"This leads me to believe, Craig, that possibly you're not just a concerned citizen. It leads me to believe that you have professional interests in mind, and that you personally benefit from sprawl: Are you a developer? Land prospector? Road builder? Auto-industry employee? Do you work for a developer or the auto industry in some capacity? Do tell! "

I didn't answer this on the original thread because to do so would have diverted the topic from SmartGrowth, to who I was and what my motivations is. That may indeed be the intent of the poster. But since I also don't want the thread to be diverted by allegations that I was afraid to respond to this ad hominem attack, I opened up THIS thread to address the questions raised.

First of all, I AM a concerned citizen. I grew up in this area, and am concerned about the direction it is going with regard to transportation. I developed some knowledge of logistics issues while working for the Air Force Logistics Command as a program manager. Getting people and materiel from point "a" to point "b" isn't necessarily rocket science. Armies have been doing it for years. The Interstate Freeway System was conceived by Dwight D. Eisenhower, himself a logistician.

Do I benefit from sprawl? Sure. I live outside of the urban growth management area. I keep getting further and further out. When I grew up in Federal Way, it was rural (we had two horses and two cattle). When I retire, I'll probably go out to the Olympic peninsula, or maybe the San Juans. I don't have any economic interest in transportation, other than being tired of seeing politicians waste my tax money.

So there, CS, hope you're satisfied.

Why don't you tell us a little about yourself now?

the craigster

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), February 16, 2000

Answers

Aha! So Craig is (basically) a traffic engineer by trade?

That may be the source of our feud.

Your background is traffic. Thus, you tend to approach all planning problems from the perspective of an automobile and moving the most amount of traffic from point A to point B in the quickest time.

Traffic engineers make lousy town planners. And even worse architects.

My background is neighborhood planning. Thus, I tend to approach all planning problems from the perspective of a RESIDENT - a PERSON. I am more concerned about what people do once they LEAVE their car, and how they live OUTSIDE their car. Forty-lane freeways and acres of surface parking are enemies to humans, and so I am thus against them too.

Neighborhood planners are often at odds with traffic engineers. Traffic engineers want to build for the most amount of traffic possible, while neighborhood planners are more concerned about quality-of-life issues. They don't mix well.

So in the big picture, I'll take quality of life. You obviously have not.

-- Common Sense (1@hotmail.com), February 16, 2000.

"Aha! So Craig is (basically) a traffic engineer by trade? " I didn't say that.

"That may be the source of our feud. " I wasn't aware that we were having a feud. I'm just trying to discuss logistics.

"Traffic engineers make lousy town planners." Wouldn't know.

"And even worse architects. " Wouldn't surprise me a bit. We send people to colleges of architecture to learn architecture.

"So in the big picture, I'll take quality of life. " Me too. That's why I've always stuck to rural areas, suburbs, and small towns whenever possible.

But it would seem that YOU, not me, are the one with a vested interest in making SmartGrowth work.

And if you DO believe in SmartGrowth, you should certainly be able to answer the question that was the issue in the other thread. How do you get less congestion out of more population density when even the densest urban areas in this country don't have the transit market share you would need to offset the increased transportation requirements of the increased density? WHY NOT JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION rather than engaging in character assassination and ad hominem attacks?

Are you an architect? I have several friends that are architects. All of THEM can do long division. Or are you a socilogy major?

-- (craigcar@crosswinds.net), February 16, 2000.

Mr. C.S.'s opinion of the use of traffic engineers is enlightening. If town planning doesn't include full participitation from those trained in the discipline of traffic control and movement, you will inevitably get the gridlock horror we now enjoy. His approach makes about as much sense as saying we don't want trained aeronautical engineers designing airplanes or bridge designers designing bridges. Or maybe if we didn't let automobile designers in on the process of designing cars we would now have the mythical electric vehicle that gets 500 miles on a $5.00 battery with a 10 minute charge.

-- Albert Fosha (AFosha@aol.com), February 17, 2000.

Al:

Like Craig and Zowie, you seem to intentionally go out-of-your-way to misunderstand my postings.

But what else should I expect from a forum designed specifically to attract 695 advocates?

Since I must be off to my job for the rest of the day, I unfortunately don't have the time to re-write my postings right now. Maybe later tonight when I get off work. . .

-- Common Sense (1@hotmail.com), February 17, 2000.

Let's see:

[Like Craig and Zowie, you seem to intentionally go out-of-your-way to misunderstand my postings.] An insult (and a three for the price of one, at that).

[But what else should I expect from a forum designed specifically to attract 695 advocates?] Insulting a group (and the group apparently comprises a MAJORITY of Washington voters, since the initiative passed).

[Since I must be off to my job for the rest of the day, I unfortunately don't have the time to re-write my postings right now. Maybe later tonight when I get off work. . . ] An excuse.

Gee CS, thanks for your wonderful contribution to an informed dialogue.

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), February 17, 2000.

I've reread the original message from Common Sense trying to see where I misinterpreted it, and am rather at a loss to discover where I went wrong. Perhaps I took his criticism of traffic engineers to be more general than was meant, and if so Let me apologize. But he really didn't have too many nice things to say about that particular disciplin.

Having said that, please let me make one more comment regarding this thread. If town planners and/or neighborhood planners are responsible for the Bellevue/Redmond planning, they have much to answer for. Their only criteria seems to have been "how much additional tax base can we bring in, and lets do it without spending a dime on traffic. To Hell with the neighborhoods."

-- Albert Fosha (AFosha@aol.com), February 18, 2000.