The thing that really disturbed me about the 1st grade shooting was that I heard about it on the radio when pulling into my subdivision this evening. I said to myself in disgust, "I must tell my wife when I get home".

By the time I had parked the car in the driveway, a minute or so later, I had forgotten all about it. Saw it on the news and it came back into memory. It's the frog in the boiling water syndrome.

In my opinion, we are f*ed. What else can you say for a society that spends millions to pry into the sex life of its President, but allows people like Howard Stern to broadcast perversion to their children over public airwaves in the middle of the day.

-- Good Luck America (@ .), February 29, 2000

Answers

Howard Stern? Try virtually any TV fare, any evening, any channel. Frog in boiling water indeed!

-- JB (noway@jose.com), February 29, 2000.

All politics is local
A young woman was raped in my daughter's apt. complex last night. I'm getting her a Mossberg 500 (she knows what to do with it). The parents of this young shooter will have to deal with their shortcomings...i'm taking care to protect my child.

-- John Galt (still@doom.er), February 29, 2000.

Gee, Howard must be rubbing off on you. A really clean living soul wouldn't even say/write f*ed. It amuses me of the hypocrisy of all these moralists: they can't say/write the word in full, but yet what they say/write leaves no doubt as to the "nasty" intended.

Now, the reason for school shootings and related is GENETIC DEVOLUTION. Spencer said something like "To protect fools from the effects of their folly is to fill the world with fools." In a way, it's too bad we didn't have Y2K TEOTWAWKI -- the herd really needs thinning.

My pet theory on gun-related accidents is that parents are afraid to educate their children because that would be admitting they have the guns. And kids talk. This didn't use to be a problem, but now the parents would be put on the school's/county child welfare department shit list if the kid talks about mommy's guns during "show and tell". So the kids are left ignorant of what guns are really about and how to handle and use them properly.

I used to be able to walk down the street with a .22 when I was 11, 12, 13 years old. I could go to a hardware store and buy all the boxes of ammo I wanted, at that age, no questions asked. Now there would be fifty cop cars surrounding me.

The problem is not guns -- it's moral fascists (religious conservatives) and political fascists (everyone else).

-- A (A@AisA.com), February 29, 2000.

...got to confess sumpthin'...I never imagined something like this could EVER happen...I have allowed my 6 year old son to watch South Park....never again!!!

-- Vern (bacon17@ibm.net), February 29, 2000.

And don't forget where all the really good new computer advances are coming from, what's really driving the market in a lot of ways--video gore games, that almost every kid (and a lot of adults) play now. You get to kill, mutilate, explode, fry, burn, atomize and otherwise destroy you "enemy". It's the American way, brought to you by the computer professionals of profitdotcom! Look how realistic it is! Isn't that c-o-o-o-o-l! And when you grow up, and get to graduate from high school barely able to read, but with a "B" average, you can go join up the video game armymarinenavyairforce, and get to play video game death for real, just like all those ads say during the commercials during "the big game" on the weekends! Be all you can be! Double c-o-o-o-ol! Sports! Death! Computers! Money! But wait, don't forget about "Free College", the most important part! Ain't life great! All hail the King, and the video revolution! 100,000 points and a weapons upgrade! C-o-o- o-l!

-- parents (haveabandoned@theirresponsibilites.formoney), February 29, 2000.

moral facists are the problem? right.

let me get this clear. IT IS THE RELIGIOUS FOLKS WHO ARE: filling the airwaves of tv with violence and sex? teaching kids that there is no right or wrong? peddling alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and gambling and other addictive behaviors to children? raping, shooting, and murdering people? killing babies? selling military secrets abroad? having oral sex in the oval office?

i think you MIGHT have us confused with the people that are actually responsible for performing these acts. i think the only thing the religious folks have done is to point out how destructive these behaviors can be to individuals and to society. That is what REALLY ticks people off. If you think the Judaeo Christian ethic and moral foundation is so hideous--try going to another country such as India, Africa, China -- whose moral foundation is based on some other religion that doesn't value human life and tell me just how nice it is.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), February 29, 2000.

Vern:

How about the demonizing of the NRA? Their attempts to educate and promote gun safety have been thwarted by a mass media that will accept nothin less than the UN agenda of disarming the entire planet!! The record of government murder and extermination of groups of people since 1950 is appalling. An individual shooting is magnified in impact, but the horrible elimination of life by governments around the world is totally ignored. The level of propaganda is so painfully obvious to any discerning observer that our fate is obviously sealed. The average consumer of network news is so lazy, ignorant and devoid of independent thought that we are hopelessly outnumbered. We will be buried in the ignorance of the masses.

-- JCC (wolverine_in_nc@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

--A A A

Are you a degenerate? And do you strive each day to be more degenerate?

Your constant bashing of anyone with morals can only mean to me that you have none. If you have no morals than I take it for granted that you do not not strive to be a better person or more compassionate or more caring or in anything more "God like".

So each day of your life do you try to be worse of a human being? Or are you stagnant?

I'm not interested in your explanation of your hatred of religion but am truly curious what it is you worship or what you strive for.

-- Lucy (lifeisgoodhere@webtv.net), February 29, 2000.

"An armed society is a polite society."

-- ElCoyote (ElCoyote@Wasteland.com), February 29, 2000.

C-puppy:

Since when did Christians or our government value human life? How many dead on the Bill,Hill list? !64 or so, not to mention the war victims.

Give me a break, from the BS

Sandy

-- Sandy (rstyree@overland.net), February 29, 2000.

The problem with the religious moral fascists is that they have no clue as to what is really a problem and what isn't. Because of their relgious moral indiscriminate blinders. So when they go off on sex related behavior, which anyone with any SENSE knows is no problem if there is no force involved, and then they go off on government screwing us -- the problem is that people tend to discount ALL of what the moralists say, because what they know directly (that sex is good and fun -- married or not, of legal age or not, same sex or not ...) does not jibe with what the moralists say. So they tend to think that the other stuff about government, etc., is just more religous crank booshwha.

The as far as drugs -- the hypocrisy is similar. How many smoke, drink liquor, drink coffee or tea, take Valium or Lithium, or various "prescription" (legally authorized) drugs. The only argument the moralists have is "bad -- go to jail" for whatever drugs they personally happen to disapprove of.

Religious moralists have done more to destroy this country than all the "Lefty Loonies" because the religious cranks have muddied the waters as to what is really important and what isn't for the establishment and preservation of a free and civil society. If I believed in your stupid "god" concept, I'd swear an oath/prayer to have your "god" rot you all in hell.

-- A (A@AisA.com), February 29, 2000.

Come on! Let's hear it for TRUE gun control...which I heartily endorse...

Remember, true gun control is hitting what you aim at!

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), February 29, 2000.

DUH. so what does the Bill and Hill death list have to do with Christians? i certainly hope you aren't labelling the first couple in the obnoxious christian category? they hate the religious right and consider it some sort of conspiracy? or are you thinking that we killed those folks and blamed it on bill and hill?

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), February 29, 2000.

Who's murdered more people, Christians or Communists?

-- ElCoyote (ElCoyote@Wasteland.com), February 29, 2000.

Dear "A":

I am not a particularly religious person, but your reference to the "lefty loonies" struck a chord. Although I do not advocate strict adherence to any religious doctrine, the abdication of any moral responsibility for any act is what I attribute to the "lefty loonies".

The concept of "I am a victim and it is not my fault" is an abdication of personal responsibility and the first step on the road to anarchy. If "society" is at fault for my actions, then I have no personal accountability and ZERO responsibility for my actions. I can therefore, under this premise, do anything I chose until someone larger or more violent restricts my actions. This is barbarism, plain and simple. If you think you are Conan, this is wonderful, but beware, there is always a bigger bully and you will be at his mercy, and all of your victims will be happy to see you humiliated, hurt and killed. Mercy is an obligation of the strong, a blessing to the weak, and a measure of the rightousness of those who would rule.

-- JCC (wolverine_in_nc@hotmail.com), February 29, 2000.

Listen to the Billy Joel tune, "No Man's Land".

That about sums it up.

BTW, how much violence and death had that kid already been exposed to at the hands of our ever-benificent media? The people reponsible for that kid getting his hands on a gun (at his age) need to be prosecuted.

A few more of these, and NO ONE will be able to own a firearm.

Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is preferable to that same woman defending herself with a firearm.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), February 29, 2000.

Cuddle pup:

In answer to your questions:

[1} They Kill

{2} They are Satanic

{3} Yeah

{4} No--they did it

You did not go into the war dead, though, is it ok to kill others cause they are not CHRISTIAN? Why do we(meaning our government} have any thing to do with Israel? Are they Christian?

-- sandy (rstyree@overland.net), February 29, 2000.

I didnt even know about this except for reading it here at TB2000. I'm sure they're making a big del about it at my kid's school, which is too bad.

All you TV watchers are a bunch of hypnotized sheep. Live in a gated security complex and get a life.

-- INever (watch tv except for a movie or the sopranos) (inevercheckmy@onebox.com), March 01, 2000.

The sad part about all of this is the simple fact that a child died....period. Why a child could get their hands on a weapon speaks volumes about their home environment. You got weapons and kids...you lock the weapons up. Don't give me the "I might have to defend myself crap" here folks. Kids are curious, they get into stuff. Your adult mind might understand the hands off lesson but their perspective is that of a child. We can blame the media, the parents, the "system" the vast left wing conspiracy. The fact still remains that a kid died because someone was stupid, unthinking. Blame them.

I am single, no kids, and I lock my weapons in a safe when I'm not home. I own weapons that most people can not afford or have a use for and I take that responsibilty very seriously. And that's the issue here...responsibility. Nobody takes it, it's someone else's fault. You "F" up it's your fault not mine or society's. We will loose some right's over this...mark my words.

just watching the inmates at the home.....

-- (watcher@yahoo.com), March 01, 2000.

Guns don't need to be locked up. When I was a kid, me and other kids knew the difference between real guns and toy guns. No one locked them up back then. Parents nowadays are in a "Catch 22" -- they can't admit they have guns, much less show the kids the guns. So when the kids find the guns, they don't know about the power and responsibility. And all you idiots saying keep them locked up -- what the hell good is a locked up gun? YOU, then, can't get to it in an emergency. And as far as responsibility -- yes, people don't take responsibility, and parents don't for raising their litters properly. Why -- because of the constant RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVE barrage of propaganda about family values and marriage -- no sex outside marriage -- and especially no prostitution -- no birth control, no abortion (depending on your brand of religious insanity).

The words "God said so" or "God'll get you" had some power in years past. But people have gotten smarter at least in the religious area, even though no progress (or regression) in the political area, so those words you throw at them HAVE NO POWER anymore. Unless you conservative religious wackos come up with or adopt a morality based on reality instead of religious bushwa, YOUR CAUSE IS LOST. As well as it should be. Now that does not mean that I am a commie pinko liberal fag, thank you. I probably believe more in freedom and responsibility than most of you breast-beaters.

Hint -- Ayn Rand made a good stab at a philosopy and morality -- unfortunately, he orthodox Jewish background expressed out in a sexual morality essentially the same as you Christian wackos. But she defended freedom (and the prerequisite, individualism and atheism) much more consistently than you "pro-lifers" and "drug warriors" (BTW, Rand was as down on drugs and rock and roll as any of you -- but didn't think the government had to "pass a law" for every one of her and your pet peeves.)

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 01, 2000.

You know who I feel sorry for? The poor sap who will have to try and persuade the shooter that what he did was wrong. Picture her patiently trying to explain why we don't use violence to resolve arguments, as the kid screams in bored frustration and demands to be re-immersed in his familiar culture of domination and acquisition (think Pokemon).

Substituting for good parenting with a TV diet of consequence free violence makes for violent kids. It's that simple. We are a savage animal, unless taught otherwise.

-- - (-@-.-), March 01, 2000.

---it's really strange. have to agree on "back then". We grew up with guns in the house, and as far as I know, all my friends did, too. Don't recall any screwups, either local or on the news. Of course, nowadays, while gone, it is good advice to keep them locked up, so they will not get stolen, but I think that we will see an emergency order or hard push in congress for really restrictive laws, like no loaded guns anytime while not actively hunting or sport shooting, always have trigger locks on them when not in use, more restrictions on types, etc, etc, all leading to outright banning for the "common people", leaving rich people, politicians, and celebrities as the only ones deemed "human and important enough" to have personal firearms. I have no idea in this case, but I firmly believe that some of these "children and guns" incidents are artificially contrived, that they are set up, brainwashed, drugged, led, whatever-controlled by agents of rogue elements of the State to promote the disarming agenda. The odor of herds of rats is over powering.

-- watchout (policestate@coming.soon.near.your.neighborhood), March 01, 2000.

John Galt and watchout...

Ditto what they said.

-- Longshot (longshot911@email.com), March 01, 2000.

Im led to believe that the 6-year-old shooter is black. Apparently the boys father is currently in jail (has been for some time) and the gun was stolen last year. In a search of the boys home the authorities found a stolen shotgun and some other suspicious items yet to be identified. The little girl and boy were reported to have been involved in a playground confrontation of sorts the previous day. Why Ill bet she called him the N word and he came back and shot her. Hang on there good people of Flint, can Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton be far behind? This one will be a classic, as any inference of race will be played to the hilt. Take your time on this one folks, read the facts and draw your own conclusions.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 01, 2000.

http://www.newsday.com/ap/national/ap262.htm

Go there and you will read that this boy's father is in jail. His mother and an "uncle" live with him, but their house is called by a policeman "a flophouse" because many people come and go. There are drugs involved. The gun the child used was stolen. They found a stolen shotgun there also.

This is a matter of a child being left alone to create his own rules and standards, apparently, what we'd call "dragged up" versus brought up. He is as much a victim of family breakdown and lack of morals, plus of the modern violent media, as was the poor child he killed.

We don't need to control guns. We need to build a decent society again.

And to the previous poster: you've posted this same thing TWICE today. You really must be terribly bigotted, because we have NO idea in the world the color of this child! I hope you have to eat your words.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), March 01, 2000.

The person who mentioned race was responding to my question on another thread. And yeah, it IS relevant to this case. I believe that's why there's so little information coming out, because everyone wants to hush it up.

I'd be willing to bet the shooter was black, that the "N" word was involved in some way, & that the kid was a chronic & known hazard who could not be removed from the school for political reasons.

-- but we'll (find@out.eventually), March 01, 2000.

There's plenty of information available, but the child's name is being withheld in the media because he is a minor. That's about all that being withheld, however:

Too Young to Charge

Prosecutors to Pursue Those Who Let Gun Fall into Boys Hands

Kayla Rolland, 6, died half an hour after a classmate allegedly shot her with a .32-caliber pistol. (Paul Sancya/AP Photo) March 1  Prosecutors today said the 6-year-old boy believed responsible for the fatal shooting of an elementary school classmate lived in a flophouse and used a stolen handgun he found in a bedroom there.

Its our understanding, from the police investigation, that this gun was obtained from a bedroom under some blankets which had been left laying, apparently loaded, in this bedroom, Genesee County Prosecutor Arthur A. Busch said.

Police say the boy is too young to face criminal charges and that they instead are focusing on how the child got the gun used in the killing, which may have occurred as a result of a playground scuffle. Were looking to see how that kid got that gun and if we get to that person we will prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, Busch told ABCNEWS Good Morning America.

The gun had been reported stolen in December from the Mt. Morris area, hit hard by cutbacks in the area by the automotive industry, according to prosecutors. Tuesday night, investigators found another stolen firearm  a 12-gauge shotgun  and drugs in the boys home.

The boys jailed father told a sheriff he had a sickening feeling his son was involved when he heard about the shooting. Police arrested the boys uncle, Sirmarcus B. Winfrey, on an outstanding felony warrant late Tuesday and planned to question him about the shotgun, Busch said. The boy and his brother had been staying for about two weeks with Winfrey, their mothers brother, after the mother had been evicted from her home, Busch said. There were people coming and going from this house, Busch said earlier. When police went to the house there were several people just hanging out. I call it a flophouse.

Police also said they were seeking another person for questioning about the handgun used in the shooting, but they would release no other details. The Flint Journal said police were seeking a 19-year-old man who was believed to be a roommate of the uncle.

[snip]

The victims father, Ricky Rolland, says he believes the boy did know what he was doing. He believes the boy went home after the playground scuffle between the two on Monday and got a gun to shoot his daughter...

Dad's in jail. Uncle's picked up on a warrant. Living in a flophouse with all kinds of lowlifes hangin' out. Angry at everyone about everything. Seeing plenty of examples in real life and in entertainment about what you're supposed to do when someone disses you. You find yourself a loaded gun and you "take care of business".

You're 6 years old, and your world has let you become a gangsta when you've barely begun to live, and a little girl is now dead because she got into a playground scuffle with you that would have been forgotten next week.

This is sad beyond words...

-- DeeEmBee (macbeth1@pacbell.net), March 01, 2000.

Do not forget that children at that age will act as they have seen the adults in their lives do. The shooter reportedly pointed the gun at on girl and said "I hate you!" before he pointed at the second girl and shot her. I have to wonder how many times he had seen this act in his home life.

And this was not his first incidence of violent behavior at school (and he's barely halfway through his first year!). Possibly this is a child who was born to a drug-abusing mother to be demonstrating such behavior problems as age six.

The person who left that (stolen) gun out where the child found it deserves to be charged. But those people who provided a home role model image of urban street gang behavior deserve to be charged as well.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 01, 2000.

Elaine, why are you so upset and angry with me? I simply posted factual information that has been all over the news. Why would you have me eat my words? I will admit to being very upset at this situation but can you imagine the meltdown we would be seeing if the boy was white and the girl was black? As much as I would like to ignore the race issue here my sensitivities will not allow that to happen. I envy your ability to go color blind but please dont expect that attitude from everybody. The more details that emerge the more disgusted I become. Political correctness needs a kick in the ass.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), March 01, 2000.

"I have allowed my 6 year old son to watch South Park."

Sheez vern...

.....And you expect people to listen to you on who to vote for?! Certainly not with that kind of judgement...

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), March 01, 2000.

RA Your guess that the boy is black is correct. They showed his uncle being arrested on Fox News and he is black so I would assume the boy is black.

For fear of severe misinterpretations of anything I might say about this I will stand mute and become a good little sheeple (temporarally).

-- Lucy (lifeisgoodhere@webtv.net), March 01, 2000.

As many of you know, I haven't posted to this forum much lately. In my view, "lately" extends back to the Summer of 1999, when I said my official farewells.

This thread, however, caught my eye for a number of reasons, earlier today. I was tempted to post this morning, but listened to that inner voice of reason, in order to allow events to play out a bit.

This particular incident has hit close to home for me, for a number of reasons:

1) There is a 100% possibility that the grandparents of both children involved--possibly the parents as well--upon hearing my "real" name, would know immediately who I am. Why? I came into their living rooms every evening and brought them the news via television for several years. Over time, I may have interviewed them or some of their neighbors. There is an additional possibility that--as young children--some of the young adults in this particular community may have asked me for autographs at "anti-drug" rallies, etc. In short, I KNOW this community, that is now in the process of becoming a "poster-child" for school violence.

2) With regard to the "race" issue, I had a feeling--deep in my heart--hours before I saw the first suspect arrested on television on the noon news today, that the "shooter" was black. No one had to tell me. I just knew. The clues were cryptic in the Detroit newspapers today, but they were there. But you know what? It doesn't matter. What matters--and will continue to matter--is why that little boy decided to bring a gun to school, and the family circumstances that allowed him to not only have access to a loaded weapon, but walk out the door with it. That's all that matters. Period. I was very proud of the way the prosecutor handled the press conference today. He seems like a good man, who is seeking justice combined with compassion.

3) I have a child who attends a public school. Not just any old school, mind you. My child attends a public school (and yes--it's a charter school) that offers NO hot-lunch program, NO school buses, etc. In order for my child to attend this school, I must make the drive every morning and again in the afternoon. The school is nearly 20 miles away. Why do I and other parents do it? Simple. Because the school stresses moral values along with academics. Even so, today, because of the Mt. Morris incident, I had to explain to my child why nothing like that would ever happen at our school. (Now, do I KNOW it will not happen? No. But, am I going to be that blunt with a 9 year old? No.) Bottom line: I told my child the reason why nothing like that would ever happen at our school is quite simple:

Every child who attends our school is a product of a family who cares deeply about his or her success in life, and understands that education is the key to success. In short, this school is not a substitute for a "babysitter." In contrast, my gut feeling is that the "shooter's" family sent him off every day without much supervision, expecting that he would be "minded" at school. I could be wrong, but if I'm right, what a sad, sad situation.

Having said that, I need to add that I feel very badly for the families of both children involved in this mess. It's a tragedy all the way around. If you feel the same, please be kind in your thoughts and subsequent postings to this thread.

:(

'Just my two cents. Sorry for the waste of your time if you perceive this thus.

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 02, 2000.

By the way, here's the latest:

:(

Six-Year-Old Shooter Questioned

By NEDRA PICKLER .c The Associated Press

MOUNT MORRIS TOWNSHIP, Mich. (March 1) - The 6-year-old boy who killed a first-grade classmate used a stolen semiautomatic gun he apparently discovered loaded and lying around in a bedroom at the ''flophouse'' where he was living, investigators said Wednesday.

The boy was questioned again Wednesday and told investigators that the shooting was an accident and that he had only been trying to scare the girl, Police Chief Eric King said. The boy is too young to understand what he was doing, and probably won't be charged, the prosecutor said.

''He is a victim in many ways,'' Genesee County Prosecutor Arthur Busch said. ''It is very sad. We need to put our arms around him and love him.''

Authorities focused on possible charges against any adults who gave the boy access to the .32-caliber pistol he used to shoot 6-year-old Kayla Rolland on Tuesday morning, a day after the two apparently had scuffled on the playground at Buell Elementary School.

After the shooting, the boy put the gun in his desk and went to the school office, Superintendent Ira Rutherford said. When police first questioned him, King said, he ''sat there drawing pictures.''

Busch said the house where the boy and his 8-year-old brother were staying with an uncle was frequented by strangers, and the boy's father - who is in jail for a parole violation - told the sheriff that people at the house traded crack cocaine for guns.

The father, Dedric Owens, was let out of jail Wednesday to attend a court hearing in Flint with the boy's mother, Tamarla Owens. The father apologized for the shooting and asked for custody of the boy, his brother and his sister, but the judge ordered the children into a maternal aunt's custody for now.

''I feel bad for the other family. I wish it would've never have happened,'' Dedric Owens said. ''I will do anything to get my kids back.''

The boy and his brother had been staying for about two weeks with the uncle - their mother's brother - after the mother had been evicted from her home, Busch said. It was unclear where the sister had been staying.

The ramshackle house is surrounded by mud-caked trash, and the front yard is cluttered with an empty vodka bottle and a rusting black Camaro. The home has tattered and stained curtains, and fluttering plastic garbage bags taped over broken windows. No one answered the door Wednesday.

The uncle, Sirmarcus B. Winfrey, was arrested Tuesday night on an outstanding warrant on charges of receiving stolen property and was to be questioned, police said. A second man, who authorities believe once had the gun used in the shooting, turned himself in Wednesday for questioning and was jailed on outstanding warrants and ''miscellaneous charges,'' Busch said.

Busch said investigators believe the semiautomatic gun used in the shooting had been left, apparently loaded, under some blankets in a bedroom at the house. Investigators also found a stolen 12-gauge shotgun and drugs in the house, the prosecutor said.

Outside the school Wednesday, mourners created memorials of candles, flowers and cards for Kayla, who died a half-hour after she was shot once in the chest. Classes were canceled for the day, but counselors were on hand for anyone who needed them. School was also canceled for Thursday.

Sheila Alger and her 4-year-old son, Austin, placed a teddy bear at the school's front door. ''He doesn't understand, and I don't think other kids do,'' Alger said. ''I don't think the boy who did it understands.''

Police said they had gotten conflicting stories from the young witnesses about what exactly happened inside Room 6. Some said the boy pointed the gun at others first; others said he didn't. Some reported that he said something to Kayla first; others said he said nothing.

''The witnesses are little kids,'' King said.

The police chief said three bullets apparently had been in the gun before it was fired, rather than one, as authorities said previously. When the weapon was recovered, officers found one spent casing, one bullet in the chamber and one bullet in the clip, he said.

The chief also said there may have been as many as seven children in the classroom when the shooting occurred, rather than five as first believed.

The boy's father served two years in prison on a burglary conviction and is now serving time in the county jail for an alleged parole violation. Owens, 29, told the sheriff that his son had been suspended from school for fighting and for stabbing a girl with a pencil.

Owens heard about Tuesday's shooting from a cellmate and ''a cold, sinking feeling came over him because he knew it was his son,'' Sheriff Robert J. Pickell said. ''He said (his son) liked to watch the violent movies, the television shows.''

The sheriff said Owens told him that when he asked his son why he fought with other children, the boy ''told him that he hated them.''

And Pickell said that although the father told him ''he'd never seen the .32-caliber weapon the boy used,'' people in the house would ''trade crack for weapons or any kind of merchandise.''

''There were people coming and going from this house,'' Busch said. When police went there, ''there were several people just hanging out. I call it a flophouse.''

The boy is the youngest suspect in the deadly school shootings that have rocked the nation over the past three years. In 1998, two boys, 11 and 13, opened fire at a school in Jonesboro, Ark., killing five.

Chris De Witt, spokesman for Michigan Attorney General Jennifer Granholm, said under previous court decisions, a 6-year-old cannot be tried for murder in Michigan. He said the law allows murder charges against a 7-year-old.

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 02, 2000.

Because of conservative christians -- one little life trashed by one life that never should have existed. Because of right wing cranks opposing sex education, birth control and ABORTION, some dim-wit crack ho gives birth instead of being mentally and, perhaps, economically able to get an abortion. Notice, all you religious cranks -- you cannot eliminate "fornication". You and your religions have been harping on the subject for 10,000 years or more, and you haven't succeeded yet. The best you can do is to mitigate the negative consequences when a pregancy is unwanted. ABORTION. ABORTION. ABORTION. ABORTION. ABORTION. ABORTION.

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 02, 2000.

A: Abortion has been safe, legal & affordable in the US for some years now. If the boy's mama had wanted to abort him, or give him up for adoption, she could have, easily enough. For whatever reason, she chose not to. Birth control is also available everywhere & easy to use.

If these things were forbidden or unavailable, you might have some point. Since they're not, your statement makes no sense at all. Widespread availability of birth control & abortion were supposed to PREVENT these things from happening. They don't. They're a failure. Accept it.

-- too bad (about@all.this), March 02, 2000.

too bad: Yes, it is legal -- at the moment -- but could be illegal after any election, again. It is barely legal, and too much red tape, and still stigmatized. Due to the untiring efforts of moral fascists.

Yes, crack momma could have used birth control, if she didn't. Yes, she could have got an abortion, if she could have afforded it (or chose to allocate some crack/booze money to that instead of an abortion).

Yet, she didn't -- and I submit that the reason is that most of even the most depraved in the society have qualms about getting an abortion -- DUE TO THE FACT OF AGES OF RELIGIOUS ZEALOTRY AGAINST IT. It's called brainwashing (against it). It's that simple -- get it?

There may have been even some way she could have gotten an abortion free -- but the PSYCHOLOGICAL barriers were probably more of a problem than the financial -- DUE TO THE FACT OF AGES OF RELIGIOUS ZEALOTRY AGAINST IT. It's called brainwashing (against it). It's that simple -- get it?

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 02, 2000.