I am reading a good book right now called, _Eating the Elephant_. It is about church growth. In one of the sections he addresses expectation levels that congregations have of preachers. He took a poll of his church leaders where he served and asked them what they thought the preacher should spend (in terms of hours) in each category. After he polled them he added them up and got an average. His church expected him to be working 115 hours a week...leaving eight hours to spend with his family and live his own life. I find it very interesting.

Because of reading it, I polled my elders in the same categories and came up with an average of 66 hours a week which means to me they hold very realistic expectations of me. Here are the categories...what do you think it should break down to. Humor me on this, I know all the stuff about the preacher's job is more than a job, but just assess through what you think should be the basic amount of time "a" preacher should spend in these areas:

Prayer ___ Sermon Preparation ___ Outreach Visitation ___ Counseling ___ Hospital and nursing home visits ___ General Home Visits ___ Administration functions ___ Community Involvement ___ Fellowship with other preachers and churches ___ Church Meetings ___ Actual time Preaching and Teaching ___ Other "stuff" ___

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2000

Answers

Michael.....

At this point, I'm interested in the statement that you feel "66 hours is realistic."

I consider that number.....unrealistic.

I'm not going to breakdown the time the way you want. Here's why.

For instance, sermon preparation. Sometimes I know in 10 minutes what I'm going to say.

Are you appalled at that?? Shouldn't be. I've spent 11 years in school. Other weeks it may take 2 or 3 hours per sermon. It seems to me that the hardest part is not what to say, but how to say it (i.e., finding good illustrations, etc.)

Here is the way I approach my work. My service for the Lord begins after my 40th hour. Previous to that, I've simply done what each of my elders have done. My real service for the Lord begins after that as that is what they do. Their service for the Lord begins after their 40 hour week.

Anyway, I purposely keep my time to around 50-55 hours. I take my day off without fail.

Like I said before, I've got 24 more years to go.....there's no reason to burn myself out along the way.....and lose my family in the mean time.

Here's another tidbit I learned in graduate school. Why work hard, when you can work smart?? Good administrative skills most often result in less hours spent and with more productivity.

BTW....I would suggest working out of your home too. Even major corporations are realizing the employee advantages of doing such and allowing more and more of their employees to work out of their home. That's why I have two computers......one in my office and one in my den. I e-mail my work back and forth. It allows me interaction with the family while at the same time allows me to get work done.

The computer age has changed the way we work as well.

I've got to admit....in my 18 years of ministry, without fail the elders I have worked with were more interested in productivity.....rather than clock punching.

I did have an elder in my first ministry who once made a wise crack and said, "I think we ought to pay preachers by the hour."

I begged him to do it....and to make sure I get the same benefits other hourly workers get (i.e., time and 1/2 for overtime and double time on holidays). I told him I'd break the church in a year. He laughed and said...."Not a good idea."

Sorry I can't help you Michael.....I guess I just don't look at it as an hourly thing. And really, it would be difficult to even give generalities.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2000

Marc,

Mark didn't want to answer for me.....BUT HE SURE DID A FINE JOB!! LOL

Maybe that has something to with the fact that Mark was one of my elders for two years, and then my associate for 1 1/2 years. Hmmmmmm.....that's dangerous when people think that much alike.

Michael.....you are very correct. You must gauge your performance to what the expectations of the leadership is. That either comes from direct discussions....or just a feel. Personally, I would not work with an eldership that required me to work 66 hours every week. However, I think you hit rightly upon something when you point out....sometimes 66.....sometimes 41. It all averages out.

Someone asked the question about measuring productivity. I think that again comes to what the leadership expects. Personally, I would not work with an eldership that placed "numbers" expectations. When we try to do that, we use worldly "CEO" type standards IMHO.

Each church has to decide if "things are getting done." For instance, how do you measure what I did so far today?? My day started off with a new copier demonstration, interuppted by a phone call from an elderly member who needed me to come over ASAP so she could show me some things she wanted some boys in the youth group to do in her yard. After that, I was back at the copier demo....and then helping the secretary weed out what we had heard.

I mean seriously, how do you catergorize that?? Was it a productive morning or not?? I don't know. But it's what had to be done.

Which is another excellent point Mark W. brought out.....each church is unique. I'm in my fourth pulpit....and in no way are they in anyways similar to my previous three.

Since churches are made up of different people, I guess these differences should not be surprising.

When it comes to ministry, I guess my motto is borrowed from NIKE....."Just Do It!"

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Nate.....

On average I start my day sometime between 4-6 AM. By noon....I've just about put in a full day. Couple hours of afternoon calling and I'm on my way to the woods by 3 PM.

Add my day off.....and 4 weeks of vacation a year....plenty of time to hunt.

Turkey season starts in a few weeks. It's broad daylight here in Indiana by 5 AM. So that means I will be in the woods by 4 AM.

Being in the office by 8:30.....I still get in a good four hour hunt.

A matter of priorities....and in my house...hunting is a priority!!

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

If we really want to get down to it... ministers are like many doctors, we may not be in the office, but we are on a 24 hour on call status and have to go through many sleepless nights at the bed side of the terminally ill or someone in a car accident.

-- Anonymous, March 09, 2000

Danny,

What exactly did you mean by your statement, "My service for the Lord begins after my 40th hour."?

What do you do in these 40 hours?

Then, after that, what do you do in the additional 10-15 hours that you consider "real service for the Lord?"

I am a young preacher struggling with what the best use of my time is and would appriciate your comments as well as others.

I agree that it is not an "hourly" job. Yet, it is nice to have guidlines.

Thank you- Marc

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Marc,

I won't preclude to answer for Danny, but I know where he is coming from. The 1st 40 hours is his job - he committed himself to his elders and God to do that work (he is just fortunate to have a "job" that he likes and serves the Lord's purpose at the same time). Since most church elders put in their 40 hours at some job, he considers himself no different than they. And these 40 hours are "all inclusive" as far as what is done in that time frame - prayer, study, writing, visiting, scheduling, and maybe even some family time (after all the preacher's family needs ministering-to as much as anyone else).

Then anything over those 1st 40 hours becomes "service work". It is unpaid and done for the service of the King. These days, after hours effort is a must because most homes & couples work and therefore cannot be visited, counseled, etc. until after 6:00pm.

As an analogy, you might say the 1st 40 hours is like a tithe (a requirement to fulfill), and anything above that is an offering (giving above and beyond in order to serve the Lord according to one's "calling").

As far as making the most of your time, everybody's circumstances are different. One congregation may require more personal visitations, while another needs more group activities scheduled. One church may need to focus on training it's current leadership, while another may need to focus on developing those who would in the future become leaders. That is something you have to assess both personally and communally with your Elders.

The best advice I can give concerning time is this - constantly work to improve your prayer life and study time. I figure that the bare minimums in this area are at least 1 hour of prayer time each day (not necessarily all at one time) and at least 2 - 3 hours of study time each day which can, though not necessarily, include meditations and Class & Sermon preparation time.

For any more guidelines, I would sit and have a "heart-to-heart" with your Elders and Staff. This way, common goals and expections can be established for all the leadership - Such will make your life as a preacher Much Easier.

Hope this helps.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Now Danny...I said I didn't want those kind of answers (you know the ones that make me feel bad for asking the question). I am in agreement with you on this. I don't have a problem with 66 hours, though. I, like you, feel that my first 40 hours is a simple match of the work of my elders, the time above and beyond that is to match what amount of commitment they have to us here at the church too. And, honestly some weeks 66 hours is very realistic. BUT, some weeks 41 hours is realistic too.

I think there is value in the exercise, especially with your elders, to guage what type of expectation level they hold of you. It would be a sad thing to think that you feel comfortable with 50-55 hours a week and they think you should be at 75-80 hours a week. I am not saying that is the case, but that is why the exercise is a valid one. What do they expect of you.

I should of known that I couldn't get preachers to write down their own estimates on this one...we begin debating it's value. Now if you can peg yourself down on some estimates of time, just figure these categories on an average week.

Danny, the sermon prep time doesn't shock me. I have done everything from a Saturday night special (where I put in approx. 5 hours) and then have the sermon be great to putting in eight hours and having it done by Wednesday and then having the sermon flop off the end of the pulpit. I've even stole some good ones that didn't take any time at all!!!! HA! (You've heard the old saying haven't you? All work and no plagiarism makes Jack a dull preacher!)

But on average, we have our routines that we get into and some things happen on Monday through Thursday that we can typically count on. And use that as a base to give an estimate of these figures.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Is it a reality that your elders put in only 40 hours a week at their jobs? In my experience most salaried employees are putting in around the 50-55 mark. I'm not sure it is going "above and beyond" (the current cultural norm) to put in 50 hours. Of course, as someone stated, it is more "productivity" than hours that counts (whether in secular work or ministry). Now, how is "productivity" defined in the ministry?

P.S. The 'Mr.' is included just to make sure that any 'gender bias' is aimed at the right sex.... :-) Yes, I have been reading the other threads! (First time to post though, so take it easy!)

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Robin:

Contrary to what some have said, we are a very easy-going bunch around here. : )

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

I am reading this with interest. I am right now preparing a Bi- Vocational Ministry Leadership workshop, and I am planning to cover many of these same areas. (If you live near southwestern Oklahoma, and want more info on it, please email me, because I think it is inappropriate to do anything which could be misunderstood as advertising here.)

Danny, your concept of beyond 40 hours is intreguing to me, because that is exactly what someone who is bi-vocational does. Time management and planning is important (wise stewardship). I am interested in others' answers to this thread.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Hi, All! I wanted to further explain what I meant by my 'productivity' question. As an aside: I am not preacher... but I have been on a couple of 'Pulpit Committees'. Do you guys have any written expectations of you from the congregation? Do you have any type of 'review' process to go over how things are going? Or, are all of those things in Michael's original question just a 'given'?

And, Sam, I wasn't only going by what other's had said about what had been said.... but by what had BEEN said. :-) Say it fast 3 times!!!

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Danny,

Looks like you need a "me" to keep those phone calls off your back and make copier decisions for you, and to generally pick up the slack to get things done so you can sit back and study for your sermons. Lessee, that's 3 sermons a week at 5 minutes each, hmmm, carry the 1... hey, that's a whole un-interupted 15 minutes per week! You could be writing sermons for other preachers too!!! :-S (Now of course my tongue is cemented to the inside of my cheek and I am being completely facetious... just a clarifyer lest anyone think I am breaking down on my brother in other than good clean fun!)By the way, just how long DOES it take to download a sermon from www.Sermon- Central.com?

I love not interupting Dave so I can tell a salesman that we aren't interested in whatever product he/she is selling on the phone.... and that if we really needed his/her product that we would have called him/her and it would have been un-neccessary to place that expensive long-distance phone call to hear me say just that. (all with a smile on my face of course!) Has anyone else noticed the increase on the insistance of Salesmen/ladies/(persons)to speak with the "Pastor"?

I truly beleive that people have NO IDEA how much time it takes for you guys to do your jobs... anytime someone asks me how much we are paying the minister (in ref. to not having to work for a living) I challenge them to spend a week with him.... 24/7 and then bellyache some more.

But I STILL wonder where Danny gets all this time to hunt? :-D Hmmm, this may bear some thought!

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

So Danny...

When you do your Turkey call... is that the same thing as calling? :- D HA!!!

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

A slightly different perspective on the minister's weekly hours - focusing more on "how spent" than "how many." . . .

My goal is to get to the point where the majority of my time is spent doing things that I am specifically gifted and trained to do. For example, writing a sermon - I was hired because they wanted someone performing that task who was gifted, trained and experienced to perform it. (They couldn't find anyone, so they settled for me! LOL) My goal for my job description is: Prayer; Preaching; "Vision"; Leadership development; Staff coordination. I realize prayer is something done by every Christian - that certainly needs to include the preacher. Also, the elders must have share in the process of "vision." Experience shows it is often necessary for the preacher to "fan that flame," and even when they do share in it, I definitely want to have an active part in it. My point is, the church (and the kingdom) is best served when the "preacher" focuses his time on areas where his gift and training make the most difference.

You will notice, I left off some things. I think it is . . . "interesting" that we preach the "priesthood of all believers" and that every person has a God-given ministry, but only apply (or are only allowed to apply that) to certain ministries. For example, if someone notices a light is out, they have no problem with me asking someone else in the congregation to change it. But, if a person is in the hospital, the "preacher" needs to visit him/her. Why? That not only ignores the biblical principle of every member being a minister, it perpetuates the opposite idea we adamantly oppose: the clergy/laity distinction. People think the preacher's visit and prayer carry more weight with God. To the degree we accommodate the thought that the preacher needs to visit, we are encouraging that idea.

This practice also undermines our usual assertion that every ministry is important. That may be what we say, but our actions are shouting: "Visitation is important; maintenance can be done by anyone." Which brings up another problem this causes - it ignores the concept of gifts. Both the fact that the preacher does not have every gift, and that each person has a gift(s) that God intended him/her to use. And since He did, He obviously thought that ministry is important - whether it is maintaining the building or encouraging the sick.

In order to head off any possible questions, the reason some things ARE my focus as the preacher (vs. others), is because they do match my gift(s) and training. My point is: Let, encourage and even insist that other people fulfill ministries that match their gifts. And, make sure they get whatever training is necessary.

One last thing, I purposefully started the main section of this post with "my goal is to get to the point . . ." The church where I minister currently averages fifty in attendance. Recently, I spent an entire week wiring new lights and switches. (Fortunately, I was a couple of sermons ahead.) I have not reached my goal yet, but you will never hit a target if you are not aiming for it. (Thought I would use a metaphor this crowd could understand! I don't do much hunting since I left Indiana, but I've been doing pretty well in practical pistol competitions.)

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Steve,

I appreciate your post as you make some very good points. I believe you are right in wanting to concentrate in the areas where you feel gifted. It is also good to venture outside our "comfort zone" on occasion in order to grow on a personal level, but if we loose our focus on what we do best - we become someone that we are not. And that is where a lot of ministries and ministers fail. What's the old quote......."to thine own self be true".

That, I believe, is why the interview process leading to taking on a Ministry is so vitally important. As the preacher, we must be absolutely upfront about our perceived gifts and our known weaknesses. That way, the church and it's leadership knows what it is getting and what they can expect. Likewise, the church must be upfront with the preacher-candidate. Any and all expectations of the preacher should be made known BEFORE a decision is made. Anything other than full disclosure on the part of all parties involved will lead to conflict and a probable parting of ways in the not too distant future.

As far as "sharing the load" with the rest of the congregation, you threw another strike Brother. There are a great many things in the church that can and should be handled by the membership, not the Staff. Some time back, Danny had to "discipline" me over such a matter. The church was running a little low on men and I was always being asked to help Serve at the Communion Table. Being a "service oriented" type of fellow, I was always glad to help, but Danny made a very powerful point to me then....."not everyone is able to preach and teach, but just about anyone can pass a plate." I was literally robbing others of a chance to serve in a simple but important way. When we don't share and/or create opportunities of service for all in the Congregation, we end up weakening both the people and the Church. Maybe that is why many churches have fallen into a state of dis-repair in this day and age.

Often this type of thinking has to be taught to the group, as the "Pastor" system has so indoctrinated many Christians to believe that no matter what it is...."it's the Preacher's job". I'm glad to see that "leadership development" is included in your job goals. When the Shepherds (Elders) of the church can be shown that they need to shepherd the flock and are taught how to do so, it's amazing how people can catch on and actually begin to look for things to do! But it can be a long, slow battle - so keep on it.

Let me share an example of both of your points as it exists in my current church. The Senior Minister has just become eligible to start drawing a Social Security Check for his many years of secular work. He is a fine man and a great preacher and teacher, but (in his later years) he has grown to not care much for the administrative functions in the office and feels that is not his most gifted area. He has graciously given up a portion of his salary equal to his Social Security Check in order to open the door for another Associate position to handle administrative tasks and other areas. Now he can concentrate on his perceived gifted areas (and family) and also has created a way to bring up into the ministry another man who has felt the call to serve full-time in the ministry. You just gotta love the wisdom and forethought he has displayed in this matter.

With all that said, I will admit though - sometimes wiring the lighting circuits can be a much welcomed distraction - almost as much fun as the pistol work.

-- Anonymous, March 10, 2000

Do any of you preachers have a regular calling program? If so, what is it like?

Do you go with your elders, alone, or with anyone else?

How often do you try to see those in the congregation? Once a week, a month, a year? How often should you visit the widows or elderly?

Is it a good use of a preachers time to spend the afternoon drinking coffee with his members?

I feel that God has called me to preach and teach the Word. Yet the congregation I serve is a smaller older congregation and likes calling and I feel that I do need to get to know the people, but how often do I need to be in their homes?

I realize that each circumstance and church is different. Yet any input would be helpful.

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Marc,

I can't really speak from my current circumstances as I am involved in a long distance, weekend Ministry that really doesn't allow calling time, but I'll be glad to help on general ideas.

As far as going calling alone......don't do it, and especially don't do it when visiting a woman who is alone in her home. Not that anything would ever happen, but we live in a crazy, lawsuit-minded society so you must always protect yourself. Going with someone else (an Elder, Deacon, friend, wife, or child even) tends to keep things on the "up & up". It will also help if problems ever crop up in the church, the "he said - she said" argument doesn't work when there are witnesses. Like Paul told Timothy, "avoid even the appearance of evil".

Your situation, a "small older congregation", tends to be a more more "maintenance intensive" type of group, where the membership expects to see the preacher in their home quite often. I truly enjoy visiting with people in that type of atmosphere, but there may come a time when you have to "put the brakes" on some of it. When you feel this sort of visiting is cutting into your prayer life, study time, and sermon prep time - it's time for a change. A change I would initiate through the Elders, possibly asking and training them to help in that area.

Another thing about "smaller, older congregations", if you spend all of your time visiting with the members - the church will continue to get smaller and older. If you're not out in the community as well, bringing the lost to Christ, your church will eventually die out due to lack of membership. That is no way to "preach yourself out of a job".

AS far as specifics go, talk to your Elders. Have a "Blue Sky" session where everyone throws out ideas and develop goals and plans for calling, shepherding, evangelism - the whole 9 yards.

Hope that helps,

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Yes Mark, this does help. These are things I already know, just need reasurance and opinions. Thanks for you time:)

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2000

Your Holyness,Focous on Him,If He does't appear to you,You will feel His vibration. It is beautifull.devil can't come close to You.Remember Mother Theresa You will feel Her too.Please pray also for Peace.On behalf of the WORLD I am sorry for the trouble we should leave you alone.

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000

Ex-sqeeze me??

-- Anonymous, March 20, 2000