Australians turned in 700,000 firearms costing the Government $500 Million.

Now one year later....

Homicides are up 3.2%, Assaults up 8.6%, Armed robberies up 44%, Gun related homicides in the State of Victoria up 300%.

Prior to gun confiscation armed robberies and assaults over the last 25 years had dropped significantly throughout the country. Australian Government had promised safety in return for their sacrifice. Now their leaders tell Autralians they have to wait longer for safety. HOW MUCH LONGER? This proves all Governments lie to their people.

DO NOT EVER GIVE UP YOUR GUNS, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

-- ... (...@...com), March 12, 2000

Answers

I think I am beginning to see the point of anti-gun control.

But what do you do in the case of the 6 year old child finding a gun lying around the house and knowing how to use it. How do you keep this from happening?

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

Cin,

You instruct your children. I grew up as did my siblings with guns, and my children are growing up with guns. None of us have committed ANY crimes with guns. I am as sure as anything my children won't commit any crimes with guns. They have been taught to NOT TOUCH guns when small, and RESPONSIBILITY when bigger.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 12, 2000.

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

Frank, I understand what you're saying but, how much good does it do to tell a child not to touch something. From my experience, not much. And that, to me, is taking a really big chance.

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

35 innocent civilians died at Port Arthur on 28 April 1996. That's about 4 years ago and afterwards was the national gun-buy back.

Four years on we have more private weapon ownership than before Port Arthur. We also have a groundswell training regime from which we are fielding a very competitive Olympic shooting squad in every discipline.

Politically this issue is a question of democracy that can degenerate into oppression unless the conditions for its existence are understood and defended. The only valid test of democracy must be based on the existence of individual liberty and not the other way around.

This debate can only be conducted in an atmosphere of trust. That any trust exists between us is a wonder after the heavy jackbooted approach following Port Arthur. Rest assured that many issues are involved next election time. This one remaind on the boil.

Good night.

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), March 12, 2000.

Cin,

Do you have kids? There's a difference between saying "do not touch" like "don't touch that cookie", and "do not touch" like "don't stick your finger (or a fork) in that electrical outlet". I don't know of many kids who stick things in outlets because their parents REALLY tell them not to. The same thing works with guns. You just need to let your kids know that this is REALLY important.

Of course in a country with 275 million people, a "once in a million" event can make the T.V. news 275 times a year ;-)

Respectfully,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 12, 2000.

Cin,

What has helped my kids understand that they aren't to handle weapons with adult supervision is letting them help field dress their dad's deer over the last several yrs. Nothing explains what happens when flesh and bullets collide quite like field dressing. They all had a lot more respect for "their" gun (be it BB or shotgun) when they were done then they did before. (My husband has taken the kids squirrel hunting with BB guns so that they see that even they are not harmless and to help them understand the proper way to handle guns. Amazing the difference that day made with each one of them.)

We discovered that the TV and video games lead each of them to believe that dead wasn't really dead. This is what scares me the most. We have always been careful about what they watched/played, but evidently we weren't quite careful enough. If we didn't catch this until the last yr or so, how many other parents don't realize this that aren't paying attention to what their kids watch/play? This may actually be the biggest problem - parents don't know what their kids are doing.

Janette

-- me (me@me.com), March 12, 2000.

I realize that I was raised in a bygone era. Things have changed so radically that I'm totally out of the loop when it comes to *today's" opinions concerning child rearing. But concerning guns, I too grew up with guns in the house, and I was told in no uncertain terms that to touch one of them was to suffer swift and merciless justice. I knew what that meant, and I didn't touch.

People didn't worry so much about a child's self-esteem back then. But too, as one sociologist said, "Children aren't suffering from lack of self-esteem, they are suffering from inflated ideas of their own self-esteem. They feel they are justified in committing the most reprehensible acts." Read the book, "Permissive Parents, Violent Children." It's out of print, but is probably luriking in a used book store. BTW, my parents would not get a TV until I left home for fear it would interfere with my reading, and practicing the piano.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 12, 2000.

cin,

There is not much that anyone can do to stop what happened in the case of that 6 year old, other than remove him from the home. His parents were criminals. Criminals who left stolen guns lying around the house within easy reach of 6 year olds.

But, for regular folks, studies have proven that children who are exposed to guns in a responsible manner, and who are taught about what they can do to people, are FAR LESS likely to use those guns to hurt someone. It is the children who have never actually seen a real gun before who are most likely to pick them up and "play" with them.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), March 12, 2000.

For whatever reason, I've always (and to a great extent still do) given Australians a lot of respect for having a good bit of common sense. But when it came to their giving up their guns. Well, we all make mistakes. I felt they were nuts! But, it was their business, not mine.

I seriously doubt that any major effort will be made to get our guns. There's too many of them, and the people won't stand for it. That includes me.

Kids and guns? There's always one word missing or passed over on this topic, and that word is "PARENTS." This group of people seem to have their own Public Relations firm handling their excuses. The first and most used is, "...I didn't know." Or, then comes, "...well, can't watch them all the time." The latest is, "...it's the television and movies." An old stand-by is that MY child would never do that, and whoever said he/she did is lying. Currently, the big out is, "...well, we both work." Now, think about this last one for a while. Both parents have worked in one fashion or another for thousands of years, but this work excuse seems to have become fashionable for the moment.

It would seem that whatever children are doing it's someone elses fault, responsibility, and the parent is the innocent victim of these outside influences on their children. Bull Shit! Children are the responsibility of their parents. The buck stops where it started, with the parents!

Being semi-raised on a farm as a kid, there was never a neighbors house (including the one I was in) that didn't have a rifle or two leaning up by the door. For what? It was for foxes, a wolf, skunks, or whatever else might come along to get the livestock. I knew as did my peers, to touch any gun meant sudden death. They were not to be touched under any circumstances. Oddly enough, they weren't.

Back in the city, we saw every gangster movie Hollywod turned out. But, we knew the difference between movies and real life. Why did we know all this? Because our parent(s) told us, and we weren't all that dumb.

There's nothing wrong with guns. But there is plenty wrong with parents and their kids that are allowed to run loose without any supervision or parental teaching. It isn't up to anyone to raise a child other than the parent.

I hope Australians are quietly getting their guns back. One of the first moves Hitler made was to take the guns away from the German people. Got the message?

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), March 12, 2000.

Richard, exactly! We knew the difference between movies and real life. Gawwwwd, I can't begin to tell you how many Indians I saw blown away when I was a kid watching westerns. And all those movies about the mobsters wholesale slaughter. Yep we knew it was a movie. Yep it happened, but we didn't do it. Our parents meant busines; we knew to leave the gus alone! And the guns stood by the door and you knew it could kill. End of story.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 12, 2000.

If a 6-year-old has access to a gun then the parents should be arrested for stupidity.

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

Someone asaid "I seriously doubt that any major effort will be made to get our guns. There's too many of them, and the people won't stand for it. That includes me. "

Think again. Already happening in Kalifornia. Also "handgun Registration Bill" has been intro'd in US Senate, Feb 24, currently in Sen finance committee

-- LSRY2K (admin@lsry2k.net), March 12, 2000.

Thank you everyone for some really good, thought-provoking posts. =o)

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

I've had guns since age 13. Bought my first rifle (a Ruger 10/22) at age 18, and my first pistol (Colt .45 1911) at age 21. So far, 20+ years later, I've managed to NOT kill or maim anyone. (As a matter of fact, Ted Kennedy's CAR has killed more people than my guns).

My children were taught about guns from age 3. They were allowed to handle (unloaded) guns at age 4, and taken to the range (to WATCH) at age 6. They were taught safe handling from day one, and never, not ONE TIME, ever touched a gun in the house, since there was no "mystery" about them.

They were taught how to check ANY gun to make sure it was unloaded, and how to clear the ammo from a loaded gun. They were also taught to NEVER point the weapon at anyone, and NEVER put a finger into the trigger guard.

These things were taught starting when they were about 4 years old. We never had a problem. Ever. You know, there really IS no substitute for PARENTS taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to teach their children what they must know to make it in the adult world. Too bad that most parents today are proud of abdicating that responsibility to the State.

A few points to consider:

Gun control is NOT about guns, nor is it about CRIME. It's about CONTROL.

Gun Control: The propostion that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is preferable to allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.

Regardless of what the "anti" crowd might say, the 2nd Amendment is quite specific: "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If you choose to substitute the word "GORVERNMENT" in place of PEOPLE in the 2nd, you must also do it in EVERY OTHER AMENDMENT.

The ONLY way to get rid of ALL guns in America is to create and install a Totalitarian form of government, with unlimited police powers over your lives. Is that REALLY what you people want? Hmmmm?

Think about it....

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), March 12, 2000.

Look at the recent research, guns used more than 2,000,000 times a year for self-defense and crime rates drop when concealed carry laws are passed. Look at Austrailia and England, crime rates increase with guns gone. Look at the Swiss, everyone armed and one of the lowest crime rates. All the facts show conclusively that the use of firearms save more people than otherwise. A person who still wants guns taken away from us HAS to be either stupid, insane or evil. Are there any other choices? Stupid because the facts cannot be argued any longer. Insane if they cannot accept the facts. Evil if they accept the facts and still want the guns taken.

Governments have killed more of their own citizens this century than have been killed in all the wars. What is their real reason for wanting "gun control"?

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

"They were taught safe handling from day one, and never, not ONE TIME, ever touched a gun in the house, since there was no "mystery" about them."

Mystery is what it's all about with kids and guns. Think about scissors, knives, garbage disposals. Cars even. Everyone of these items are potentially killers. What do we do with them when we have young kids? We teach the kids how to safely handle the scissors and knives, show them how dangerous they are. We don't ban these items in the home. Same thing with cars. We keep it locked, but we also forbid the kids to play inside them alone. A gun should be out of the reach of toddlers just as those knives, scissors and household chemicals should be.

-- Me (---@---.---), March 12, 2000.

They'll get my gun out of my cold, dead hand.

~*~

-- Laua (Ladylogic@...), March 12, 2000.

actually there are many ways to keep guns from children and i would imagine many responsible gun owners use them. There are trigger locks that require a key to be able to fire the gun. next, there are locked (can be with keys/combinations) gun cabinets and safes in which you can put the gun.

i wonder how many of these guns used in the incidents that the media likes to publish are actually legal guns. somehow i think they forget to mention this bit of information.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), March 12, 2000.

TT,

They don't forget, they intentionally leave that info out. They can't afford any positive info to make it to JQPublic.

-- Powder (Powder@keg.com), March 14, 2000.

Dennis:

You said: "We never had a problem. Ever."

REALLY, Dennis? Did you just lie to ME when you told me the story of your oldest son, or are you lying now on this forum?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 14, 2000.

what story? do tell

-- cin (cinlooo@aol.com), March 15, 2000.