Q: If gas stays at $2.00 per gallon and don't go down for a while...

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will you be considering something more fuel efficient, or, for those who own large vehicles (SUVs/luxury cars), do you plan to purchase another one, regardless of the cost.

The price hikes are affecting some people more than others, I'm sure. Seems to be a popular conversation topic these days...one guy where I was helping with a server install said he was gonna keep his Durango, due to keeping the kids safe and the ability to haul things. However, he mentioned that if gas prices went to 2.00 and over that he may have to tighten his belt somewhat, for it would affect his discretionary income.

Insights and differing opinions welcome, as long as it's civil and nature in nature, please.

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), February 18, 2000

Answers

ACK...LOUSY CUT AND PASTE JOB...LET'S TRY THAT AGAIN.

If gas stays at $2.00 per gallon and DOESN'T go down for a while... will you be considering something more fuel efficient, or, for those who own large vehicles (SUVs/luxury cars), do you plan to purchase another one, regardless of the cost.

The price hikes are affecting some people more than others, I'm sure. Seems to be a popular conversation topic these days...one guy where I was helping with a server install said he was gonna keep his Durango, due to keeping the kids safe and the ability to haul things. However, he mentioned that if gas prices went to 2.00 and over that he may have to tighten his belt somewhat, for it would affect his discretionary income.

Insights and differing opinions welcome, as long as it's civil and nature in nature, please.

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), February 18, 2000.


We have been driving the Ford Escort a lot. It gets 40mpg, not bad. We only take the van when we have to for number of people or it is just unavoidable because we have to go separate places. We decided to go ahead and get used to driving it everywhere back in December.

If push came to shove, I could ride my bike to the store. It would be any easy ride. I should do it now, but I'm clinging to my lazy American lifestyle as long as possible. :)

-- Just Curious (jnmpow@flash.net), February 18, 2000.


That's a tough call. We just bought outright a pickup truck for hauling stuff, and I'll be damned if I get rid of it now, just because the powers that be are screwing with us again.

I'll use the other car more; one that gets much better mileage. I'd have a good excuse to use the bike more, but it's 7+ miles into town, over up and down hills (ie, tiring). Still, I would consider it if the gas prices are topping $1.50/gal for regular unleaded.

-- Bill (billclo@blazenet.net), February 18, 2000.


Were you around for the 1970s stagflation?

If you were, that's what it'll be like, only worse. Fuel cost increases cascade through EVERY layer of commerce. And they don't take long to do it either.

Damn, I wish we'd stored more gasoline and heating oil.

-- it's a gas (jumpin@jack.flash), February 18, 2000.


What about gas that is transported by trucks. Since the gas is so expensive to haul the gas, couldn't that epotatinate the gas price. I would suspect that Clinton is behind this, except it doesn't help Al or Hilly. Any ideas on who is behind this.

-- ,-, (comma@dash.comma), February 18, 2000.


---actually, just talking about gasoline only, not the ripple effect, every entire dollar increase to me is about 20 more dollars a month increase than what we normally pay, 20 gallons is my rough ball park of average use. If we need to take a trip to atlanta, obviously that figure goes up, so to answer the question, 2$ a gallon won't hurt us much, I made an executive decision last year to not have to commute, even if it meant I made less money, and I've stuck to it so far.

Of course, the ripple effect does exist, so the point is moot, I would imagine that a small family will be shelling out an extra 100 to 200 bucks more a month this summer from the ripple effect if the shortages and price increase continue, from higher manufactureing and shipping costs, and I also expect food prices to really go up.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.


Whoa - Did I hear someone blaming Klintoon and maybe OPEC countries. What has the U.S. done to conserve on energy since the embargo? Not a whole lot. If you want to fingerpoint shove your finger in your chest. U.S. consumers have shown the automakers that we want huge 4000 lb behemoths to drive to the grocery store using the term "safety" as a guilt relief valve.

There are entire states that could run on solar energy and/or wind energy. But we don't have anything like it. Europe has been busy (kind of, a lot more than us anyway) building wind turbines. Since the oil embargo how much progress have we made?

-- Guy Daley (guydaley@bwn.net), February 18, 2000.


Tim,

I'm thinking the ripple effect will have serious impact by summer, if not sooner. We are already cutting non-necessary trips. The family vacation and summer road trips may be curtailed by continued high fuel prices. A 2000 mile camping trip in the Suburban/SUV at $2.00/gallon will cost $300+ for fuel. That's $150 higher than the year before. Definately impacts the happy meal allowance.

Will families choke up and cancel that trip to the video store? How about fast food? We'll be driving the Honda instead and looking for places closer to home to visit.

-- trafficjam (road@construction.ahead), February 18, 2000.


In view of the fact that in a collision between a small car and a larger vehichle or between a small car and a large stationary object, the bigger object wins, I will pay the extra price in gasoline and charge it (in my mind) to insurance.

George

-- George Valentine (georgevalentine@usa.net), February 18, 2000.


Canyonero song from the simpsons...

http://www.swo.net/canyon.wav

-- number six (#@#.com), February 18, 2000.



Hey...there's the Tim I "met" in chat.

In answer to your question, Tim: "No."

I've never STOPPED rationing my gasoline. If I have ONE reason to go to the other side of town, I wait until I have 4-5 reasons before making the trip. [My mom hates that part of me. She always asks when I'll be over for a visit and I tell her that when I have 4 more excuses to go that far, I'll be there.]

Of course the kids are another story, but they buy their own gas for the little Honda they drive. If more than one needs to go somewhere, the other has to put gas in MY car also. [They're old enough to work part-time and drive themselves.]

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), February 18, 2000.


I have to replace my 11-year-old Civic, which is rusting from the salt they use on our roads during the winter. I'm going to buy a Civic or another small car, probably at the end of this month before prices shoot up.

As for higher gas as insurance for SUV birth control, I agree! There are too many mammoth SUVs on the freeway. I don't begrudge them to the parents hauling around an army of little ones, but it wouldn't sadden me to see fewer of their number with only one occupant inside become rarer.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.


We are irrational doomers. Our home and well run on solar. Wood heat and wood cooking stoves with a lifetime supply of wood and backup propane. We produce vegetables, fruit, eggs, milk and a variety of meat. We stored a 12 month pantry, 300 gallons of gas and 50 gallons of kerosene.

I sure hope this oil thang isn't one of those self-fulfilling prophecies we were warned about. Yikes.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), February 18, 2000.


Interesting responses so far. My motive for asking this question is that I'm planning to purchase another car, preferably one with good highway mileage.

I remember the 70's, when the price escalated for fuel-efficient cars...they were hard to find after everyone decided to dump their larger cars as well.

In essence, I'm using this place as a barometer, trying to determine if I have time to save some more for a considerable downpayment, or whether I should make a purchase in the next couple of months...

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), February 18, 2000.


Tim,

I'm buying my car near the end of the month on a weekday. I've saved up most of the cash and will sell my old Civic to a relative, also for cash. I'm going to buy now because I fully expect prices to rise, not only because of increased demand for smaller cars, but also because of slow-downs in shipping for imported auto parts.

If I had to borrow money from the bank, I would not alter my time table. I expect interest rates to rise again soon. If I were financing the purchase through a bank, I would go have a talk with a loan officer soon.

Hope this helps.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.



Two items that may be of use for thought stimulation on this thread:

1) Flexible-fueled (as the mfrs. call it) vehicles are available for purchase in the U.S. This means that these vehicles are able to run on more than one type of fuel, with very little that needs doing to enable this option. An example is a model of the Ford Taurus, which can be run on both gasoline and ethanol. This latter is fuel-grade ethyl alcohol (anywhere from 160-200 proof will do), not to be confused with gasohol, which is only 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline, and well under 1% water (usually much less). Normally, when you want to switch an engine from running on one fuel type to another, it is a bit of a pain in the neck; going from running on gasoline traditionally involved expanding the size of carburetor intake jets by 40%, among other steps. This is supposed to be very simple for these FF vehicles, however. I particularly like the gasoline-alcohol choice concept given my location in Minnesota, as I could produce fuel-grade ethanol if I really HAD to, but coming up with petroleum (in a state basically sans it), refining it into gasoline, etc.?!?

Flexible-fuel use may be best known in the cases of generators that can run on coal and another fuel (NG or some liquid petroleum product is most common, I believe). Also, we've all heard about the interruptible-supply NG/LPG customers in New England switching to using heating oil, thereby exacerbating the diesel fuel shortages/priciness there, given the similiarity of material used for these 2 purposes.

2) On oil supply, never forget about the huge oil shale deposits in the U.S. Without belaboring the details, they hold the equivalents of hundreds of years of world supply. At $20/bbl, OS as a petroleum source is a no-go, but when the $30's become a habit, it starts looking better and better.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), February 18, 2000.


Sorry, but I'd like to see *you* keep a Ford Taurus on the road for 11 years without extensive rebuilding in the 7th year. Their systems are JUNK. That alone outweighs the duel fuel option.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.

kb, I am not pushing the Ford Taurus, only consideration of the usefulness of vehicles with this dual-fuel capability if TSHTF gas supply-wise. FWIW, my wife has exactly the same opinion that you do about Ford cars in general. Now, someone close to me bought a 1988 Ford F150 PICKUP in 1990 with about 40,000 miles on it, driving the hades out of it ever since (odometer rolled over at least twice), and the darned truck is still on the road today! That's a Ford truck, not a Ford car.

Hope that my point is a bit more palatable after this clarification.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafesminnesota@hotmail.com), February 18, 2000.


Point Taken. I ran an F-1 Series pickup for 14 years before I ran out of money to have it overhauled. My cousin dropped a new engine into it and still uses it to haul hay. Too bad Ford doesn't build its cars the same way. I managed to put 100,000 on an Escort, but it was FIX OR REPAIR DAILY. When that car died, I got $60 from the junker. Never was I gladder to dump a vehicle.

Duel fuel is good, but without good mechanics under the hook, buyers are just wasting their money. There'll be gas around. It may go sky high, but it'll be there to some extent. Buy Honda, even used. Mechanics are still and maybe they'll go to duel fuel.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.


Unfortunately, yes and no. I am in the process of putting a truly hellacious motor in my 72 Cutlass daily driver (I expect close to 400hp), and I expect mileage to drop at least a little. Fortunately, converting a car this old to methanol is fairly easy. There was a nice thread about this just over the rollover that I was in, along w/ chuck (a night driver) and a couple of others. If prices don't get better fairly soon, the cutlass will have to find a comfy garage and become a weekender, and I will have to persuade the SO that motorcycles aren't as dangerous as she thinks. She (probably) won't want a bike of her own, so I am thinking of getting her a late-60s-early-70s VW bug. These things get almost 40mpg, are stone-simple to work on, and last forever, not to mention having probably the best parts availability of any small car. Plus they are tougher than they look in an accident, due to the rounded shape and the extremely high-grade steel used in their construction.

Jes' Thinkin'...

-- Little Pig (littlepig@brickhouse.com), February 18, 2000.


--#6 THANKYOU for the cabanero song! that was one of the funniest episodes ever, I'm craking up thinking about it! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), February 18, 2000.

Tim: Don't know how much this helps, but I'll tell you the dull story just the same. I was driving a 1985 Honda Accord with 150K miles on it for the last many years. It was on it's last leg, but I wanted to keep it because I am, shall we say, frugal. (Translation: I'd rather keep the cash in the bank.) Husband INSISTED that it was becoming too dangerous to drive, so he forced me to buy a 1995 Lumina. Was getting ready to cancel the insurance on the Honda & he has announced that he is going to weld the frame securely (?!*) and drive it to work instead of his big Chevy pick-up truck, so the insurance stays on the Honda. Turns out, $ 1.54 for a gallon of gas has made the Honda worth repairing!

-- Daisy Jane (deeekstrand@access1.com), February 19, 2000.

And I'll bet that in three years, that Lumina will need extensive over-hauling (brakes!!), while the Honda (if you kept up with oil changes), will still be running, a little rough, but just-fine-thank- you-very-much.

150K isn't too old for an Accord ... I've seen them go to 250K. Just remember to keep an eye on the fan belt and water pump at 80K and keep up with the oil changes ... that's the secret. Honda engines don't tolerate dirty oil. Treat them well and they'll live for a long, long time.

-- (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 19, 2000.


Change your oil every 3000 miles, and you driving experience will be full of smiles.

Great posts, people :-)

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), February 19, 2000.


Food for thought, perhaps even way off the mark, but for years we here in the great USof A have bragged about how great our economy is...Perhaps it is "their' way of getting back at us? After all, this DOES affect EVERYTHING....glad i got my lil 4 cylinder piece of car which doesnt take much to fill up. BTW, if this does continue, why does greenspun desire to still raise interest rates? IF this continues this will surely pull the economy and the good times down, will it not?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), February 19, 2000.

Has anyone seen the new Honda that is a hybrid gas and electric car that's supposed to get 70 mpg? Anyone know its price tag?

-- Scottsworth (NewEnglander@Ct.com), February 19, 2000.

Scottsworth: Probably around 40-50k. And you'd better hope you don't need repairs. Even if you take it to the dealer (for which privilege you will pay about 10-15% more per hour), the mechanics there won't have an easy time fixing it, because the technology in the hybrids is unlike everything they've learned at Voc/Tech school. Oh sure, in ten years or so, if hybrids remain common, they will know what they are doing, but for now, any powertrain repairs will be slow and dubious.

For all: If you are that concerned about gas prices, look through back issues of Mother Earth News Magazine for an article on a device that catalytically converts vegetable oil so it will run in an unmodified diesel engine. They don't say how it was done (and I suspect the machine uses some material that strips the anti-oxidants out of the oil), but they do give the address for the company that makes the thing, and describe how the authors mounted the machine on a trailer behind their diesel RV, and traveled across the country by filling up at fast fod joints. The only downsides I can see are the initial investment in the converter (probably about $2000) and the fact that your car will always smell like a french fry. If, as the article says, the process is truly catalytic, you should never need to replace the catalyst, but if you do, I suspect some examination will show you how to do it without having to buy more from the company. The upside is that you will probably make back your investment on the converter through lower fuel cost, since you can probably buy the stuff on the cheap from your local McDonalds or Burger King, who normally have to pay to have their used fry oil picked up. You should be able to get 50-gallon drums for very little, and run it through the machine. I don't know who makes the thing, and have no personal stake in this other than that I plan to buy one also, and if enough people buy it, the price may come down. As an interesting side note, the diesel engine was originally designed to run on coal dust, since that is (or was) very common in Germany. This proved to be unworkable, as the dust clogged up the fuel system. When Dr. Diesel demonstrated the motor, he astonished viewers by running it on Peanut oil (unrefined, wouldn't work on today's engines due to the finer tolerances in the engine). The decision to run it on petroleum was based on the (at the time) greater availability and much lower price of petroleum. Since then, petroleum has far outstripped the cost of producing vegetable oil, and has been discovered to be an apparently non-renewable resource. Vegetable oil can be produced in large quantities by almost anyone, and can be dumped anywhere. Also, check out an initiative in Colorado to use vegetable oils for lubrication in engines. A scientist there has apparently solved the problem of using v. oil in the crankcase. Earlier studies showed that the oil would oxidize and turn into sludge after onlty a few hours when it hit the superhot bottoms of the pistons. This scientist discovered that this was due to the ultrapurification thought to be necessary to use the oil in this manner. Apparently the purification stripped out the anti-oxidants. Now, he has run his car for over 10,000 miles on the stuff, with regular oil-change intervals, and has had no problems. he reports cleaner emissions, slightly better gas mileage, easier clean-up, and lower cost. The used oil can simply be dumped on the ground, and is about as toxic as maple syrup. The Colorado state gov't will be using vegetable oil in a large percentage of their fleet to see if it is cost-effective on a larger scale. If things work out, it would probably be prudent to start doing this. The materials can be home-produced, and are renewable. All you need is a diesel-powered vehicle. I personally want to get a used Dodge (usually I am a GM guy, but those Cummins engines look really nice) with the Cummins Diesel 6, and run it this way. Totally environmentally friendly, and cheap to boot.

Jes Thinkin'...

-- Little Pig (littlepig@brickhouse.com), February 22, 2000.


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