Another time bomb....Oh, my...... : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

The rBGH TimeBomb

Cows have been cross-bred, selectively bred (and served between two pieces of bread with special sauce).

Cows are also injected with genetically engineered versions of THEIR OWN growth hormones. These new hormones allow the animal to produce greater amounts of milk. The NEW milk is different from the OLD milk.

As part of their 55,000 page application to FDA, Monsanto was required to, and did submit a chart identifying every amino acid on the 191 amino acid chain structure of BST. On that chart, amino acid #144 was represented as being lysine. It was not. Monsanto made a mistake.

During the gene transcription process, a freak amino acid was created. A Monsanto scientist, Bernard Violand, published evidence of this mistake in the July 1994 issue of the journal Protein Science. The mistake resulted in the production of a substance unlike the naturally occurring bovine protein. Amino acid #144, lysine, was incorrectly transcribed as a "freak" amino acid called, epsilon-N-acetyllysine. Shades of Jurassic Park! Shades of Frankenstein! Monsanto had created a "Frankenfood!" FDA allowed that food to enter our food supply. Monsanto has never officially admitted this error.

This mistake SHOULD have invalidated $500,000,000 worth of Monsanto research... but NO FDA ACTION WAS TAKEN!

Permission granted by author to post the following:


Faces of hope, voices of space, None for us to seek and prey They are children from the sun Innocent in their mortal wound Singing earth songs

The Metamorphosis

Will fish mate with tomatoes or soybeans crossbreed with petunias? Will pigs mate with humans or rabbits with mice? Of course not, but some scientists are combining the genes of these diverse creatures against the laws of natural selection. This unsacred liaison invented by chemical corporate giants is called genetic engineering. This high tech species metamorphosis makes the Existential writer Franz Kafka, with his man Gregor who woke up one morning and found that he had become a giant bug, a prophet of our time.

Millions of cows imprisoned inside factory farms suddenly wake up to find their udders engorged to an enormous size. Instead of carrying twelve pounds of milk to feed their calves, the cows are forced to pump out fifty to sixty pounds of milk just for human consumption, not knowing they've been injected with a genetically engineered growth hormone.

Genes are blue prints composed of thousands of genetic codes. They carry information for the proteins that make up the structure, function and outward traits that constitute the individual organism. DNA ultimately dictates the distinctive qualities of a species, from microorganism to insect, plant, animal and human being. The genetic codes in DNA determine physical forms, skin color, size of fruits, sensory structures of animals, types of trees, specific times for flowers to blossom, and billions of other features and functions.

Genetic engineering (or bioengineering) is a technique to splice, delete, add, isolate, recombine or transfer genes from one organism to another that may be totally unrelated. Alteration in genes and chromosomes causes disruption and disturbance in the biochemical structure of species and can result in species mutation. It is a kind of artificially programmed evolution (or devolution) changing the individual organism as its starting point, in contrast to natural evolution in which changes occur among diverse populations through natural selection.

Since the early nineteen fifties, biologists began to turn their attention to the mysterious double helix called DNA. Within twenty years scientists were already mixing DNA extracted from different species. The quantum leap of this new technology allowed the human creature to become the new creator of life on earth, creating a variety of plants and animals. Now natural evolution can be halted at our fingertips, forever altering the meaning of life and forcing us to redefine religion, nature and individuality.

Cellular dynamics in all living systems requires mutual acknowledgement and interdependence, a constant cooperation between the individual life and the entire biosphere to maintain the stability and equilibrium suitable for species survival. The holistic concept of the Gaia Hypothesis proposes a subtle mutual participation between organic life (the moving part) and the geological environment (the unmoving part) as an integral whole in the evolutionary journey. Bioengineering disregards this fundamental intricacy by disrupting species integrity, a gesture in contempt of nature's wisdom. Science can alter other creature's very genetic structure to suit our desires and the market value. Do animals, plants, forests, mountains, and oceans exist only for human benefit?

The Silenced Plea

Among the many victims of these artificial mutations, farm animals suffer the most. Their entire lives are locked inside factory warehouses, manipulated by machines as if their sole purpose to be born was to be harvested by man. They never have a chance to see the sky or smell the earth. They can never experience the pleasure or the freedom of living beings like our pets, the wildlife, or ourselves. Farm animals are subjected to life long abuse by the most atrocious, appalling manipulation invented by agribusiness. Their utter misfortune is caused by being labeled as food animals, but they are still sentient beings not so different than we are.

The super pig, a product of genetic engineering, is a sick animal, fattened artificially by human growth hormone. This super pig must endure side effects including crippling arthritis and distorted vision caused by the human growth genes that makes them cross-eyed. Pigs are being modified with human genes so that the organs of their offspring can be transplanted into humans. Soon, in addition to factory pig farms, there will be pig organ farms. A new creature called a GEEP, is part goat and part sheep. In nature, the two species never mate, but our modern alchemists have already perfected such a new species that never existed before.

And then there is the case of the ordinary chicken. The modern bird has been bred to grow at twice its normal rate. Its legs can no longer carry its massive body weight, and the animal suffers leg pain and deformities as well as an enormous strain on its heart and lungs. Often these chickens experience heart failure before the age of six weeks. Many other die due to rampant infectious diseases caused by intensive breeding. A transgenic chicken is engineered with a cow's growth hormone gene, which imbalances its entire metabolism. One cannot imagine the intensity of suffering caused by such mutations.

Someday, chickens might be engineered with genes from centipedes, giving the birds more than two legs, so that we can have more drum sticks for our dinner table. Or the chicken may be further modified into a kind of tube, without head, wings or tail, but with many legs, so it will produce more meat for us and be easier to manage for commercial exploitation. No one will know how to take care of this new breed of animal; in fact there will be no need for veterinarians. The new food machine, no longer a real creature by definition, can put an end of hundreds years of debate on animal rights.

Are farm animals not part of the animal kingdom sanctified by nature? Are they not "the breathing shapes, many voiced landscape," a phrase borrowed from David Abram's book, The End Of Nature. They also have their special journey on Earth and deserve equal compassion and protection. The primary reason that they are excluded from ethical considerations, and even from the nature programs on public television, is because of their innocence and gentleness that allows them to easily be raised and turned into our food. We would be very outraged if wild animals like elephants and dolphins were subjected to such conditions.

The Brave New World

Over the last three million years, human beings developed slowly from a species that was mostly vegetarian like other primates, living in harmony with other animals. Then we gradually developed agriculture, languages and weapons. During the last two hundred years since the industrial revolution our power has soared and the development of our techno-culture has escalated at an alarming rate. The human population will soon reach six billion and will double its number again in the next thirty years. Daniel Quinn describes the scenario of population explosion in his book "The Story of B." He demonstrates that caged mice continue to multiply as long as their food supply is unlimited. Quinn's conclusion is based upon a fundamental law of ecology: An increase in food availability for a species results in population growth for that species. Genetic engineering aims at unnaturally increased food production to fuel the already excessive human population explosion that is burdening the planet and its resources.

Presently we are breeding 1.28 billion cattle, which further deplete the Earth's resources. In America, one hundred thousand cows are slaughtered every day to satisfy we human carnivores. Eventually, the planet will be crowded with human species along with our billions of food animals. As for the rest of the species, they will go extinct by loosing their natural habitat. There is a strong connection between diet and behavior, with the global emphasis on meat-eating reinforcing aggression in society. As a result, we humans have become the deadliest predators on the planet. The fast growing new industry of biotechnology will eventually usher us into a brave new world beyond imagination. Not even Plato, Darwin or contemporary evolutionists and ethicists can provide meaning for such a strange world.

Biotech companies also profit from patenting new species, genetically engineered bacteria, seeds, primates, pigs, cows, chickens, dogs, rabbits, and mice and owning the new species under patent rights. The first ever patented animal was the ONCO- MOUSE in 1992, a mouse genetically engineered for cancer research, and many other patented species are soon to follow. Patenting lab created animals is not only religiously and ethically offensive, it opens endless possibilities for humans to exploit other living beings.

Confusion in the Air

Mono-agriculture, the production of a few selected crops for mass production, itself is an artificial manipulation of nature. Along with the heavy spray of pesticide and herbicide it is abusive to the soil and threatens biodiversity. Planting bioengineered herbicide resistant crops, which is one of the main projects of genetic engineering will only allow farmers to spray higher level of herbicides without damaging crops. A vicious cycle will be created that will seriously contaminate our environment and poison animals.

Another danger is that biotechnology promises us a new variety of disease resistant crops. Transgenic crops contain genes from viruses, bacteria, animals and other plants. For example, transgenic tomatoes and strawberries contain the antifreeze gene from Arctic fish so they are better frost resistant. Such bizarre, surreal combinations not only can disrupt the host genetic functions but also can cause confused, chaotic biochemical mutations in the plants. When transgenic crops cross pollinate with wild plants, it can cause migration of their gene traits, including making them resistant to antibiotics. In time this migration will lead to new mutations and the fields will be eventually taken over by the super grass created by our genetic indiscretion.

The production of new lab crops in developed countries poses a threat to the livelihood of millions of farmers in undeveloped countries. For example, the lab product of coca butter and a new sugar substitute could put ten million farmers in poor countries out of work. The new product will not help farmers in poor countries who cannot afford such technology. The increased crops mainly benefit the countries already living in abundance, and the profit primarily goes to the transnational industries that are forging new global commercial monopolies in the name of scientific advancement.

Transgenic salmon contains genes from Arctic sea flounder, which enables them to grow six times larger and faster. Yet eventually these salmon can escape into the wild and cause unpredictable ecological disruption. The DNA of a virus can pass through even the gut of mice and find its way into every kind of cell, creating genetic disturbances including cancer, a disease that more than thirty years of medical research has been unable to find the cure.

A gene can replicate indefinitely, spread and combine. We have no means to stop this process but must let it pass on in its invisible ways. When a massive load of virus genes combines with wild relatives it can result in creating super viruses that can lead to deadly diseases. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho from the Open University biology department in the United Kingdom believes that "a vector currently used in fish has a framework from marine leukaemic virus, which causes leukaemia in mice, but can infect all mammalian cells. Vectors used in genetic engineering can infect a wide range of species. It's a bad science and a bad business making dangerous alliance."

Pathogens, The Ultimate Predator

Along with ecological disasters, the year 1997 can be rightly named a year of the holocaust of farm animals. Outbreaks of infectious diseases among farm animals all over the world has caused researchers to worry that we are due for another global epidemic, primarily owing to the over use of antibiotics. Two strains of E. coli as well as Staphylococcus bacteria now contaminate meat, poultry and diary products. Genetic engineering can greatly compound this problem. Laboratory contained transgenic organisms when released into the environment are capable of spreading across species barriers and creating new diseases. A new danger is that they can easily develop multiple antibiotic resistance. In recent years old diseases like cholera, malaria and tuberculosis are coming back in new strains resistant to treatment. At the same time new pathogens are arising. To cope with this, medical laboratories will have to sacrifice billions more animals for medical experimentation. What befalls other creatures also befalls ourselves. In the future, allergy specialists will have to study gene behavior in order to treat new allergies, because genetic engineering involves adding new proteins to artificially altered food products. This can aggravate allergies since proteins cause most allergies. We are becoming guinea pigs and without our consent being herded into the giant laboratory of biotechnology.

Planetary Encroachment

Can we entrust our food supply and the future of the Earth to those who have no respect or ethical consideration for the living planet, who are motivated mainly by short term profits? Bioengineering is promoted by a multibillion-dollar agribusiness, which controls large segments of the world food supply. It is spearheaded by scientists whose strange alchemical adventure recognizes no species boundary; not even God can predict the consequences. The potentials of bioengineering can become the most dangerous device to destroy nature ever invented, worse in the long run than nuclear weapons. Why is our government so complacent about this important issue and not keeping us properly informed? Because biotechnology promises the security and abundance of our food supplies, therefore more population growth. For the time being, we are comforted by the deceptive appearance of affluence and continuous economic growth. We can continue cluttering our environment, encroaching into the wilderness, and trespassing territory that naturally belongs to other creatures.

New technologies are erasing the most vital processes that human beings need to form direct maternal bonding with nature. Human beings, like other animals, need physical contact with nature, to live and play with curiosity and humility, sharing nature's offering and wisdom with other Earth residents. Modern men are obsessed with power, possession, production, technological efficiency and speed. Unlike ants and bees, which are at least capable of living in altruistic cooperative societies, we continue to operate out of our own self-interest only. As Daniel Quinn wrote in his book, "Ishmael," instead of being a "leaver" on earth, we have become the only "taker." The deterioration of our sense of moral responsibility will only accelerate the current ecological crisis.

All species and habitats are members of the bio-community. From the daisies of the field to great whales in the ocean, from the desert to the rainforest, each has its own intelligence, personality, and consciousness, to evolve creatively with mutual consent. Each has the right to be protected. Human beings as one of these species are indeed out of control. This is evidenced by the growing population explosion, the outbreak of new infectious diseases, the accelerated crime rate, our exploitative economic policies and the way each of us is destroying the planet as a wasteful consumer. Millions of years of planetary evolutionary efforts can become obsolete in a few decades. Sensitive species, such as frogs in some areas in the United States, are already displaying deformities owing to mutation caused by environmental pollution. Though we have not figured out the mystery of the Big Bang behind the existence of the universe, human history is already entering into the second big bang, an explosion through genetic engineering that promises to radically alter everything that we know. The current measures we use to secure our own species mean the end of nature. Without biodiversity the earth cannot evolve and is doomed to decay.

Hope Against Hope In this time of global crisis, each one of us needs to awaken a new ethical vitality and put forth the energy and moral responsibility that our planet desperately needs to resist the forces of commercial exploitation. We need this for our own sanity and meaningfulness, sacredness of the living Earth. The survival of their future is our own survival. Without collective effort, we will not be able to remedy the ill fate of the planet. Instead of self-gratification, we all need to make some sacrifices in order to give hope to other creatures. Bill McKibben made a deeply moving and refreshing non-anthropocentric statement in his book, The End Of Nature: "So I hope against hope, Though not in our time, and not in the time of our children, or their children, if we now, TODAY, limit our numbers, our desires and our ambitions, perhaps nature could someday resume its independent working."

Since there is no regulation in labeling genetically engineered products, we have no way to avoid them. Hence we must demand that our government enforce strict regulation in labeling all transgenic products. We can boycott processed food made by genetic engineering, and begin to educate our communities about this important issue. We should support local farmers by purchasing locally grown, organic produce, and switch to an ECO- VEGETARIAN DIET. As long as we breathe fresh air, eat food, and enjoy the beauty of nature, we owe it to mother Earth and her billions of years of sustainability.

References: 1. The Unholy Alliance. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 2. Transgenic Transgression of Species Integrity and Species Boundaries. Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 3. Why You Should Be Concerned With Genetically Engineered Food. Dr. Ron Epstein 4. Algeny. Jeremy Rifkin 5. Beyound Beef. Jeremy Rifkin 6. The End Of Nature. Bill McKibben 7. The Population Explosion. Paul R. Ehrlich 8. The Unnatural Order. Tom Regan 9. How Are We To Live. Peter Singer 10. Earth and Other Ethics. Christopher D. Stone

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-- Darlene K (, March 25, 2000


According to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), in 1994 the average American ate 586 pounds of milk and dairy products, 394 pounds of vegetables, 121 pounds of fresh fruit, 199 pounds of meat and 193 pounds of products containing flour and cereal. That totals to over four pounds of food per day per person and nearly forty percent of that is milk and dairy, one very lopsided food pyramid! Click for large pyramid)

Each sip of milk provides you with: Pituitary hormones (PRL, GH, TSH, FSH, LH ACTH Oxytocin) Steroid hormones (Estradiol, Estriol, Progesterone, Testosterone, 17-Ketosteroids, Corticosterone, Vitamine D) Hypothalamic hormones (TRH, LHRH, Somatostatin, PRL-inhibiting factor, PRL-releasing factor, GnRH, GRH)

Thyroid and Parathyroid hormones (T3, T4, rT3, Calcitonin, Parathormone, PTH peptide) gastrointestinal peptides (Vasoactive intestinal peptide, Bombesin, Cholecystokinin, Gastrin, Gastrin inhibitory peptide, Pancreatic peptide, Y peptide, Substance P and Neurotensin) Growth Factors (IGF's (I and II), IGF binding proteins, Nerve growth factor, Epidermal growth factor and TGF alpha, TGF beta, Growth Inhibitors MDGI and MAF, and Platelet derived growth factor

Others... (PGE, PGF2 alpha, cAMP, cGMP, Delta sleep inducing peptide, Transferrin, Lactoferrin, Casomorphin and Erythropoietin

In Short...Growth hormones, fat, cholesterol, allergenic proteins, blood, pus, antibiotics, bacteria, virus and more!

Check the differences between the first two sites... (and listen to their story at 1-800-WHY-MILK [1-800-949-6455]) (Site registered to: Bozell Public Relations)

and (MooMilk is sponsored, in part, by Monsanto, WestAgro, I.D.ology, and Sire Power, Inc..) (Site registered to: G.J. Silva and Son Dairy, Inc.)

And then compare them with and the NOTMILK dialog at 1-888--NOT-MILK (1-888-668-6455) (Site registered to: Robert Cohen, concerned citizen)

Did you know that...

Milk is the foundation of heart disease and the explanation for America's number one killer.

Milk is the reason that one out of six American women will develop cancer of the breast.

Twenty-five million American women over the age of forty have been diagnosed with bone crippling arthritis and osteoporosis. These females have been drinking in excess of two pounds of milk per day for their entire adult lives. Why are their doctors blind to the fact that drinking milk does not prevent osteoporosis?

Calcium in milk is not adequately absorbed and milk consumption is the probable cause of osteoporosis.

Milk is responsible for allergies, colic, colitis, earaches, colds and congestion in young children. Research indicates that one bovine protein in milk destroys the insulin-producing beta cells of the pancreas, causing diabetes.

Sixty Percent of America's dairy cows have leukemia virus. Is it wise to eat the flesh or drink body fluids from diseased animals?

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) used to allow a small amount of antibiotics in milk. FDA scientists recognized that consumers should not be drinking a fluid containing antibiotics. In 1990, the one part per hundred-million antibiotic residue in milk standard was increased by one-hundred times to one part per million. Today, farmers are permitted to inject their animals with increased levels of antibiotics.

Beer bellies are indeed making a comeback in America. According to the Food Consumption, Prices and Expenditures, 1996, Statistical Bulletin Number 928, published by the USDA, the average American consumed 24 gallons of beer in 1994. That works out to less than 8 1/2 ounces of beer per day. Total milk and dairy products consumed per capita in 1994 equaled 26 ounces per day, more than triple the amount of beer. One 12 ounce glass of beer contains 144 calories and no fat. On the other hand, a 12 ounce glass of milk contains 300 calories and 16 grams of fat. It seems that beer is taking a bad rap. Protruding stomachs on overweight people should be called milk bellies, not beer bellies.

When we drink milk we are taking in the most powerful growth hormone naturally produced in our own bod ies. However, this growth hormone in milk is safeguarded by naturally occurring mechanisms unique to milk. That hormone is called Insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and it is identical (70 amino acids, same gene sequence) in cows and humans.

-- some more bad milk stuff (, March 25, 2000.


If you are going to post junk science, at least keep the post short enough so that I read them. If you want a review of this stuff, go to

Best wishes,,,,,


-- Z1X4Y7 (, March 25, 2000.

This stuff is interesting--long, yes, but interesting.

-- Mara (, March 25, 2000.


This one part indicates that you don't know what you are talking about:

Alteration in genes and chromosomes causes disruption and disturbance in the biochemical structure of species and can result in species mutation.

You can either discuss this or make it a political agenda.

Best wishes,,,,,

The debunke

-- Z1X4Y7 (, March 25, 2000.


Think the subject of contaminated chicken has been done to death?

Think again.

Find out just how foul eating fowl can be.

Consider these realities:

The average North American eats more than 50 pounds of chicken per year roughly double the amount consumed just 20 years ago.

At least 1,000 US citizens are killed each year by contaminated chicken. As many as 80 million others are sickened.

Inspectors have about two seconds to visually examine the inside and outside of each chicken. At this rate, inspectors may examine 12,000 or more chickens in one day.

There are presently 1,370 unfilled federal meat inspector positions. In 1994 and 1995, more than 1.9 million inspection tasks went unperformed because of these vacancies.

A 3-ounce serving of chicken breast contains 75 mgs of cholesterol. A 3-ounce serving of ground beef contains 72 mgs. No plant foods contain cholesterol.

The owner of the nation's largest chicken producer Don Tyson earns about $5 million in salary, dividends and bonuses each year. Pay for workers on the poultry line are less than for any other manufacturing industry except apparel.

More than 90 percent of US chickens and eggs are produced on factory farms. Roughly 7.5 billion chickens were slaughtered in the US in 1995.

In a single year, US poultry operations use enough water to meet all the domestic needs of nearly 4.5 million North Americans.

Producing one egg takes about 63 gallons of water.

Full citations for this brochure are available upon request or see

Eating chicken is proving to be an especially hazardous enterprise...

For starters, approximately 30 percent of chicken is tainted with Salmonella and 62 percent with its equally virulent cousin, Campylobacter.

Time magazine calls raw chicken "one of the most dangerous items in the American home," and each year in the US alone, contaminated chicken kills at least 1,000 people while sickening as many as 80 million others.

It's no surprise really that chicken is decidedly foul.Desperately crowded factory farms--where more than 90 percent of US chickens and eggs are raised--are fertile breeding grounds for disease. Additionally, slaughterhouses do an excellent job of spreading pathogens from one bird to the next.

Even if chicken was pathogen-free (clearly an unsafe assumption for any shopper to make), it would hardly qualify as wholesome. Not only is chicken nearly devoid of health-promoting compounds found only in plant foods--things like complex carbohydrates, antioxidants, phytochemicals and fiber--it also contains other suspect ingredients rarely recommended as part of a healthy diet.

Cholesterol. You'll find just as much artery-filling cholesterol in chicken as in beef and pork. Cholesterol is found exclusively in muscle tissue and can't be trimmed away.

Protein. People can meet or exceed their protein requirements simply by choosing a varied plant-centered diet and eating ample calories, says the American Dietetic Association. No animal foods are necessary. Many North Americans already eat twice the protein they need, and excessive protein has been linked to osteoporosis, kidney disease and other medical problems.

Antibiotic Residues. Roughly half of all antibiotics used in the US are fed to farm animals. If meat contains drug residues, it's highly unlikely to be detected, as these tests are rarely conducted.

Mystery Feed. Each year billions of pounds of slaughterhouse leftovers are made into animal reed, much of it for chickens. Chickens are also sometimes fed manure, which may contain pesticides, drug residues, pathogens, heavy metals, hormones and microbial toxins.

If you took a raw chicken and dropped it in a cow pile or in a pile of chicken manure, would you pick it up, wash it off and cook it for dinner? That's just about what's happening at these plants. -- Pat Godfrey, Inspector Tyson's chicken processing plant, Springdale, Arkansas

Despite millions of people falling ill each year, the US Department of Agriculture (the government agency responsible for meat safety) continues to stamp every thigh, breast and wing with its seal of approval, prompting many to ask, "Who's minding the henhouse?" Sadly, USDA has historically placed the interests of the influential poultry industry ahead of those of the poultry-consuming public. A new, more-scientific government meat inspection system has been agreed upon in principle, but tangible improvements remain years away.

A poultry plant is not a good place to work. When you miss a day they punish you. If you're sick they punish you. The supervisors holler at you, but you can't say anything. They treat you like a child. -- Wonder Sims, 23, poultry worker.

The horrors found routinely inside chicken slaughterhouses are not limited to grisly scenes of disassembled chickens. They also include treacherous working conditions and dismally low wages. In 1994, a Wall Street Journal writer described the work he experienced first-hand in several slaughterhouses as, "faster than ever before, subject to Orwellian control and electronic surveillance, arid reduced to limited tasks that are numbingly repetitive, potentially crippling and stripped of any meaningful skills or chance to develop them... The work was so fast-paced that it took on a zany chaos, with arms and boxes and poultry flying in every direction."

Chicken production also exacts a steep environmental toll. It takes up to 700 gallons of water, six pounds of grain, and the equivalent of about one-fifth a gallon of gasoline to produce one pound of chicken.

In addition, manure from the chicken industry is directly responsible for wide-spread pollution of waterways and groundwater.

Unless we dramatically curb our appetite for chicken, the future seems grim. We can expect more people hospitalized and killed by contaminated chicken, and more families mourning the loss of loved ones. We can look forward to more rivers ;and drinking water fouled with manure, more workers facing perilous tasks and lousy pay, and much more animal suffering. Despite the present horrors and bleak forecast, however, consumers continue to sleepwalk through the checkout line with shopping carts full of fowl. One can only wonder, when will we awaken from this nightmare?

For references and more information on this subject, please see:

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-- ... (, March 25, 2000.

Z: "Nothing bad ever happens. Till it happens."

E.H. Porter: "Nonsense. The system is self-correcting."

Me: Hmmm. Could these two be Flint and Decker in masquerade?

-- Willie Wonka (, March 25, 2000.

The Island of Dr. Moreau.....PG-13

I once saw a gaboon which was a cross between a gorilla & a baboon. It was the meanest animal had a gorilla head on one end and a baboon head on the other.

What made it so mean?

It was extremely constipated!

-- tc (, March 25, 2000.


ROFL! I never noticed it before...scary! Somehow I can't picture Flint playing "dress-up", but Decker....

-- Thanks! (Too@funny.!!!), March 25, 2000.


-- consumer (, March 25, 2000.

Darlene...thank you so much for posting this. It's a shame that most people dismiss this as garbage. But I think most humans are comfortable in their (albeit unhealthy) habits and don't want to make any changes, even if it means a better life, or saving or easing the life of a tortured animal. Most humans are selfish greedy creatures.

btw...I was unfortunately raised on massive amounts of dairy products. Interestingly enough, as soon as I gave up all dairy, I had a normal period (for the first time in my life!).

-- cin (, March 25, 2000.


-- Lars (, March 25, 2000.

Good line from a movie dealing with the unusual bonding of genetic materials....

"Be afraid, very afraid!"

-- kritter (, March 25, 2000.

btw...I was unfortunately raised on massive amounts of dairy products. Interestingly enough, as soon as I gave up all dairy, I had a normal period (for the first time in my life!).

-- cin (, March 25, 2000.

That's a little more than I wanted to know....... but..... Have you ever looked at your teeth?

What do you think "God", or evolution ment them to do?... munch veggies?... or eat meat?

The human body has been omnivors for millions of years, that includes all dairy products and red meats.

Take your political agendas, and alt life styles and put them right where they belong... and enjoy a nice thick steak for a change. :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), March 26, 2000.

Good Morning Willie:

Z: "Nothing bad ever happens. Till it happens." E.H. Porter: "Nonsense. The system is self-correcting." Me: Hmmm. Could these two be Flint and Decker in masquerade?

Flint. LOL. A real compliment though. Actually, I have decades of experience in the field that you are discussing. The people lecturing in my first course in the field were Watson and Crick. I go back a ways. When someone makes a statement, central to their argument, that clearly discounts their expertise, it invalidates the whole statement.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (, March 26, 2000.

Hello Z1X4Y7-- I have no expertise in this area and you obviously do. The following is an excerpt from an article by John Fagen in USA Today in 1997. Do you think it is correct or nonsense science? I posted the article on the GM thread a few days ago but got no comments.

"The risks are not hypothetical. Any unbiased scientist familiar with the technology will admit that genetic engineering can give rise to unanticipated allergens and toxins. Already we have seen this scenario in action. In 1989, a dietary supplement, L-tryptophan, caused 37 U.S. deaths and 1,511 nonfatal cases of a disease called eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS). The Centers for Disease Control linked these cases to tryptophan manufactured using genetically engineered bacteria. A study published in Science in 1990 confirmed that the tryptophan was contaminated with a toxic "novel amino acid" not present in tryptophan produced by other methods."

Perhaps my real question is about John Fagen and the weight I should be giving this article. It seems pretty dicy to be using bacteria and viruses and insect DNA in GM foods.

Maybe the world should be thinking in terms of unmodified "control zones"--natural places where we could turn to in case all the GM stuff goes horribly wrong.

-- Pam (, March 26, 2000.


The only food my GM gets is regular unleaded, with one tank every other month of high test.

No complaints from it.


-- Pink Cadillac (topdown@cruising.around), March 26, 2000.


The information that you quote is essentially correct [although not necessarily related to the information on this thread]. I agree that we need a public discussion on this matter. I agree that non-technical people should be a big part of the discussion. The case you describe was not the result of using rDNA techniques, it represents poor quality control [there are many reports of aflatoxicosis and reaction to peanut or wheat; once again no rDNA, just poor quality control]. It is clear that every new product must be considered separately [risk benefit analysis]. The use of rDNA techniques are not going to make a product automatically dangerous, nor will they make that product automatically safe.

The point is this: If there is to be a public discussion, the participants that start by defending junk science will be ignored.

Now I have to play Candide and tend my garden. With this weather I be planting corn in March.

Best wis

-- Z1X4Y7 (, March 26, 2000.

Netghost...are you one of those people who can't say the word "vagina"? Do you think that "period" is a dirty word too? Why is it OK to talk about penis's and scrotums, but not menstruation?

You're ignorance is showing as well as your age.

If you had READ the article, than you would have known that it's not about whether man is herbivore or omnivore (idiot!), but about what is being done to the meat, the animals, and the genetic engineering involved. You're jumping to your own conclusions.

Narrow minded old FOOL!

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.corn), March 26, 2000.


Dairy products are FULL of unnatural amounts of all kinds of hormones. (thought you needed some extra help with this one}

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.corn), March 26, 2000.

When a lot of us were growing up and until fairly recently, there weren't all these antibiotics and growth-hormones in our meat and dairy products. That's the real issue. In a way, it's like my arguments against fluoridation. We don't have much choice; we either stop eating most meat and dairy foods, or we pay more and take the extra time to shop for organic (hopefully!) products. This stuff may not may or may not affect adults as much as growing kids, but is it really worth the risk?

Netghost, I'm a meat-and-potatos (and beer) kind of guy, too, but I'm sure not happy with all the crap that goes with it and tend to eat a lot less meat and dairy products than in previous years. I just hope the beer is still OK, though! Sure beats soda pop.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 26, 2000.


Interesting that you had a problem that you feel due to the hormones in dairy products. Many, years ago, I overheard some fellows talking about how girls of that day were developing sooner due to the hormones in cow's milk. Of course their REAL complaint was that they could no longer tell the 18 year olds from the 13 year olds. I kept that thought in mind, however, while I watched my own three kids develop through the years. I'm quite fond of dairy products myself, but understood they could induce allergies if introduced to children under a year old, so waited until they were past that "critical" period before allowing them to indulge. As I told Flash in another thread, I simply put the food on the table and let the kids choose. If they drank milk, fine. If they didn't drink milk, various juices were offered as well.

It was interesting to observe the bodily needs kick in. When they got low on potassium, I saw them eat more bananas and broccoli. When they got low on other vitamins, I saw them eat foods rich in those vitamins. Fortunately, I didn't notice a deficiency in zinc, but had heard that small children oftentimes eat dirt when low in zinc.

It never bothered me if they didn't eat at all. They seemed to eat like mad when they were growing and eat almost nothing when they weren't. Both girls grew to be milk lovers, although one prefers whole milk and the other prefers 2% milk. They didn't "blossom" any earlier than I did, and didn't "blossom" to an extent that would indicate anything outside of genetic tendencies. Both girls experience PMS, which I never did. They also have cysto...whatever it's called...meaning little lumps in the breasts that swell prior to menstruation. I had that also when I was younger. Doctors now suggest that caffeine is the cause, so the girls don't eat chocolate, or drink coffee or cola.

Out of curiosity, may I ask if you were FORCED to indulge in dairy products, or did you engage because you enjoyed the taste?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.


My mother used to buy extra-rich milk (remember that?), tons of cheese, and there were always 2 to 3 gallons of ice cream in the freezer at all times. I adore the taste of dairy, really. Nothing tastes as good as melted cheese, yumm. As far as the caffeine and cystic breasts, I drink perhaps 4 cups of coffee daily, and had heard this would cause the sore breasts which I would experience every month, and which had recently grown nearly unbearable. The odd thing is, when I cut out dairy, I couldn't tell that I was indeed starting because there was NO SORENESS. I haven't at all cut down on my caffeine intake, So it must have been the dairy.

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.corn), March 26, 2000.

"Doctors now suggest that caffeine is the cause, so the girls don't eat chocolate, or drink coffee or cola."

When I cut out the caffeinated soda two years ago, my breasts quit hurting.

Cin, maybe different substances affect us differently? Maybe milk products affect you, and your family that way; and caffeine affects others the same way. Whatever it is, it sure is nice to discover what it is, and eliminate from the diet. (I like sleeping on my belly.)



-- Laura (Ladylogic@...), March 26, 2000.

There is too much evidence supporting these articles, to just blow them off as "junk science." I like these articles, and have read much that backs them up. Try Peter Montagu for instance. Why did Monsanto sue him for exposing Agent Orange? Why did Monsanto sue dairy farmers that wanted to advertise their milk as rGBH free? These companies are not your friendly neighborhood dairyman. They are corporations that only care about the bottom line.

Trolls go take a hot, soapy enema and get rid of your bull shit..

-- gilda (, March 26, 2000.

Thanks, Cin.

I don't remember ever hearing about extra-rich milk. We didn't have cheese or ice-cream around when I was a kid, and my kids didn't like cheese when they were little. They like it NOW, however. We didn't have ice cream around when I was a kid either, and my own kids only got it when we took a walk to the ice-cream store as a treat.

Dairy products tend to be mucous producers, so I've told the kids to lay off when they feel a cold coming on. I'll have to ask the girls if the caffeine withdrawal helped. For myself, the problem went away after nursing the kids. I can't say whether caffeine or dairy had an effect, as I drank lots of coffee and drank lots of milk during the years I had the cystic breast problem. I was probably ALSO taking birth-control pills during those years, so even MORE hormones were being introduced.

Whatever We're all different.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 26, 2000.

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