***NEW BANS VOTE-ALL MARPERS PLEASE RESPOND**greenspun.com : LUSENET : MAME Action Replay : One Thread
All right, here's the vote. These games/techniques are in addition to the ones listed at the RULES/BANNED TECHNIQUES/BANNED GAMES pages, and all listed are suggestions from fellow MARPers. FAX did take part in a previous vote, but it seems that with 17 firsts in various categories of it now, popular sentiment towards it has deteriorated since the last vote, and several players have requested it be banned, including a few of the current first place holders. Bubble Bobble and Rainbow Islands will NOT be included in this vote, as the debate continues about the secret codes in these games. Finally, in the interim since the last vote, Fast Lane has been temporarily banned, and Turbo is not yet ready to be removed from the list (still some collision detection issues)
Anyway, to the voting.
Games, then reason for potential ban:
FAX (fax, all categories)- (too easy, repetitive questions, deliberate pausing (currently 4-way tie for first in each category at maximum 85300 points))
OFF THE WALL (SENTE) (otwalls)- (too easy (currently 13-way tie for first at maximum 11 points)
Techniques, then reason for potential ban:
ROBOCOP (all versions)- Elevator point leeching (for a full description of the trick, please download Mark Longridge's hints&tricks .dat file. It basically consists of staying on an elevator at a certain spot while your score accumulates)
THE NEW ZEALAND STORY (all versions)- A warp point on 2-1 allows you to remain in one spot and wipe out enough enemies in one spot to get a bonus life before dying from timeout. Trick can potentially be used infinitely. If needed, an .inp will be posted showing this trick, or you can request it from me via e-mail (Alex Weir sent one out a number of months ago demonstarting this trick))
That's it. Happy voting.
-- Q.T.Quazar (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 13, 2000
Ok, here goes... FAX: If it's so easy, then how is anyone being disadvantaged if anyone can get maximum points on it? I'll vote no, unless there is a serious disk space issue (not likely).
OFF THE WALL: Don't know the game, can't really comment.
ROBOCOP: Yep, ban the technique. It is dead boring waiting two minutes while your points accumulate quickly.
THE NZ STORY: Same thing, dead boring to watch. Ban it.
-- Barry Rodewald (email@example.com), March 14, 2000.
My votes with some reasons follow. I sincerely hope that Bubble Bobble & Rainbow Islands go to a vote soon too.
Don't ban the game but insist all recordings be submitted in m35tg3 which disables pausing. If people want the points they have to still earn their stripes with the game - even if it is easy by 'most peoples standards'. 'Too easy' is a relative term with everyone having a different view. I'd be interested in how many people can actually get the max score in real time.
OFF THE WALL
Don't ban the game. Insist that all games are played on the hardest 'pro' setting - this is selected at the start of the game. Define the final score to be the difference between your score and the computer - e.g. 11 to 3 would give a score of 8. This will spread out the current leaders currently all on 11.
ROBOCOP (all versions) & THE NEW ZEALAND STORY (all versions).
Ban both techniques. Neither exhibits game mastery. TNZS trick can be repeated ad nauseum - life is too short. Keep one sample inp of each in the tricks/weird/Easter Eggs page to exhibit the leeching techniques (and as a historical record).
-- Tim Morrow (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 14, 2000.
FAX > BAN - Mapping out answers by reptitive questions Off the Wall > Modify - Read tim's response Robocop > BAN TNZS > BAN
Previous Votes Alien Syndrome (A)> BAN Bosconian > BAN
-- Lord AxE (email@example.com), March 14, 2000.
Ehh...lets see. FAX - never played it , but if theres a serious mis-use of the pause button,well then I agree with Tim..i.e use of TG MAME only for this game.
OFF THE WALL - never played it , and after having a quick look at it, don`t particularly want to. The argument is that its` too easy ? It isn`t really the games fault. If it`s too easy, well then it`s easy for everyone ? Isn`t Pong a similar scenario ? I`ll abstain from this one.
TNZS- Definitely ban this technique as it`s possible to stay alive infinitely and amass a huge score ( I got 7m before doing this..ZZZZZZ)
ROBOCOP- Mmm, I`m slightly biased here as I currently have the top score on this, although let me state that I`m not worried about losing any LB points here. My argument to keep this technique is as follows: 1) Unlike GnG or TNZS, you can`t stay ( leech ) infinitely. You have a time limit for each level, so basically by using this technique , you are utilising the time allowed to get as much score as possible.( I think the maximum time to complete a whole game is around 45mins )
2) The technique was available in the arcades and isn`t a MAME bug
3) Some skill is involved in timing yourself to the last second, before going on to clear the level and amassing as much score as time will allow.
4) The current TG record ( arcade ) is 2m+ , so therefore Twin Galaxies accept scores using this method.
And if anyone wants to see the technique done on 3 different levels ( 3,4,and 6 ) and also another type of leeching ( not as much score- wise,but still gets you an extra 120k or so ), download my 5m score to see how it`s done.
Oh, QT, I`ll send you info on a cheat on Q-Bert which should be definitely banned ( check your e-mail ). It`s a long explanation , so I won`t post it here.
And that concludes the voting from the Irish Jury.........
-- Alex Weir (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 14, 2000.
Better do this again.
FAX [BAN] - The questions come up the same way between each recording.
Off the Wall [BAN/Modify] - The top score of 11 is not that hard to reach as 13 players have reach it.
ROBOCOP [BAN] - Complete cheese. Sitting there gaining score while doing nothing.
TNZS [BAN] - Seems to much like Ghosts 'n Goblin. Where it take skill to reach a point. Then doing same thing over and over again. Gaining enough score to get a extra man then dying.
Alien Syndrom (A) [BAN] - Gaining three men for the price of one is not good.
Bosconian/Naughty Boy/Scion [BAN] - A player should try and complete the level at hand.
Vulgus/Roc 'n Rope [BAN] - Read TNZS.
-- Lord AxE (email@example.com), March 14, 2000.
Ban, ban, ban, and ban.
Fear the righteous indignation of my elitism!
-- Brian McLean (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 15, 2000.
Fax: With repetitive questions, get rid of it. Otwalls: In this game playing defense is not too hard and can be a judge of skill. Subtract for score. Robocop and Tzns: Stop the leeching
MARP is for showing skill, not cheese.
-- Ray Atkinson (email@example.com), March 15, 2000.
OK... I guess I should vote - so here we go...
FAX - too easy - throw it out.
Off The Wall - either throw it out or use the most difficult setting - high score minus low.
Robocop and TNZS - ban it. Period.
I know... short answers :)
-- Gameboy9 (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 15, 2000.
FAX: If the answers/questions are the same for each game each time, then ban.
OTW: score minus opponent_score, or ban. Either ways OK for me. I prefer subtracting the opponents score for most sports type games.
The rest: No leaching!
-- Dave Kaupp (email@example.com), March 15, 2000.
FAX : ban OFF THE WALL : ban ROBOCOP : ban THE NEW ZEALAND STORY : ban
-- lagavulin (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 17, 2000.
To ban 2p games or broken games : ok (btw I have 2 more broken games : dday and chplft)
I'm not so enthusiastic to ban games which are working well . I prefer to have on marp the largest number of different games as possible (instead of the "clones prolification")[btw the erasure of goldstar hasn't been officially voted ... so I propose a vote in another thread]
So here is my vote : FAX : keep it .. but just unsplit it (1 entry is enough) OTWALLS : keep it ... but with a "goal-average" system score (as we should also do on all soccer games)
BANNED TECHNICS : (the only game I know is vulgus)... ban extralife leeching for vulgus ; I will study other games later
-- Phil (email@example.com), March 18, 2000.
FAX: don't ban - if people really want to spend the time learning the order of the questions this is not really much different to learning how to play say Gyruss ad infinitem. Pausing is a different issue and I'm not sure how we approach this save for enforcing use of a "pause-disabled" version of Mame.
OFF THE WALL - don't ban. Once again being too easy is a relative term that is not to my mind a reason for banning - or I could argue that Gyruss is too easy relatively speaking. ;-)
Robocop, TNZS - BAN BAN BAN.
-- BeeJay (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 20, 2000.
The first two: Ban the games. The other two: Ban the techniques.
Cheers, Ben Jos.
-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (email@example.com), March 20, 2000.
FAX- delete all current scores, then require all subsequent submissions be made with the latest TG version of MAME.
Off The Wall- leave it...just another Easter egg 100-pointer for new MARPers to find. ;)
Robocop and TNZS...ban the techniques.
-- JoustGod (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 20, 2000.
Fax - Unsplit, ban the pause (use Tg version or whatever) OFF THE WALL : Don4t ban TNZS, ROBOCOP : ban the games.
-- German Krol (email@example.com), March 20, 2000.
FAX - Ban the game. Too many players already know the answers.
Off the Wall - Ban the game.
Robocop - Keep. I have a couple of reasons for this one.
1) Even though it is point leeching, you really don't get anything out of it except a nice hi score.
2) The game is timed so you can't stay leeching forever.
3) You don't get anything special out of it. The are no extra lives given. You only have 1 life. That's it. You die, game over.
If your gonna ban this technique, the maybe consider banning another technique from Robocop. On the last stage, at the very end of the game, You can kill the giant robot (forgot the name of it) with 1 shot with the laser. All you need to do is Have 1 shot left with the laser, then when the robot comes out, jump up and shoot it and keep firing at it. It;s health will drain like water going down a drain pipe.
New Zealand Story - Ban the technique. Gives you too much advantage.
-- Matthew Neja (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 20, 2000.
Here are my votes.
1) Fax: Ban. Only because too many players take advantage of using the pause key which caused too much contreversy on other games where it should be ok to use.
2) Off the Wall: Do not ban. If this is the Arkanoid type game with the paddles on the side of the screen instead of on the bottom, this game should not be banned, I have no reason to think it's 'just too easy' (then again, I could be talking about the wrong game).
3) Robocopp: DO NOT BAN. My reason is very well explained by another player who I cannot remember at the moment. The trick does not put you "in harms way" like a game like points leaching on Contra. All it does is just boost up the total score by the ending which is nice to see a much higher score for some. Walter Day told me back some time ago, he said, "If there is a trick in a game that EVERYONE has access to and does NOT put you in harms way, (contra, NZ Story, or a trick to give you unlimited men, ect) then it is ok to use it".
4) New Zealand Story: Ban it. I know nothing about this game, but from what I've read about it, it's no different then what you can do in Contra. Ban it.
Regards, Steve Krogman
-- stephen krogman (email@example.com), March 20, 2000.
Fax : Ban
Off the Walls : yeah krog, i thought it was the arkanoid game too but it's not, it's a game not unlike "spiker" which has the same pong like play ability, easy to get a perfect game. I say ban it because the only reason people play it is to get 100 pts, not to show off their great game play.
TNZS : Ban technique
Robocop : Ban technique, finding bugs isn't gameplay
When recordings are "banned" we should keep recordings but just zero out leaderboard totals, because they are usefull to know for judges and for historic purposes.
-- Chad (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 21, 2000.
Robocop: If this technique damages gameplay, it should be banned. Since there is a timer, KEEP the TECHNIQUE. And furthermore if TG- scores are made using that, we should be able to compete with those scores. Has not anyone used "to the last second" -technique on Ghouls'n'Ghosts at T3?
I haven't played those other games(and couldn't care less of leaderboard points)so that's all.
ps. checkout at mamenavi.com ninjakid2 recording. The game is played to the very end, allthough with zillion men but anyway.
-- Tommi (email@example.com), March 21, 2000.
FAX: Keep (require Tournament MAME, all quiz games should have this); Off the Wall: Keep (require PRO, posted score = player - computer); Robocop & TNZS: Ban technique for both games--player is not advancing through level and realizes material gains at no risk, points and man respectively)
-- Pat (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 21, 2000.
Fax: Ban it - it's crap :)
Off the Wall - require player-cpu score
Robocop: only ban it because it took Alex ages to find it :)
TNZS: ban it: that's leeching at its worst!
-- Dean Ryan (email@example.com), March 22, 2000.
My apologies. Due to new information from Steve Krogman and Alex Weir, Robocop will be pulled from the vote. Robocop is a timed game, with no bonus lives, and therefore the leeching is permissible, as time WILL continue to run down. I misrepresented the game for the vote. Again, sorry, and results about the other three questionables will be posted tomorrow.
-- Q.T.Quazar (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 22, 2000.
OK, voting is finished (results were not posted because I wa shaving connection problems before last night) Here is the status:
Fax: Banned (Approx. 2/3 were for banning) Reason: Question order does not change seems to be the reason for those wanting to ban, and TG will not solve this (it particularly won't solve it because people can slow down their systems before questions if they know the answers)
Otwalls: Modified (Approx 1/2 were for banning) Modification: Game must now be played at hardest difficulty, with your score minus opponent's score as the score for submission. If this does not resolve the current deadlock, the game will become banned.
Robocop: Removed from the vote due to new information.
TNZS: (unanimous for banning) Technique is banned. Leeching is permissible at any leech point during one life only.
Thanks to everyone for coming out. I'll update the banned techniques page soon!
-- Q.T.Quazar (email@example.com), March 28, 2000.
You may wanna correct the last bit, i.e "Leeching is permissible at any leech point during one life only. "
With the technique I showed you , it`s possible to leech indefinitely on one man. The only way you`ll die is by pure carelessness.
As this technique is basically going around in a 'loop', a player should only be allowed use this 'loop' ONCE PER GAME. I think you`ll ( and others ) will agree ?
-- Alex Weir (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 28, 2000.