Just picked this up off a previously deleted post, to pursue further: how come after almost 50 years of sightings and abductions no one has ever brought back a verifiable souvenir from one -- you know, like even a small piece of one made of kryptonite or something ?? How come no one wants to discuss this seemingly simple aspect ?

-- Well ? (you_guessit@???.net), February 13, 2000

Answers

What on earth would it prove if we did...?

We have a whole pile of moon rocks, but that doesn't prevent some folks from believing that we never reached the moon.

If a person sincerely doesn't wish to believe something, proof of any kind is simply irrelevant. (I learned this by debating with atheists.)

-- but you (already@know.that), February 13, 2000.

Lots of "samples" have found their way to the surface. Some have been successfully debunked, and others have been vanished.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 13, 2000.

Gee...I cant seem to find any physical artifacts of "mind" or "God" or "love" or "the square root of -1" so I guess those concepts dont exist either.

-- Zebcor (@ .), February 13, 2000.

Hey,

How about proof chemtrails don't exist?

How about proof Y2K hasn't substantially changed day to day life?

There are two things you could "prove" to the unbeliever with tools and evidence available right now. But it wouldn't change too many minds.

There are plenty of people who derive their significance from believing in nonsense, and believing it against all arguments and evidence to the contrary. In fact, a large part of their significance is in owning a belief system that allows them to feel they are the real "insiders" for the truth, and all others are foolish sheep. For these wretched folk, the scientific method is anathema, and doom for the sheep is ever around the corner, at which point the true insiders will have their ultimate triumph.

And so the Y2K forum board staggers on, long after it's original raison d'etre has withered away. But hey, it's fun, ain't it? And even aside from the comedy, the sheer challenge of taking on a flat- earther is entertaining.

-- Imso (lame@prepped.com), February 13, 2000.

I tend to be of the belief that acts attributed to ET's are destructive. I see them as either evil men or possibly demonic. I don't buy into any altruistic fatherly ET types in the least. Anyway, here is an interesting post to chew over. I don't agree with all of it, but it certainly raises interesting conversation I think:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=1519

The Great Deception

Posted By: GrayFriar

Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000, at 9:23 a.m.

Christian News at Worthy News THEY'RE BACK!

UFO'S: PRELUDE TO INVASION BY NEW AGE DEITY?

When news came across the wire recently that police officers in several Illinois counties witnessed an unidentified flying object the size of a three-story house, and that one of them had snapped a Polariod of the triangular object, I sat up an took notice. Unlike many UFO buffs, law enforcement personnel are credible, trained observers. The FBI and the National Institute for Discovery Science are following up on the as yet undetermined phenomenon.

As a Christian researcher and author of two books on the New Age, I find the increasing regularity of UFO sightings prophetically intriguing. This is because a growing doctrine within the New Age Movement claims that the gods of mythology and the human race as we know it today, is the direct result of extra-terrestrial "UFO" activity.

In the introduction to his best selling book, Chariots of the Gods, Erich von Daniken, who, it might be argued, is one of the fathers of the New Age Movement as it relates to ufology, said:

"I claim that our forefathers received visits from the universe in the remote past, even though I do not yet know who these extra- terrestrial intelligences were or from which planet they came. I nevertheless proclaim that these "strangers" annihilated part of mankind existing at the time and produced a new, perhaps the first, homo sapiens."

As was illustrated in the Hollywood films Contact, and Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, Erich von Daniken's hypothesis took America by storm in the 1960's with the proposition that mankind was possibly the offspring of an ancient, perhaps ongoing, extra- terrestrial experiment. New Age ufologists like Daniken also see the gods of mythology as evidence of, and a reaction to, an encounter with other worldly beings. They claim that ancient men would have considered space travelers as gods and would have recorded their arrival, their experiments, and their departure, in hieroglyphs, megaliths, and stone tablets, as a "supernatural" encounter between gods and men.

Mr. Daniken continues:

"While [the] spaceship disappears again into the mists of the universe our friends will talk about the miracle--"The gods were here!" They will make a record of what happened: uncanny, weird, miraculas. Then their texts will relate--and drawings will show--that gods in golden clothes were there in a flying boat that landed with a tremendous din. They will write about chariots which the gods drove over land and sea, and of terrifying weapons that were like lightning, and they will recount that the gods promised to return. They will hammer and chisel in the rock pictures of what they had seen."

Von Daniken speculates that the odd appearance of some of the gods depicted in various hieroglyphs (human-like creatures with falcon heads; lions with heads of bulls, etc) could be viewed as evidence that "aliens" conducted experiments of cloning and cross-mutating both ancient people and animals. Some people accept this part of Daniken's hypothesis as a humanistic alternative to the Biblical account of creation. It's uncertain how many people believe such a theory, but a full eighty percent of Americans claim they believe in the possibility of extra-terrestrial life. Some, like the 39 members of the Heaven's Gate cult that committed suicide in Rancho Santa Fe, California and believed they were being summoned by a UFO trailing the Hale-Bopp Comet, subscribe to an eerie amalgam of mysticism and conventional religion. Not suprisingly, the growing interest in UFOs and the paranormal has given birth to a host of popular television specials and weekly programs depicting such otherworld creatures and those who claim to have encountered them.

One of the more disturbing aspects of UFO phenomena are the reports, which continue to come in from around the world, of nightime abductions by small wide-eyed creatures who supposedly pilot UFOs and conduct various medical experiments on their abductees. The New Age Movement argues that such activity would be proof of an ongoing experiment between humans and aliens, and they note that the radical aspects of such experiments have included impregnating abductees and later returning to remove the hybrid embryos.

THE HISTORICAL RECORD

Scripture and extra biblical legends tell of a visitation of the earth by heavenly beings. Some of the references include:

7 The Egyptian people originally migrated from the biblical land of Shin'ar, also known as the Land of the Watchers (one of the ancient names of the mysterious visitors). The Egyptians called it Ta Neter-- The Land of the Watchers "from which the gods came into Egypt." 7 The Sumerian scribes refered to the watchers as Anunnaki, which, they said, "came from Nibiru" to judge/rule the inhabitants of the earth. Some have interpreted Nibiru as "a distant planet", but the actual translation is, "Those Who from Heaven to Earth Came." 7 In the Bible references are made to the Anakim and to the Nephilm also meaning those who came from Heaven to Earth. 7 In the Book of the Dead there are prayers for deliverance from the Watchers (Tchatcha, the princes of Osiris) , who came from Ta-Ur, the "Far Away Land." 7 In the Book of Jubilees the Watchers are compared to the "supernatural beings" mentioned in the sixth chapter of Genesis as having come down from heaven to cohabit with women, a union ultimately leading to the birth of the giants. 7 From the Dead Sea Scrolls (Genesis Apocryphon) we learn that 200 of a larger group of powerful angels called "Watchers" departed from the higher Heavens and sinned. The fallen class of Watchers are considered by some to be the creatures refered to in the Book of Jude as the "angels which kept not their first estate" who are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Ancient Chinese folklore tells of visitations from a distant land of "flying carts." 7 A Sanskrit text--the Drona Parva, documented "dogfights" by extraterrestrial visitors in flying machines.

But men like Von Daniken claim that the Bible is their best advocate and the "greatest UFO book of all time!" The "wheel" in Ezekiel 1:15, the "pillar of cloud" in Exodus 13:21-22, the giants of Genesis 6:4, and Elijah's "chariot of fire" (2 Kgs 2:11), are all viewed as examples of "UFO" activity by New Agers.

But is the record found in Genesis chapter six a description of reproductive experiments conducted by advanced extra-terrestrial creatures? Or is it the retelling of something even more sinister?

A CHRISTIAN ANALYSIS VS THE NEW AGE VIEW

Regardless of one's interpretation of the ancient records, one fact remains. Thousands of years ago heavenly beings visited the earth. They engaged in procreative experiments resulting in a race of mutant beings called nepheli. The final result appears to have been an immediate judgment from God, who ordered Israel to destroy the nepheli and it's descendants. Thousands of years later Jesus spoke of the events occuring during the days of Noah as being comparable to the days leading up to the rapture of the Church (Matthew 24). This prophecy is remarkable when one realizes that after God judged the celestial beings who cohabited with the Noahtic women, all such comparable activity apparently ceased until about the year 1940. Then, following the infamous Roswell incident which occured in New Mexico in 1947, modern people from around the world began encountering strange creatures conducting procreative experiments with increasing regularity.

One is forced to wonder: What's going on? Who are these creatures? Are the current "UFO" visitors the same as those of Noah's day? If so, what is this reproductive experimentation about?

Perhaps the answer to this question (the Christian's analysis vs the New Age view on "aliens") is hidden in the first six chapters of Genesis. Very soon after the Fall of man we find in Genesis 3:15 the protoevangelium (the promise that the seed of the woman would someday bring forth a child [Jesus] capable of destroying the serpent's [Satan's] power). In response to the promise, supernatural beings (fallen angels?) appeared from the heavens and performed reproductive experiments on human women (Genesis chapter six). Was Satan attempting to intercept, pollute, and thereby destroy the righteous seed? Was he trying to cut off the birth line of the Messiah? Perhaps. Satan's ancient goal included cutting off the line leading to the Messiah. Satan led Pharoah to destroy the Hebrew children so the deliverer might not be born. Herod sought the baby Jesus in the New Testament in order to have Him killed. In Revelation, chapter 12, we see the devil (dragon) waiting to destroy the messianic seed as soon as it is born of the woman.

But Dr. I.D.E. Thomas, in his book, The Omega Conspiracy, suggests that Satan had even bigger plans at work in the sixth chapter of Genesis. He claims that Satan (as opposed to aliens) was trying to produce a race of mutant warriors by breeding fallen angels with women in an effort to exterminate the children of God. From a Christian's point of view this could explain how people like the Sumerians of Mesopotamia, who were enemies of Yahweh, appeared out of nowhere around B.C. 3500, bringing with them a pantheon of deities, the first written language, and a superior knowledge of earth sciences. This may also explain why many of the religions that followed Sumerian mythology, including Greek mythology, emerged from the original idea that powerful beings, with names like "Zeus" and "Apollo," visited the earth, intermarried with women, and fathered half-human children. Dr. Thomas believes recent "UFO" abduction activity may point to the birth of a new race of anti-God warriors, as we approach the end of the age and the coming of Armaggedon.

ENTER LYING WONDERS

A question arises: Does Genesis chapter 6 support the New Age theory that alien creatures traveled from distant planets in UFOs, performed reproductive experiments on women, and were afterward honored in the images and folklore of the gods of mythology? Or, is Dr. I.D.E. Thomas correct in stating that the story in Genesis is a record of fallen angels acting in accord with Satan? What, if anything, could this tell us about the current intersteller phenomena? Are we experiencing an ongoing invasion of earth by intergalactic scientists, or is Satan busy advancing the most sophisticated con game in history?

We know that the rapture of the Church will be accompanied by "...fearful sights and great signs...from heaven" (Lk 21:11). Perhaps Satan is contriving an "alien invasion" to explain the disappearance of so many people at once! If eighty percent of the population believes in the possibility of extra-terrestrial intelligence, wouldn't this be a powerful form of deception? And since New Age theology produces a growing belief among some contemporary church groups that flying saucers will be the method "God" uses to retrieve the Christian community during the Rapture, couldn't the UFO sightings phenomenon play a part in the great deception that will pervade the earth following the Rapture?

We read in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, "And then shall that Wicked [one] be revealed....whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders....And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." The world authorities remaining to make up the governments of the Antichrist will need an explanation for those taken in the Rapture. People from around the world will be missing! Now imagine: If the Rapture was followed by hundreds of "space craft" landing on earth piloted by creatures who appeared to be advanced humanoids, couldn't these beings claim to have removed the Christians into some kind of high-tech "rapture," and simultaneously present their leader (antichrist?) as the messiah? Couldn't they point to ancient mysteries, megaliths, pyramids, and the gods of mythology, as proof of an ancient visitation of planet earth?

The late Pulitzer Prize-winning author and agnostic Carl Sagan was, until his death, working on a screenplay about the ramifications of just such a savior who appears in the coming millennium! Humanists like Mr. Sagan argue that evidence such as the meteorite which has been hypothesized as indicating that microscopic life existed on Mars millions of years ago, is proof that prehistoric life forms (ET's) could have moved throughout the universe for untold millennia.

DID DANIEL KNOW "LYING WONDERS" WERE ENDTIME UFOS?

What are the "lying wonders" referred to in 2 Thessalonians that will accompany the appearing of the Antichrist? According to the Book of Daniel, the Antichrist will "honour the god of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not" (Dan. 11:38). The literal Hebrew translation means "an alien god" (alien to Hebrew culture). Baalhazor, the aforementioned "god of forces," was originally known as the lord of sky and battle. As Baalbamoth he was the lord of the aerial regions. As Baalzebub he was the lord of those who fly, or quickly flit from place to place. In the New Testament the same spirit is referred to as the prince of the powers of the air (aer, circumambient air encompassing the surface of the earth). Therefore, the lying wonders adjoined to the coming of the Antichrist could very well be what we call flying saucers.

The bottom line? Biblical and extra biblical documents offer a startling proposition: While some UFO sightings can be explained as military or naturally occurring phenomena, others cannot. Whatever or whoever they are, the reality of UFO activity can no longer be doubted. One concludes that these beings are either advanced humanoids from outer space, or that this activity signals an ongoing deception of demonic design. If the current UFO activity is demonic and indicates Satan has for centuries planned an "alien" visitation in order to, among other things, explain the rapture of the church, it is reasonable to believe that his plans have heretofore included indoctrination and advanced intelligence. Military invasions always involve preliminary and clandestine maneuvers, and Satan's plans to deceive the past, the present, and the future World Order, would first involve covert strategies of brainwashing, political manipulation, and the positioning of his agents in places of power.

Not long ago people who supported such UFO interpretations were the object of scorn. Because of accumulating evidence and reputable eyewitness accounts, this is no longer the case. That some kind of unexplained phenomenon, called the UFO experience by some, occurs, is beyond question. UFO reports are coming in at the alarming worldwide rate of about six sightings per hour! While I believe the New Age Movement's connection between UFO phenomenon and the origin of man is erroneous, I nevertheless credit New Agers for recognizing the high possibility that UFO activity is perhaps a first step towards developing the schemes of a super intelligent force, a power which may energize the UFO phenomenon today.

What New Agers describe as the goals of a "highly advanced alien civilization," is perhaps better defined as the plotting of evil supernaturalism.

By Thomas Horn

Editor@RaidersNewsUpdate.com www.raidersnewsupdate.com

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 13, 2000.

Hokie-GREAT post. You would love to read Chuck Missler's book "Alien Encounters" if you haven't read it already... more on the same idea (biblical, not new age).

-- lyn (lynhettler@hotmail.com), February 13, 2000.

check out this photo taken, supposedly, on a Navy ship... http://www.setlab.org/images/Secret1.jpg

I just finished reading this book - http://www.aboveblack.com/pa107/

and it's very interesting! I, personally, believe without a doubt that they are demonic - Genesis 6 - judging from that picture...I sure wouldn't want to see one!!!

-- RAT (eyesopen@watcher.com), February 13, 2000.

Chuck Missler has answered a lot of questions I had for years. One subject he spoke about that really blew me away was about the extra long day of Joshua....what a presentation!!

-- Jay Urban (Jayho99@aol.com), February 13, 2000.

What timing I just finished "The Greatest Story Never Told" The author "The Brethen and duaghter of Women" talks about higher beings. Enki is an all powerful God. He created man with the help of Sud. He came back as Jesus. The book mentions how parts of Genesis was changed to maintain order for religous elite. Enki portrayed as the Serpent which is a misnomer. He is all loving. Enlil is evil, otherwise known as Yaweh. May 5, 2000 should be interesting Planetary Alignment.

-- Otis (Otis@sprynet.com), February 13, 2000.

RAT, I'm trippin off your boy's ear; looks like a bad case of hemmorhoids in there!

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), February 13, 2000.

How do you know that someone hasn't brought back a piece of verifiable proof? I think they have, and when it's done it's either debunked as terrestrial, or it "disappears" mysteriously.

As a UFO investigator of 10 years, one thing that I've learned is to never dismiss anything outright. We are dealing with a very unusual phenomenon, and one that doesn't lend itself to our current scientific method very well. We don't have the tools to properly handle it.

This idea that Chuck Missler and others advance that "all" UFO's are demonic is a copout, IMO. Yes, I believe that there is an element of spritual warfare at work in this plane, as there has always been. However, to pigeonhole *all* UFO activity into the demonic realm is an irreponsible and agenda driven fallback. I've seen the damage that is done to Christian people when the demonic explanation doesn't work in stopping or explaining their experiences. We should be keeping our possibilities open to the idea that some UFO's are occuppied by corporeal beings. What their motives are are anyoone's guess, but until we recognize them for what they are, we're never going to get anywhere.

John Cauthen

-- John Cauthen (johnr@cetlink.net), February 14, 2000.

John-as I understand it, Christians inc. Missler do not deny the corporeal beings. Good angels, although spirit beings, frequently manifested as men in scripture. We are assuming these corporal beings are also manifestations of angels-fallen ones. I don't think anybody fully understands how they can move between our three dimensional material world and the heavenly spirit one, but in Gen. 6 they were able to mate with earthly women. Ezekiel's vision of the heavenly angels and the wheel is so similar to UFO encounters that it seems very obvious to me that we are dealing again with an angelic manifstation, although I believe a Satanic kingdom counterpart. Both appear corporally. None of the supposed messages from the aliens bring any glory or testimony to Jesus Christ, unlike the angels that appeared in the new testament and glorified him at his birth and at his grave/resurrection. The messages are all new agey spiritual hog swill.

-- lyn (lynhettler@hotmail.com), February 14, 2000.

---John C. agree with you, there are several different forms of "ufo" type activity, and to make them all fit a preconceived mold is not correct. Incidently, I joined now mostly gone NICAP in 67 after a sighting of approximately 75 yards away distance, with other people, so I have a few more years research to add to the pot here. If anyone wants to read about some artifacts, one quick easy to find story is off of artbells site, do a search on "art's parts", these are metallic alloy samples that were mailed to him anonymously, anyone may read about them and listen to real audio comments and the analysis of what they might be, very interesting.

I had a good friend many years ago, his fathers company was presented with some rather strange wreckage pieces for analysis. They came from the air force. This company's products are high strength, high wear and temperature resistant machined products that are in daily use by untold millions of people around the world, that's all I'm allowed or will say. They are one of the best. They were not able to fully analyse the parts, and the parts were returned to the air force. I could write on this subject for days. Anyone who doesn't think that there's something flying around is a complete ostrich, utterly beyond any redemption, they are the modern equivalent of "flat earther's".

I have in person face to face interviewed military pilots, civilian pilots, military intelligence people, policemen, and a host of civilians over the years, and the consensus is overwhelming for tangible, hard, flying craft. There is also a lot of evidence of not- our-version-of-corporeal-reality type sightings as indicated in above posts, and there' s also some really strange geophysical anomalies, and by far the most fascinating to me is atmospheric residing and transversing biological entities, as in new species, ie, the "rods". Fascinating topic.

--oh, and for the trolls and pollys, I'm not your personal search engine, nor is there any interest on my part trying to "prove" to dolts anything at all, so go find your own links there's thousands upon thousands upon thousands. I doubt if you will ever run out if you start right now and read 24 hours a day. OK, just one, goto The Black Vault and read freedom of information act documents there.

And I also give even less of a care to anyone who doesn't believe any of this at all, that is of zero consequence, as in "byte me".

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), February 14, 2000.

Dear Well?

Please visit Art's Parts for a sample of possible extraterrestrial artifacts, still not fully analyzed after several years....

-- Hillbilly (Hillbilly@possum.creek), February 14, 2000.

Lyn writes:

John-as I understand it, Christians inc. Missler do not deny the corporeal beings. Good angels, although spirit beings, frequently manifested as men in scripture. We are assuming these corporal beings are also manifestations of angels-fallen ones. I don't think anybody fully understands how they can move between our three dimensional material world and the heavenly spirit one, but in Gen. 6 they were able to mate with earthly women. Ezekiel's vision of the heavenly angels and the wheel is so similar to UFO encounters that it seems very obvious to me that we are dealing again with an angelic manifstation, although I believe a Satanic kingdom counterpart. Both appear corporally. None of the supposed messages from the aliens bring any glory or testimony to Jesus Christ, unlike the angels that appeared in the new testament and glorified him at his birth and at his grave/resurrection. The messages are all new agey spiritual hog swill.

Lyn, I have no problem with what you are saying as a possible explanation for some of the activity that's going on. Here again though, you seem to be making a broad application with "all" aliens. I have seen enough evidence to convince me that we are being visited by corporeal extraterrestrial entities from other physical worlds and they are not here as pawns or players in the war between heavenly and satanic forces.

I never said that Missler, et. al. deny that there are corporeal beings visiting earth, but for some reason they want to lump them all into one of two baskets... it simply doesn't work in my experience. Scientifically, it disposes of one possibility right out of the gate. As a Christian, I have to aks myself, why is it that so many of my fellow believers have this need to deny the possibility of created life elsewhere in God's universe.

As for Ezekiel's experience, I don't immediately assume that it was an angelic experience. When I look at biblical accounts of phenomena like this I have to imagine that the descriptions are rather metaphorical because the perceiver doesn't have as broad an experience to describe something like and airborne craft coming to a landing. I'm not saying that was what Ezekiel was seeing, just that I don't think I can safely say what it was, one way or another.

John

Zog,

You make some very good points! We need more people to step up with that sort of attitude about this. It's the only way we're ever going to get the real answers. I think it's starting to happen with the progress that Peter Gersten (CAUS) has made in getting the DOD into court to admit that they are covering up information on UFO's.

I also think that the fortcoming "Mission to Mars" movie is going to open the door to a whole new dialogue. 2000 could be the year of disclosure at long last!

John Cauthen

-- John Cauthen (johnr@cetlink.net), February 14, 2000.

"Well",

I quibble with your subject line "Proof UFOs don't exist". You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with those who say UFOs do exist. When they bring in tangible evidence, then there will be something to discuss. Until then, it's just a fun BS session.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), February 14, 2000.

Nemisis writes:

"Well", I quibble with your subject line "Proof UFOs don't exist". You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with those who say UFOs do exist. When they bring in tangible evidence, then there will be something to discuss. Until then, it's just a fun BS session.

True, you can't prove a negative. The burden of proof in this case is a heavy burden and one that's not going to satisfy everyone no matter what the nature of that evidence. I've seen what I would call tangible evidence, but othes would argue to the contrary. Here again, we don't have room for such an extrordinary phenomena in our current scientific method. I would ask you in this case what it would take to prove the extraterrestrial nature of UFO's to you, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

John

-- John Cauthen (johnr@cetlink.net), February 14, 2000.

Hi John- I asked my husband about your question; he graduated from Westminster seminary, a bastion of traditional reform doctrine. He said that scripture clearly portrays God's eternal purposes as focusing on redeeming a people for himself, and earth as the center of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Therefore, he said he's never heard a theological viewpoint allowing the possibility of another planetary corporal race that could be redeemed....i.e. created beings with sin like us. However, there are corporal created beings that are not part of the redemptive plan or included in the blood scrifice(good angels that never fell, and fallen angels that can't be saved). As to whether a race of intelligent beings, non angelic, could be visiting us, the bible does not say. The verses about all creatures in the heavens praising him are usually taken to mean the ones we know about ( various ranks of angels) as opposed to some ET somewhere. Guess we'll find out. C.S. Lewis' space trilogy is a nice diversion along this line,but I don't think he really believed in Hrosses and sorns out there. I think you need to go back to the original question of the fruit of encounters and these visitations....I've yet to hear of any that in any way centered attention on the Lord. From what I've read (possibly very limited compared to you)without exception the results are spiritual deception. One clarification- it is believed the fallen angels are behind UFO's and also mated in Gen 6, and demons are the lowest class of evil beings, distinct from fallen angels. The best theory seems to be that they are the spirits of the hybrids who perished in the flood, seeking bodies to live in, and will exist until the final judgement. So I would call UFO's satanic- fallen angels under Satan's command in the heavenly realm- but not demons who dwell on earth. Many folks do not class demons with fallen angels, however they originated. Last but not least...behind your thinking is probably the typical view that we are one little speck floating around the universe off in a corner. You might want to look into geocentricity for some fun ( they have web site). The Association of Biblical Astronomy is composed of many genius level astrophysicists, scientists, etc. who believe the bible clearly states that the earth is at the center of the universe, and science confirms it. Gerhardus Bouw published a book on it, there are others as well. When they get into stuff like the uniformity of background radiation in all directions, and the shells of pulsars or quasars or something that ring the earth, and so on, it is fascinating. Solid scientific evidence that earth is right smack in the center. Anyway, nice chatting with you, God bless.........Lyn

-- lyn (lynhettler@hotmail.com), February 14, 2000.

Lyn,

I really appreciate the lengthy and well thought out answer. You and your husband make some very good points, and they are backed up scripturally... I'm a member of a very traditional fundamental church and I understand fully where this is coming from. I'm considered a flake by most of my fellow parishoners, but I also have people coming to me in confidence and telling me things that they don't want to share in the mainstream. They are dealing (in some cases) with issues that they can't explain away with a biblical definition of demons, or fallen angels.

There are cases where I clearly see a demonic influence at work and I refer these people to those in the ministry who are better equipped to deal with these issues. I clearly understand God's purpose as it relates to the electorate on this planet, however, I don't think we can apply our theology as it relates to this planet, and this fallen race. I personally don't expect a corporeal extraterrestrial being to make it their first order of business to announce to whomever they contact, where they stand on our spritituality spectrum. They may have their own sanctions against doing so for whatever reasons.

I really think that we are about to have a fully open discourse on this subject. Keep watching what's happening with Peter Gersten and the CAUS action before the federal court in Arizona right now. The magnitude of the sightings relating to these triangular shaped craft, and the range of events ih which they seem to be players is staggering. I have a problem accepting these as demonic deceptions, although I can't rule that out. Until we have a full accounting and people can speak about what they know without fear of reprisal, we will continue to speculate about this.

As for me, I want the truth, whatever it is... I can handle it. Thanks for the lead to the Geocentricity site, I'll certainly check it out. And let me say again how refreshing I find your attitude about this, and your willingness to discuss it rather than throwing rhetoric and dogma back at me... I get plenty of that from my fellow believers ;-)

John

Hi John- I asked my husband about your question; he graduated from Westminster seminary, a bastion of traditional reform doctrine. He said that scripture clearly portrays God's eternal purposes as focusing on redeeming a people for himself, and earth as the center of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Therefore, he said he's never heard a theological viewpoint allowing the possibility of another planetary corporal race that could be redeemed....i.e. created beings with sin like us. However, there are corporal created beings that are not part of the redemptive plan or included in the blood scrifice(good angels that never fell, and fallen angels that can't be saved). As to whether a race of intelligent beings, non angelic, could be visiting us, the bible does not say. The verses about all creatures in the heavens praising him are usually taken to mean the ones we know about ( various ranks of angels) as opposed to some ET somewhere. Guess we'll find out. C.S. Lewis' space trilogy is a nice diversion along this line,but I don't think he really believed in Hrosses and sorns out there. I think you need to go back to the original question of the fruit of encounters and these visitations....I've yet to hear of any that in any way centered attention on the Lord. From what I've read (possibly very limited compared to you)without exception the results are spiritual deception. One clarification- it is believed the fallen angels are behind UFO's and also mated in Gen 6, and demons are the lowest class of evil beings, distinct from fallen angels. The best theory seems to be that they are the spirits of the hybrids who perished in the flood, seeking bodies to live in, and will exist until the final judgement. So I would call UFO's satanic- fallen angels under Satan's command in the heavenly realm- but not demons who dwell on earth. Many folks do not class demons with fallen angels, however they originated. Last but not least...behind your thinking is probably the typical view that we are one little speck floating around the universe off in a corner. You might want to look into geocentricity for some fun ( they have web site). The Association of Biblical Astronomy is composed of many genius level astrophysicists, scientists, etc. who believe the bible clearly states that the earth is at the center of the universe, and science confirms it. Gerhardus Bouw published a book on it, there are others as well. When they get into stuff like the uniformity of background radiation in all directions, and the shells of pulsars or quasars or something that ring the earth, and so on, it is fascinating. Solid scientific evidence that earth is right smack in the center. Anyway, nice chatting with you, God bless.........Lyn

-- John Cauthen (johnr@cetlink.net), February 14, 2000.

John-thanks for the nice note; this'll get archived in a day or two so if anything interesting on the subject comes up you could post it. I know about the triangular craft sightings but not the Arizona stuff you are referring to; I would be interested in an explanation.

Re. your compliments, we have four boys, (three teens) and that means Star Wars, Star trek, and every sort of outer space computergame. And my niece is an X-files addict and has talked to me constantly about it while going through adolescent rebellion.( really enjoy it myself) So we've had to think through a lot of issues....kids do NOT allow dogma and rhetoric at all. Otherwise I might have been as narrow minded as anybody, ha, so any positive credit goes to them.

Frankly I find myself still thinking through a lot of end time issues inc. this subject. I am totally convinced that when we need to know, we will know. A lot of prophecies may become more clear down the road. I believe the satanic deception will manifest itself obviously through the ET's. The gray areas will become more black and white. The message of the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross will be the real test. Assuming we are near the Lord's return and are thus in a repeat of the days of Noah, I am expecting fallen angel/human hybrids to emerge, if indeed there are not some already around. If you are right about other non-fallen corporal races, they will worship the Lord in truth somehow and we would know it. Satan is such a liar, that even if an ET said they were from some other planet I would never believe it, no matter how convincing they were. Unless they got off the ships and started preaching the gospel I'd be suspicious. Even there, think of that slave girl in Acts who followed Paul around saying these men were showing the way to salvation, and that was a demon.

Re your church, I have been down that road once but now am blessed with the kind of people we can really talk to. It is ironic, but I am finding many unbelievers to be more open and aware of the spiritual realm than some Christians. Sadly, the spirits and energies and philosophies they are into are deception, but genuinely supernatural. Christians who are not willing to wrestle now with some of these issues may not be ready for evangelizing in the days ahead. The subjects my kids bring up are so different than the things I ever had to deal with.

Getting late, must go, God bless. This is my real e-mail, so feel free to forward anything interesting in the future........Lyn

-- lyn (lynhettler@hotmail.com), February 14, 2000.

Lyn writes:

John-thanks for the nice note; this'll get archived in a day or two so if anything interesting on the subject comes up you could post it.

Thanks again Lyn, but I feel odd in doing so because this is really off-topic. For some reason this thread just pushed my button and off I went! ;-)

I know about the triangular craft sightings but not the Arizona stuff you are referring to; I would be interested in an explanation.

This should help with that, go to http://www.caus.org Peter Gersten is suing the Department of Defense for lack of good faith in an FOIA request or series of requeests he's made, in which the DOD disavows any knowledge of triangular black craft. The federal judge did not throw the case out as expected, and it's showtime! Re. your compliments, we have four boys, (three teens) and that means Star Wars, Star trek, and every sort of outer space computergame. And my niece is an X-files addict and has talked to me constantly about it while going through adolescent rebellion.( really enjoy it myself)

I've got four kids, three teens, and we're at that stage. My teenage son and I are big X-Files fans. I think it is a great discussion starter.

So we've had to think through a lot of issues....kids do NOT allow dogma and rhetoric at all. Otherwise I might have been as narrow minded as anybody, ha, so any positive credit goes to them.

I'm more of a spiritual person, so dogma comes hard to me. I have a giff of spritual discernment, which has served me well in my investigations of UFO phenomena.

Frankly I find myself still thinking through a lot of end time issues inc. this subject. I am totally convinced that when we need to know, we will know.

These do seem to be end time issues. I have faith too, that God will provide the answers I need, when I need them. It is this faith that keeps me ticking.

A lot of prophecies may become more clear down the road. I believe the satanic deception will manifest itself obviously through the ET's.

I think it well become manifest in all sorts of ways, ET's included.

The gray areas will become more black and white. The message of the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross will be the real test. Assuming we are near the Lord's return and are thus in a repeat of the days of Noah, I am expecting fallen angel/human hybrids to emerge, if indeed there are not some already around. If you are right about other non-fallen corporal races, they will worship the Lord in truth somehow and we would know it.

This would be very interesting, wouldn't it?

Satan is such a liar, that even if an ET said they were from some other planet I would never believe it, no matter how convincing they were.

I'm confident enough of my faith and the gift that God has given me in this area that I would know the answer to this when it's presented... I'm confident of it.

Unless they got off the ships and started preaching the gospel I'd be suspicious. Even there, think of that slave girl in Acts who followed Paul around saying these men were showing the way to salvation, and that was a demon.

I'm not sure what I would expect or an extraterrestrial race in this sense. Their Gospel may not be quite the same as ours, althought they would share the same Creator. Again, I would have to trust my gift of discernment here, and pray for God's wisdom.

Re your church, I have been down that road once but now am blessed with the kind of people we can really talk to. It is ironic, but I am finding many unbelievers to be more open and aware of the spiritual realm than some Christians. Sadly, the spirits and energies and philosophies they are into are deception, but genuinely supernatural. Christians who are not willing to wrestle now with some of these issues may not be ready for evangelizing in the days ahead. The subjects my kids bring up are so different than the things I ever had to deal with.

True! I'm sure that we are going to be faced with issues that are going to challenge our sprituality more than anything else.

Getting late, must go, God bless. This is my real e-mail, so feel free to forward anything interesting in the future........Lyn

Lyn, it's been a real eye opening exchange. I can't thank you enough for your efforts! You and I weren't the only ones who benefitted from it, I would imagine. May God's blessings be with you!

John Cauthen

I know about the triangular craft sightings but not the Arizona stuff you are referring to; I would be interested in an explanation. Re. your compliments, we have four boys, (three teens) and that means Star Wars, Star trek, and every sort of outer space computergame. And my niece is an X-files addict and has talked to me constantly about it while going through adolescent rebellion.( really enjoy it myself) So we've had to think through a lot of issues....kids do NOT allow dogma and rhetoric at all. Otherwise I might have been as narrow minded as anybody, ha, so any positive credit goes to them.

Frankly I find myself still thinking through a lot of end time issues inc. this subject. I am totally convinced that when we need to know, we will know. A lot of prophecies may become more clear down the road. I believe the satanic deception will manifest itself obviously through the ET's. The gray areas will become more black and white. The message of the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross will be the real test. Assuming we are near the Lord's return and are thus in a repeat of the days of Noah, I am expecting fallen angel/human hybrids to emerge, if indeed there are not some already around. If you are right about other non-fallen corporal races, they will worship the Lord in truth somehow and we would know it. Satan is such a liar, that even if an ET said they were from some other planet I would never believe it, no matter how convincing they were. Unless they got off the ships and started preaching the gospel I'd be suspicious. Even there, think of that slave girl in Acts who followed Paul around saying these men were showing the way to salvation, and that was a demon.

Re your church, I have been down that road once but now am blessed with the kind of people we can really talk to. It is ironic, but I am finding many unbelievers to be more open and aware of the spiritual realm than some Christians. Sadly, the spirits and energies and philosophies they are into are deception, but genuinely supernatural. Christians who are not willing to wrestle now with some of these issues may not be ready for evangelizing in the days ahead. The subjects my kids bring up are so different than the things I ever had to deal with.

Getting late, must go, God bless. This is my real e-mail, so feel free to forward anything interesting in the future........Lyn

-- lyn (lynhettler@hotmail.com), February 14, 2000.

-- John Cauthen (johnr@cetlink.net), February 15, 2000.

--Lyn, the phoenix sightings are some of the most amazing sightings never carried on national media. tens of thousands of people saw this thing. It was huge. I mean A LOT of people saw this thing. The national media doesn't ever cover anything like this. This LARGE as in maybe a mile across craft floated over the city one night and umpteen thousands saw it, it was reported non stop to the police, the media, the air force, you name it and the phones were ringing off the hook. I'll repeat-THE MEDIA IS AND HAS BEEN COMPLETELY CORRUPTED AND MANIPULATED-we are NOT ever told anything even remotely like the truth, and in a lot of cases, decisions are made to completely ignore simply amazing and mind boggling stories, not only ufo's, but such a wide variety of stories as to convince me that there is an agenda, that globalists are in control of the media except for the net for the most part, and that there's a global war coming because of this. Look what happens in china, that's what's going to happen here. China is the globalists pride and joy, the dream state, a completely controlled technological society, using all the tools that american businessmen can come up with for control and surveillance. Yes, in china you are allowed to make some money, as long as you never ever criticize the ruling elite, for any reason at any time. This is what's happening here, and it gets worse daily, with fewer and fewer global news companies owning and controlling more and more of the news outlets.

---If you want to read more about the phoenix incident, either goto CAUS's page, or just do a web search on "The Phoenix Lights", it's astonishing. then you might want to look into the mexico city sightings, filmed live by over 300 different video cameras, and untold thousdands of stills. It was run on 60 minutes in mexico, and covered extensively only in the alternative press here, no big names picked it up. I've seen hours of different movies, truly amazing. and some of the tie ins with indian prophecy are amazing as well. Hope that last didn't throw you, keep an open mind, the events are happening, there is credible evidence well beyond any "reasonable doubt" criteria. Have fun!

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), February 15, 2000.

Oh, my aching chakras!

-- (ohno@mr.bill), February 15, 2000.