

Please, not even close...

We should never forget...

Agreed, I never said that this should be forgotten, just that we need to stop beating a dead horse and work towards a better future.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), March 28, 2000.