Apparently a lot of people are upset about all the invasive questions on the new Census "Long Form". I somehow got the short one, and don't know what most of the questions are. If they are as bad as some people think, we should start contacting our Senators and Congressmen ASAP. People shouldn't have to risk paying a $100 fine to protect their privacy. Any examples of questions, or comments from members of this august body would be appreciated. Thanks.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 15, 2000

Answers

Flash, it's NOT a $100 fine, it's $100 PER QUESTION NOT ANSWERED.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), March 15, 2000.

Well, if it is 100.00 per question, no need to worry. Having had a chance to view my sisters long form, it will take them as long to figure out how much you owe as it took you to fill the thing out in the first place.

BTW, can anyone verify its 100.00 per ???

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), March 15, 2000.

Consumer, I have been posting this information on other recent threads on this subject. It is from the official "annotated notes" on case law involving 13 USC s.221. The "notes" (probably available at your nearest major library, if not on line) cite U.S. v. Little (321 F.Supp. 388, 1971) as the authority for the following statement:

"Under this section [221] making it an offense to refuse or wilfully neglect to answer any questions on schedule submitted in connection with any census, a refusal or wilful neglect to answer any question on any schedule submitted would constitute a violation and there could be a separate violation for each unanswered question."

This would be a maximum fine, not what .gov would necessarily charge.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), March 15, 2000.

Brooks,

Thanks, hope I didnt offend you, its just that last nite my sis, self and sis in law were debating the 'what ifs' as in not answering, or not sending it back, and I misinformed them. I thought it was 100.00 for the whole enchilada....thanking you again for the info. ====dumb consumer

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), March 15, 2000.

Consumer,

That is the way I interpreted that phrase of legalese,but I am not a qualified professional.

I have known about this for quite some time and made a decision about what I personally would do with the short or long form.

I am only going to send in the number of people living in this household and that is it.

All you have to do is read the constitution,it is very plain and to the point.Congress cannot change this without an ammendment and there has been none.(TECH 32 phrases this better than I!)

What the fed is doing is bullying and coercing the American public to divulge private and important information and most will do so blindly.

It's just like algores little internet tax; he calls it a "Community Access Contribution" it's tacked every month to your telephone bill,the yearly charge is $30.00.They say it's for schools,people in rural locations,libraries etc.

To avoid this charge simply drop the long distance carrier and use one of those 11-11-123 services.(especially helpful to those with a second line for the puter)

Well anyway,that's my take and $0.02 worth.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 15, 2000.

What's the big deal is about filling out the census. Do you think it's some kind of a communist plot, or some other sinister trap from the cold war era, or a NWO plot.

I heard so much flap about the questions that I was sure it must be very detailed. I was amazed when I got it to find out how few questions are asked.

If you don't have a dozen kids, it doesn't take any time to fill out, and hell, they don't ask anything that a bright 10 year old couldn't find out in 10 minutes. What do I care if everyone in the world knows my house is paid for, or not paid for.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 15, 2000.

Geez,

Chill Gil.....just gathering info is all. As for the big deal, so you dont mind answering those personal questions, cool for you. To each his/her own, however, I saw it, and find it tooo personal. I never stated anything about a conspiracy or NWO or nothing like that, I just dont think 'we the people ' should HAVE to answer personal questions, should we choose not to.

For the record, I WOULD mind sharing if I had a second mortgage or not, let them LOOK IT UP, its pub knowledge anyhow, right?

If not, they need to MIND THEIR OWN....

Again, to each his own, but no need to get panties in a twist...

===consumer, now untwisting own panties....

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), March 15, 2000.

Thanks for the feedback folks. Would anyone mind posting some of the more offensive/invasive questions? My short form was very brief and only wanted to know the number of occupants, names, phone number, sex, age, date of birth, and race. I'm wondering if my area got all or mostly short forms because it is about 90+ percent White?

I recommend that we quickly deluge our elected officials with objections and see if we can get the Gov't to officially back down on the fines for unanswered questions. Those of us who got short forms need to support the rest who got long forms. An email or postcard is almost as effective as a longer letter. They usually put them into two piles and see which one is bigger. I'm going to start urging my friends to contact their officials immediately.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), March 15, 2000.

Received the long form yesterday.

Gilda, there are 53 questions on this form, including questions concerning medical conditions, and what I do in my leisure time.

I am not answering them. Let the census enumerators try to come to my house. I am never home anyway.

They are asking for info that is way beyond what I am willing to share.

BIG NEWS- this information IS sold to direct marketing companies-I sell mailing lists that are compiled predominantly from census data- the governmment is in the business of making money off the sale of census information.

Right now I could provide you with a mailing list of all people between the ages of 35 and 50 with incomes 25K-75K, married with children ages 0-2 and have made a mail order purchase in the last month.

I can do that mainly as a result of the census.

You decide.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 15, 2000.

Gilda, I repeat to you that I would be VERY CONTENT to answer the short form questions. Unless and until you have seen the long form, you can't appreciate what is being asked.

Consumer, I came into the office today (I work as a paralegal at a large law firm) thinking that a mild case of civil disobedience was in order. I can't tell from the judge's opinion on U.S. v. Little or the annotated notes in the statutory reference what fines were actually assessed in that or similar cases, but I have seen repeatedly in other matters a splitting of hairs as far as how an offense is defined. For instance, on environmental matters, it is common for each day of a violation to be calculated separately.

Capnfun, that particular case (U.S. v. Little) is very clear that the courts believe that the Census bureau has the authority to require you to answer all of those questions. It may not meet our definition of what is constitutional, but we *would* lose in court over it. The opinion wraps up by saying that the defendant's privacy was not unreasonably invaded by requiring answers to those questions because, after all, the information is "strictly confidential".

Flash, the types of questions I recall from skimming the long form last night were, how many toilets in the household? can you reach the top shelf? how much are your annual utility bills?

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), March 15, 2000.

Brooks,

As stated by Futureshock,The info IS NOT CONFIDENTIAL,this alone can break the back of prior precedent.

And I guess I should restate this another way.I will answer 1 and only 1 question ( how many people live in my household),I will refuse to pay any fine,PERIOD.

IMO,this is blatant government intrusion.

Also,did you read in the (U.S code) they are planning on doing another census in 2005?

Why should they take what we give up willingly?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 15, 2000.

I filled out the long form but hesitate to send it in....also i applied to be a "census worker" but after reading the form wouldn't want to ask people all the questions. It's supposed to take 44 minutes to fill out. They ask details on everyone who lives in the house, including physical/mental disabilities/ racial group/ marital/financial---They SAY its confidential, but who knows?

-- Jolene (notgivingitout@home.com), March 15, 2000.

The long form questions are really outrageous. How much money you earn, etc? I don't think so. They really have gone too far, IMHO.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), March 15, 2000.

Jolene-

read my first post.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 15, 2000.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/13/141.text.html

http://www.census.gov

-- Here you go (links@re.us), March 15, 2000.

capn fun, i'll bet you do pay the fine when imprisonment is threatened. just a guess.

futureshock said -

- BIG NEWS- this information IS sold to direct marketing companies-I sell mailing lists that are compiled predominantly from census data- the governmment is in the business of making money off the sale of census information.

would you care to substantiate this claim?

flash - what form did you get? i have D-1. question 7 for person 1 and question 5 for subsequent household members inquires as to whether the person is hispanic. is that not on yours?

-- david moore (davidmoore01@excccite.com), March 15, 2000.

David,

Wanna bet?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 15, 2000.

capnfun,

i'd prefer you save your money. it may come in handy.

anyone interested in viewing all the census forms this year, go here:

http://www.2000.census.gov/iqa/

in looking thru the FAQ's i noticed that the census bureau did bend to public pressure about the invasiveness of the questions, since the last one in 1990. so, if you're pissed, you might make it known.

-- david moore (davidmoore01@excccite.com), March 15, 2000.

OK, I apologize. Will a blanket apology do, or must I make a separate apologize to each of you. Thanks! I appreciate your kindness.

First, at first, I didn't know there was a short and long form. Once I realized there was a long form, that is what I thought I got. For the one I received had about four pages front and back. It asked if your house was paid for, birth dates, whether you rented or owned, but I didn't mind those. The rest of the pages were for how many lived at that house, with up to 8 or 10 places for that information. Hell, if I had that many I'd kick at least 6 of them out. I can't bear crowds.

N+ow I suspect that must have been the short form. No questions about bathrooms (and I will not discuss bathrooms nor body functions). No questions about shelves, and I wish they'd asked, for I certainly don't have enough.

And I wouldn't have minded telling them that our income is smaller due to this FUD crazed, doofus selling her gold mine stock just as it was soaring.

Anyway I'm sorry I accused all of you of being conspiracy nuts. But if it will make you feel any better, I did add on my form that I didn't know why they should presume that I would have that many children, or free loaders living at our house. (Just wanted to pull their chain a little.) Then I added "Have a Nice Day," and made a smiley, because I hate that silly rigamarole.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 15, 2000.

Oh, just fill out yer census, ya whiners!!! Sheesh..babies!!

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), March 15, 2000.

The Constitution of the US requires an enumeration of the population of the states. It does not require citizens to submit answers to whatever questions the government decides it wants to ask. However, the courts have decided that, so long as anonymity is provided to the individual answering the questions, the census bureau can ask what it damn well pleases.

It's sort of like getting a grant of immunity from prosecution. Once you have it, you have to answer the prosecutor. Most of the questions are asked to provide demographic material to big business.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), March 15, 2000.

But it isn't anonymous....on a talk show, today, a census taker said that even tho you don't have to put your address on the envelope, the bar code tells them where you live. This whole census thing has been the buzz of the talk shows, lately. People are irate at its intrusiveness.

-- Jo Ann (MaJo@Michiana.com), March 15, 2000.

David Moore:

What would you like to substantiate my earlier post??

I sell mailing lists every day. 30 of my lists are compiled from us census data-it is right on my rate card under source of names.

Advise what would satisfy you-I have no reason to lie.

But just to be 100% accurate, the information that is compiled is on a "block" level, and not an individual household level.

David, call InfoUsa in Nebraska tomorrow, or better, go to www.infousa.com and poke around. you will see I am correct.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 16, 2000.

Gilda, you are forgiven. (smile) Kritter said "just fill out the form you whiners", sure, why not, did you read the long form krit? Then u must be kidding... Why would anyone want/need to know what time we leave for work? Wuz up with that?

-----consumer is .... passing krit a long form....

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), March 16, 2000.

>> But it isn't anonymous....on a talk show, today, a census taker said that even tho you don't have to put your address on the envelope, the bar code tells them where you live. <<

But, in releasing the data, the census bureau doesn't correlate the data with the names of the individuals who gave it to them. This is sufficient to satisfy the courts.

However, any good statistician could use the information from the census to make very detailed inferences about you, based on just a few indicators like address, age, gender, and income bracket. This is what businesses want. They don't need a dossier on every household to figure out whether to build a fast-food joint or an upscale restaurant in your neighborhood. A statistical profile is much more efficient for their purposes anyway.

BTW, political consultants mine this data pretty heavily, too.

>> This whole census thing has been the buzz of the talk shows, lately. People are irate at its intrusiveness. <<

The same thing happened 10 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 30 years ago...

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), March 16, 2000.

futureshock,

thanks, you answered my question.

"But just to be 100% accurate, the information that is compiled is on a "block" level, and not an individual household level."

no names available. sounds like a refinement beyond zip code targeting. i don't have a problem with that nor did i mean to imply that you were lying. sorry if you took it that way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- david moore (davidmoore01@excccite.com), March 16, 2000.

David-

Sorry if I reacted-thanks for your apology-I cannot fault you for asking for verification on this board. there is a lot of "fuzzy logic".

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 16, 2000.

I know I've had or seen a link for US and State elected official's email addresses. If someone has it or can provide it would be appreciated

-- george (jones@choices.com), March 18, 2000.

For email addresses of US Representatives and Senators, see the links in the left hand column of this Library of Congress site.

For state legislators, I'd try to find the given state's web site using a web search engine.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), March 18, 2000.

For those of you that think this is "no big deal"...I got a copy of the D-2 form (Link. Here are the questions they ask:

Question 1: Name
Question 2: Household Relationship
Question 3: Sex
Question 4: Age and Date of Birth
Question 5: Hispanic or Latino
Question 6: Race
Question 7: Marital Status
Question 8a-b: School Attendance and Grade Attending
Question 9: Educational Attainment
Question 10: Ancestry or Ethnic Origin
Question 11a-c: Language Spoken Other Than English, Language, English Ability
Question 12: Place of Birth
Question 13: Citizenship
Question 14: Year of Entry
Question 15a-b: Residence 5 Years Ago and Where Lived 5 Years Ago
Question 16a-b: Disability: Seeing/Hearing and Basic Physical Activities
Question 17a-b: Disability: Mental, Self-Care, Going Outside the Home, and Work
Question 19a-c: Grandparents as Caregivers
Question 20a-c: Veteran Status, Period of Active Duty Military Service, and Years of Active Duty
Question 21: Work Last Week
Question 22a-f: Place of Work
Question 23a: Means of Transportation to Work
Question 23b: Private Vehicle Occupancy
Question 24a: Time Leaving Home to go to Work
Question 24b: Travel Time from Home to Work
Question 25a-e: Layoff from Work, Temporarily Absent from Work, Layoff Recall, Looking for Work, Availability for Work
Question 26: Year Last Worked
Question 27a-c: For Whom Did You Work, Kind of Business or Industry, Type of Business
Question 28a-b: Occupation and Occupational Duties/Activities
Question 29: Class of Worker
Question 30a-c: Worked Last Year, Weeks Worked, Hours Worked
Question 31a-h: Income
Question 32: Total Income
Question 33: Tenure
Question 34: Units in Structure
Question 35: Year Structure Built
Question 36: Year Householder Moved In
Question 37: Rooms
Question 38: Number of Bedrooms
Question 39: Plumbing Facilities
Question 40: Kitchen Facilities
Question 41: Telephone Service
Question 42: House Heating Fuel
Question 43: Number of Automobiles, Vans, and Trucks
Question 44a: Business or Medical Office
Question 44b: Acreage
Question 44c: Sale of Agricultural Products
Question 45a-d: Annual Cost of Utilities
Question 46a: Rent
Question 46b: Meals Included in Rent
Question 47a: Mortgage
Question 47b: Mortgage Payment
Question 47c: Mortgage Includes Real Estate Taxes
Question 47d: Mortgage Includes Fire, Hazard, Or Flood Insurance
Question 48a: Second Mortgage and Home Equity Loan
Question 48b: Second Mortgage and Home Equity Loan Payment
Question 49: Real Estate Taxes
Question 50: Cost of Insurance
Question 51: Property Value
Question 52: Condominium and Condominium Fee
Question 53a-b: Mobile Home Installment Loan and Mobile Home Costs

Now some of you may think this is not invasive, but you are asleep at the wheel if you think that. Since WHEN is it .gov's business when I leave for work, or how I get there? Where the last place was I made money?

I'm telling 'em to take a flying leap!

-- FedUp (with@fed.gov), March 20, 2000.

First, let me point out that there is no constitutional restriction prohibitng the federal government from asking non-enumeration questions at the same time and on the same form as the enumeration questions. So those who are arguing that the inclusion of non-enumeration questions are unconstitutional are on the wrong path.

That's not to say that there might be other, valid reasons for objecting to some questions. Just don't expect to get anywhere in court by pointing to the enumeration provision as a basis for not answering the other questions.

Also, insofar as the government is entitled to require answers to other questions (setting aside the exact extent of that entitlement for the moment), it is a substantial savings of taxpayer money to ask them at the same time, on the same form(s), as the enumeration census.

Note that the last clause of Article 1, Section 8 entitles Congress to make laws (such as asking questions and reqiiring answers) that are "necessary and proper" for carrying out its other specified powers. If you don't like being asked about your racial or ethnic group or your income, then blame the laws that require information about such things, not on the omission of such subjects from the enumeration provision.

And now to specific responses:

- - - -

capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com),

>All you have to do is read the constitution,it is very plain and to the point.Congress cannot change this without an ammendment and there has been none.

Better re-read it -- it's even plainer than you think. You seem to have conjured up a restriction on Congress's power that isn't actually there.

>I will refuse to pay any fine,PERIOD.

Okay. Get a good lawyer.

>IMO,this is blatant government intrusion.

Be sure to protest about the actual laws authorizing the questions, not the constitutional enumeration provision.

- - - -

consumer (shh@aol.com),

>I just dont think 'we the people ' should HAVE to answer personal questions, should we choose not to.

Fine with me. But I'd advise aiming your complaints at the laws that require such questions, not the census.

- - - -

Flash (flash@flash.hq),

>I recommend that we quickly deluge our elected officials with objections and see if we can get the Gov't to officially back down on the fines for unanswered questions.

That's just going to rile the officials and waste staff time, unless you research the legal basis for the questions more than the other prominent protesters in the forum seems to have done.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), March 20, 2000.