I always felt the vast majority of Y2K pessimists were decent folks... just a bit overwhelmed with the fears surrounding Y2K. During the Y2K debate I also began noticing some commonalities among the pessimists. Most seemed rather dour about modern culture. Many appeared rather intelligent, fans of science fiction and fantasy. When I attended the northern Virginia Y2K gathering, I enjoyed interacting with a very diverse group. The conversation was interesting (and quite well behaved). It could have been any group of middle class white Americans out for a community picnic.

On the TB 2000 forum, most of the Y2K pessimists seemed quite conservative, though there were a few notable participants from the "eco-left." Fundamental Christianity (or alternative spirituality)also seemed a common trait.

Here are my questions... were some Y2K "doomers" simply predisposed to believe an idea like the Y2K apocalypse? Did Y2K resonate because some individuals felt we were already on an elevator straight to Hell? Were imaginative fans of apocalyptic fiction drawn into preparing for a scenario they had many times imagined? Did conservative Christian beliefs plant the seeds for believing in an Armageddeon? Did discontent create a willingness, even a desire, to build a new society on the ashes of the old?

We have talked about Y2K on many levels. One of the most interesting, at least to me, is the sociological phenomena. A group of individuals made significant changes in lifestyle. I was on the outside looking in... but what was it like from the inside looking out?

Now, I know some of the regular pessimsts will cling to the notion they are sane and the rest of the world is crazy. Preparing for Y2K, (including the construction of the Y2K bunker), was utterly rationale. I'm more interested in people who look back on preparation with a more balanced view. Was there a predisposition for believing in a Y2K apocalypse? Do you feel manipulated by the Ed Yourdon's or Gary North's? And what happens when a real threat pops up on the horizon?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), March 07, 2000

Answers

KEN:

"I thought you'd never ask!" As a matter of fact you have caught me in the midst of preparing my "An '11.5 Doomer looks at Y2K - Round Three," looking at those very issues you have brought up. Taking a balanced look at them is overdue. Hang in there -- hope to post it by the end of this week.

Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), March 07, 2000.

YEA JKEN!@ ths DOOMLPRS re CRZpY! NTHNYG& BD cn EVr happnq! THSQE desil tankqs nd tht STrod food RA EUSELSS!! Yore th ONLi SANe prson IN TH WRLD!@ U kno whT IS gng TO HPPNE! Bt eevn yuo misd 1 thng: THr R NO THRTS T prepre for!!! evRthng IS WNDrefful! nD alwsys Wl BE!!!!!

-- RIGHT ON>E! (master@bat.xxx), March 07, 2000.

Doomsters were always very much in a minority, probably many of them wanted to see the end of Clinton.

-- Sir Richard (richard.dale@unum.co.uk), March 07, 2000.

Doomsters were always very much in a minority, probably many of them wanted to see the end of Clinton.

YEA rchrd!!! Evby bt DOMMRS" Lovs clnTOqN!!! he gt ovre *40 Prc#t* of th VOTps Lst eLCTqion!!! woh cld b MRe pplar thn THTA!???!

-- RIGHt ONC@! (mastr@bait.xx), March 07, 2000.

There was a substantial majority of Anti-Doomers who wanted to see the end of The Thing at 1600 Pa. just as much but couldn't live with the idea of algore in Its place.

Most know the Founder of the net for what he is but few remember some "press leaks" where algore claimed he was "at the center of the effort behind the scenes to resolve the problems of the Y2k Computer crisis." He even went on one news show and mumbled that without being too specific.

No matter how bad "The Thing" was (I try never to write his name), everyone should remember that algore was born, raised, trained and became one of the members of the group that truly believes D.C. and the Feds can solve all problems.

Dr. Maxey at the U. of Texas views algore are evil incarnate and a tool of all those power structure Leftists who have never left D.C. since FDR, Hubert H. and the rest of the Socialist Leaners.

"The Thing" at least had some capitalist leanings if only shown by taking Room Rents for the Lincoln Bedroom.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), March 07, 2000.

It seems to be so. I know when I had my short flirtation with extreme pessimism, I started to fantasize about post-apocalyptic scenarios where I was the hero (snort). While most of the beginning material falls on the extreme libertarian/highly conservative side of the spectrum, as the idea spread, it transcended politics. I've found at least one site which was planning on building a survival community focused on spiritual renewal 'for all colors, creeds, paths and gender preferences', similarly you've got folks like Eric Utne.

I've got a reference somewhere to Russ Voorhees' history (he's the guy who was/is building Heritage West 2000) which says that he was always planning on building a model community, and Y2K was just an impetus. There's also an emphasis on 'transformation' in a lot of the literature - if you poke through the Humpty Dumpty Y2K reading list, you'll find works like The Fourth Turning popping up.

It strikes me as an outgrowth of Flint's point in his 'Marching Morons' essay, but that's a thought I'd have to refine over a longer period.

-- mpc (mc7f@andrew.cmu.edu), March 07, 2000.

Bill

I for one will look forward to your next installment later this week. With few exceptions, I had never led a life of preparedness up until the fourth quarter of 1998. Like many of you it was at that time when my awareness of Y2K issues gave me pause and resulted in my buying into the potential for major problems. I jumped in with both feet, read volumes of material, scoured the internet, attended seminars and expos, and spent a fair amount of money on items that I would not have in the past.

Being a businessman, I found myself involved in a start-up company that was formed for the specific purpose of supporting the escalating demand for various products such as generators and alternative energy systems. Although a mature industry, the new demand level was creating some unique opportunities for those willing to invest in the future. All of this thrust me into the eye of the Y2K storm and as a result I have a crystal clear picture of what took place from a business standpoint. During all of this activity I sincerely felt that my involvement was an honorable endeavor and I was the one in my circle of family and friends that preached the need for awareness. Along came April of 1999.

As we moved into 1999 my involvement in things Y2K was intense and complete. As a result I was taking a hard look at the optimistic approach and beginning to have some doubts. Also, because I was deeply entrenched in the Y2K business community, certain folks like G. North and M. Hyatt stared to wear thin on me. I will not hesitate to tell you that I had many business dealings with the Hyatt group and there is only one thing that he believes in: Maximizing profits for himself. Additionally, none of the predicted disaster dates had produced any problems and when April 1st and 9th came and went I took a 180.

I came to the realization that there was a major scam being perpetuated on society and it was creating a massive monetary trough for the profit pigs to feed at. I guess my strongest reaction was one of shame that I had been taken in and worst became one of the participants. I sold off my Y2K business interests and lashed out at the Y2K community in general, scolding those who dared to continue believing that any real problems would occur. Im certain that much of my anger was a result of my own miscalculations. Like most of you I dont like to be fooled if you know what I mean.

Now here we are in March of 2000 and still, the hangover lingers. Im not mad anymore at myself for preparing. Hell, I should have been doing that all along and my family has adopted the practice as well. What does remain is my distaste for the Y2K charlatans that are still out there perpetuating their little profit centers. Im only slightly less angry with those that continue to support and follow these scam artists for without them they would disappear. Im now more than happy to share my thoughts with those of you that visit this forum and occasionally throw a barb or two at a deserving target. Out.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 07, 2000.

Lebanon. Afganistan. Iran. Iraq. Serbia. Yugoslavia. Somalia. Rwanda. Countries torn apart by internal and external wars. The film footage is served with dinner every night. I've met people from nearly every country in the world. They all said that Americans have no idea how good we have it and how quickly normal society can fall apart. When Kosovo citizens were being driven over their border into overwhelmed refugee camps, time and again the person being interviewed said, "I had a house, a car, a white-collar job... I was just like YOU." Kurdish refugees in the mountains of Iraq said the same thing as their children and old people died of exposure.

I make no apologies for taking this issue seriously enough to make preparations for as many people as we could carry here. If it had been a 'hard down', we had in mind to just keep everyone supplied with food, warmth, potable water, and other needed support until our area had services restored. There was NO political agenda. We didn't build a bunker. I figured if things got so bad that we needed a bunker, we would have been notified at gunpoint before we could get to one. The weakness of our fixed-position... :)

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), March 07, 2000.

What does remain is my distaste for the Y2K charlatans that are still out there perpetuating their little profit centers. Im only slightly less angry with those that continue to support and follow these scam artists for without them they would disappear.

You gutt it in a nutshell RA. Ditto that.

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), March 07, 2000.

Oh brother, I'm going to get in trouble here.

Rational, please understand that nothing I say in this post is intended to offend you. I'd just like to share what I think about some of what you wrote. (Feel free to rip me apart afterwards if you want, Ok?)

"Maximizing profits for himself."

That's what most business people do. This is a capitalist society and that's what drives this economy. (I could go into detail, but it is necessary?)

I came to the realization that there was a major scam being perpetuated on society and it was creating a massive monetary trough for the profit pigs to feed at.

What else is new? Hugh Hefner and Larry Flint have been doing the same thing for years. Among other things, they sell touched-up photos of naked women which is the equivalent of manufacturing a culturally acceptable "image" of women. If that isn't a scam, I don't know what is.

IMHO, Y2k is insignificant compared to other wrongs in the world. (I think spay and neutering should be mandatory at all Humane Societies, but I'm not going to win that battle either.)

(By the way, after I thought about it, I think only a small percentage of society bought into the y2k hype. Most people don't own a computer and couldn't have cared less. I think we bought into it, big time, because we understood the possibilities. Unfortunately, we didn't understand that people were already working on the bug, and most pc's didn't need any work done anyway. I think you're doing what I did a couple of weeks ago, and that is extending your life, and your experiences to the general public. We aren't like the general public, Rational.)

now more than happy to share my thoughts with those of you that visit this forum and occasionally throw a barb or two at a deserving target.

Go for it! Please feel free to throw barbs at me, throw barbs at GN or Yourdon, or anybody else your precious heart feels like. I have the feeling OldTB isn't going to censor anybody for an opinion, so we can rant all we want!

Lord, it feels good to breathe again.

!

-- laura (lady@.........), March 07, 2000.

Yes, each of you has a wonderful point to make about all this. My son is an IT guy. He knows computers. He knows computers fail. He knows why they fail. He knows how to fix them. He knows how hard it is to find some of the problems which need fixing. He knows how long it takes. My son and I prepared. When we watched the rollover in wonder with all the beauty unfolding in ceremonies around the world we could not believe our eyes. This is not logically happening we said to ourselves. This can't be happening. But there it was - right in front of us on the television screen. The world did not black out. The world was ambling on as if it were just another day. And it was. Then came the overwhelming embarrassment. How can we look our friends and neighbors in the face? Those who laughed at us initially will think we are idiots more than ever and now they will KNOW we are idiots. Other friends and family who took our advice and prepared - what will they say? The amazing thing is -- they said nothing. They were feeling the same thing we were. So, after the initial mortification subsided and we began to "regroup" it slowly dawned on us that we had done a wonderful thing. During a terrible storm recently - we had lights and warmth and food. There were many who didn't. When the snow is deep and the ice makes travel treacherous and the power lines go down with their burden of ice we have food and warmth and lights and we can just cozy in. In other words, we have a feeling of comfort and safety the level of which we have not experienced before. It is so great! Needless to say - we will never go back to the old ways. We learned a lesson in independence which is very freeing. And we are VERY GRATEFUL.

-- Very (Grateful@still.here), March 07, 2000.

end center

-- (Lady@cleaning up her .mess), March 07, 2000.

VRY:

No, fyo dont undrstnd!!! Th GVMNT wl tk CRE f YO! Y shrldnt tk cr of Yrnslf!!! Y shld hv wated fr th trk t tk y t th WRMng ShLTr!!! ts UNmeracin to tk CR F yOrnslf!!! thts wy NO 1 shld prpre fr YKK@!!! ts ALL a LSCAM!!!!

-- HRGHT ON!P (mastr@baty.xxx), March 07, 2000.

Well, come on. I'm waiting to get hit with a hot bagga nickles.

5"

(removed extra center tag. OTFR)

-- laura (lady@.......), March 07, 2000.

Ken,

Excellent questions. Since you've asked, I'd be happy to give you a peek at the predispositions and faulty logic employed by this terminal doomer. (Hangonasec, lemme go put on the foil) [bseg]

First, a little background. I am a registered Republican but only because my state (CT) has closed primaries. I would have ordinarily been registered as an Independent since my true political leanings are more in line with Libertarianism. I have never believed in the .gov's, or any institution for that matter, ability to take care of me and my family in the event of a "real" crisis. Similarly, even though I am a Christian, I belong to no organized church or group, again believing that the responsibility for my salvation is mine alone, to be won with a lifetime of right action. Whenever I hear some of the Fundamentalists and "Born Agains" spouting the erroneous tenet that belief in Christ is all you need, I just shake my head. I shun these types as I would any other slimy salesman.

Since Christianity is the foundation upon which my worldview is built, I cannot be anything but a doomer considering that a central belief of Christianity is that "all things must pass" before God's kingdom can be realized. This belief has been a cornerstone of my life, right or wrong. While I have spent many years questioning the premises my beliefs are built on, even to the point of drifting away from religion for many years at a time, I always come back. I wish I had some reasonable explanation for this other than the fact that long-held beliefs are comforting. At this point in my life, though, I am still a hopeless believer.

For the majority of my adult life, I have never fully "bought in" to the world and feel as if I'm an outsider who just doesn't get it. Although I am reasonably successful in my professional career, I don't have much interest in money and the accumulation of it. To go further, I was never able to decide (through high school and college) what I should do with my life. I essentially had and continue to have zero interest in being a professional anything. I see the world as an artificial place that has bearing on the "real" world of spirit only through how we choose to relate to our fellow men.

So, sitting essentially outside of, and not sharing the motivations that seem to drive others, I have literally been waiting my entire life for the "bad dream" that I consider this world to be to end. Given this context, is it so hard to see how Y2K and it's sexy disaster scenarios could be easily embraced? It was precisely this worldwide Armageddon that I had thought about and anticipated (dare I say looked forward to?) for most of my life.

Since it would appear that Y2K is not the catalyst for TEOTWAWKI, then I freely admit I was wrong about Y2K's role in the "end times" scenario. The nice thing about this admission, though, is that I never stated in public, or in private for that matter, my belief that Y2K was anything but a simple date issue. I just never felt compelled to "convert" anyone or explode my family's life because of it. While my wife and I both bought into the prep idea, her motivations most certainly were not religious in nature, and I did not share with her my belief that Y2K was the beginning of the end. She is of the Jewish faith, and so we exhausted those conversations years ago when we both realized that we'd never convert the other.

Now, in the Y2K aftermath, watching a good many people scream at each other and seemingly trying to affix blame, I continue to sit quietly by waiting for the next sign that the curtains are about to be drawn.

TB2000, in ALL its' current iterations, has been an absolute treasure for me. Before finding this forum, I had pretty much resigned myself to thinking that I was relatively alone in my beliefs and worldview. I am comforted by the fact that I am most certainly NOT alone, and reading the words of Bill Schenker and others has helped me understand myself to a degree that I never thought possible.

Again, just a little glimpse into what's left of the mind of another confirmed and hopeless doomer.

Jimmy

-- Jimmy Splinters (inthe@dark.com), March 07, 2000.

No problem Laura as I agree with all of your points. Of course all businesses should attempt to maximize their profits. My bitch with Hyatt, North, etc. is the deceptive manner in which they conducted themselves. They wrapped the cloak of religion around their fear mongering in order to sell products. In Hyatts case, his products were inferior and way overpriced. All Christians should be outraged at these activities.

In my opinion, these people had come to the same conclusion that I had: Y2K was over-hyped and the problems that were projected did not compute. Instead of taking the high road, these charlatans stepped up their efforts to spread fear amongst the flock. Hyatt is still at it and I would be surprised if you dont find that disturbing.

Now youll have to excuse me, as I need to get to the polls and speak my mind the old fashioned way.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 07, 2000.

Hey, Laura, you left the center on.

Jimmy

-- Jimmy Splinters (inthe@dark.com), March 07, 2000.

Sorry, Jimmy.

I have to quit doing that.

-- (lady@.......), March 07, 2000.

test

-- (lady@.......), March 07, 2000.

Rational,

Yeah, that bothers me. All injustices bother me. However, I only take arms against those things I can do something about (i.e. spamming TimeBomb).

I'm not sure, but I don't think there's much that can be done about Hyatt Yourdon, and North. What they do isn't illegal and complaining about it over here isn't going to help the people who are influenced by them, or who are buying their products. Besides, I'll bet there are people who are going to buy those products and services, regardless of what we say. It's a free country! (However, I don't imagine there are many.)

Hey! If you think you can stop it, more power to ya, mister. You might want to talk to cpr about it though. Maybe the two of you can come up with some kind of plan to reduce the FUD coming from those men, but I doubt it. Cripes, if you do, let me know. If you can figure a way to stop those guys, the same principle could be applied elsewhere, and mankind would owe you a debt of gratitude.

(Ain't gonna happen.)

~*~

-- laura (lady@.....), March 07, 2000.

Ken,

This is an interesting query. I had never thought about my own situation from this perspective until now. I will try to respond to your post completely as it relates to my position as a "doomer".

"a bit overwhelmed with the fears surrounding Y2K".
"Fear" was not the correct feeling in my situation. Here in the midwest, you don't "fear" a blizzard,(even though it could kill you)you just prepare for it. Once I had determined that Y2K COULD(not WOULD) cause problems, I set out to be prepared.

"dour about modern culture".
You could somewhat say that about me. I am very grateful for the modern conveniences that we have in this country, but I have some sorrow in my heart for the good things that we have lost due to "progress". The benefits of a simple life filled with things like chopping wood, gardening, hunting, fishing, canning and the like are not just physical, but spiritual as well. For me, I believe that I am closer to God when I am doing these things than when I am working on my computer.

"rather intelligent, fans of science fiction and fantasy".
Yes, no and no.

"quite conservative...Fundamental Christianity".
Yes...Fundamental-no, Christianity-yes.

"were some Y2K 'doomers' simply predisposed to believe an idea like the Y2K apocalypse"?
Yes. Again, I am not a technophobe, but when large segments of the population have no understanding of the food production system beyond the grocery store, or worse yet, beyond the local McDonalds, then I believe that said population is acutely vulnerable to some sort of apocalyptic mishap. In my opinion, most Americans have neither the tools nor the knowledge to fend for themselves on a food and shelter subsistence level.

"Did Y2K resonate because some individuals felt we were already on an elevator straight to Hell"?
Maybe. I believe that the morality of this country continues to decline, but I can't say that on a conscious level my thoughts about Y2K were impacted by this belief.

"Were imaginative fans of apocalyptic fiction drawn"...
No.

"Did conservative Christian beliefs plant the seeds for believing in an Armageddeon(sic)"?
I believe that there will be an Armageddon, as it says so in the bible. I never believed that Y2K was going to usher in the end of the age, though.

"Did discontent create a willingness, even a desire, to build a new society on the ashes of the old"?
I am discontent with many aspects of society today, but I still hold out hope that these aspects can be changed for the better, not that society must be destroyed and rebuilt.

"A group of individuals made significant changes in lifestyle. I was on the outside looking in... but what was it like from the inside looking out"?
It was a large task to put in place the things that I felt were needed to prepare to be as unreliant on man and society as I reasonably could. There was a little bit of deadline anxiety, as there is with any project. There was a feeling of satisfaction when the preparations were finally in place, and there was a sense of excitement as we went into rollover. Excitement because no one, doomer or polly(regardless of what they say now) knew for sure what was going to happen, not excitement because I hoped that society was about to be thrust backwards 100 years in time.

"Now, I know some of the regular pessimsts(sic) will cling to the notion they are sane and the rest of the world is crazy. Preparing for Y2K,(including the construction of the Y2K bunker), was utterly rationale(sic)".
To each of us, the rest of the world IS somewhat crazy. I think that it is crazy not to accept the free gift of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ. I think that is crazy to believe that killing unborn babies is OK. I think that it is crazy not to own a firearm, and even crazier to try and take away someone else's right to own one. You unfairly banish the truly self-sufficient to "kookdom" because they hold different beliefs than you. I believe that you do them, and yourself, a disservice by pigeonholing them as crazy.

"Do you feel manipulated by the Ed Yourdon's or Gary North's"?
No, I don't feel manipulated.

"And what happens when a real threat pops up on the horizon"?
The wording of your last question assumes that Y2K was never a "real threat". I disagree. I feel that it was an averted threat, but a real threat nonetheless. As far as when a "real" threat pops up on the horizon, I believe that there are many already there. China, Russia, North Korea, Iraq, terrorists with biological weapons, the most expensive stock market in history, the largest trade imbalance in history, an ever more intrusive government, a monetary system backed by air,...take your pick. To the best of my ability, I plan on being prepared to deal with the uncertainties that a complex world bring, and to be prepared to help those that I love.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), March 07, 2000.

Ken

No particular predisposition here.

Just the percieved 50/50 chance that there could be signicant problems (allways have hated getting caught with my pants down).Also,watching .gov do one thing and say another has allways alarmed me.

As a side note,something that amazed me was/is the general populations belief that things are rosy in America and so they will allways be,with no concept of paradigm shift.

Shift happens.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 07, 2000.

KEN:

It just occurred to me that because of your absence from the on-going dialog in February, you may have missed my thread on 2/1/00 in the old TB2K. It really doesn't do justice to your good questions, but it was a start anyway. It was called "An '11.5' Doomer looks at Y2K as of 2-1-00." Here's the link:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002TJr .

Bill

-- William J. Schenker, MD (wjs@linkfast.net), March 07, 2000.

I fully admit to doomer tendencies in general. Although on the particular question of Y2K I tended more to agnosticism.

When I first heard about Y2K, my reaction was that it was absurd to believe that it would cause much trouble. As I did more research I began to ponder the amount of mainframe legacy code that would need to be gleaned for date-dependent code and I remembered how much obfuscated spaghetti code I had seen in my days. Then I realized what a huge task it was to fix it all.

Eventually, I did conclude that some degree of Y2K disruption was quite likely and could easily serve as a trigger or catalyst for popping the USA investment bubble. I still worry about that bubble, but I cannot think of only earthly thing I can do to protect myself from it that I have not already done.

I do not fit the fundamentalist Christian or the science fiction/fanatasy reader profile. I come at my pessimism through reading history. I find comfort in observing the natural world. If I have a mystical streak, it is mainly because there is no other practical way to put a bottom under one's thoughts.

Oddly, I was not one who made any significant changes in lifestyle in response to Y2K. If 45 years of doing my best couldn't produce the best results I know how to achieve, then I'm not going to pull something radically better out of my hat in 10 months.

Frankly, my tastes don't run to apocalyptic myths of destruction and redemption. I am an ameliorist and an incrementalist at heart. For that reason I can never think of radical changes of fortune in anything but a pessimistic light. My creed is, when things get better, they do so little by little; when things fall apart, they can do so at any speed from agonizing to instantaneous. That is probably another reason why I am profoundly sceptical of the stock bubble. Any good fortune that emerges that quickly will have to be torn down and rebuilt on a sounder basis.

>> Did discontent create a willingness, even a desire, to build a new society on the ashes of the old? <<

My immediate reaction to this is to say, the new could not grow from anything but the seeds already present in the old. As they say, the apple never falls far from the tree. Plus, ashes are not the finest building material one could hope for. So, if you are discontent with the old, you'll probably not be much gratified by the new once you get to know it.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), March 07, 2000.

Ken,

Long time no speak... I stumbled upon this board while doing some intense surfing the other day, and I noticed your postings... Cool! Ken lives...

I was a moderate regarding the 010100 phenomenon; I didn't have a bunker, but I had 200+ gallons of water in my garage. (still do) I figured that since I do live in the desert, the water MIGHT be of some use.

Y2K came and went... No problem. But I kept thinking about the "could" as opposed to the "would" scenario and had preparations all the same. In fact, parts of the "preparation phase" still linger and will continue to do so... Such as my stockpile of kerosene for my heater in the garage just seems to make sense. My wife has become accustomed to buying extra food and putting it in our locked cabinet in the garage. We buy bulk at Costco, break it down into smaller portions and store it. It is just plain old economics.

However... I do not store gasoline, or other flammables other than the said kerosene.

Ken I see you weathered well into the last year of the 20th century and I wish you well, oh holder of the magic crystal ball... LOL.

And by the way, I am a MAJOR fan of science fiction/fantasy literature, and am NOT a bible thumping "Christian". If you recall, my mainstay to this dogma was the names... i.e. Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH, Mohammad, Vishnu... please pick your favorite...

Be good Ken, The Dog will be lurking from time to time to appreciate your posts...

Hi Laura!!!!

snoozin' on the porch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), March 07, 2000.

Ken, I know what my motivation was. Y2K and it's looming disasters sounded like a lot of Adventure. Excitement. It was made to order fun. Much like playing pirates when you were a child, climbing over furniture so you didn't fall into the ocean...it was a pretend adventure. I knew in the back of my mind it wouldn't really happen. Infact, when I came to the conclusion that it would just be some sporadic outages, (I think I was a 2 at that poitn) it tooks all the fun right out of it for me. I lost interest for a month.

My husband is a programmer. He has written old codes which are still floating around God knows where. He was convinced there were going to be problems. We had to discuss at length exactly what level of preparedness we wanted to be at. Six weeks was the answer we came up with, because he felt he could hunt and fish if he had to for us to survive TEOTWAWKI. Six weeks would just buy us some time. Then, he used it to justify buying three new firearms, and ammo, and a new scanner and a shortwave radio, and a BayGen radio. These things cost money. I didn't think we needed them. It came down to a man and his toys.

In December, he stated he felt confident that everything in banking and government would be okay, and that we wouldn't "lost the grid" ...but on New Years Eve, he was wearing his gun belt. I couldn't help but laugh at him. He had bought into the adventure too. He was disappointed on New Years Day. Depressed. I felt bad for him. He didn't want the Y2K that was supposed to bring death and destruction, he just wanted the one where he got to defend his family and hunt for food. I think it's a Macho thing. :-)

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), March 07, 2000.

Hi Ken-- So why DID Jerry, Pam, and Jeremy prepare?

When one of our son's friends brought up Y2k we thought it was laughable.

When a fellow IE spoke at Rotary and asked them to set up shelters and talked about power plants going down, we started paying attention.

Maybe it depends on where you live how seriously Y2k was taken--how soon you might freeze to death. Yes, I read science fiction--for 46 years now. No, absolutely not a fundamentalist. Looking for something to rise from the ashes?--no, just wondering if the ashes would engulf us.

Without preparation, we would have died if the power went off. We had the money to prevent this happening and so we used it. Why not?

Did we think something terrible was going to happen? Probably about a 50-50 chance. We are old enough to know first hand that when you absolutely have to have something on time and working 100%--you darn well better have a fall back plan also.

The alarm clock going off on New Year's day has to rank as one of the best sounds I have ever heard.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), March 07, 2000.

Hi Ken, I like Sci-Fi, I'm a libertarian, nonChristian, don't give a thought to the idea of Armageddeon, religious right is downright scary, I love science, archaeology, biology, books, etc. But I grew up listening to parents that talked about the depression and that probably accounts for some of my insecurities. I fell for FUD. Yourdon was an IT professional so I believed him. Hyatt and North both seemed like hucksters with a religious flair, so I didnt' pay too much attention to them. But I have to say that everything RAtional said, goes the same for me. I'm pissed at falling for this claptrap. I've changed my lifestyle somewhat for the better, but I was already doing that anyway.

The only thing we don't regret storing is gasoline, and we bought a great water filter system; a Berky in case everything went down and a system to add to our plumbing if everything stayed up. Love both of them.

Frankly, we took advice to get out of the stock market we really lost money; at least what it would cost us to live for two years. We will be ok financially but I wonder seriously how many people have devastated their bank accounts, especially those who didn't have a cushion. I also wonder how many spouses are suffering. There were so many posts about husbands that wanted to prepare and wives wouldn't, and then vice versa. This will be a sore point with lots of people for a long time. And I really feel bad for those who have a bunch of useless shit they will never need, and really could have used the money for other necessities.

I don't feel manipulated, but I do feel influenced. Frankly we were idiots for listening to idiots. The pollies were right and they took lots of abuse for it. I'm certainly glad I didn't try and influence anyone else about Y2K.

Thanks Ken for starting this post. I'd really like to see statistics about how many people feel duped by the heralds of doom.

I wish someone would post the editor of Countryside Magazine's last editorial about Y2K. It asks a lot of the questions I would like answers to. Could somebody post it.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 07, 2000.

Gilda:

Here's the link to Countryside Magazine

It looks like they only show a few featured articles from each issue and the Y2k one is way back in 1998. Perhaps you can find what you're looking for, or perhaps you need someone with the hardcopy to actually type it in?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 07, 2000.

Thanks Anita. Too bad the editorial isn't on the web site. Here's an excerpt from it: by JD Belanger, editor.

January 1, 2000 "Excuse me, but something here simply doesn't add up. It was just too easy, too smooth, too unlike the world we know, to be credible. I'd be more willing to concede that those thousands of pages of facts and professional opinion I read in the past few years were flawed if at least a few cities had gone dark, or some other problems had popped up. The few dozen that appeared were so minor they weren't even mentioned in newspapers: I had to search the Internet to find out about them.

But to suggest that all of that information was wrong, and that everything in the biggest technical blitz in history went right... that's too indredulous. At the dawn of the new year, I can't accept that.

I won't. I have far too many questions. So do those who provided most of the facts and data..."

There more and it does make one wonder.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 07, 2000.

First explain what happened to your 'sharp' recession, Ken, then I'll profile my doomer butt.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), March 07, 2000.

Gilda:

You AND the editor can be ASSURED that stuff broke. Even the polliest of pollies never said [or thought] stuff wouldn't BREAK. I'm sure every programmer on this forum can tell you about the 36- hour stints we've done to fix stuff BEFORE anyone noticed. The big question all along was "Will the power hold?" If the power held [and it did], TEAMS of programmers and engineers were ON-SITE to fix any problems that occurred....before anyone noticed.

I haven't been involved in ONE installation of a system wherein I wasn't asked to stay and "babysit" the system. It's the climax to every project. Sometimes a failure occurs and 6 people work feverishly to investigate and fix the problem; sometimes we sit/stand around, tell jokes, play games, share stories, and eventually fall asleep.

I have a friend who works at BP Amoco in Chicago. They had 24-hour coverage for [I do believe] the week BEFORE rollover and perhaps 2 weeks thereafter. EDS had control centers with the same type of monitoring. They spent lots of money on these control centers....just so things could be fixed before anyone noticed.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 07, 2000.

I HATE YOU! YOU BASTARDS!

Oh well, two months away is a pretty good shot, better luck next time.

Now on to Mr. Decker,

Here are my questions... were some Y2K "doomers" simply predisposed to believe an idea like the Y2K apocalypse?

Ummm, yes.

Did Y2K resonate because some individuals felt we were already on an elevator straight to Hell?

Ummmm, yes.

Were imaginative fans of apocalyptic fiction drawn into preparing for a scenario they had many times imagined?

Ummm, yes.

Did conservative Christian beliefs plant the seeds for believing in an Armageddeon?

Sure, why not?

Did discontent create a willingness, even a desire, to build a new society on the ashes of the old?

It was the winter of my discontent, and California girls have the best ashes.

We have talked about Y2K on many levels. One of the most interesting, at least to me, is the sociological phenomena. A group of individuals made significant changes in lifestyle. I was on the outside looking in... but what was it like from the inside looking out?

Invigorating

Now, I know some of the regular pessimsts will cling to the notion they are sane and the rest of the world is crazy.

I'm not a regular pessimst, but I do agree that y'all are fuckin nuts.

Preparing for Y2K, (including the construction of the Y2K bunker), was utterly rationale. I'm more interested in people who look back on preparation with a more balanced view. Was there a predisposition for believing in a Y2K apocalypse? Do you feel manipulated by the Ed Yourdon's or Gary North's? And what happens when a real threat pops up on the horizon?

WAAAaaaaaHOOOOO!!!!! Shoot em Jeb! Thare's anouther one popping up, shoot that shitter too!!! YEEEEHAW!! Git im, GIT IM!!!!

Plus I have lots of beans and b'scetti left over.

Have a lovely day,

PS, to nobody in particular, just in general....

I've got yooooooooouuuu......under my skin.... I've got you deep in the heart of me.... So deep in my heart, that you're really a part of me.... I've got yooooou under my skin

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), March 07, 2000.

... turn the lights down low.... fo' nutha party on he patio!!

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), March 07, 2000.

Ken:

[whispering just in case you didn't know]: If you decide to respond to Unc, do NOT mention ANYTHING about finger pulling.

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.thingee), March 07, 2000.

I predict that this current version of the TB2000 will turn out to be the all-time classic. Welcome back Uncle D, welcome back!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 07, 2000.

"I'm not a regular pessimst, but I do agree that y'all are fuckin nuts."

Now I beg your pardon Uncle Deedah. I'm a fruitcake, that's well established, and you've been well established as such also. So don't put me in that nut basket. Unless ofcourse, what you're saying is that we all fuck nuts. In that case, only us women and gays do.

-- Chris (!@#$@pond.com), March 07, 2000.

Oh, Chris, so entirely true..

Fuck this. I'm heading out for beer. Gimme ca$h, and what's your brand.

(compile sick-call-in-reason while still able)

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), March 07, 2000.

C'mon Nita, I was just kidding last time, really I was.

Here, pull my finger.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), March 07, 2000.

Good question, What characterized the Y2Kistas? I think all manner of thinkers were caught up in Y2k. I distrust & fear the gubmint,& hoped? for a modest collapse, so we might shift to a more neighborly, local based economy.I meet people of all stripes who seemed to share a similar yearning Glad I didn't have to see this possibly naive theory tested. (Although the Market may well still tank). The schizophrenia about Y2k was compelling. The official line was "Lah De Dah", while behind the scenes, it was "holy shit.." I read the Congressional Record, & found it a hell of alot scarier than Gary North. This split was hard for even people used to massive govt/media lies to view without alarm. Perhaps a broad range of people found the official & widespread schizophrenia disturbing, as I did. In a curious way, I feel healed by the whole thing: 1) I did something about my perceived fears. I prepped like hell. I was pretty much wrong, but so what, I didn't suffer much harm for it. 2) Government & industry muddled through, far better than my fears. If they (we) can get through Y2k, perhaps we can suvive & thrive The other "interesting times" ahead. 3) I found a spirit of neigborliness , caring, & intelligence on this forum & elsewhere. Have you noticed that the doomers & pollies who went through this have an affection that goes beyond their differences? (Often) I think this comradeship is important, & more widespread & significant than may be realized. It certainly has touched me.

-- Greg Donovan (GregD49@Aol.com), March 08, 2000.

Geez - it's still going strong over at EZ:

Subject: whoa...Help me.. gotta feeling I just can't shake. Posted By: Chemtrail Pilot (Global user) Posted At: 3/7/00 10:02:12 am From IP: Reply Ever feel like the other shoe is getting ready to drop?

Like something bad is getting ready to happen?

Like the battle for good and evil ain't going so great for good?

You hear a rumbleing in the distance and you are not sure what it is.

Or if its coming for you.

Like you just want to grab your kids and family and hold them tight and protect.? Like you have got some huge butterflies doing their thing?

You just want to vomit.

Like your throat is swelling and its getting hard to breathe?

Know what I mean?

This just slowly started coming over me Sunday night and slowly building.

Anybody else felling it?

Feelings - that's what drives their truth!!

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), March 08, 2000.

Doomerstomper

That same post has popped up before and it will usually bring out the worry warts for all manner of dark thoughts. Hey, its all part of the picture eh?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 08, 2000.

"I've got yooooooooouuuu......under my skin.... I've got you deep in the heart of me.... So deep in my heart, that you're really a part of me.... I've got yooooou under my skin"

Then sit back and dig that crazy trombone solo! One of my all-time favorite musical moments.

-- RC (randyxpher@aol.com), March 08, 2000.

Hi Unc, glad to see you back posting your electric posts, complete with music.

One thing I ain't gonna' do is sit and wait quietly for the next sign that the curtain will be drawn. Let the curtain come, I've prepared my last. But then I'm prepared anyway so, let it come.

Laura I don't want to sue anyone, and I don't want to throw barbs. It's just that I feel like a person who's been suckered at the carnival. Bought the line of bull, just like a "fresh from the boonies sucker."

Yes, Anita I know there were glitches, but unless most of the power grid in the U. S. goes down, it really doesn't amount to a bucket of warm spit, as far as the general public is concerned.

I'm happy everything stayed up and running. But I feel many old gurus of FUD, played it to the hilt, and I'm gonna' bitch till I feel better.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), March 08, 2000.

Thanks for an interesting thread.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), March 10, 2000.